UK Union for Pilots

[chocsaway08]

As a potential cadet reading through these forums fills me with utter dread.

I have come from/still work in an industry which has a very strong union basis and has the workforce interests still at heart for the majority of the time.

This does not seem apparent in the aviation industry... Can anybody shed some light on this?

Why are the conditions so seemingly appalling with no intervention from a strong union? If this were put into place perhaps there would be bargaining power against companies that seem to keep offering an unfair deal.

[No Country Members]

Which industry are you in and why do you think your membership is stronger and presumably more militant?

[Aluminium shuffler]

It's very simple. There is no public support for pilots because the media keep printing articles based on nostalgic fantasy about what their terms and conditions are, so any industrial action would make pilots out as the bad guys. Meanwhile, airlines are run by petulant accountants with much jealousy of the image that pilots have and so make it an objective to bring them down a peg or two. Add the petty competitive nature of many pilots that prevents cohesion (my company/jet is better than yours, etc) and a weak main union that is only interested in your subscription but not in doing anything useful with it, and you have your recipe for a rapid decline.

[MonarchOrBust]

A very difficult subject to answer. It boils down to some of these facts:

- BALPA, the biggest pilot union in the UK is, historically speaking, a union that has always been more concerned with protecting the interests of long term BA pilots because, quite simply, BA pilots make up for the largest member count

- The Company Council (CC) model which is the representation model of choice within BALPA is not fit for the 21st century and works a bit like our so-called democracy where we choose local MPs who get to choose a PM who decides on an agenda nobody can vote for except his friends who are likely to agree with him anyway. The CC members invariably end up taking the role to gain management experience bringing no overall good to the system once they have departed.

- BALPA can only act on issues raised by a CC which affects employees at their particular airline. There is no concept of a collective look at things (I’m aware collective bargaining is illegal but this is not bargaining) in order to determine disturbing trends within the industry overall (maybe only in the last year or two – too late)

- BALPA have been way to slow to condemn airlines practices such as zero hour contracts and hiring cheap cadet labour when the market is full of suitable, qualified pilots. Some may argue, it’s not their place to but this single act has resulted in a supply vs demand situation that now gives airlines the upper hand when dictating terms and conditions. If a cadet can do it for half the cost, with no permanent base assignment, a 40 year old, with a mortgage to pay and kids to school can do the same …is what bean counters all over now think as a result.

- The recession and the fact that most airlines operate on profit margins of less than 5% means profit swings are huge. And just like oil prices, when the price of crude goes up, we suffer at the pumps instantly, but when it goes down (airline profits go up) we almost never share the booty.

- Finally, the UK CAA, our regulator, regulates those who pay it to be regulated unlike the FAA which in addition to being funded by those who use its services also receive massive funding by the government thereby ensuring there is never a conflict of interest.

The commercial interests of airlines (safety goes without saying) are therefore far more important than pilot careers. If you are working in the rail industry you will see that you generally belong to organisations which have a huge and substantial workforce. It’s also likely that your company can never be allowed to go bust because public services are at stake. Not the same with airlines.

[JaxofMarlow]

Two great answers above cover most issues.

Need to add in preponderance of overseas registered airlines that actively discourage/ban union membership - Ryanair.

Low Cost airlines love cadets because they cost sod all. They pay for their own training and will then work for peanuts on a zero hours contract. Displaced experienced pilots (XL/Viking/FlyBe/ThomasCook/Monarch/SilverJet/Many more) struggle to get a seat in remaining airlines unless they are prepared to have terms raped to unaffordable levels. They then have to drag their families to the middle east or worse where the money is fine but that is about all.

[Smokie]

Three brilliant posts which hit the nail right on the head :ok:

[Enzo999]

The supply of pilots far outstrips the demand in the UK. For everyone one job going there are hundreds of equally matched qualified applicants. Airline bosses use this as a weapon to reduce terms and conditions and will continue to do so.

The trouble is the young people coming into the industry having been sold the "dream" by CTC or OAA who will basically accept anything that is on offer, even work for free or pay to work all on the basis that it will be stepping stone to something better, unfortunaly nothing better exists. The sad truth is, that at the point at which you leave flight school is the most employable you will ever be. And you will always have to look over your shoulder because there is a never ending stream of people prepared and qualified to do your job for a fraction of the cost.

I have been flying for 10 years, worked for several major UK travel companies and my salary is lower now that it was 10 years ago. I long ago came to the conclusion that this industry will only go in one direction until the flight schools are stopped from flooding the market with fresh young meat.

Why so many people want to get in to this industry frankly baffles me but I would guess articles in the Daily Mail claiming pilots to be the highest paid profession in the UK probably is the main reason. (CTC must have been rubbing their hands together when that was published)

[Superpilot]

Daily Mail claiming pilots to be the highest paid profession in the UK probably is the main reason. (CTC must have been rubbing their hands together when that was published)

...in some countries we call that collusion but in this country it's just shoddy journalism. Amazing that.

[pakythepilot]

As many ppruners have already said, one side of the problem is the business build up by those factory schools, to name a few CTC and OAA. Their business model is simple. They make agreements with companies where they offer simulator time and workforce at half of the price and airlines are forced to hire only their students. Simple as that. In this way airlines can get cheaper simulator and training, while these flight schools can assure them-self a constant flow of people willing to pay for their really expensive products just because they can actually offer employment at the end. Everybody earn money and win except us. They should stop these flight schools and get back to the old days where pilots use to earn their way to the right hand seat working hard and gaining experience doing ****ty flying jobs, then you will see who really wants to do this job because he/she loves it or just because mom and dad have the money to buy a glamours career to his/her son/daughter. Do you pretend that those people will fight for their T&C? No way! People who have sweat and worked hard to get there will!

[Ancient Observer]

Another angle for the OP......

A TU can only act in defence of its members interests when the members themselves vote for the action. In the end, it is all about POWER.

If the members in, say, Monarch, have a dispute, only Monarch members affected can take any action. If, say, BALPA threatenned action by, say, BA pilots, about a Monarch dispute, the employers would be in Court sharpish, and would win.

In short, collective action is extremely limited in the UK by law. Law that has been endorsed by ALL the political parties.

Anyway, collective action in Aviation is not normally supported by the staff impacted - look at the BA CC dispute. A few hotheads, who backed down and lost due to a lack of support by BA CC, and due to other parts of the same TU - Unite - telling them to shut up and give up.

[maxed-out]

Spoken like a true CTC graduate who went straight into RHS of an A320 and is now jaded at the age of 20-35. Shame eh john smith

[NigelOnDraft]

As a potential cadet reading through these forums fills me with utter dread.

I have come from/still work in an industry which has a very strong union basis and has the workforce interests still at heart for the majority of the time.

This does not seem apparent in the aviation industry... Can anybody shed some light on this? To be harsh, and as above, it is because someone like yourself, who understands more than most how industry / unions can work, is prepared to compound the problem as a "potential cadet" i.e. despite you seeing the issues of oversupply, you are happy to add to the problem?

I cannot easily see how even an effective union could resist the consequences of such oversupply, and willingness to "pay to fly".

[maxed-out]

Good luck to you then.

[Three Lions]

The industry needs to scrabble its way back up to drag the lower echelon operators up to where the Thomsons the Thomas Cooks are, and until recently the Monarchs of this world were

Regulation and strong union representation are the only answers to the advantage the locos have over the decent operators. Which causes the situation whereby the locos attempt to consume all before them. Partially due the inappropriate use of cadet labour For sure Monarch are the latest big name to succumb to this effect

An added bonus would also be a fair entry mix of cadet/experienced/ex mil giving some sort of career path for a whole range of people.

With regulation and strong Unions then everything else will fall into place naturally.

The current set up, to my mind is quite obscene.

And an added point ive monitored this board for a long time now and suspect agents acting on behalf of the big schools - who appear to have an unhealthy and damaging market share or recruitment to bottom echelon jobs on the jet fleets - are in amongst the posters in here.

A closing point for consideration. After hitting the line at ezy via ctc in your mid 20s when the fatigue starts to set in and the debt is still a ling way off been paid off.... How do you see you will move on to pastures new with better conditions and terms when the "majority" of recruitment is cadet only. And your experience counts against you.

This is the reality of the situation. You have been warned.

[Superpilot]

Yup. In Europe at least, this is now a career where ones experience counts towards ones unemployability. In most industries you can leave a job with years of experience behind you for one that pays better. In this one you can expect a salary drop of £20-40k earning the same as someone 20 years younger. I've said it all along, ageism is still practiced by airlines and it happens in the form of hiring and recruitment practices which favour the young. As long as that happens this cannot be a sustainable career for someone. The illusion that it is comes about by getting a job with an airline that you want to work for forever and the list of those can be counted on half a hand.

[Jumpjim]

I bet your colleagues just LOVE flying with you John Smith.... How depressing....

For the OP, have a look at the BA cadet scheme. I'm 20 years in with BA, love my job, thoroughly enjoy flying with a group of motivated, enthusiastic people, and enjoy the route and type opportunities that are available in the company.

There are aspects of flying with BA that aren't great but overall the "package" is fantastic.

Just to add a contrary viewpoint to the dismal posts above...

[RHS]

John Smith, I have a major problem with the idea we are massively overpaid. I was told by someone far wiser than myself that increased pay is a result of increased responsibility. We as Airline Pilots do not earn top wages necessarily for the skills we have, because as has been shown, most moderately intelligent people can operate an Airbus or Boeing when it's all hunky dory. Admittedly to varying levels of competence. We are paid because we are responsible for a couple if hundred lives, a couple of hundred million dollars worth of aircraft, and potentially billions of dollars worth of litigation, and when it all goes a bit wrong, bad weather, broken aircraft, that responsibility, that was always there, comes to the fore.

Unless you fly for BA or one of the major carriers, chances are your company would not survive a major hull loss that could be attributed to pilot error. So it baffles me why we consistently look to place the lowest level of experience at the lowest possible price into the cockpit.

The other often overlooked point is experience. The experienced skippers know when to ask for that shortcut, likely patterns of ATC, how best to avoid weather, when to go when not to go. They are generally just more efficient. And that's my viewpoint looking on at them as a reasonably inexperienced guy. The good ones, are in my opinion worth their weight in gold (or should be) to the airline because they just seem to make the whole operation run more smoothly, and yet we actively drive them away?

We can only up our T&C's if we stop being so self depreciating, and realise we are highly skilled professionals, with bags of responsibility. I also agree with all of the points about OAA/CTC pilot factories creating a massive oversupply. IMHO BALPA needs to start taking more of a front role on these issues, in addition to their work on Safety and other political lobbying. Too often I feel as if my union is more interested in protecting me from lasers, than they are an accountants pen.

[wiggy]

IMHO BALPA needs to start taking more of a front role on these issues,


Which begs the question (yet again): Given the state of UK Industrial Relations Legislation how do they do that?

AO as usual hit the nail on the head a few posts back.

[X-Centric]

Chocsaway 08, why oh why would you want to join this industry? I'd love to know just for my own personal knowledge. The average profit margin for all of the western world's airlines in 2012/13 was 2%: there is no money left in this occupation for the (currently) necessary evil called 'The Pilot.' I'm in the unusual position of agreeing with every post here. John_Smith, I'm also looking at a three year plan to bail out, I've had it & the good times ain't ever coming back.

[clunk1001]

the media keep printing articles based on nostalgic fantasy

No – it is FACT, from the Office of National Statistics. Same as last year. Pilots are the highest paid (based on PAYE).

...of course, those who do earn substantially more than you, just dont pay as much PAYE as you ;-)

We are paid because we are responsible for a couple if hundred lives, a couple
of hundred million dollars worth of aircraft

Your are overpaid for the responsibility – look at Cruise Liner captains who are responsible for over 1000 lives and are paid a fraction of a BA captains salary.


Wise words from John_Smith. Good luck with your escape plan.

[Sleeve Wing]

Funny but all the same old stuff being dragged up again.

Our problem has always been that most of us love what we do, except js who shouldn't really be in the business anyway.
Yes, we love it, we're good at it and we would, initially I admit, do it for nothing.

Then reality kicks in and, like the rest of humanity, we have to earn a crust to keep our families. Responsibilities cost and, added to that, the extra cost of being away from our familiies, both emotionally and financially.

I mustn't forget either, in this world of sunshine and elation, that nowadays the provision of aircraft that are more up to the job, fewer major failures and world class maintenance in UK make the job more easy, less stressful and safer than it has ever been.

So we end up being well paid (for the moment) with less responsibilities than a couple of decades ago and the company attitudes that "anyone can do it" so we could pay 'em less. Maybe Pilot's Assistants, instead of FOs, should be reintroduced…………...

Funny that - once upon a time we needed a captain, copilot, flight engineer, navigator and radio operator. Now it's two guys and a couple of autopilots (oh, and lots more fuel if you need it !)
Where else can we cut the corners before someone realises exactly what is required of us when it all turns to worms ? Yes, RHS, another hull loss would certainly sharpen the mind.

And the reasons were, m'lud………… !

[wiggy]

So we end up being well paid (for the moment) with less responsibilities than a couple of decades ago

I think I know what you're getting at, but I'm not sure that statement is at all true, I suspect the commander's responsibilities under the ANO haven't changed that much over the years/decades. One thing's for certain - as sure as night follows day that if you bend metal ( or worse) the law will come looking for answer from the commander, not the fancy automation or the CEO/CFO.

[fwjc]

I wish I was well paid!

I wonder what the actual pay distribution is amongst qualified pilots in the UK, just to compare against the articles in the newspapers.

Right now I'm on the cusp of leaving commercial aviation to go back to my previous career because I just can't afford to pay the mortgage, training debt and living costs on the salaries I can get.

[adolf hucker]

As John Smith correctly says, the general reduction to pilot T & Cs is an overdue correction. He probably won't win any popularity contests on here for saying it but that does not make him wrong.

For several decades pilots in legacy carriers were able to draw large salaries for flying 600 hours a year and then retire at 55 on £60k+ a year and good luck to them. But that lucky situation was neither 'deserved' nor sustainable if flying for the masses was to become affordable.

As has been pointed out, there is no shortage of reasonably co-ordinated people who are able to self-finance an 18 month course in order to have what appears to be an easy and 'glamorous' career. There are rather fewer who have the academic ability or commitment to undertake a highly-selective medical or law degree.

The argument about responsibility vs reward tends to be rather overstated. I am fairly happy to travel on a bus or drive next to a 50 tonne truck even though the driver may be on £10 an hour. Occasionally there is a lapse or negligence and passengers get damaged but no one seems to suggest that paying the offending driver more would have averted the tragedy.

Unlike John Smith, I still enjoy aspects of the job and have managed to find employment which is minimally detrimental to my health, sanity or family life. I recognise the job for what it is - a generally routine and prescriptive set of tasks with a good view and not a constant and heroic battle against the elements which only the very gifted are able to undertake. More importantly, I understand that my terms and conditions are not determined by any perception of what a pilot 'deserves' but by the ability of me and my colleagues to act in unison to reject any downward trend. Unfortunately, a significant number either fail to grasp that notion, are already resigned their fate or simply don't give a toss about it.

It really is about supply and demand. There are still high paying jobs out there but the pay is not necessarily related to the difficulty of the job but rather to the reluctance of first world pilots to relocate to Asia or the Middle East. If we were all willing to work and live in those environments, the pay would decrease accordingly.

In short, it's no good whining about the loss of the good old days - that game is up. The choices now are to fight to protect what you have or take a chance that you and your family can tolerate working somewhere you wouldn't necessarily want to be. Or you could just do something else.

[A and C]

I very much like my airline job but would recomend that anyone leaving school or university steer well clear of the industry.

The big flying schools ( and we all know who they are ) grabbed the opportunity of helping steer the EASA regulation bandwagon towards approved schools that offer courses that fit the airlines perfectly simply because they get an employee who is up to his eyeballs in debt and has to work under any conditions offered to service that debt. Of course by the time reality has struck the poor young hopefuls the school has long ago cashed the cheque. In short UK flying training is a corupt Union between the big schools and the airlines to enable the airlines to get staff at the lowest price who are going to be so far in hoc that they are effectively prisoners to the airline.

Of course this squeezes out any one who wants to try get into the industry using a part time flying course from a small flying school.

At one time you could get into the industry using by getting together 700 hours of flying and passing the exams, this got you an fATPL and you found yourself a job. The airline then did your type rating and you got bonded for two years so the airline could recover the cost of training you.

The big schools identified the opportunity and steered the then Under construction EASA and ( still ) inept to install a set of regulations that supported their business plan, extinguished the opposition and made slaves of their students but assured the airlines would support the plan by sighting quality of trainning issues.
Just for the record I have seen very little difference in the standard of flying by the time they reach an airliner but if I was to be asked who was the most rounded aviator and who had the best understanding of the whole business picture the guys who did not attend a big school or do an approved course win each time.

The bottom line is if you are bright enough to fly an airliner go and train for another job, one that will earn you enough money............. if you still want to fly go and do it for fun.

[silverknapper]

The industry needs to scrabble its way back up to drag the lower echelon operators up to where the Thomsons the Thomas Cooks are, and until recently the Monarchs of this world were


Don't know anything about Thomas Cook. But anyone who saw the recent Ts&Cs on offer from Thomson knows you're talking rubbish.

[Three Lions]

Good point SK.

So the million dollar question is....

So why would a company of the stature of Thomsons start making derisory ts and c offers.

Is it because they have their peoples best interests at heart?

Or is it that they have to act this way to survive otherwise they will be the next decent operator to be reduced to loco status or even put out of service by not been able to compete with the locos? Ala Monarch.

I stand corrected on the Thomsons point, should your information be accurate -I accept I was talking rubbish, thanks for the heads up. That is actually more bad news that I wasnt aware of. With the recent Monarch changetoo, it does actually reinforce the point I was trying to make.

[wiggy]

OK, we don't seem to be able to halt the slide in T&Cs due to the combination of UK/EU industrial law and the willingness of too many people to believe the spin the FTOs put out...

So back to the OP's question...:cool:

I have come from/still work in an industry which has a very strong union basis and has the workforce interests still at heart for the majority of the time.

This does not seem apparent in the aviation industry... Can anybody shed some light on this?



Personally I've found my union very good at dealing any individual issues I've had, and generally OK at a company level (though many disagree). Where I do feel they really do fall down is at a strategic, national level where they don't appear to have any clout. One example being the way aircrew are still handled when going through security ex the UK, compared with the treatment in the likes of the States.

If I recall things correctly following one of the security scares a while back the UK Musician's Union got a sweetheart deal for it's members on hand baggage ( extra allowance, "tools of the trade") whereas everybody else, including crew was being messed around left right and centre TFN and beyond.....and it's still liquids, gels, iPads, and laptops out........

[A and C]

You are so correct its high time all of us at Gatwick downed tools for a day to stop the excesses of the little hitlers who are crusing around the ramp imposing fines on people for not having Hi vis vests done up at the front ....... then when you secure the thing in the approved manor they fine you 50 quid for having your ID obscured.

perhaps shutting the place down for a day would remind the managment just who's efforts earn the money.

[4468]

john_smith said:
Aviation exists in its own little bubble. What we have to realise is that we are still grossly overpaid for what we do. Salaries are being adjusted to reflect that.
"Grossly overpaid for what we do"?

On a day to day basis, it's difficult to disagree.

I once heard an older pilot explaining his job to a passenger. He said:

"I don't get paid for what I do. I get paid for what I CAN do."

Passengers think these machines run on rails. It's in nobody's interest to enlighten them. Monkies can indeed stick the autopilot in, but that's not the only thing between a landing and a disaster!

Argue the poor pay on the basis of supply and demand, or even on Margaret Thatcher's Union reforms. But don't be so ignorant to suggest this job is always a breeze! It's not. Unlike the medical profession, we have simply had to develop meticulous processes in an attempt to reduce the risks, because when a mistake happens, we can kill very many, not just one!

I'm not for a moment suggesting we're all Chesley Sullenberger, but he did have a very interesting thing to say after the Miracle of the Hudson. It was something like this:

"Throughout my flying career, I've been making small deposits in the bank of experience. Today I was required to make a very large withdrawal!"

Ask those passengers whether they think pilots should be paid decent money. Luckily for them, you'll be able to hear their answer!

[Superpilot]

I also agree with all of the points about OAA/CTC pilot factories creating a massive oversupply. IMHO BALPA needs to start taking more of a front role on these issues, in addition to their work on Safety and other political lobbying.


Which begs the question (yet again): Given the state of UK Industrial Relations Legislation how do they do that?

They could start of by playing the "it's a monopoly" card. I've always had an issue with the "It's their train set" argument. Ethics must surely come into it. The big schools and airlines have colluded to increase training costs and create an indebted slave pilot population without any regard for those who want to avoid high cost and debt. Sustainability, i.e. better chances of employment for those who have been through the very system, instead of those who are going through the system (as we see today) should be a key factor in addressing this insanity.

Furthermore, actually doing something about it may not be the point. Simply raising the concern and publishing it on the damn campaign page (http://www.balpa.org/Campaigns.aspx) in order to get publicity on the issue might help contain the problem! But look at the kinds of people who are on the company councils. A sizeable number have links and/or dealings with the big schools. It would really be a case of pissing in ones own tea cup.

[wiggy]

SP

You're not wrong, but the problem is the public only "care" about cartels if it's costing them money...you'll always get protests over supermarkets and/or the fuel companies acting as such. OTOH BALPA can scream about FTOs and cartels from the roof tops but I doubt the public will give a fig about what they will perceive as some "rich" kids volunteering to pay over the odds for a "pilots's licence".

But look at the kinds of people who are on the company councils. A sizable number have links and/or dealings with the big schools

It's not just at the top of BALPA, it seems one or two of the more recent FTO alumni who are also BALPA members have been helping out on the FTO's stand at some of the "pilot shows/fairs" in return for expenses (only - fuel and food)........it looks like some of the newbies have become conditioned to helping line the pockets of those at the top, though I suppose at least in this case they're actually getting some money from the FTO...

[Lawro]

I am a supporter of Unions however , as Balpa will tell you they're not a Union they're an association , a very expensive one ...

They have let this industry down for decades & continue to do so taking credit for the work of real Unions like Unite with the holiday pay etc.

Balpa do next to nothing for the pilot workforce ensuring individual crew councils are populated with pseudo managers looking after terms & conditions to suit themselves leaving the general workforce in the dark as they negotiate elusive lifestyle options whilst gorging on expense bought working lunches & claiming lots of expenses , spending many office days doing FA apart from telling everyone what a burden it is to be a rep !

[wiggy]

taking credit for the work of real Unions like Unite with the holiday pay etc.

:confused: Putting it politely: Are you sure you've got that the right way round???

BA due back in court over pilots' holiday pay | Reuters (http://fr.reuters.com/article/idUKLDE61M1S020100224)

and ( yes, I know it's wiki but it's as good a link as any on the case.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_plc_v_Williams

[Aluminium shuffler]

It's amazing the stupidity displayed in a few arguments on here.

First, John's assertion that someone's motivation in why to be a pilot is irrelevant. Wrong - there is a certain demographic from one country with a bad CRM reputation that largely do it because in their home country, being a pilot is still very prestigious. In other words, they do it out of arrogance. A pilot that is motivated by love for flying is likely to learn better, fly better and try harder because they want to be the best they can, rather than just good enough to scrape through, and will have a far better attitude to the rest of the crew.

Second, the view that salary cuts are a return to normality and that arguments about levels of responsibility, with comparison to train or bus drivers who also control a heavy vehicle with many passengers, is ridiculous - they operate in a two dimensional environment with limited weather effects or other variables in a context where they can stop when things go awry; as pilots we operate in a four dimensional environment with no pause button and a damned sight more variables and complexities. Good luck with the crash rate if you want to let the average bus driver loose at the controls of an airliner.

Clearly arguments made by manager types with a hatred of pilots.

[Thad Jarvis]

BALPA are what you want them to be. It appears that those wishing to concentrate on the 'association' status are more from the legacy stable while the 'trade union' angle stems more from the loco operations. Everyone of course want the trade union when the pay comes up for negotiation!
It doesn't really matter. What does matter is how it serves it's membership. That starts at Rep level and runs up through CC's to the NEC. I know of no senior Reps pandering to the whims of FTOs...more the opposite in fact. There is a new leadership team in place who are keen to progress and unify the whole operation. I'm sure they'd be open to constructive feedback.

[4468]

BALPA are what you want them to be.
I'm afraid I beg to differ to an extent.

BALPA are simply US! WE are BALPA. WE get what WE deserve!

Sadly, many of us are far too stupid/ignorant/selfish to realise that!

Which is precisely why we are where we are today!

[Thad Jarvis]

Different way of saying the same thing :)

[adolf hucker]

Aluminium Shuffler,

Nope, I'm definitely not a manager - just not quite as impressed with myself as you seem to be with yourself. Must be great being a Grand Master of 4 dimensional aviation.

I don't deny the job has its challenging moments but let's be honest eh? If it really was that difficult, then airlines would be having to compete to secure the services of rare talent. As it is, any self-selecting and self-financing individual is able to acquire 10,000 hours of experience in about 12 years.

Your intimation that our special skills make us worthy of great reward is somewhat naive and a distraction from the actual situation. The only thing which will protect our conditions is if we stop acting like gifted and self-interested prima-donnas and start acting like a cohesive group of professionals.

[4468]

Adolf

There are ways in which I can agree with you.

It's not any special skill/ability/responsibility that we may (or may not!) have, that are sufficient on their own to simply demand suitable reward.

Only industrial muscle can protect us. But we are (collectively) too stupid/ignorant/uninterested to see that.

But that doesn't mean there aren't special qualities that mark out the best pilots! People able to preserve many lives in the face of diminishing resources/resourcing!

Train drivers (particularly TfL!) T&CS have not reduced noticeably. It's entirely right we ask why ours are falling off a cliff!

[Superpilot]

...and there's an interesting point. Train driver recruitment and hiring is a highly regulated business. Train operators do not sell "spare training capacity" to the highest bidder as a source of revenue or to "keep trainers busy" :rolleyes:. Most importantly of all they never train more candidates than what is needed to service the industry. Maybe that's because they realise that enlarging the pool of qualified and suitable train drivers increases competition for the same jobs. Something to aspire to for the current generation of pilots.

[Superpilot]

Just to add, there are those (I can feel their rage) that would say that the practices of airlines and big schools (aka integrated) doesn't result in an oversupply and on the contrary expansion, training and hiring are carefully linked and planned. Rather it's the hundreds of CPLs that are output by smaller modular schools that does that. The logic of this argument of course is that integrated training and the selection process which proceeds such training is designed to produce Airline Pilots whilst modular training is for pilots seeking careers as commercial pilots generally speaking. There is an elitest group out there that truly beleives this and many of them are BALPA careerists. Another reason why big schools are favoured by so many airlines?

[Dreamshiner]

Simple answers to the question:

We do an aspirational job, therefore people are willing to pay to get into the industry and advance within it.

Europe's major cities in real terms aren't that far apart and the public transport systems aren't too bad, resulting in a fraction of the need for general aviation as there is in the US, Australia and Africa. So less opportunities to serve an apprenticeship and build your career up.

Affluence and demographic of UK pilots would lean towards traditional Tory voters where there's an emphasis on the individual over the whole/collective.

BALPA CC's are effectively franchises, if BA management propose something pretty poor it's unlikely that Virgin, TCX, etc will opt for industrial action in solidarity. Unlike a lot of other industries.

The UK market is open to 27 or so EU members and many, many commonwealth citizens. A citizen of Germany who is a commercial pilot will know English to a decent level because English is the lingua franca of aviation. There's no way due to legislation to give British citizens a head start. No doubt similar situation as in the Premier League. That's not a criticism because we are generally lazy to our continental cousins when it comes to languages, however we are barred to a lot of markets unless we can speak the national lingo.

[Ancient Observer]

Balpa can only do what it's members allow it to do.

4468 is right.

If Balpa is not a strong Union, it is entirely down to its members.

The only strong union in the uk right now is the tube drivers Union. The rest are weak pussy cats.

[wiggy]

The only strong union in the uk right now is the tube drivers Union.

Can I ask AO, why do you think that's the case?

Monopoly on the skill set in the UK and working for an organisation that can't ship workers (and trains) in from elsewhere in the EU...plus the willingness to be serioulsy b***dy minded, right or wrong?

[SR71]

Surely the answer to the question is that, for all the bleating about the slide in T&C's, the reality is that people are still queuing up for the shot at a career in the industry because, over the long term, the numbers still stack up in favour of the gamble....

As for being grossly overpaid, UK pilots, legacy or otherwise, are pretty poorly recompensed compared with our major European counterparts.

Is the strength of French Unions in comparison to our own to be applauded or lamented? Discuss.

The argument, however, that, because the required skill set for being a pilot is so basic, one ought not to be paid much, doesn't really cut the mustard though. Have a look at the required skill set for a Stockbroker.

:E

That said, I think the wheels at BALPA are finally starting to slowly turn in this respect. One of the greatest threats to our career these days is the issue of cross-border employment that affects all of us, whichever airline we work for....

[tonker]

If the French organised a Union for all airport workers, i'd join it in a shot.

Give the directors a massive wage increase, whilst telling pilots and cabin crew things are tough so we'll see you next summer......errm no. No fuel, no catering, no ATC, no ATC etc etc

[wiggy]

BALPA CC's are effectively franchises, if BA management propose something pretty poor it's unlikely that Virgin, TCX, etc will opt for industrial action in solidarity. Unlike a lot of other industries.

Missed that comment earlier - AFAIK the lack of ability of pilots in, say Virgin, to come out on strike in solidarity with their "comrades" in TCX, BA or over CTC cadets, is not a consequence of BALPA's structure, franchise or otherwise, it's a consequence of the changes to UK industrial law brought in from 1980 onwards.

As I understand it you can only take industrial action over a dispute between you and your own employer...so even the mighty UNITE cannot legally call a nationwide/all airline cabin crew strike over the treatment of it's members at, say, BA...only those UNITE members working for BA can strike. It's the same across all UK industry, e.g. M&S staff in the shop workers union USDAW cannot strike in support of fellow USDAW members employed by, say, Tescos.

I think other's here have chapter and verse but certainly as JS has pointed out anyone involved in secondary/solidarity action in the UK can face severe consequences. For the very basic history see the UK entry here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_action


...and it seems to be getting worse as companies have become pan European, no I don't like the UK law on this as it stands, and no, I never did vote for her..........

[Three Lions]

Is on the money.

I also didnt vote for her either.

[wiggy]

Is the strength of French Unions in comparison to our own to be applauded or lamented? Discuss.

Having spent some time in France I'd say it depends ( and I'll start by mentioning that most of our local trains weren't running yesterday because of a strike, same next Monday )....

Good for the members so far, but at the cost of making them uncompetitive. But the workers are lucky that the French system, by virtue of language and the necessity of having French licences/qualifications for most jobs makes it very difficult for foreigners to work within France.

Bad for the increasing number of French workers in the private sector and who aren't in a Union. Private sector bosses these days are less and less indulgent of staff failing to turn up for work because the trains aren't running.

As for aviation specifically despite of the strength of Unions in Air France IMHO they are facing the same uphill battle against the non-unionised LoCos & the P2F brigade as all the other legacy carriers in Europe. As a result I get the impression the even the state established "flying training centres" such as ENAC in Toulouse stopped being a way into AF and instead became a French version of CTC a while ago. l think the best the AF unions can now do is try to ring fence the T&Cs of a dwindling number of legacy crew members..sound familiar?

I suspect there might be a "Thatcher" moment coming, possibly after the next presidential elections....that will be fun to watch....:eek:

[overstress]

train or bus drivers who also control a heavy vehicle with many passengers, is ridiculous - they operate in a two dimensional environment

Surely a train driver only has one variable to consider, haven't seen many trains with a steering wheel.

[bentley01]

What a complete load of rubbish stated by John Smith. Anyone who thinks using the automatics in a modern aircraft is all there is to flying is an idiot. No amount of sat letting the aircraft do all the flying will prevent another Air France disaster or any of the hull losses over the years which could of been prevented by a pilot being on board who has a level of flying skills that deserve a well paid salary. This comes from dedication, aptitude and a desire to remain at the top of ones game. The one night where it all goes wrong and the only thing preventing an accident is the time where people with J Smiths outlook and attitude are in trouble.