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SpringHeeledJack
29th Nov 2014, 06:38
BBC News - Three-point turn may be dropped from UK driving test (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30249249)

At the moment these amendments are in the test phase, but to not have things such as 3 point turns and following road signs seems to me to be heading down the wrong road altogether (pun intended). Unless driverless cars are just around the corner, the skill sets of new drivers will be sorely lacking, or is it to pander to a demographic that just can't ordinarily pass a test that has stood for 70 odd years, otherwise it baffles me ?


SHJ

sitigeltfel
29th Nov 2014, 06:46
Three point turn........pah!

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SpringHeeledJack
29th Nov 2014, 07:09
That's a good example, but when one's steed is worth 150K and has a limited turning rake, urban manoeuvres are challenging. Is it just me, or has there been a massive rise in people doing 3-20 point turns in a roads (and inconveniencing all other motorists :mad: ) lately, even when there are options available to turn legally and safely nearby ?


SHJ

Krystal n chips
29th Nov 2014, 07:40
21st century progress.....

Dispense with road signs....

UK driving test to take new turns | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/28/uk-driving-test-turn-learner-driver-satnav-three-point)

bugged on the right
29th Nov 2014, 08:39
This is pretty much in keeping with the decline in the UK's education system. If you make the test too hard you don't get to boast a high success rate and level of civilisation. This will improve the statistics for unlicenced driver convictions so it's win, win, crime down as well.

Lord Spandex Masher
29th Nov 2014, 09:36
The DVSA said drivers may instead be asked to focus on more realistic everyday manoeuvres, such as reversing out of a parking bay

Reverse in you [email protected]!

mad_jock
29th Nov 2014, 10:28
Reverse in you [email protected]!

Which is exactly what they make you do in your HGV tests.

No 3 point turn in that though. Although it has been known to be done in an HGV.

My class one test I had to reverse into a parking space curb side which isn't in the syllabus. Got it first shot though.

Well the QTO wanted to get his lunch from the burger van. And as he said its a vital skill to have for all lorry drivers being able to park up safely next to a burger van. And he was right it has been used numerous times over the years.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
29th Nov 2014, 10:38
I don't suppose the motorcycle test will be dumbed down like this. The required 'U' turn in a narrow road without putting your feet down is a tad more demanding than a 3-point turn in a car.

Mechta
29th Nov 2014, 11:35
Mad Jock wrote:

Quote:
Reverse in you [email protected]!
Which is exactly what they make you do in your HGV tests.

Not much point driving an HGV nose in to a loading bay, unless you want to be the laughing stock of the factory/warehouse...

Having picked up a Hertz hire car in Berlin to drive to the Thielert factory near the Czech border, only to find 30 minutes into the journey that the Hertz supplied sat nav power lead was U/S, I'm a great believer in road signs and map reading. Fortunately I had bought a map of Germany at Luton Airport, out of curiosity more than anything, which proved to be a life saver.

A lot of motorists have no idea when it comes to judging the length & width of their cars or whether a gap is wide enough to get through. Having been 'teaching' Mechta Minor recently, I suggested to him that he should imagine lying down in a gap, and if he could do that, he could drive through it (we don't have a Jag Mk10).

west lakes
29th Nov 2014, 11:44
Though of course the 3 point turn was never part of the driving test!!

The requirement was to turn the car using forward and reverse gears and without hitting the kerb with the wheels.
It never mattered how many points there were!!

Mr Optimistic
29th Nov 2014, 12:04
well in my view the driving test in this country is ridiculously over involved and difficult. A conspiracy between vested interests to graft more cash hiding behind a bogus safety argument (not for the first time eh?). Make it shorter and easier and cheaper then you'll have fewer people attempting to drive without licence and insurance. If you think a tougher test will improve driving safety then you are one of nature's optimists.

Blues&twos
29th Nov 2014, 12:29
My pet hate that, being directed to park 'nose first' by car park attendants.

Driving dustcarts in my early driving days means I'm practically obsessed with reversing into places.

UniFoxOs
29th Nov 2014, 12:42
If you think a tougher test will improve driving safety then you are one of nature's optimists.

Want to make it easier for pilots, too?

G-CPTN
29th Nov 2014, 13:03
I watched a (female) motorist reversing into a perpendicular space (ie not parallel parking). She pulled out and repeated the manoeuvre at least half a dozen times, even though the adjacent vehicle drove away halfway through.

I wondered why she didn't just drive in forwards and then reverse out.

(I usually reverse into parking spaces - I plan which way will guarantee the easiest exit should the adjacent traffic change during my absence.)

Mechta
29th Nov 2014, 13:13
I watched a (female) motorist reversing into a perpendicular space (ie not parallel parking). She pulled out and repeated the manoeuvre at least half a dozen times, even though the adjacent vehicle drove away halfway through. I've see the same light aircraft take off, do a circuit and land, a dozen times or more in a day. Maybe she was just practicing too?

well in my view the driving test in this country is ridiculously over involved and difficult. A conspiracy between vested interests to graft more cash hiding behind a bogus safety argument (not for the first time eh?). Make it shorter and easier and cheaper then you'll have fewer people attempting to drive without licence and insurance. If you think a tougher test will improve driving safety then you are one of nature's optimists.

Absolute b*ll*cks!

Just an other number
29th Nov 2014, 15:33
I've asked before and I'll ask again.
Can somebody please show me the three points of a three point turn?

dazdaz1
29th Nov 2014, 15:51
I would imagine if the test required the use of a Sat Nav, being capable of executing a three point turn would be most appropriate.

G-CPTN
29th Nov 2014, 16:00
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dazdaz1
29th Nov 2014, 16:16
No problems of today's cars (front wheels) hitting the kerb, one hears the scraping of the lower fairing long before the wheels bump the kerb.

Windy Militant
29th Nov 2014, 17:51
That's something I've noticed a lot parking in motorway services, people driving in and running the front spoiler over the kerb when parking nose in.
I saw one at the new services on the A1M hooked on a kerb. It had slid over then dropped down behind the kerb as the tarmac on the pedestrian walk had sunk about an inch and a half leaving the kerb standing proud.
I was sitting in my own car drinking tea with the window open and heard a deal of revving and saw the first abortive attempt to undock. I was about to get out and go over and suggest the passengers get out to make it easier to get over the kerb when the guy used a lot more gas and with a lot of expensive crunching left the bay. There were several bits of plastic left behind but he didn't stop to check for damage, I couldn't see if there was anything hanging off as the way he turned out as he pulled away meant the front of the car was obscured from where I was sitting.

Mr Optimistic
29th Nov 2014, 19:24
Metcha, fine argument but no facts. I actually passed my first test in California where the kids are taught how to drive in high school. Typical bureaucratic always add more thinking which has produced constipation in our once vibrant and successful society. Produce paper, tick that box, but maybe challenge our own assumptions once in a while eh?

con-pilot
29th Nov 2014, 20:46
What is the big deal about the three point turn? Nobody taught me how to make one, I figured it out myself.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
29th Nov 2014, 21:10
My daughter, at age 3 decades ago in her pedal car, figured it out!

Nervous SLF
29th Nov 2014, 21:23
Reverse in you [email protected]!

Alas in the Town near me the vast majority of people drive into the car park spaces front first. Trying to reverse
into a parking bay especially at a roadside parking meter is fraught with danger as people don't understand
that you are going to reverse and so they come right up close behind you blocking your way. Indicating with
the left indicator and having reversing lights on means nothing to these people.

G-CPTN
29th Nov 2014, 22:15
There is a quicker method of changing direction.
From a stationary position parallel to the kerb, reverse on full lock until the rear of the car is close to the opposite kerb, then drive forwards on the full opposite lock and continue on your way.

Think of it as reversing into a 'perpendicular' parking space, then driving out in the opposite direction (or reversing into a gateway and driving away).

I don't know why it isn't taught.

The reverse J-turn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-turn):- DtYyXnJIKW4 is the dynamic version.

jimtherev
29th Nov 2014, 23:21
That's something I've noticed a lot parking in motorway services, people driving in and running the front spoiler over the kerb when parking nose in.
I saw one at the new services on the A1M hooked on a kerb.
Had to watch that with me old Citroen. No crunching as I arrived, but occasionally - when I forgot - came back to find the front skirt resting on a raised kerb after the suspension subsided front wheels completely unloaded. Had then to remember to wait until we'd pumped ourselves up again before reversing out.

Windy Militant
29th Nov 2014, 23:29
I've asked before and I'll ask again.
Can somebody please show me the three points of a three point turn?

Just remembered a mate of my brothers failing his driving test on the three point turn. When the examiner asked him to turn round in the road using forward and reverse gear etc. Our hero sizes up that this stretch of road is wide enough considering the lock on the Triumph Herald to do a one point turn! Oh well :hmm:

Krystal n chips
30th Nov 2014, 05:30
" Our hero sizes up that this stretch of road is wide enough considering the lock on the Triumph Herald to do a one point turn! Oh well

On a par with a beautifully performed chandelle I once witnessed....slight problem.....it was performed at about 300ft.... after a launch cable break.

Both our hero, quite unconcerned, and the instructor...white as a sheet...lived, thankfully.

Back to " Why using a sat nav may soon be considered an essential driving skill".... the logic behind this proposal being less than obvious if the intent is to train people to, erm, drive...safely.

ShyTorque
30th Nov 2014, 08:34
Windy, yes, drivers do get spoiled in that respect by the old Triumph front suspension setup. Same with the earlier Spitfires, the turning circle is 23 feet, 5 feet less than the old Leyland Mini. You dont often need to 3 point turn them except on the narrowest of roads.

Shame about the rear suspension though...a very different kettle of fish.

Dushan
30th Nov 2014, 15:19
What is the big deal about the three point turn? Nobody taught me how to make one, I figured it out myself.

In a 727?

G-CPTN
30th Nov 2014, 15:41
WRT the three-point turn, isn't the wording 'by means of forward and reverse gears'?

It is a manoeuvre to check ability to control the vehicle at low speed and in restricted space.

Ani Fule can engage gear and set off along a level road.

Also why they include a hill start and parallel parking.

Even cars with automatic gears require the use of the handbrake for those manoeuvres.

Dushan
30th Nov 2014, 15:55
Also why they include a hill start and parallel parking.

Even cars with automatic gears require the use of the handbrake for those manoeuvres.


Mine doesn't.

ShyTorque
30th Nov 2014, 16:34
Nor one of my cars. The brakes are designed hold for a couple of seconds to save you having to be so skilled as to use a complicated item like a handbrake!

The "complicated" part is remembering that the gear select goes forward for reverse, backwards to go forwards. German logic!

JEM60
30th Nov 2014, 16:59
I was a Driving Instructor for 39 years, and been retired 11. No such thing as a 3 point turn. That is just the colloquial name for what used to be called 'The Manoeuvre'. It had to be done using forward and reverse gears, as earlier stated, but it was wrong to say that the number of 'points' was irrelevant. It had to be done in the shortest reasonable number having in mind width of road, type of car etc., It could well be five movements, but was unlikely to be in a road that would require more, given the time allowed for the test.
Before I retired, it was not necessary to do all 4 excercises. Parallel park, emergency stop, reverse round a corner, and the turn in the road, it being up to the individual examiner as to which one was omitted, but 3 of the four had to be done, so there have been many candidates who have taken and passed the test without the turn in the road. Nothing really new here.

Dushan
30th Nov 2014, 17:07
reverse round a corner,

Why would you encourage and allow reversing around the corner? Probably the most dangerous maneuver one could execute, right after backing out of a driveway onto an active street. Both illegal here.

Blues&twos
30th Nov 2014, 20:03
Reversing round a corner "dangerous"? Not allowed?

That would have made my dustcart (garbage truck) round very interesting indeed. And my delivery driving, some years later.

It's no more hazardous than reversing anywhere else.

austerwobbler
30th Nov 2014, 20:27
While we are on the subject of hill starts and using the hand brake have you tried it in a manual Volvo XC90 ? The hand brake is actually a foot operated ratchet brake pedal like the old American cars had and it is positioned to the left of the clutch pedal ! " think about it "

Mrs Austerwobbler has trouble getting her head round it :confused:

ExSp33db1rd
30th Nov 2014, 21:13
The hand brake is actually a foot operated ratchet brake pedal like the old American cars had and it is positioned to the left of the clutch pedal ! " I have one of those, albeit in an automatic, so it's not quite so difficult, fools people to whom I lend the car to, tho', when I forget to tell them !

Caution - Aviation content.

In a 727? Was once co-pilot on a 707 when the Captain took the wrong turn taxying out for take off at New York ( yes, I know, I was supposed to be helping, but it seemed correct to me, too, at the time !) He told me to put my feet firmly under my seat - so as not to be tempted to touch the brakes when going backwards, viz. make the aircraft sit on its tail - and then selected full power reverse on the two outboard engines. We executed a perfect 3-point turn and went back the way we had come ! ATC only commented that we should have asked permission to run up the engines at that point on the airfield, I think they had only seen the dust we raised and not noticed the reversing exercise, it was a busy night, we were no. 67 for take off, hence the complicated taxy route that had misled us.

Carry0nLuggage
30th Nov 2014, 22:54
G-CPTN - Effectively it is (or was). Drive past minor road (gives you a chance to observe situation in minor road) and stop. Reverse round corner until clear of major road. Drive off the way you came after the usual turn drill.

Easy peasy.

Even easier is the Banjo turn though that needs a good understanding of your turning circle.

Dushan - If this manoeuvre is so dangerous, why are on street parking bays angled for nose in parking?

con-pilot
30th Nov 2014, 23:25
In a 727?

If the ramp or taxiway was wide enough, but too small or narrow to make a normal 180 on, you could make a three point turn in a 727. I didnít have to do them a lot, but there were a few occasions I had to. It helped if you had someone the ground directing you, the times I did it I had the FE go out and do the directing.

For a large aircraft, the 727 had a very short turning radius.

Mechta
1st Dec 2014, 01:27
Mr Optimist wrote:Metcha, fine argument but no facts.Ok, a few facts:



British roads, particularly through towns were, in the main designed hundreds of years before motor vehicles came on the scene, so are much narrower and more congested. One lost motorist, or one making a hash of a manoeuvre, like our Lamborghini driver in the video, can easily create grid lock.
What is learned before the test is taught, monitored and corrected by the instructor, thus instilling predictable behaviour. Anything self taught after the driving test is going to be a particular driver's interpretation of what should be done, hence it is more random.
The majority of UK cars have manual gearboxes, so it is important that people are able to control their vehicle properly. Someone repeatedly stalling their car will again cause gridlock.
Parallel parking, reversing round a corner and the 'three point turn' all ensure that a driver is able to accurately position their car and is aware of its size so they can drive safely and expeditiously, thus causing the minimum of inconvenience to others.
Britain has a lot of roundabouts, which are far less common in the USA. Again, skill is required to negotiate roundabouts without delaying or endangering others.
UK fatal road accident rate compared to that of the USA and the rest of the world: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate



My guess is that you would be in a minority of one, certainly amongst UK Ppruners, if polled for a major simplification of the UK driving test.

By the way, Mechta Minor, who started driving at the end of August, took his driving test last Monday. I am pleased to say that despite having lessons with me between his professional lessons, he still managed to pass first time. Thank you to all the Ppruners who offered their suggestions and experiences in this thread: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/546899-teaching-your-sprog-drive-anecdotes-advice.html He and I are still talking to each other, and the learning experience was nothing like as traumatic as what some of you encountered!

Windy Militant
1st Dec 2014, 19:46
Reversing round corners is definitely asking for a pine over coat however the turning by reversing into a side road does not seem to be taught or tested these days seeing the amount of people who drive onto the side road and then reverse into the main carriage way.
I suspect you've never ridden a motorcycle or you wouldn't ask why reversing out of a drive or side road is such a dangerous manoeuvre.
And Street parking bays are angled for nose in parking because there are too many lazy impatient cnuts about. Due to the electrification of the Great Western Railway line I now have to drive past one of these abominations on a regular basis until April and it's like bloody Russian roulette every time as none of the above cnuts appears to be able to look behind them when pulling out! I have a set of Fiam air horns somewhere around the place, now might be a good time to dig them out and get them working! :mad:

vulcanised
1st Dec 2014, 21:02
Whilst on the subject of driving licences..........

I have to renew mine for my 70th birthday. As far as I can see with a quick glance I can do most of thenecessary online, except they want a photo :eek:

Can I do a 'selfie' (never thought I'd use that expression) and print it at the proscribed size on a sheet of plain paper, or is there more to it than that?

Carry0nLuggage
1st Dec 2014, 22:21
For starters:

On Merseyside, the normal rules for box junctions are reversed.

jimtherev
1st Dec 2014, 22:55
Whilst on the subject of driving licences..........

I have to renew mine for my 70th birthday.... they want a photo :eek:

Can I do a 'selfie' (never thought I'd use that expression) and print it at the proscribed size on a sheet of plain paper, or is there more to it than that?
Did this recently for 'er and me. Good likenesses, both, plain light-coloured wall. 600 dpi.
Mine was accepted, 'ers rejected. Background unacceptable.




From which I deduce: yer pays yer money, yer takes yer choice.

Blues&twos
1st Dec 2014, 23:00
Windy M, I suspect there may be a misunderstanding. 'Reversing round a corner' is usually intended to mean 'backing into a side road from a through road' (that's what I was referring to) rather than actually reversing round a bend in a main road, which may well be quite alarming to approaching traffic, and isn't a manoeuvre which is taught for the UK driving test!

cockney steve
2nd Dec 2014, 00:01
Mine was accepted, 'ers rejected. Background unacceptable.




From which I deduce: yer pays yer money, yer takes yer choice.

Ah, well, Jim, If you was wearing a Dog Collar, your background would obviously stand scrutiny.......However,if Mrs Jim lacked such adornment, why, she could have been any sort of scurrilous trollop. :}

Windy Militant
2nd Dec 2014, 00:07
actually reversing round a bend in a main road, which may well be quite alarming to approaching traffic, and isn't a manoeuvre which is taught for the UK driving test!
It probably will be before too long! :rolleyes:
I guessed that's what you meant but couldn't resist a pop at the idle buggers who can't be arsed to reverse into a parking space. It's a pet hate of mine along with the idiots who insist on parking right next to you when the car park is empty.
No offence meant but if you will feed us the lines it's hard to resist!

spekesoftly
2nd Dec 2014, 01:03
As far as I can see with a quick glance I can do most of the necessary online, except they want a photo I've also recently been looking at this. If I understand the DVLA website correctly, you don't need to submit a photograph if you hold a current passport. DVLA can use the same photo and signature that was submitted with the passport application.

Assuming you passed your driving test before 1st January 1997, you will also have grandfather rights to drive certain other classes of vehicle.



B+E (http://www.drivex.co.uk/driving-licence-info/#BE%20info) Car and trailer
C1 (http://www.drivex.co.uk/driving-licence-info/#C1%20info) Light goods vehicle between 3500kg MAM and 7500kg MAM
C1+E (http://www.drivex.co.uk/driving-licence-info/#C1E%20info) Light goods vehicle between 3500kg MAM and 7500kg MAM with trailer
D1 (http://www.drivex.co.uk/driving-licence-info/#D1%20info) Minibus with up to 16 passenger seats
D1+E (http://www.drivex.co.uk/driving-licence-info/#D1E%20info) Minibus with up to 16 passenger seats and trailer


Unless you specifically apply (by post only) to keep these categories on your new licence after the age of 70, then you will only be legally entitled to drive category B vehicles (cars and light vans).

Just some points to consider, and happy to be corrected if I've misunderstood the process.

G-CPTN
2nd Dec 2014, 09:17
Unless you specifically apply (by post only) to keep these categories on your new licence after the age of 70, then you will only be legally entitled to drive category B vehicles (cars and light vans).
You will also need to submit to a medical and an eye-test - which will need to be repeated (annually?).
I decided that the ongoing cost wasn't worth it.

jimtherev
2nd Dec 2014, 15:23
Ah, well, Jim, If you was wearing a Dog Collar, your background would obviously stand scrutiny.......However,if Mrs Jim lacked such adornment, why, she could have been any sort of scurrilous trollop. :}
I just read your conclusion to her very self, and her comment was, er, rather too strong for these hallowed pages.
So perhaps you're right.