Buying a light twin

[Spamcan defender]

Hi folks, does anyone know of any decent, recent books or places containing good info regarding the purchase of light twin's??


I'm considering a purchase in around 24Mths time and would like to start thinking about all the pertinent issues and what to look for generally when buying aircraft.
I'd like to be in a place where I have a VERY good understanding of the subject prior to making a shortlist of possible airframe types. It would be my first purchase so any relevant generic advice would be useful too!!!



Spamcan

[UFO999]

Hi,
I have flown many, and the PA34 III is the best all around, fuel, 6 seats, performance, range and price.

Good luck.

[Spamcan defender]

LOL...750 views and no replies........

So no one can piont me in the direction of a decent book or website regarding aircraft purchase advice?

:confused::confused:

;)


Spamcan

[CL300]

ok, i bite.

you are too far away in your purchase of a light twin in order to have a reasonable answer. If you are already rated on MEP, go to speak to your instructor/flight-school/club / whatever.

Alernatively i think that even in your country you have bookstores and places selling magazines ? within 24 months ( that is 24 issues of flying magazines) you will be highly educated on the subject.

Please do not ask which magazines, at your age, i think you can find by yourself.

When you will be ready to buy a light- twin, then pm me, i will sell you one

[cavortingcheetah]

I've thought about this many times and never arrived at any conclusion whatsoever.
Thoughts that have occurred to me though are:

Would I buy a UK aircraft or, for example, a South African twin or one from Arizona where the climate is dry. What are the import implications.
Do I want to charter the machine.
If so then the configuration becomes important as in club seating and rear access.
There are minimum legal requirements as well.
Do you want radar and de ice or do you want a storm scope and anti ice.
Do you want long range tanks, high wing, low wing.
Where would you hangar the machine and who would maintain it?
Do you want to have fun flying it or is it a transporter.
Can you afford $1,000,000 and any payments and insurance costs?
There's loads more to query but yes, a short list of machines would be an excellent idea.
Personally, in England, I wouldn't have one. In the States though...well...that's a Pandora's box and in Africa..well you need weapons.

[glendalegoon]

WELL, YOU ASKED FOR IT> Read FLYING MAGAZINE...wait till you see articles on the PROS AND CONS of twins vs singles.

IT will open your eyes. IF YOU ARE A REALLY sharp pilot and READY, get a twin. IF you aren't so sharp, get a single.

FLYING a light twin is demanding on takeoff. Enroute a little less so, BUT it is easy to lose control if you are not sharp. THE most unexpected time to have problems is in the decent to the PATTERN (which you brits like to call the circuit). WHY? IF you lose an engine in the descent, you might not notice until you join the pattern and hold altitude, and then fall out of control.

HOW MUCH money do you have to spend? What are your pilot certification levels. DO you even have a multi engine rating? Can you fly a plane at all?


IF You plan 4 average sized adults, be sure to get a six seater like a piper seneca. the truth is you can never really fill up a twin with gas and people and luggage and get off the ground.

IF you plan two people, maybe a piper seminole will do.

IF you plan six or more, you might want to think of a turboprop like a kingair .


I've taught people to fly twins. And they are great, but if you are not sharp, give it up now.

IF you are just looking for pricing and things like that, check out TRADE A PLANE (if it is still published). And get something brand new.

AND get LOTS of good instruction in it, and maintain it well and if you have any money left, buy me a cup of coffee.

DO NOT BUY an MU2. Trust me. While I have earned my living flying them, they are too demanding for an average pilot.

AND if you are not already instrument rated ( usa kind) get your instrument rating first and be darn good!


So, go out and buy Flying Magzine, Trade a Plane and maybe AOPA pilot and dream.

Go out to the airport and go to a piper dealer and look around.

Go out to the airport and check out the cessnas and beachcraft.

And those dorky little composite jobs...well, don't make me laugh.

[PicMas]

DO NOT BUY an MU2. Trust me. While I have earned my living flying them, they are too demanding for an average pilot.

:) :D ;) :ok:

[Duchess_Driver]

Sorry to be harsh, but the old adage....

If it flys, floats or f**ks, it's cheaper to rent!

... is VERY true here.

An acquaintance of mine owns a PA34-III - Average hourly cost to run....? €950!

Not much these days that you can't do in a good single for half the money.

(and that's from a light-twin driver!)

DD

[PrivatePilotDA40NG]

Twin Piston are for training... Not for travel or leisure IMO..
Decent fast used SEP with FIKI can be bought for good prices. The internet is full of them.

The only option that would make sense in Europe is the DA42 (NG or VI)
It's diesel engines make it cruise as fast as a Cirrus on less total consumption. AVGAS is becoming harder to get in Europe.

If you are looking for a leisure aircraft,
Cessna is making the C182 JT-A diesel
Mooney will be selling the M10J diesel later on

If you want power and weather capability, look for used piper meridian, jetprop..


Buying a factory new AVGAS aircraft for europe is not interesting anymore I think. Future is diesel. Simple operation, low consumption, worldwide JETA1.

[Spamcan defender]

Thanks for the replies so far.......To put a little more meat on the bone....

I am currently SEP with Night/IMC. I have a plan of action to get my MEP/IR within the next 24 mths. I'd like to use this time to get VERY familiar with not only generic aircraft purchasing but the nuances of owning and operating a twin.

I'd be looking at doing reasonably regular continental trips to Europe with the wife and our friends. I'd need the capacity to seat 6. I'd also prefer (but not essential) FIKI and pressurisation for added flexibility. My local airfield has a nice long bit of tarmac which is suitable for light twinjets so I'm confident any piston twin could easily be catered for!!

The argument of single Vs twin is an interesting one but one thing keeps me focussed on twins........I imagine myself flying IMC and having an engine failure in a single. OK, not in itself a certain catastrophe but the potentially HUGE reduction in time to select a decent landing spot COULD be a factor in walking away or not. With wife, kids and friends on board the 'comfort' and reassurance of a backup engine is too compelling to ignore. Im sure many folks fly IMC in their single and have no issues but it gives me the willies thinking about failure scenarios. From reading accounts of some SEP owners, an engine failure (or significant engine trouble) is a high possibility and having trouble in a single doesn't give you many options.

My budget is around about £150-£200k and I'm drawn towards the older cabin-class Cessna twins TBH. Things like 303, 340, 414, 421. Something like this would fit the bill perfectly.


Just need a website or book to read up on the vagaries of aircraft purchase. I CANNOT believe there isn't a generic 'buying aircraft' buyers manual around there...


Spamcan

[Global Aviator]

With your budget all you will be doing is buying someone else's headache!

Look at controller or any aircraft websites, Google!

Look at operating costs...

A lot of money!

Cessna SIDS, etc.

Good luck but I'd look at private hire!

200,000 probably buy you upwards of 300 hours?

[PrivatePilotDA40NG]

You might think that your budget can get you a six seater twin piston...

Speak to someone that operates an aircraft like that in Europe..
The acquisition cost is only a small amount of what it will cost you to actually operate the aircraft..

If you want six seats, weather, FIKI.. look at turboprops
Jetprop, Meridian, C210P, TBM...

200K for a FIKI Six seater in Europe is not realistic...

[silverknapper]

DA40NG

Do you operate or own a turbo prop? If so you'll know the statement:

The acquisition cost is only a small amount of what it will cost you to actually operate the aircraft..


applies even more so to turboprops as it does to pistons. With pistons it's in the fuel costs. But buy well and the maintenance should be manageable. With turboprops the maintenance will hurt. Not to mention the cost of acquisition. You state that "avgas is becoming harder to get in Europe". It isn't really so far. Unless you're heading to the back of beyond. It's scarce in the Middle East but I'm assuming the OP doesn't wish to venture this far.

Spamcan I won't try and talk you into a single. You're doing the right thing in researching, there are so many pitfalls.

You mention Cessna cabin class twins. The limited experience I've had of these through other people are that they are expensive to own. A good survey is essential to ascertain what SB's are outstanding etc. Also as they are out of production for so long you may struggle long term with part costs. I'd avoid geared engine variants too.

At that money I'd be in a standard 58 Baron. Rock solid, no big gotchas that I know of, still in production etc etc. 6 seats, though from memory you're only going 200nm or so with adults in all 6. It's a beautiful cabin for 4 pax though. So much space.
I personally wouldn't buy pressurised. The differential on any pressurised piston is so low that it doesn't make a huge amount of difference to your safely achievable levels. I'd be more interested in oxygen.

Glendalegoon, the master of the MU2:ok: is correct. If 6 adults is you're mission more than 10% of the time I'd be considering a whole other set of airplanes, but at three or four times your stated budget.

[glendalegoon]

why don't you write a book about buying planes...it will help offset the cost of owning one.

Ah, you want a 400 series cessna. Well, I guess you could go that way. I flew 402s for a commuter airline in prehistoric times. Also flew a 414 for a charter outfit.

Please reread my advice about twins. Also, do not fall for sucker traps like a nice used 401/411.

IF you have the money, IF you are willing to get good and stay good at flying a twin on one engine. Fine. BUT JUST THE COST of keeping your heater working right may scare you. You might also want to look at a C425. Or a piper 1040.

AND THEN there is maintaining de ice boots.


Methinks you might be considering running an illegal charter outfit. Don't.


With the wonder of the internet, you can look up articles about all the planes you are considering. Flying Magazine has a whole library of books...look through it and see if there isn't a book about airplane ownership.

The state of general aviation in europe is not a good one. In the USA it has been better too.

why not rent? the cost is then fixed and someone else has the worries. Unless you r a smuggler!

silverknapper is right about the baron. nice plane, but it will have very short legs ifyou load her up.

Oh, and then on these larger planes like a C421 you have geared engines. And, and and and and....

Oh, have you ever even gotten a lesson in a twin?


OH and and and...I use to fly singles over a good deal of fog and having a twin would have been nice. But I'm still here and I figured out what I would do if the engine quit in a single...over fog.

HEY, have you searched the internet?

http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/aircraft/best-buys/twin-engine-pistons-buyers-guide-2014.html#.VIcAPlWJOuY


above is an article you might read.

[Spamcan defender]

Thanks for the continued replies folks, very helpful...


Methinks you might be considering running an illegal charter outfit. Don't.

Not even close. It never entered my head, I'm GENUINELY looking for an aircraft to operate as personal transport for me, family, friends...that's it!!



Spamcan

[Journey Man]

I've always found if your goal is to take six people, look at an eight seater. If your goal is to take four people, look at a six seater. That's effectively what you'll end up needing with any range and six passengers onboard.

Barons are a joy to fly; light on the controls, nimble. But a 55 will sit on it's tail with six adults and getting into the rear bench is just an embarrassing exercise anyway. A 58 is more useable. Of all the light aircraft I've known, the Baron has been the only one to have suffered gear collapses (six that I've personally known about, which is enough that I've formed an opinion about them…).

Pipers are rugged. Cessnas are slightly more delicate. The only problem with pistons is that because of the certification processes you're getting such old technology. They're effectively tractor engines bolted onto the wings… Okay, I'm being facetious, but hopefully you know what I mean.

If you start to look at turbo charged engines, I would spend the interim 24 months reading the John Deakin's excellent Pelican's Perch series of articles. They can be found here. (http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182146-1.html?redirected=1) It's been a while since I've spent a lot of time in MEPs, but in case it's not the norm still a JPi or similar should be mandatory equipment on any piston aircraft you're looking at.

Happy flying, enjoy the twin training.

[AdamFrisch]

Too many rubbish figures thrown about.

Twins are great. And for the money you're wanting to spend, you can get an all weather, FIKI twin that can cope with all the stuff you need and have change over for fuel to fly for a couple of years.

My first twin cost $38K to buy. Spent $70K on it updating it over 3 years and flew 350hrs on it. Sold it for $30K. Sure, a bad deal for resale value, but not from an operations point. That's less than $350/hr. This is US prices.

My current twin is FIKI (or almost, you just need to add the inner boots), pressurised and can go to FL250 and stay there for 5 hrs all day long, burning 25gal/hr doing 200kts. If you really want to go fast, she'll do 235kts. Last years annual was $13K. If you budget between $7-15K a year for annual, you're in good shape. The rest is fuel and engine funds.

I've just put downpayment for a twin turbine as a step up, so my Aerostar 601P is for sale. $150K and she's yours and I'll even deliver it to England for fuel costs. Newly overhauled engines, new turbos, new hoses, new cables, newly o/h props etc - everything is new firewall forward. I've flown 50hrs on the engines and they run perfectly, so you have 1750hrs left to fly. More than a lifetime's worth for the average flier. Aerostars will get your family and you there in style, go faster than anything else and still be frugal on fuel to boot. They can't be beat in that regard.

http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n79sr/ny7.jpg
Here she is, 1978 601P.

http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/n79sr/ferry8.jpg
Enroute.

http://www.adamfrisch.com/images/aerostar.jpg
Not mine. But a nice paint scheme. This is the 700P model. It will do almost 280kts up high and beat most King Airs all day long on half the fuel.

[Journey Man]

Are your figures representative of twin ownership in the UK? I believe that's the OP's location.

[stilton]

That's a very pretty aircraft Adam. I have a decent number of hours in the Baron and it handles like a dream.


How does the Aerostar compare in that regard ? no question as to it's speed and efficiency.

[ATPMBA]

At an FAA safety meeting they said 10% of single engine aircraft with an engine failure accident results in a fatality, 50% of multi-engine aircraft with an engine failure accident result in a fatality.

[Booglebox]

Great pictures. I've always liked the Aerostar. Good-looking well-designed machine with nice little details, for instance the elevator and rudder parts are the same and interchangable, and the exhaust points backwards for extra speed :8

What's that rectangular thing on the windscreen?

[jiggi]

What's that rectangular thing on the windscreen?

Heated part of the windshield for icing conditions.

[AdamFrisch]

How does the Aerostar compare in that regard ? no question as to it's speed and efficiency.

It's got push pull rods for all controls, so it's very nice to fly. Very direct and fighter jet-like. It's the best handling aircraft I've flown, although I have not flown a Baron. Hear good things about them. Handles a lot better than the Commander I'm going back to.

Are your figures representative of twin ownership in the UK? I believe that's the OP's location.

The fuel cost obviously will be 3 times higher in Europe. And landing fees. But I would think the fixed costs; maintenance, insurance and tie down are about the same. £200/hr in fuel, engine reserves £70, annual reserves (based on 150hrs/year) £10. It looks to me like this could be flown for around £300/hr all in. Not bad for a plane that will beat just about any airline in Europe door to door in time. I've found that the tipping point is 1000nm trips. Longer than that and the airlines win, shorter than that I win.

At an FAA safety meeting they said 10% of single engine aircraft with an engine failure accident results in a fatality, 50% of multi-engine aircraft with an engine failure accident result in a fatality.

That doesn't take in all the twin engine failures that land safely on one, which is a majority. The number above only takes into account the ones who ended up in an accident. This is why the old chestnut, the single vs. twin debate can never reflect reality as every twin engine shutdown that lands safely doesn't get reported and are not part of the statistics.

[stilton]

Very nice, it has to be the best looking light twin made.


The Baron's not nearly as fast but if you get a chance to fly one you will enjoy it !

[UFO999]

950euros per hour is very high, most likely 450per hour

[cockney steve]

Adam Are we going to get another series of articles about your Aerostar ownership?
Going back to the Commander, eh? Please do tell all.
?Your last series was most entertaining and fascinating......pretty please!:)

[vector4fun]

Read John Frank's Sept 2013 article on parts availability and prices for legacy Cessna aircraft. Note, John is the founder of the Cessna Pilot's Association. Certain parts for the Twin Cessna fleet are almost impossible to get at any price except from salvage yards. John give the example of a main landing gear pivot for a R182 single, cost $1700 in 1990, now lists for $17,000!!!

1411 1309 (http://www.joomag.com/magazine/1411-1309/0581485001378394496?short)

If you buy a Twin Cessna, it better be in like new condition, or you'll soon spend your inheritance on the care and upkeep. There's a reason they are getting "cheap" on the used market.

At least Piper still makes the Seneca, though you won't haul 6 pax unless you leave a fair amount of fuel behind.

[firefish]

The Bluebook is a great place to start if you want to get a grasp on aircraft prices.

Myself, I'm biased towards the Beechcraft Baron. I flew a B55 quite extensively for some time and while not a beginners twin it's certainly fast and very agile and responsive. The C-model has bigger cg-span IIRC which is a benefit.
I normally cruised at levels in the low hundreds and saw TAS at about 200 knots with a fuel flow of about, again IIRC, in the low 20 GPH total.
I regularly would chase the commuter – to their great dismay – twin turboprops during approach when I was doing 220+ knots in the descent. Speed is easily lost in a Baron (the fly mostly on power...).

[AdamFrisch]

Adam Are we going to get another series of articles about your Aerostar ownership?
Going back to the Commander, eh? Please do tell all.
?Your last series was most entertaining and fascinating......pretty please!

Cockney, I'm stepping up to an old turbine in 2015, so I'll probably write a line or two about that experience when the time comes. Still have not gotten delivery.

[stilton]

I flew the several different 55 series Barons and never got over 190 knots true, granted they were pretty old but I certainly never got down as low as 20GPH total, that's just not right, I was burning 15GPH / per side.


Furthermore I can't imagine any turboprop you could catch in a Baron or who 'the commuter' is

[silverknapper]

I still fly a 55. Usually see 22-24gph in cruise, around 165 TAS.

I have never seen 200 kts in a 55. In a new 58 yes, but at the expense of hugely increased burn.

Maybe it's me but I find the baron a slippery airplane, and one which needs a lot more thought about descent planning than any turboprop I've flown, particularly if caring for the engines properly. Especially the older 55's where the flap limiting speed is very low. Very useful gear speed though.

[stilton]

When time is not an issue I can see where you could get the fuel burn down.


I was flying small freight commercially and we went everywhere flat out, time was very tight and fuel burn was not an issue, in fact we had to punch a time clock when we landed :ok:


It was a lot of fun except flying it in all and every kind of weather, I had a lot of respect for the Baron, it could carry a lot of ice and keep going.

[Global Aviator]

Throw the IO-550s on the wings...