CL604 Cobham SAR jobs

[Maisk Rotum]

Interesting new contract awarded to Cobham for 12 years.

Any info on when the ops will start and how much the pay will be/typical roster expectation?

What does the Australian Maritime Safety Authority use now, as a google search revealed little?

[Pettibone]

AeroRescue - supporting the Australian Maritime Safety Authority (http://www.aerorescue.com.au/)

[Maisk Rotum]

Ok so does that mean Aerorescue is losing the contract or is this in addition to the 328s?

[Squawk7700]

The 328's are headed off from this contract. They are to be replaced by faster jet aircraft.

[BPA]

First job is listed on the AFAP jobs page.

[Green gorilla]

Mid July they start looking for crew.

[Maisk Rotum]

I notice that the 328s have the ability to drop stuff though a certified open door. Dropping beacons, rafts, pumps etc from a CL604 with an open door will be a whole new ballgame if at all. I see only one door on a 604 and it is forward of the wing and right in the vacuum envelope of the engines.

Other possibility is to have an aft cargo certified 'bomb bay' for SAR products but I suspect this would be prohibitively expensive to certify unless it has already been done.

[thorn bird]

Had similar thoughts Rotum,

Wouldnt have thought the 604 would make the most ideal SAR aircraft.

Speed to the area of search perhaps, but loiter time low level when on station?. Any 604 experts out there could give enlightenment?

One thing for sure the guvmint forked out a Pile of $$$ for range capable corporate aircraft during the SAR response to the Malasian 777 disappearance.

Surely this is not in response to that? it's something that dosnt come up very often and 604's are not exactly cheap to operate.

[hawkerxp]

Challenger is a great SAR aircraft.

There are a number of military's that use them for surveillance and SAR.

Robust engines designed for relatively lower level flights (Same as a A10 Warthog)

In flight baggage door, actually designed to be opened in flight. There is apparently a bomb removal procedure that means dispatching it out of the rear door.

The only thing I would suggest is that the 605 would have been a better option for the aircraft as in 12 years time the 604 will be a pretty old ship.

[BPA]

When it was announced that Cobham had won the contract, the press releases mentioned the aircraft will be capable of dropping rafts etc. They also send the aircraft will be modified in a similar manner to the 604's used by the Danish Airforce.

Lots of info here on the Danish Airforce 604s

http://flymag.dk/eskadrille-721-flyvevabnets-transport-eskadrille-en/

[Jenna Talia]

Does anyone know if the current 328 flight crews will be offered positions on the 604?

[onehitwonder]

think about when the Dornier has had to go as far as Norfolk, position out of EN / CS to WLM (refuel) then head offshore, some 6+ hours before getting on scene

[Judd]

Rumoured that Dornier pilots at some ports are only averaging 25 hours a month with a lot of waiting - waiting - waiting. Wonder if the Challenger pilots will get more or less flying?

[thorn bird]

Wow, I can see that the whole SAR thing is heading towards becoming an industry in itself. Huge amounts of money being thrown at it.


Could this be the precursor to having a true "Coastguard"??

[BPA]

Back in the 80's we had the NSCA who operated Helicopters (205's,212's and 412s), aircraft (B200s and Dorniers) from bases across the east coast. They even had recuse crews who were trained to parachute with recuse gear into the water (just like the coast guard). From memory just before it's demise they just started operating a couple of ships.

[601]

Back in the 80's we had the NSCA

and we all know how that ended up.

[hawkerxp]

25 hours per month is pretty good compared to some corporate jobs... the waiting bit is standard at the very least there will be some sort of roster.

[bodybag]

I heard a rumour that Cobham have purchased a 604 sim to support the contract? Can anyone confirm truth to this?

[onehitwonder]

probably spend more time in the sim than the aircraft

[kiwiabroad]

Why are so many people fussed over hours? Wouldn't you prefer a job with a roster so you could plan and enjoy your lifestyle? That's what I look forward too

[Green gorilla]

I've done both low hour jobs now back to a high time gig getting to the age more time on the ground is a good thing that's 26 years of flying for you.

[Pettibone]

Challenger arrival heralds new era for Australian SAR | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2015/12/challenger-arrival-heralds-new-era-for-australian-sar/)

[Runaway Gun]

Pprune is a great tool, especially for finding out that you didn't get an interview.

How hard is it for them to reply?

[Runaway Gun]

Fair point. Just letting my frustration out after hearing nothing from over 90% of the application forms I fill out. Breeeeeathhhhe...

[das Uber Soldat]

I'd be pretty surprised you didn't get some contact. I didn't even bother doing the stage 1 testing after seeing the pay packet, still got an email saying I passed stage 1 and an invitation to stage 2. I ignored stage 2 and then literally got a phone call from the company asking me to fly down for an interview.

Methinks they're having a hard time finding crew to accept those T&C's.

[Dashunder]

Your spot on, no one on the Border Protection side of things with the exception of a couple who want to move to Melbourne are interested.

[josephfeatherweight]

Many of the posts on here complain about how companies never respond to their job applications - I agree with all of them, especially when you meet their requirements and they don't even have the decency to send a standard "Dear John" letter. But, it goes both ways -
I'd be pretty surprised you didn't get some contact. I didn't even bother doing the stage 1 testing after seeing the pay packet, still got an email saying I passed stage 1 and an invitation to stage 2. I ignored stage 2 and then literally got a phone call from the company asking me to fly down for an interview.

In my view, that's pretty ordinary not having the decency to let them know you weren't continuing with your application, irrespective of the pay (which I agree is below the mark...)

[Ozavatar]

I am with you on the stage 1 and stage 2 @ Uber .
I ignored the stage 1 and reluctantly did the stage 2 with the exception of virtual interview . I have no desire on the FO WAGES FOR ONLY $72K and fly CL604. I pretty much laughed at the package .

I haven't heard anything since than therefore I consider myself out of the list.
cobham is a good company to work for but with a condition like the above it's very hard for me to even leave my GA job which I would like to but I a long run I am better off here to say the least .

All the best to those who got the interview .

oz

[das Uber Soldat]

In my view, that's pretty ordinary not having the decency to let them know you weren't continuing with your application, irrespective of the pay (which I agree is below the mark...)
I should have mentioned that I deleted my application from their website after the pay packet was released. Otherwise I would agree with you.

[Flyin]

Slight thread drift but any words on interviews being offered for Special Missions FO?

[das Uber Soldat]

You didn't read the thread very closely did you.

[Flyin]

I have read the thread but maybe I should have clarified, I'm after info on the Dash-8 Special Missions.

[VanDriver01]

anyone been called for interviews for dash-8 or CL604? i applied for both and no response. At this point I would take either job for what ever they offer on pay. Just need a job to get back into the flying. They haven't sent myself the you did not make the cut email either.

[Tango7]

Looks like CL604 FO positions being re advertised for Perth.

[Pettibone]

Mitsubishi mafia?

[Green gorilla]

Mitsubishi mafia? Pay increase may be a good start way below industry standard for a specialized role.

[Falling Leaf]

Pay increase may be a good start way below industry standard for a specialized role.

What are they offering? Can't find any information here.

[Tango7]

https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/documents/agreements/fwa/AE416964.pdf


Have they only interviewed for Perth or all bases?


I wonder how they went for Observer positions? Most would be coming over from Aerorescue I would think.

[Capn Bloggs]

Wasat mean? Kiss the ground on which they walk?? :p

[Green gorilla]

FO positions readvertised open till the 18th watch the turnover in the next few years with bonds coming to an end.

[2020Balance]

Sounds like its going to be a little 10/11 squadron just like little 34 squadron in Canberra. I get the military thing but Wazza is long gone.

[darmah]

Almost no crew going to Cobham from Aerorescue. The AR crew are experienced with the old Surveillance Australia hands now having 10 years of SAR experience plus whatever they had before with Coastwatch. Cobham have only offered jobs to the in-experienced short timers, this way they can stamp their "culture"on to malleable people. So down the back you have low experience aviators, we are talking 100 hrs or so. Up the front you will have Airline Capts who have never flown low level and FOs who have never flown jets. Put this together with an annual flight experience predominantly accumulated in the sim , plus the lack of drop capability, low visibility out of the windows and a far too high search speed, and you have a dud. AMSA are the true culprits here, their ignorance has allowed them to get steamrollered by the big aviation bully.

[thorn bird]

Darmah,
I think there is an element of truth in what you say, has AMSA ever actually found anyone in distress?.
To me it all sounds like the "National Safety Council" revisited, only this time with the snout firmly stuck in the public trough.

[Slezy9]

So down the back you have low experience aviators, we are talking 100 hrs or so. Up the front you will have Airline Capts who have never flown low level

Darmah,

You must personally know each and every person offered a job to make a statement like that?? Or is it that you missed out on a job and are bitter?

I personally know of multiple people who have vast experience operating at low level (RAAF AP-3C/ CL604 pilots plus a few P3 back enders) who have been offered jobs. I'm not saying that there are not some who fit your bill but there are also some people who have relevant and current experience.

As for no drop capability, I'm pretty sure they are modifying the aircraft so it can drop.... Otherwise why have a "dropmaster" position onboard?

[Capn Bloggs]

plus the lack of drop capability

Cobham wins $640m AMSA search and rescue contract | Australian Aviation (http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/10/cobham-wins-640m-amsa-search-and-rescue-contract/)

[darmah]

In the real world, drop capability means dispatching life rafts or dewatering pumps. An array of heavy and large equipment is necessary to address the various tasks that may occur.
The perfect method of doing this is with a ramp equipped aircraft. If that is not available then you require the biggest aperture from a cargo door that is operable in flight.
The current droppable equipment is designed to drop at 140 kts ideally less.
The 604 can drop small items, say the size of a jerry can, far short of a liferaft or 60kg pump. But with the drag counts increasing the speed is now at 170 kts+ to drop. The higher the speed the less accurate the splash point. While this is going on you have a jet engine intake a few feet away from the flapping ropes and a myriad of other items in the drop zone. One mistake and you may snuff an engine out at low level.
And yes AMSA and AR have saved many lives over the last decade.

[hawkerxp]

Not always going to be Airline capts or FO's who have never flown jet's I know 2 guys who are experienced on corporate jets who have taken the gig...

[darmah]

With all due respect to the people taking on this challenging role. A bizjet pilot will take some time to get used to pole ing an aircraft at 500 ft or lower, ideally you will drop at 100 It's not what we generally do with any kind of jet. Real world training sooner or later will be critical for flight safety, sim has its place but ultimately actual hands on is required.

[V1650]

604 Cargo door is several feet back and well away from the engine intake - zero chance for ingestion from anything dropped from the cargo door position

[Kiwiconehead]

http://www.theleadsouthaustralia.com.au/public/download.jsp?foreign_id=4282

[Spagholio]

Just a quick note to let anyone that knows me I'm not Darmah, for professional reasons this needs clarification.

[josephfeatherweight]

I know 2 guys who are experienced on corporate jets who have taken the gig...
Really? For that money? Money isn't everything, but that's pretty lowball.
I guess I understand the value of a roster and the low contact hours, but I'm still a bit surprised.

[Excia]

Quick question, is the CL604 able to sit on the hardstand with enough fuel to fulfill the required range as per the contract spec, while being able to meet a 30 minute response time? As to zero chance of anything going into an intake, that comment reeks of someone who has not done dropping for SAR operations. There are many things that could and do go forward of the door after deployment. Best just to reduce the risk, as I'm sure Cobham are doing.

[darmah]

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjzjLLNyYDLAhXLoZQKHYFaBP4QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpaspaleygroup.com%2Faviation%2Faerorescue&psig=AFQjCNF5YU_bF6FPN1cctoQ4o8jFZCBCGQ&ust=1455858902545895http://paspaleygroup.com/paspaley/image/asset/00/55/51c246e772c6d.jpg?width=646&height=377

Standard Dornier Ops, despatch life preserving equipment over water 100ft. 10 years to get it right. Accuracy is repeatably within 2-3 meters of target at 140 kts.

[Capn Bloggs]

Quick question, is the CL604 able to sit on the hardstand with enough fuel to fulfill the required range as per the contract spec, while being able to meet a 30 minute response time?
I suppose that if it's full of fuel (running on a GPU obviously) and the crew is in the office waiting (with perhaps approval for less-than-30 minutes Flight Notification) it could be taxiing in much less than that. This isn't a space shuttle... :rolleyes:

[Cilba]

The load as shown is despatched at 130 KIAS, generally into wind, 200 feet above the highest point of the vessel.
It did not take 10 years to get it right. There were successful drops from the outset of operations.
All crew members are required to carry out operational or practice drops at periods not exceeding 90 days.

[Excia]

I can appreciate the logistics required to get a 30 minute response, not that difficult. My point was can the CL 604 be left with full fuel on the hard stand to meet the endurance required for the contract? Another interesting point would be is the cargo door able to deploy the large diesel pump. The tender documents were very specific with respect to items needing to be deployed and all bidders needed to fulfil that in order to proceed. Again though I have no idea as to the size of the door in the 604, just what the tender requirements were for drop equipment deployment.

[TWOTBAGS]

There is a lot more to this than has and probably will ever be published.

Darmah is on the money, regarding platforms in the end there were two similar types and the criteria for selection was blured.

Big issues were as follows:

Ability to depart max fuel and then have the tasking cancelled...... how long before you can land due max landing weight??? There is a 10000lb difference in the 604 between MTOW & MLW. Does this mean the requirement for max fuel each time means that each launch will have a potential 5hr sortie before you can land????

1E DP max range return. Yep this was a doozie the numbers crunched to make this work was a challenge. Lets say you are already out at 1200nm+ from the nearest landing point and you find your target. You get low and slow drop the toys and just as you do that at 100ft @ 130Kts you suck in Percy the Pelican into #1.......
But that's not really the problem, the problem comes in when the drop master calls up and says he cant close the door.

OK 1E return, not a problem, slow climb back to altitude, yep you will be a bit slower but the altitude will help with the fuel burn.
DP return, no problem get up to FL110, both engines and you have the speed.

1E DP..... there is the limiting factor, the return is slow, the fuel burn is high and that was the performance challenge.

I don't know what the actual numbers from the 604 were but product B could do 1200nm+

The next criteria was the amount of crap required to be carried. Ask anyone at the current operator what happened to the doorknob. More and more stuff went in to the point where it bulked out.

The 604 will be tight to begin with, Product B offered the ability to carry the 5 crew, plus the laundry list of toys to throw out the door..... +5 more pax, ie an entire relief crew.

All of this was meant to be done in a $27M p/a budget...... Yet the winner made a non conforming bid at $53M p/a, and one of the used the same aircraft.

Will joe public get a platform that is better than what exists?..... yes it will. Will the taxpayer get value for money? you make up your own mind.

:rolleyes:

[Aileron Roll]

slightly off topic...... did anyone get an interview for Dash 8 slots advertised late last year?

[Slezy9]

Ability to depart max fuel and then have the tasking cancelled...... how long before you can land due max landing weight??? There is a 10000lb difference in the 604 between MTOW & MLW. Does this mean the requirement for max fuel each time means that each launch will have a potential 5hr sortie before you can land????

If you are taking 5 hours to burn 10000lbs you're doing it wrong!! It's a jet, fly around at 3000 feet off the coast and you'll be ready to land in a couple of hours, maximum!!

The only time you're burning 2000lbs an hour is when you're sitting up at FL400!

[TWOTBAGS]

Yeah Slezy you are correct, dragging it around a fix @ A050 with the boards out converting fuel to noise will work.

HOWEVER

When you read the contract and you are paid by the hour "Air Time" I'm sure the boss/board/shareholders would much prefer you get an extra 3hr of airtime.

Many things that pilots think are "the right thing to do" are sometimes significantly different to the company line. I worked for a wet lease operator at one stage that had a power by the hour contract, we regularly operated a 757 at M0.68, min cost (fuel) cruise.

Pilots are really good at perpetuating the myth that because they are at the pointy end with the big windows they know what the big picture is. The reality is usually somewhat different.

[Capn Bloggs]

The 604 will be tight to begin with, Product B offered the ability to carry the 5 crew, plus the laundry list of toys to throw out the door..... +5 more pax, ie an entire relief crew.

Out of interest and not meant as a stir, what was Product B?

[Cessna Jockey]

When you read the contract and you are paid by the hour "Air Time" I'm sure the boss/board/shareholders would much prefer you get an extra 3hr of airtime.

Regardless of what the Company pockets, I was under the impression that the new contact did not include any additional flight pay for the crew? I highly doubt they will drag it around for an extra couple hours just so management can give themselves a pat on the back in between circle jerks.

[TWOTBAGS]

Haha CJ, you're funny.......

I was going to say more but it would be a waste.

[pelosh]

What about Fuel Dumping?
Any Aircraft with a ratio between MTOW and MLW greater than 105% have a Fuel Dump System.
Problem solved....no need to orbit for few hours with our tax money.

[Slezy9]

What about Fuel Dumping?
Any Aircraft with a ratio between MTOW and MLW greater than 105% have a Fuel Dump System.
Problem solved....no need to orbit for few hours with our tax money.

Fuel dumping for weight is prohibited. Only permitted to dump to control CoG.

[pelosh]

Is that SOP's or Casa?
The only limitation I know is in the AIP and it's 6000ft mini and Clearance from the CTL.
I did a fair bit of Fuel Dumping in a previous life and it was always for reaching the MLW after a major problem at MTOW.

[Slezy9]

Is that SOP's or Casa?

It's a flight manual limitation. I can't find the reference at the moment...

Even if you could dump for weight, you can only dump the tail tanks which are only a little over 3000lbs. They dump at an impressive rate of 100lbs a minute!!

[Capt Claret]

Any Aircraft with a ratio between MTOW and MLW greater than 105% have a Fuel Dump System.

Not the Douglas/Boeing 717. MLW 49895, MBRW 53524, ratio 107.3%, no fuel dump capacity.

[blumoon]

So what is the performance like if/when the FLAP FAILs (its quite common) after the drop in the middle of nowhere. They can only be reset on the ground i believe...

Transit at flap 20 is gonna be an issue 🙄

[josephfeatherweight]

The FLAPS FAIL issue is less of an issue these days, but certainly one to consider. I believe that the main culprit was "twist" over the length of the flexible drive shaft and that this has, on the whole, been addressed. FLAPS FAIL certainly happens more rarely.
Yes, the fix is generally easy - pull and reset the Flap CB - and yes, only "allowed" on the ground. But, if I was in the seat, and the option was to go for a swim in the Southern Ocean, you can guess what I'd do! :ok:

[Slezy9]

Transit at flap 20 is gonna be an issue 🙄

Surely all recoveries are planned with a flap fail taken into account! Worst case of single engine, DP or flaps down....

[darmah]

Aviation is about compromise and you rarely get everything you need in one package. My understanding is the jet was selected due to the range and speed capabilities, particularly when you consider the Mh 370 Sar. However the reality is that the 604 would still be lacking when it came to a search so far offshore, it is a very high level of difficulty to address that (hopefully) once a lifetime operation, as we saw it really becomes an international military problem to mount a capable response. On the other hand the vast majority of issues are a lot closer to land, or in fact over land where jet speed makes a different of only a few minutes, the critical element is to get stores to the survivors asap. The array of useful stores will be significantly smaller than present, with some of the current inventory not being able to be despatched easily or not at all.
I think the operators in the rescue centre are going to be shocked when they discover the shortfalls of this solution. Not Cobhams fault they are providing a service they have been contracted for.

[FMTAfterburn]

Hey Darmah, some interesting points, I agree that solutions are often a compromise. It just depends what the future requirements will be. Perhaps guided stores. Maybe Cobham can swap three jets for three surveillance Dash 8s. Gives Customs faster patrol platforms and Amsa a bigger door:ok:

[thorn bird]

So what are we looking at here, another "Sea Sprite" debacle??

[FMTAfterburn]

Let's have a quick look at it from a helicopter perspective .
Contract was for a maximum of $32.5 m Pa as stated by AMSA in the RFT
The Cobham contract is initially $53m PA for 12 years, according to press release.

The aircraft is a low wing jet which is extremely rare to be used in this low level surveillance environment.

The cargo door is not large enough to allow for despatch of all items in the current Amsa inventory, as specially stated in the RFT.

Observation windows are provided, but almost all of the field of view aft is obscured by the main plane. Any observer will tell you that sometimes a critical sighting is made when the aircraft passes over a small or semi submerged object due to changes in lighting and perspective.

The FLIR pod is aft which means looking forward the FOV is severely limited, with the radome also limiting the view.

Drop speed is greater than the design speed for the stores.

View from the cockpit is severely limited due to combing, nose and rake of the windscreen. Drops are usually called by the captain who maintains a view of the target.

All aircrew will be paid less than they have been for the last ten years while gaining first hand experience on Sar ops.

The weight of the aircraft and pcn limitations restrict where it can land, or how much useful fuel it can carry.

The list goes on.
This solution is significantly more expensive and less capable than the current aircraft, and basically the dedication and service of the current crew has been discarded as unimportant by AMSA and Cobham. The vast majority of these professionals will be out of work in order to provide an inferior service. Yep seasprite all over again, or perhaps a Robert Amann moment, for those of you who don't know, look it up.

[pithblot]

"Robert Amann moment". Now there's a blast from the past! :D
At least the Amann debacle was rolled up, put aside and replaced with
a service fit for task. What chance of that with the SAR contract?

[thorn bird]

"This solution is significantly more expensive and less capable than the current aircraft, and basically the dedication and service of the current crew has been discarded as unimportant by AMSA and Cobham. The vast majority of these professionals will be out of work in order to provide an inferior service. Yep seasprite all over again, or perhaps a Robert Amann moment, for those of you who don't know, look it up."

Wonder how much in political "Donations" this little contract cost?

[Slezy9]

Wonder how much in political "Donations" this little contract cost?

Remember there are two sides to every story...

I get the feeling some of those posting here are people who are losing jobs. I'm not suggesting they don't have a right to be angry but they may not be looking at this situation impartially.

[Excia]

I note you haven't rebutted any points, just used the " they aren't happy" argument. An alternative view might be there are a heap of professionals who are concerned what was offered is not what Australia will get, for more money. Feel free to address the points the previous poster made.

[FMTAfterburn]

Hi Slezy, I don't know that impartiality is a requirement for a rumour network. You are correct though, there is resentment from folk who have dedicated large chunks of their lives to Coastwatch and AMSA, and they have been effectively thrown under the bus.what can you say of an organisation that is so arrogant that it turns away this level of expertise. This is also an indictment that the Commonwealth are happy to ignore this transfer of skills as unimportant.That coupled with the cost over runs and unsuitable airframe suggest that the selection was biaised to the foreign entity who now has a monopoly on the two most significant special mission contracts in Australia. Yep we are angry, and feeling betrayed.
Look out it can happen to any of us.

[Trevor the lover]

Hey Afterburn - tried to PM you but couldn't. Can you PM me so I can send to you??!!


Trev

[josephfeatherweight]

So, these guys are finding themselves advertising again for captains and FOs for Cairns base. By all rights, this should be an attractive job - but clearly it isn't. Cobham need to get real wrt their salary package on this one.

[Famzos]

Would you please post a link to the advertisement for Cairns based crew?
Thank you.

[AerocatS2A]

Famzos: Australian Federation of Air Pilots - Pilot Jobs in Asia Pacific Region (http://www.afap.org.au/html/s02_article/article_view.asp?art_id=422&nav_cat_id=127&nav_top_id=73)

[bolthead]

Wasathangi

Are you suggesting the contract was signed with known unknowns? ie what it can or can't drop.

Wouldn't it be good, even just once, if a govt department purchased something off the shelf, and it works - on time and on budget? I'm thinking Sea Sprites, air to air refuelling etc etc

[C_FKAL]

Wasathangi, if they are dropping now from 604 I believe people would want to know what the accuracy is. You seem to be in the know can you elaborate.

[Excia]

Wasathangi I don't know where you get your information but there were plenty of AR crew who put in EOI's that didn't get an interview. My understanding of the process was it was very unprofessional with crew not getting an email response at all. Looked rather petty and spiteful, those in the game know who was pushing the buttons.

[Cessna Jockey]

Wasathangi I can vouch for the above. I also know of multiple AR pilots who got nothing more than a "thanks for your application, we will be in touch", AR pilots who have had NO previous affiliation with Cobham in the past. Many never progressed beyond the online application stage even though they are performing the job currently. Then to see the job re-advertised again just last week? What a joke.:ugh:

[Going Nowhere]

VH-XNC ? FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHXNC)

[RENURPP]

Did the guys who received the "thanks but no thanks" letter apply for Captains position with no jet time?

[Excia]

Renurrp, I know of at least 3 fellas who had multiple jet ratings that didn't get a look in. I also know who they hired and their type of time. No disrespect as I'm sure they are worthy, but experience counts for a bit at 200ft in a SS7. People didn't even get a thanks but no thanks either, rude to the extreme. It says a fair bit about the type of company they are when they can't even notify unsuccessful candidates, particularly when they meet all the requirements and more.

[Slezy9]

I also know who they hired and their type of time. No disrespect as I'm sure they are worthy, but experience counts for a bit at 200ft in a SS7.

So who have they hired then? Guys with type ratings already? Or guys with low level experience?

[RENURPP]

Jet ratings? Does that mean hrs or just a rating?

If I were them, and considered low level experience as essential, which I don't, I would be looking at their own Dash 8 pilots before external turbo prop guys who can steer and aircraft at 200 feet. (It's not that hard)

If I were them and I'm not, nor would they listen, I would definitely be looking for experienced guys with jet time. Considering the frequency they get airborne experience will count and I don't count playing games in the sim as suitable experience.

[Excia]

The blokes I know had jet experience, low level jet experience at that. So Renurrp you don't think low level dropping is that hard? Therein lies the problem. Experience in low level SAR operations is critical, particularly when the bulk of your training will be done in the sim, on an aircraft that has a slick wing when you're running 15 knots shy of the stall speed. Smarter minds than me are at work here and good luck to Cobham, I'm just pointing out that the AR crew didn't all get an interview and were dealt with rather rudely when it came to letting them know they were unsuccessful.

[Capt Claret]

when you're running 15 knots shy of the stall speed

I'm not familiar with the CL604. Do you mean Vs +15, or Vmin +15?

[Excia]

Capt Claret and other posters, I must apologize also. It appears the V2 speed as best as I can discover is 149 knots, + 15 would give us 164 knots not 180 knots drop speed as the Townsville refueller told me.

[Capt Claret]

Capt Claret did you already know the answer? If so it appears a rather fun way to highlight a fool, well played sir.

No. I sought clarification of your statement.

[AerocatS2A]

Auto throttle would give a bit more play room as well.

Perhaps. There are automation philosophies that are either all or nothing, i.e., if AP is off then AT must be off as well. I don't know how SM will run the CL604 but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if AT and AP were verboten below 1000'.

[Capn Bloggs]

There are automation philosophies that are either all or nothing, i.e., if AP is off then AT must be off as well.
Likewise, there are automation philosophies that are half and half. Like your machine, AS2A ;) and another "close by" light twin that looks like a mad dog. I understand the all-on-all-off was/is a 737 thing due to the PIOs that occur when the driver is changing the power whilst handflying. Certainly with centreline/mid-level engines, hand-flying with a decent ATS is a no-brainer.

[Slezy9]

Perhaps. There are automation philosophies that are either all or nothing, i.e., if AP is off then AT must be off as well. I don't know how SM will run the CL604 but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if AT and AP were verboten below 1000'.

The auto throttle will be permanently off.... As the Cobham 604's are apparently fitted for but not with!! Seems like AT would have been handy, even if just for the takeoff and cruise!

[AerocatS2A]

Likewise, there are automation philosophies that are half and half. Like your machine, AS2A and another "close by" light twin that looks like a mad dog. I understand the all-on-all-off was/is a 737 thing due to the PIOs that occur when the driver is changing the power whilst handflying. Certainly with centreline/mid-level engines, hand-flying with a decent ATS is a no-brainer.
Although the manufacturer is ok with half and half, the current company management are of an all or nothing mindset. Not that I'm likely to fly an RJ again any time soon.

[FMTAfterburn]

I realise this thread was created due to comments regarding Cobham SAR jobs, and focus is being placed on recruiting difficulties because of the radical departure from the norm for Sar. The recruiting is further complicated due to a conflicting range of operational imperatives, not too many people have the varied skill sets required for this work.

21 tonne jet, lots of inertia, and a lovely slick wing that needs speed.
Requirement for visual search at 120 -140 kts
Drop the current inventory of stores, big objects out of a small door.
Visual search (critical) with a low wing aircraft, not globally accepted.
An expectation that drops will be conducted at 100 -200 ft accurately.
Current drop speed approx 180 kts plus.
Do all of this as much as possible by simulation to save non revenue flying.

The aircraft has already been grounded after drop trials resulted in the store impacting the aircraft.some one earlier pointed out that there was zero chance of an engine ingesting drop items, I bet they also thought that there would be no chance of stores impact. If you have done this job for a long time keep looking for the items that might bite you. If you are new, be very very careful, and don't be cocky in areas you are yet to learn.
Cobham may sort their way through this, and if they do I will publicly applauded them. The issue is it should never have been this hard.
Aviation is a risk based activity, we try and mitigated it every step of the way. In this case AMSA,s selection has tried to put a square peg in a round hole. How many more contract variations are yet to come. I sincerely hope no one gets hurt, even better if some lives are saved.
Very high level of difficulty

[Slezy9]

Just wondering if you have anymore information on the store impacting the aircraft... I can see on FlightAware that the last flight was 12 March, surely there would be a incident report submitted to the ATSB for something like this?

[rodney rude]

and focus is being placed on recruiting difficulties


Cant be too difficult - I know one applicant - 13,000 hours, 11,000 jet hours, 1100 hours command 604, flight examiner, instrument rating examiner, sim instructor, and worked for 2 years in a dedicated Search and Rescue Unit - didn't even get thru the first "computer" interview.
Well that's the assumption because they didn't have the common decency to EVER get back to him.

[FMTAfterburn]

Rodney, that's the way Hr works in Australia now. They are contemptuous of people applying for jobs,. The problem with this role is Cobham have been in a station keeping excercise for a decade. All they needed to do was keep a trickle of pilots and backenders flowing into the Coastwatch system. Now all of a sudden they have the HR and pilot chiefs needing to recruit an extra 80 or so people in an aircraft type they don't know, in a role they have no experience in.
Low level Sar ops in a jet.

The process is a joke, and they are making heaps of friends with their arrogance.
One day industry will realise if you need someone with a particular skill set then you should

1. Interview them and check credentials
2. See if they actually have the skills you need - scenario based sim session.

After that you can make them take all the quizzes you like, hell they can fill out sudoku puzzles in the crew room to HR s hearts content.

Bottom line - if you don't know what skill set you need, try and use psychology to save on sim costs by knocking some candidates out. HR you got it all wrong, there is no substitute to interviewing people in an intelligent way asking sensible questions to test the candidates fit, then the pilot should get the opportunity to show their skills in the sim.(after all isn't that what we want, competency)
And what the hell happened to common courtesy, people put hours of work into their dreams of landing a job that could make a difference and not even an automated response. That's disgusting, wake up HR departments everywhere, I really hope you are on the receiving end of this completely unprofessional methodology one day.

[layman]

Story I heard (friend of a friend of a friend etc) about someone who did get an offer is that they did "all" the following up, at several stages of the process, sometimes multiple times to get a 'sort of' answer ... until they received their offer.

It would seem Cobham HR has a problem. Hopefully not indicative of their operational side

cheers
layman

[Runaway Gun]

Chief Pilot never heard of me, and never received the applications I sent in on two occasions.

[Mark_Tuck]

Would anyone that had an interview or got offered a position like to share the sort of hours & experience they had ? Guys/girls coming back from overseas ? Airline jobs, military ?? Were the positions filled before they were even advertised ? Sounds like a competitive market !

[Falling Leaf]

Have a read of the EBA which was agreed with the TWU before any flight crew were even hired for this role…

Expected to operate anywhere in the World, particularly Australasia for a multi million dollar Government contract…sounds great…wait...pilots are to provide their own flight publications! WTF

Very low currency expected so Sim has been purchased to offset this…great, sim expected 4 times a year…no wait, want ing to save money, lets try 3 times a year…

That's ok then, local training flights to cover off all recency requirements then like present incumbents do…no wait, those will be covered off on tasking flights, want to avoid non-revenue flights…

Wait, you will need to share accommodation with your sim partner while you do your endorsement…

And of course the pay offered in the EBA is about 20K short of what you would expect, and from what I understand, turbo-prop drivers going to this contract are taking a pay cut.

Great lifestyle of course. :ok:

[FMTAfterburn]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/fifo-aviation-operator-cobham-to-raise-941m-amid-mining-slowdown-20160426-gofqx3.html

Check out the link, AMSA may find this is going to continue to cost them more- for less

[Green gorilla]

Five years SAR experience on the Dornier as a Captain over 1200 hours. Currently on a jet with over 2300 jet time above 40t. Total over 10000 hours not a reply don't care now moved on food for thaught.

[vhxxxx]

Cobham HR is a load of crock! The profile for this job is about 35 years of age , ex military, air force preferred, and possible CL 604 endorsement . Did the interviews, did the sim, cost me bomb. No thanks!!

[Green gorilla]

This thread is becoming useless....Don't whinge if you don't fit the mould...

If you boast about 10 000hrs plus....and don't get a look in, move on graciously and be professional.

Such is aviation....;)I did get a reply last week but didn't accept the terms and conditions and providing experience covered a previous posters request.With 27 years of flying experience having over 10000 hours isn't boasting.

[FMTAfterburn]

Only a couple of weeks to go before training starts, 2 months to go before Perth is supposed to be online, Two aircraft in country neither fitted with radar or other sensors. No useful ability for dropping let alone practised accuracy. Looming rip off for the peeps of Australia. Wrong company and aircraft for the job

[Runaway Gun]

Judging by some of the info/rumours on here, your mission instructions will be sent out via osmosis, and you'll be provided with standard McGuyver kit (amounting to little more than chewing gum, chlorine and a safety clip) and expected to achieve the impossible contract requirements :)

[FMTAfterburn]

No way- check the rego for a " search aircraft" not a good start https://d31asmy75eposw.cloudfront.net/full/5/85792_1457094002.jpg

[FMTAfterburn]

https://d31asmy75eposw.cloudfront.net/full/5/85792_1457094002.jpg

[Capn Bloggs]

Nice wingtip...

[WannaBeBiggles]

Has anyone heard from Cobham about the Essendon based position advertised recently?

[FMTAfterburn]

FMTAfterburn....Are you tech crew?503

Wasathingi, a question to your question - where's the radar and FLIR?, perhaps this is an old photo

[Dashunder]

Wasathingi, a question to your question - where's the radar and FLIR?, perhaps this is an old photo

What's next, no ability to drop a diesel dewatering pump, apparently so!!

[Capn Bloggs]

What's next, no ability to drop a diesel dewatering pump, apparently so!!
I wonder who decided that? "Nah, forget that, I want a nice shiny jet to do SAR in".

How about you lot get the task requirements/tender document/contract/etc etc and find out what it/they actually require before criticising what appears to be being (not) provided compared to the old deal?

[FMTAfterburn]

I wonder who decided that? "Nah, forget that, I want a nice shiny jet to do SAR in".

How about you lot get the task requirements/tender document/contract/etc etc and find out what it/they actually require before criticising what appears to be being (not) provided compared to the old deal?
Cobham contract says it will drop all the standard items as tested and approved by AMSA, this is another variation away from that contract. Other items will not be droppable also. Cobham just haven't fessed up to it yet, one at a time until they try and swap a dash 8 or two in which although less capable does have a reasonable size door. Fixed wing SAR is about finding survivors and keeping them alive. You need an array of items to be dropped accurately

[Badengo]

These will all be down for major maintenance pretty quick due to have to record 10 cycles for every 1! Haha woops.

[Capt Claret]

Cobham contract says it will drop all the standard items as tested and approved by AMSA, this is another variation away from that contract. Other items will not be droppable also. Cobham just haven't fessed up to it yet, one at a time until they try and swap a dash 8 or two in which although less capable does have a reasonable size door

Oh well, the ensuing court case when Cobham are sued for breach of contract should be interesting, hey! Any chance one of you folks who seem to know what Cobham will or won't do before its done might care to share the winning lotto numbers? :rolleyes:

[PLovett]

I understand, very 3rd hand, that a young man was offered the FO position on the 604 based at Essendon. He, for reasons unknown, had wanted a seat on the Dash 8 so he requested that. Was told that those positions were filled and therefore unavailable. When he then said, oh well the 604 it is, he was told that as he had expressed a wish for something else he was no longer acceptable for the 604 and therefore was rejected.

[RENURPP]

If I was a betting man I would say the legal people are probably a little ahead of a bunch of disgruntled pilots. What is the definition of "standard equipment" would be my first thought.
Again a bunch of disgruntled pilots who possibly base their objections on rumour and Il will think they are smarter than all the management at AMSA and one of the larger companies that deal with this type of operation world wide.

Plovett, he learnt a lesson then didn't he?

[FMTAfterburn]

Not trying to prove anything. But I am saying the full service will not be ready on time, or budget, and the aircraft type is a backward step.

[FMTAfterburn]

Well one week to go before the unique SAR jet contract starts in Perth.
I will be curious to see how Amsa are going to mitigate the lack of capability to the seafaring and outback public when this partially compliant aircraft comes " online". Although it is not unusual to have some issues unresolved with a new and complicated aircraft on contract, there will be deficiencies which will take some time to resolve. In the meantime keep your tinny in the shed.

[thorn bird]

Not to worry there's always to good old local aeroclub to muster out there as first responders......??...Oh sorry, forgot! the government regulated them out of business.

[Dashunder]

Well one week to go before the unique SAR jet contract starts in Perth.
I will be curious to see how Amsa are going to mitigate the lack of capability to the seafaring and outback public when this partially compliant aircraft comes " online". Although it is not unusual to have some issues unresolved with a new and complicated aircraft on contract, there will be deficiencies which will take some time to resolve. In the meantime keep your tinny in the shed.
Online in a week, not what I am hearing.

[josephfeatherweight]

Re-advertising for captains in Perth and Essendon. One needs to take a long, introspective look at oneself if one can't crew a 604 based in Melbourne!!

[Capt Claret]

Where do you get "can't crew" from?

[josephfeatherweight]

This job was advertised around 12 months ago. Now, they have re-advertised for captains for the Perth and Melbourne bases. So, it seems that they "can't crew" these positions. Simple?

[RENURPP]

OR maybe back "around 12 months ago" they advertised and employed sufficient crew to start up the contract however leave the final recruitment until closer to the contract start date. Saves $$$$. Why have all crews employed on day 1 sitting around waiting?

They will get crew, I have no doubt about that. Not me on that sort of money but you can bet lots of dollars that there will be pilots out there happy to accept a job.

[josephfeatherweight]

Maybe.....

[Dashunder]

Maybe.....
And that MAYBE is very big and growing bigger by the day.

Proof will be in the pudding next week when AMSA expect Perth to have full coverage.

[FMTAfterburn]

Sar jet unavailable for tasking, and I hear that the Dornier leaves Perth tomorrow. Does anyone else have a problem with this?

[Dashunder]

Sar jet unavailable for tasking, and I hear that the Dornier leaves Perth tomorrow. Does anyone else have a problem with this?

The word is they don't have their AOC either

[Code.name]

Sar jet unavailable for tasking, and I hear that the Dornier leaves Perth tomorrow. Does anyone else have a problem with this?

Why wouldn't the jet be available for tasking? That sounds like gross negligence from AMSA & Cobham if they had no coverage!

[Dashunder]

Why wouldn't the jet be available for tasking? That sounds like gross negligence from AMSA & Cobham if they had no coverage!
You said it first.

[das Uber Soldat]

The 604 sim is going non stop in ml at the moment, or at least looks that way to me.

[Dashunder]

The 604 sim is going non stop in ml at the moment, or at least looks that way to me.
Getting Sim endorsements doesn't help get them over the line to be online in Perth. A little bit more to it than that.

[Supermouse3]

XNC was damaged today too, during drop tests the stores hit the lower engine cowl, little damage but i don't think CASA was happy...

[Slezy9]

XNC was damaged today too, during drop tests the stores hit the lower engine cowl, little damage but i don't think CASA was happy...

That's the second time one of the aircraft have been damaged during trials.... Not good.

[Code.name]

XNC was damaged today too, during drop tests the stores hit the lower engine cowl, little damage but i don't think CASA was happy...

So if a store can hit the engine cowl, what are the chances of a chute getting sucked into the intake? That would be a bad thing, right? Would the 604 recover from a engine failure at low level & low speed and be able to climb & return? Or should they be adding floats to it?

[Dashunder]

XNC was damaged today too, during drop tests the stores hit the lower engine cowl, little damage but i don't think CASA was happy...
How can they expect to do SAR and drop to people in distress if they can't get it right on training flights

[Capt Claret]

How can they expect to do SAR and drop to people in distress if they can't get it right on training flights

Let's all throw our hands in the air, give up, and walk away. :ugh:

[BAT74]

In the meantime what asset is online to respond to a SAR on the west coast? Why was the challenger not fully tested prior to delivery? Let us hope no lives lost over a dodgy contract.

[Dashunder]

In the meantime what asset is online to respond to a SAR on the west coast? Why was the challenger not fully tested prior to delivery? Let us hope no lives lost over a dodgy contract.
The answer to your first question is there isn't. As the the second question thats a very good question.

[AerocatS2A]

How can they expect to do SAR and drop to people in distress if they can't get it right on training flights
Isn't that the whole point of training flights? You know, to train?

[Dashunder]

Isn't that the whole point of training flights? You know, to train?
Indeed it is but when the aircraft keeps getting hit by the stuff they throw out indicates to me they haven't got it right.

[FMTAfterburn]

Ultimately there will be concessions made and procedures developed to throw something out with a reasonable level of safety, however this will mean the current array of AMSA stores will be cut back. Larger stores which are most useful for survivors will not be feasible, accuracy is assured to be well out of present tolerences. AMSA always wanted to be able to grow into bigger and a more varied range of despatchable items, including guided stores. We can forget about that. This is probably why they resisted employing experienced current operators, there would have been too many red flags raised too soon, only a token few made it across.

[josephfeatherweight]

This is probably why they resisted employing experienced current operators, there would have been too many red flags raised too soon, only a token few made it across.
Yes, this is a big part of the problem. And, they couldn't attract the right caliber of new blood either, with the package on offer. I'm not holding my breath...

[BAT74]

http://some.ly/KFqg8a

Wrong speeds, wrong cargo door, wrong aircraft. Border force might be getting some flash jets in the near future and AMSA will be scratching their heads wondering how they ended up with 3 clapped out Dash8s. Maybe it was the plan all along?

[Dashunder]

A week since the start of the CL604 contract in Perth and still no coverage....Hmm

[Code.name]

A week since the start of the CL604 contract in Perth and still no coverage....Hmm

Wait till the media finds out there is no coverage, or someone is missing & the families want to know what they did to to "temporarily" cover till the jets are ready.....

[BAT74]

Crab fisherman missing from boat off WA's Gascoyne coast - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-15/search-for-man-missing-from-crab-fishing-boat-off-shark-bay/7735532)

A dedicated search aircraft would be handy right about now. It is almost unforgivable that a gap in capability be on the west coast. Heads should roll.

[Dashunder]

Crab fisherman missing from boat off WA's Gascoyne coast - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-15/search-for-man-missing-from-crab-fishing-boat-off-shark-bay/7735532)

A dedicated search aircraft would be handy right about now. It is almost unforgivable that a gap in capability be on the west coast. Heads should roll.

Incomprehensible. 2 weeks ago there was coverage but we all know what happened then. But don't worry Cobham will have it sorted. Just don't ask them as you won't get an answer.

[Car RAMROD]

A dedicated search aircraft would be handy right about now. It is almost unforgivable that a gap in capability be on the west coast. Heads should roll.

The dedicated search aircraft didn't hang around very long searching for the FV Returner and the 3 POB last year. Didn't find anything during its search either.

A dedicated aircraft wasn't handy in that scenario!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but on the previous contract wasn't there only one dedicated aircraft based in WA? If so that is in my opinion a gap in capability too. Go missing off the Pilbara or Kimberley coast and your waiting for an aircraft from Perth or Darwin- a very long time. Thankfully there are local GA/offshore heli operators that get airborne quicker, not to mention find and retrieve this missing. But that might not last too long with the upcoming CASA rules, they seem to strangle the ability for the Tier 4 providers to provide a service.

[carguard]

Hey ,
Does any 1 know how I can get a job in any base ? As an observer ?
Are the applications stil open for mel?
Also what are the updates in the sar progress ?

[Slezy9]

Hey ,
Does any 1 know how I can get a job in any base ? As an observer ?
Are the applications stil open for mel?
Also what are the updates in the sar progress ?
After a strenuous search...

Vacancies - Careers | Cobham Aviation Services (http://www.cobhamaviationservices.com/careers/vacancies/)

Next time try google!

[Alice Kiwican]

Just wondering if anyone has been through the 604 First Officer recruitment process recently? Curious to know what sort of questions they asked and what sort of experience required as well?
Cheers

[Flyer4040]

Just usual questions about the challenges you had with your coworker
why do you wanna work for conham
ive been told the salary is 80k...
and I believe it’s between 40-60 hrs per month

[Maximum Thrust]

TMAAT and WWYD questions
Why Cobham?
Salary 90k
100-200 hours per year

[fury308]

Any intel on the psychometric testing for the 604 jobs?

[Caedus]

Resurrecting this thread since Cobham are recruiting for CL604 FO for a while now. Any one has intel on latest conditions and pay? Still around 90k flying about 100hrs a year?