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View Full Version : Another scam in the name of environmentalism.


funfly
6th Dec 2014, 11:17
In Wales and Scotland it is mandatory for business to make a charge of 5p for all bags that are not reusable. This system will soon be required in England and some stores (e.g. Marks & Spencer) are already charging.

The idea is to reduce the quantity of plastic bags being used and there is evidence that this is working. However the law applies to all bags (with specific exceptions) for instance the paper bag that your take-away Mac. comes in is liable to a 5p change (as it already does in Wales and Scotland).

The law 'asks' but does not require, proceeds from the bags to be donated to a 'good cause' and many of the businesses claim to do this.

There is, of course, VAT on the sale of the bag so for every bag the government gets 1p. All in all that adds up to quite a sum - some 80M in additional VAT.

The request to the businesses is that they donate the 'proceeds' to good causes, note 'proceeds' not 'revenue'. Most claim to do this but there is real concern that, in addition to the VAT of 1p, business will deduct an 'admin' fee which could be up to 2p per bag plus the cost of the bag itself - the 'proceeds' may be as little as a couple of pence per bag. Whatever is deducted from the donation it is, of course, an additional source of income as the business would have had admin and bag costs anyway!

Thus the government and the multinationals are once again creaming it in the name of environmentalism.

mad_jock
6th Dec 2014, 11:34
I don't care they could split it 50/50 with the government and nothing going to good causes. Which will no doubt cream their admin fee and salary's off the top so the end results is bugger all.

The fact is since its started, the publics habits have changed. A lot do now use the reusable bags. People don't take 6 bags and put 6 items in each when they could have used 2 bags.

And those of use that still do use them don't buy any bin bags as we just use them and they are pretty good for putting a knot in the handles.

G-CPTN
6th Dec 2014, 11:46
I have used the lightweight plastic shopping-bags as receptacles for my garbage (and recycling cans and bottles) for some considerable time now.

I would consider 5p each to be an excessive and unreasonable charge.

No way does this reflect the actual cost - and including paper degradable ones is a farce.

The plastic ones that my local supermarket supplies are bio-degradable anyway.

mad_jock
6th Dec 2014, 11:53
The charge isn't meant to mean anything.

Its just meant you to pay 90p and get one of the thick ones and take it with you when you go shopping.

In the main this is working and cutting down the number of bags used.

Windy Militant
6th Dec 2014, 12:07
Not withstanding the outrage of those who think this is yet another green scam, a few years ago we had some serious flooding near to where my mum lives and after the water receded the trees were festooned with bags.
I've noticed now when going back home to Wales a significant drop in bags lying at the side of the road which clearing up comes out of our council tax and also in the rivers which contributes to flooding by blocking grids and drains.
Farming friends have commented that they are having less problems with livestock eating the bags.
If you don't want the government and corporate business to make money on this it's an easy thing to carry a bag for life or even a modern version of a string bag in the car isn't it? :hmm:

Little cloud
6th Dec 2014, 12:15
I don't know if it's a co-ordinated effort but a few of my local shops have RNLI collection boxes where you're told to put your 5p. So presumably 100% to a good cause.

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Dec 2014, 14:31
The plastic ones that my local supermarket supplies are bio-degradable anyway.
A common myth, widely (and wrongly) believed.

What they are actually claiming is "under exactly the right conditions, which may or may not actually exist anywhere on earth, this will biodegrade ... eventually".

They are not actually claiming anything actually like, y'know, actually useful, such as "you can actually put this in your green bin because it will actually biodegrade when it goes through your actual local composting process". Because in many cases that would actually be a lie.

mad_jock
6th Dec 2014, 14:51
it makes a very noticeable improvement to the environment in Scotland as well.

I really like the idea of straight into the RNLI box. Same with pubs having them next to the bar for the shrapnel.

vulcanised
6th Dec 2014, 15:15
I have certainly (unfortunately) had some biodegradable ones.

Having put items away in a carrier bag to keep dust off them, I have picked them up a few years later only to find the bag dissolves into shreds as I pick it up.

mad_jock
6th Dec 2014, 15:26
it hasn't actually degraded them just broken them up.

Same thing with freezing plastic or leaving it in UV it becomes brittle and breaks into smaller pieces but doesn't actually turn into anything which nature can process and turn into something else.

Mechta
6th Dec 2014, 16:42
'Single use' is a bit of a misnomer for the white bags that Tesco have thankfully stopped using. Their name inferred that they might be suitable for at least one journey, although the smashed jars and bruised vegetables on the ground halfway across the car park proved otherwise.

funfly
6th Dec 2014, 16:42
I have found out that M&S contribute 1.5p per bag to 'good causes'.
I am totally in favour of the discouragement of plastic bags and see nothing wrong with charging as a way of encouraging you and me to do it.
As a side effect I don't have a problem with the government getting 1p per bag in VAT.
What I totally disagree with is that people like M&S are keeping 3.5p per bag for themselves.

mad_jock
6th Dec 2014, 16:54
which M&S bags are you talking about?

The clothes ones are good for over a month as a flight bag.

funfly
6th Dec 2014, 17:17
which M&S bags are you talking about?

The ones that your shopping goes into at the checkout after you remember that you have left your 'lifetime' bag in the car.

mad_jock
6th Dec 2014, 17:22
Easy just vote with your feet and buy your food somewhere else.

ExXB
6th Dec 2014, 17:28
So you are suggesting that M&S receive these bags free from the manufacturer?

What I totaly disagree with is people too lazy, or too arrogant, to actually use a reusable bag. If/when they do 'people like M&S will get absolutely nothing.

You might want to check your maths as well ...

OFSO
6th Dec 2014, 19:00
So now instead of getting a free plastic shopping bag which is recycled as a garbage bag, we now use an IKEA bag to carry the shopping home but have to buy plastic garbage bags. The end result is exactly the same number of plastic bags used per week.

Why didn't the politicians who banned free plastic bags think this one through ?

(Oh sorry, obvious really).

Windy Militant
6th Dec 2014, 19:03
Mea culpa. I usually forget to take the bag(s) from the car boot

When they started charging for bags in Wales I bought the two SILs a little key ring pack a mac type bag. I thought it would be just a throwaway novelty to go with the usual Christmas stuff one buys. Surprisingly both still going strong and in regular use because they're not left at home or in the car! ;)

Blimey OFSO you must buy a shed load of stuff every week if you need that many bags to hoi it out!

Mariner9
6th Dec 2014, 19:22
And meanwhile, politicians say my toothpaste, after shave etc are deadly terrorist weapons for downing aircraft unless they are in plastic bags :rolleyes:

G-CPTN
6th Dec 2014, 19:24
if you need that many bags to hoi it out!

I am amazed at the volume of waste generated by people - filling a large wheelie bin (admittedly, fortnightly - therefore needing to be 'bagged' to avoid becoming foul).

Fareastdriver
6th Dec 2014, 19:42
In the States. ie, Los Angeles, the garbage bins have compactors. You have a thick plastic bag inside and when it starts filling up a bit you turn on the compactor that reduces the size of the contents.

Then the refuse truck comes around manned by very strong Mexicans.

funfly
6th Dec 2014, 23:13
If I want to make 1+1.5+3.5=5 to make a point then I will do it.
Practicing for a career as a UKIP politician :D

FF

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Dec 2014, 23:34
I am amazed at the volume of waste generated by people - filling a large wheelie bin (admittedly, fortnightly
I'm beginning to think it might mostly be the kids, not us - now that they're all away most of the time the wheelie bin for residual waste only has a little in the bottom by the end of the fortnight. (There's rather more in the recycling bin, but still not a vast amount.)

ExXB
7th Dec 2014, 08:33
How much of your waste is packaging? Now that needs to be addressed. Why can't they put the pretty pictures on the shelf and let you take the product away in an unlabelled, biodegradable (ya, right) pack.

Yes, we recycle the paper and cardboard (but not the plastic), but it's a lot greener if you never get it in the first place. Just think if M&S could save 3.5p on every package!

Capetonian
7th Dec 2014, 10:13
In South Africa so many hedgerows, powerlines, and fences were clogged with plastic supermarket packets that flapped in the wind that they become known as the 'national bird'.

When the supermarkets had to start charging for them by law, there was a noticeable decrease, and today I think they cost 50c., but most people have their own fabric bags now and there is less of a problem. I don't think it's a scam at all.

Scam on the other hand is making people buy water in plastic bottles when the stuff that comes out of the taps is better and doesn't entail the production, transport, and disposal of plastic bottles.



http://scenicsouth.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/ecape.jpg

charliegolf
7th Dec 2014, 11:06
Agreed Cape. The exchequer doesn't get much vat on plastic bags from me, though I occasionally forget to take one. If I do, I buy a 10p bag for life (which Tesco assume I'll chuck when broken) and make 'em replace it when it breaks!

And in Wales where it's embedded, it is nice to note the reduction in numbers of bags in hedges, fences etc.

CG

Laarbruch72
7th Dec 2014, 12:58
meanwhile, politicians say my toothpaste, after shave etc are deadly terrorist weapons for downing aircraft unless they are in plastic bags

You're not too well informed on explosive trace sampling are you?

Solid Rust Twotter
7th Dec 2014, 17:51
The national flower of Bots was once described as being a Checkers bag stuck in a barbed wire fence.


You're not too well informed on explosive trace sampling are you?


And the jobsworth standing picking his nose behind the X-ray device is...?

Laarbruch72
7th Dec 2014, 20:02
He doesn't really need to does he? The scientists at DSTL and the like work out the technical side of how to efficiently sample using the equipment they helped design, and the "jobsworths" merely have to follow a simple process designed by the scientists.

Back to bags, awful bloody things they are, it's really not difficult to take a reusable one with you.

Groundgripper
7th Dec 2014, 22:48
Many (15?) years ago Tesco and Sainsburys sold large plastic boxes and provided special trolleys for wheeling them round the store. At the checkout you just unloaded them onto the moving belt then re-loaded them as the items were scanned. Back to the car, boxes into the boot, and home. Very good idea. Obviously too good as the system was quite quickly abandoned.

I still use mine and it's even easier as these days you select each item, scan it with the hand-held scanner and put it into the box as you go round the store and then use the special checkout points to pay. You don't have to unload and re-load the boxes and it saves a lot of time and effort.

Capetonian, that sight is very common round here. You can tell when you are getting near Blackpool because the amount of roadside litter increases exponentially. Going to Tesco some months ago we observed one member of the local intelligentsia - i.e. IQ almost as high as (UK) shoe size - wandering away from the store, extracting a pie from his plastic bag and then just letting go of the bag to allow the wind to take it away while he concentrated on his eating his breakfast.:ugh::ugh:

GG

bosnich71
8th Dec 2014, 00:41
Mr. Ottmar Edenhofer of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research,( co chair of the IPPC Working Group 111), said in 2009, "Climate change has almost nothing to do with environmental protection" and "We distribute, de facto, the world's wealth by climate policy".
I wouldn't be too worried about a couple of pence on a plastic bag if I were you.

mad_jock
8th Dec 2014, 08:34
Honestly the number of placy bags even in the middle of the highlands is much reduced compared to before.

The amount seen on beaches is reduced as well.

I wouldn't have a problem if they put them up to 15p.

Or for that matter putting 15p on a plastic bottle and having compactor stations in every supermarket where you get a bar code back to spend on shopping like many other country's in Europe.

it has the benefit as well that there is a industry started people collecting the bottles to get the money back on them.

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Dec 2014, 09:35
it has the benefit as well that there is a industry started people collecting the bottles to get the money back on them.
In some parts of the world people collect used water bottles in order to put tap water (or maybe ditch water, who knows) in them and sell them to the tourists as if they were clean bottled water.

Capetonian
8th Dec 2014, 10:13
When travelling on the Indian sub-continent, where tap water is generally not safe, thus there is a need for bottled water, I was told to only buy from proper shops, sealed bottle, and then to crush the bottle after use to prevent it being refilled with GKW!

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Dec 2014, 12:37
Sealed bottle doesn't help you, that's what the re-sealing machines are for, hence the advice to crush.

Wyler
8th Dec 2014, 12:38
Moderately intelligent people buy bags 'for life'.
Stupid people pay for plastic ones every time they go shopping.

Seems fair to me.

mad_jock
8th Dec 2014, 15:43
Its hardly an issue with dodgy bottled water in any country you can drink it out the tap in.

Must admit at home its a bit weird not having to go to the crushing station with them. Most of the time I donate the cash to the charity on the machine button.

flying apprentice
8th Dec 2014, 15:59
Fareastdriver

Then the refuse truck comes around manned by very strong Mexicans

When I was in LA the Mexicans didn't have to be that strong. The bins are placed kerbside and the truck pulls up next to the bin. Uses a mechanical claw to pick it up and dump the contents in its hopper.

funfly
8th Dec 2014, 15:59
Moderately intelligent people buy bags 'for life'.
Stupid people pay for plastic ones every time they go shopping.

I think you would be more accurate and sound less judgmental if you said;

Thrifty people buy bags 'for life'.
Less thrifty people pay for plastic ones every time they go shopping.

UniFoxOs
8th Dec 2014, 16:07
Mea culpa. I usually forget to take the bag(s) from the car boot

So push your trolley to the car and load the shopping into the bags in the boot.

Wyler
8th Dec 2014, 16:12
Funfly.

I'll stick with judgemental thanks.

G&T ice n slice
8th Dec 2014, 20:34
left wing pinko liberal commie tree-hugging whale-saving LGBT hand-wringing-apologist global warmista non-thinkers buy bags 'for life'.

Independent minded free people pay a tiny pittance for plastic ones every time they go shopping on the basis that doing this is an easy way to register a protest (and really annoy the greenies)

radeng
8th Dec 2014, 21:24
Alternatively, the free cloth 'give away' bags from some of the wife's now obsolete courses can be used and re-used for nothing.....Although the very nice bag from the Durango and Silverton Railroad is getting so worn that I will make another trip on them in September. The United States at its best!

charliegolf
8th Dec 2014, 22:50
doing this is an easy way to register a protest

Newsflash! Tremors registered at Quicksave- 0.00000000000000001 on the Richter Scale. National Guard given the day off. Tsunami not expected.

CG

Solid Rust Twotter
9th Dec 2014, 04:38
Newsflash! Tremors registered at Quicksave- 0.00000000000000001 on the Richter Scale. National Guard given the day off. Tsunami not expected.


Meh! It's worth it just to see the trendoid greenies melting down as if you'd walked out the shop with a half eaten baby panda on a stick. The ultimate laugh is watching them flounce off to their designer mud (to show what outdoorsy types they are) encrusted 4x4s.

handsfree
9th Dec 2014, 08:37
A small problem with the bag for life

Bags for life could have E.coli - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/7863807/Bags-for-life-could-have-E.coli.html)

MagnusP
9th Dec 2014, 08:41
The watermelons must be crying in their herbal tea.

BBC News - Deadline due for wave power firm Pelamis offers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-30391102)

Another "green" initiative bites the dust.

G&T ice n slice
9th Dec 2014, 14:10
half eaten baby panda on a stick.

Hey.... where can you get baby panda on a stick? I've not seen our local take-aways selling that one.

There's obviously a pretty good niche market out there "Char-grilled endagered species to go"

Along with "Bambi-burgers"....

reynoldsno1
9th Dec 2014, 22:40
I sometimes use the self-checkout at the local supermarket. It asks me how many bags I want, and would charge me. I have to enter zero to continue. If I try to use my own bag it used to tell me there is an "unexpected item in the bagging area."
The menu changed a little while ago, and introduced the option of "Use Own Bag". I pressed it and the voice would then tell me there is an "unexpected item in the bagging area."
I now ensure that there is no "unexpected item in the bagging area." until I have completed the transaction entirely. I then start bagging and now I am told to "please remove your items". I take my time and ignore it, but am usually surrounded by 2 to 3 staff who are uncertain on what to do, as I am obviously not incapable of placing my selected items in my own bag. They continue to hover in the background until I actually pick up the bag and leave, whereupon I normally thank each of them for their assistance.
Such efficiency!

Capot
9th Dec 2014, 23:20
Reynoldsno1, just a tip;you can enhance the satisfaction gained from that process, as I do, by using plastic bags from another supermarket to place all your stuff in from the bagging area, after paying and being invited to remove your goods from the bagging area. As Henry Crun has discovered, you can get lots of these bags into an anorak pocket.

Gertrude the Wombat
10th Dec 2014, 00:08
Actually the vast reduction in the number of plastic carrier bags lying around the average home in recent years causes a certain amount of hassle to politicians (no bad thing, I'm sure you'll all say).

Those leaflets that come through your door - they have to get there somehow, and they're put there by deliverers. And where do the deliverers get them? - the "wholesaler" trundles round the ward dropping off leaflet bundles with deliverers.

Now if there's one thing you learn very quickly as a politician, it's that most people are out most of the time, and this includes deliverers. So normally you have to leave the bundle of leaflets on the doorstep. Which, given our weather, means wrapping them up in something ... which something used to be a plastic carrier bag, but can't quite so easily be any more, as houses no longer have hundreds of the things lying around, so it's not easy to put your hands on 20 or 30 each time a leaflet is printed.

Krystal n chips
10th Dec 2014, 07:04
" by using plastic bags from another supermarket to place all your stuff in "

You missed out the other variation here.....go shopping at those terribly disgusting outlets such as Aldi, / Lidl....emerge en- route to expensive car / tank etc....with shopping in a Harrods / M & S bag...can't have the neighbours thinking we are impoverished after all....appearances are everything as we know.

charliegolf
10th Dec 2014, 10:18
You missed out the other variation here.....go shopping at those terribly disgusting outlets such as Aldi, / Lidl....emerge en- route to expensive car / tank etc....with shopping in a Harrods / M & S bag...can't have the neighbours thinking we are impoverished after all....appearances are everything as we know.

Much better sport to be seen declining a Harrods bag because you have your handy Aldi bag-for-life in a convenient Roy Cropper-style anorak pocket!

On thread, people in Wales don't even notice it any more. Non issue cost/tax wise.

CG

Oh, and people who don't shop where the best value is are either rich, stupid, funded by Dad or all of the above.

maliyahsdad2
10th Dec 2014, 11:43
If plastic bags are banned what will inconsiderate dog walkers use to hang dog Sh!t from trees with?

Capetonian
10th Dec 2014, 11:46
I tend to go into the supermarket with a big old backpack and shove everything into that.

Windy Militant
10th Dec 2014, 11:48
On thread, people in Wales don't even notice it any more. Non issue cost/tax wise.

CG

Oh, and people who don't shop where the best value is are either rich, stupid, funded by Dad or all of the above.

Or haven't found out which CK's supermarkets make the Cream Black Forest Muffins!

I started using a bag for life because I had a house/car full of the disposable bags, and being a Cardi throwing anything useful away definitely goes against the grain! ;)