USALPA Troubles

[surplus1]

Lawsuit pits pilot vs. pilot


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Delta contract limits regionals


By James Pilcher, [email protected]
The Cincinnati Enquirer
For the second time in a year, Comair pilots and their union find themselves in a conflict attracting national attention. But this time, the opposition isn't management. It's each other.

A lawsuit by three pilots at the Erlanger-based regional airline against the international offices of the Air Line Pilots Association resumed in the federal courts last month after settlement talks failed.

Comair pilot Dan Ford is suing his union for allowing Delta pilots to negotiate limits on jobs like his.
(Tony Jones photo)
| ZOOM |
In a case watched closely by the airline industry, a group of pilots calling themselves the Regional Jet Defense Coalition accused ALPA of failing to represent them fairly and equally by allowing Delta Air Line pilots to negotiate limits on regional jet flying.

Such job protection, or “scope,” clauses are becoming common in pilots' contracts. Mainline carriers want to expand market share with smaller, cheaper regional jets. But their pilots view regional jets as a threat to their jobs.

“These brand-name scope clauses have evolved into a remote control device, and there are no illusions that they protect our pilot group at Comair, even though we had no say in putting them into play,” said Dan Ford, president of the coalition and a 14-year Comair veteran from Burlington. “And the union that we are all paying our dues into ...is refusing to prevent the mainline pilots from limiting our livelihoods.”

The suit could have immense implications throughout the industry, but especially at Delta, with its large fleet of regional jets.

Delta and Comair officials would only say the suit was an ALPA matter. Officials with Delta's branch of ALPA wouldn't talk.

US Airways is also in a bitter fight with its pilots over regional jets, which management sees as the carrier's salvation. Squabbles have erupted at United and America West, while pilots at American Airlines, represented by a different union, also have struggled with the issue.

“If this suit were successful, I don't know what ALPA would do,” said Andrew D. McClintock, an Atlanta-based airline labor lawyer. “These scope limitations are becoming ever-stronger and more prevalent sources of dispute.”

The suit seeks an injunction against the Delta scope clause, which has limited how much Delta can rely on regional jets and how many 70-seat regional jets Delta can buy before adding more mainline jobs. The suit t also seeks more say for regional pilots, as well as more than $100 million in punitive and compensatory damages from the union.

It was filed in April 2001, soon after Comair's pilots went on strike for 89 days. The suit is being heard by a federal magistrate in New York, who has not set a trial date.

ALPA International spokesman John Mazor said the union believes the case “is baseless and without merit” and that the union would be filing for summary judgment and dismissal in mid-June.

“This issue needs to be brought up with the National Mediation Board, not the federal courts,” Mr. Mazor said, referring to the board that oversees labor issues in the airline and railroad industry. “I will say that we are in the process of conducting an examination of the scope issue.”

Regional Airline Association president Debby McElroy said such scope clauses have already hurtregional service. She said American Eagle stopped service to seven cities because scope clauses at the mainline limited regional jet flying.

“This is no longer a theoretical situation,” Ms. McElroy said.

Several pilots at Atlantic Southeast Airlines, a Delta regional subsidiary like Comair, are planning to join the suit within a month.

“There's always been this underlying tone of you're not as good as we are from the mainline pilots who run things at ALPA,” said Ken Cooksey, an ASA pilot who was twice elected chairman of ASA's ALPA branch. “This issue caused me to drop out of union activity entirely, and it needs to change.”

Said Mr. Ford: “We're not out to break the union, and we're not anti-ALPA. But a member is a member is a member, no matter who he flies for. That's why we're in this, not the money.”

[ironbutt57]

Hope they have good luck in their efforts to sort this out....the mainline ALPO pilots have been screwing their regional counterparts for many years...it's about time this happened.:) :) :)

[A-V-8R]

Actually, Ironbutt, or may call you affectionately Lardass. it is the other way around.

Most of the Regional people have been screwing the major carrier pilots for YEARS!!!!!

The commuter dogs largely fail to put a price on their labor. They work for **** wages, they largely don't unionize, and they don't get the one-for-all all-for-one attitude that it takes to get and earn a good contract. They think that they only use for toe brakes is to stop the aircraft.

As far I'm concerned they deserve their 14,000 bucks a year starting wage as a co-pilot, they deserve their Stand Up Overnights, and they deserve their 16 hour duty day....

Because they don't give a rats ass about making it better!!!

ALPA did a regional jet study at UAL; the conclusion was that UAL could fly the regional jets at the same cost because of the economies of scale....(like hedging fuel, for one) that littler companies cannot do....

By the way, I was a commuter dog for 15 years. I was around when ALPA first organized Council 38. I filed the very first grievance about management flying the line and won it.

Furthermore, the RJ's aren't regional any more. 90 Seats? What comes tommorrow, 176 seats RJ's? What do you do when someone like United furloughs 843 pilots and gives the routes to the Regionals?

What do you do when the United buys the aircraft for the Regionals and pays for the training of their pilots?

For every 4 RJ's delivered to the United Regionals, the mainline airline looses 1 more station.

I'm all for buying up the United Express carriers, recalling our pilots, and laying off the Regional pilots. Staple them to the bottom, my ass. No union on the property, fire 'em.

[ironbutt57]

Forgot one point av8-r....when you mainline guys go on strike, they also pay strike assesments out of their lousy salaries so you monkeys can strut your stuff, quite often your strike pay is more than the regional bloke's whole paycheck.....then when they do get good equipment, you limit their growth, then when you get furloughed, you go after their jobs.....been there lived it before...no sympathy for mainline pilot's woes......:mad: :mad: :mad:

[DownIn3Green]

AV-Ate One:

How's the kool-aid from your perspective?

Ironbutt didn't deserve that, nor do the commuter/regional pilots you have mentioned.

Do those guys know your feelings when you ask for their jumpseat, or are you one of those arrogant "mainline" Walter Mitty's who thinks a jumpseat on a lowley commuter is his ALPO given right?

Grow Up!!!

[lou ross]

Well, Mr. A-V-8R,
(and in your case the term "Mr." is quite loose). In the late 60's it was ALPA that forced the airlines to hire third pilots as featherbedders on the new 737's.
It was also an ALPA pilot that flew a DC-8 (pax flight) from KSEA (or was it KPDX) to KIAD at 10,000' because the "winds were more favorable".
And ALPA at United decided for a while (early 70's) that they would stop on the taxi-way any time a check list was being read before take-off and after landing. They also decided it was necessary to detour all thunderstorms by 500 miles. This was so they could force United to sign a 60 hour flight contract.
Another pilot on departing KLAX to KORD told the flight attendants they couldn't serve liquor on that flight because upon checking the liquor licenses on the a/c, the license from 2 states that the flight was going to fly over had expired. That pilot was, well, you guessed it, with ALPA.
ALPA was instrumental in burying Frontier Airlines and causing all those pilots (also ALPA) to lose their jobs.
Just how professional is ALPA? Well, if you went to the local meeting in the 50's-80's, with all the cursing and threats laid out, you thought you had walked into the wrong room into a meeting of a bunch of thugs. In fact, it was some ALPA pilots that were killing deer, cut off their heads, broke into the homes of dissenting members, and placed the heads in the bedrooms.
A-V-8R, you fit right in. l.r.

[A-V-8R]

Stick to the point, Lou.

The point is that you have to put a price on your labor.

Look into the financials of the commuters and read the analysts reports on the Regionals here in the US.

An awful lot of money is being made with sweatshop conditions.

Because there is a subgroup of pilots that will work under those conditions without demanding a fair wage and reasonable conditions.

Remember, I spent 15 years in the Regionals, and it was a dog eat dog place to work. But in time, we made it a fairly decent place to work.

ALPA is absolutely nothing without members. It is the collective efforts of the members that gets things done.

If a company wants to kill a Union, all they have to do is act like they have one. The Union as a labor organization will die on the vine.

Again, ALPA itself does nothing.

It is the efforts of it's members that get things done. Period.

Regional guys, in five years you will be flying the equivilent of a 737/Small DC-9. Shouldn't you earn the same amount of money?

If the Regionals want to improve their renumeration, they can do it if they want to. But I see darn few that want to more than just complain.

Tonight from JFK to MIA I had a USAIR Express pilot in the jumpseat. (At least until the door closed, then he has to sit in the back until some security things are changed.)

All he did was complain about his pay and lack of upgrades. We did talk that in the end it his him who sets his pay. I think he realized what I was saying, but he doesn't have a clue of what to do next.

For all of you, it is not the company or the union that sets your wages, it is the employees. If no one comes to work, the wages go up. Too many people looking for work, the wages go down. Period.

[surplus1]

Well A-V-8R, you've done yourself proud with that little speech. Little did I know that the post would ferret out the self-anointed and pompous president of the Hate Regional Pilots Club. Its know-little attitudes like yours that now have USALPA facing potential destruction.

You are of course entitled to you opinion, but you are not entitled to skew the facts and make false statements. You're rude, arrogant and poorly informed but that's typical of your peer group in the US mainline carriers so I shouldn't be surprised.

While I'm sure you don't care you should nevertheless know that there are 17 US regional airlines and 8 Canadian regional airlines that are unionized and belong to ALPA. Additionally there are several more represented by the IBT. Virtually ALL regional carriers in the US and Canada are unionized. Together, the over 12,000 union pilots (in the US carriers) along with our Canadian brothers and IBT brethren are quite proud of our unionism. Since you appear to be from UAL which touts itself on being the most "union" of US carriers, you should know more about the union to which you belong as well as others. You should also not assume that others are as ill-informed about who belongs to unions as you appear to be.

All of the "bad" contracts that you accuse regional pilots of having are contracts that were negotiated by ALPA which has made little effort to do better and, more often than not, has consistently worked to lower the expectations and minimize the efforts of regional pilot members to achieve better contracts, while taking their dues money and claiming to "represent" them.

Regional pilots have never been in a position to "screw major carrier pilots" as you claim. In contrast, mainline pilots have consistently worked, within the union and outside the union, against the interests of regional members. Your predatory behavior is legendary and you often brag about it. European pilots may not know this for they don't behave towards fellow airmen the way that you and your peers do and, in most cases, they don't suffer from illusions of grandeur based only on the size of the equipment they pilot.

Your comment about the purpose of toe brakes apparently refers to your pride in the asinine behavior recently demonstrated by your group. It cost your now foundering company hundreds of millions of dollars and inconvenienced millions of your passengers, all in pursuit of pricing yourselves out of the markets you serve. Such irresponsible action is nothing to be proud of but based on your expressed attitude, why should a dog like me expect more from a mainline jackass? Too bad your company didn't have the courage to take you to court and make you pay for your illegal activities.

What do you do when United furloughs 843 pilots and uses subcontractors to replace you on routes that you have helped to make unprofitable? You give concessions and return some of the money you extorted from the company. That's what you do. But you won't do that. Instead you'll tell us all what a great "union" airline you are and call us names, while you let your junior pilots suffer the price of your greed. You've done it before and you're doing it again.

While you're at it, why don't you give us a lecture on how you planned to shaft your union brothers at USAirways had the merger gone through? Whey don't you tell how much you did to help your union brothers when your company destroyed Air Wisconsin? Give us the real history of your predatory behavior.

You buy aircraft for the regionals that subcontract with UAL and you pay for their training? Would you mind naming the airlines that you allege you do this for?

Perhaps you could explain why, wise and powerful and unionized as you are, you were dumb enough to allow the subcontracting to which you now object. Maybe you could tell us why the great contract that you negotiated, compared to the second class contracts that we have, contains a Scope clause that you can't enforce? Lay it on the table know-it-all; I'm sure we'd all like to share that information.

What a pity that you find it necessary to become a public embarrassment to the thousands of honorable United pilots many of us knows. Congratulations! You've succeeded with flying colors.

_____________________________________
For those airline pilots that would like more information on the issues and the lawsuit mentioned in the article, you can read the details of the complaints and the legal action on the RJDC website at www.rjdefense.com

[DownIn3Green]

One other thing AV,

Nice signature. Is that a precursor of your mental stability?

[surplus1]

RJDC Update
May 6, 2002
Discussions with ALPA End. Comair Litigation to Resume, and Suit on Behalf of ASA Pilots to be Brought

Since October there has been a dialog between counsel in an effort to establish a process by which our disputes may be resolved in a fair and equitable manner. However, ALPA's egregious actions at US Airways and their refusal to guarantee little more than a series of meetings has precluded further discussions at this time. Consequently, the current litigation will now resume and an additional suit on behalf of the ASA pilots will be filed shortly.

Number of Plaintiffs Expected to Grow

When the first suit against ALPA was filed last year, it was hoped that legal action would give ALPA the impetus necessary to change its conduct. However, ALPA's egregious actions at USAirways and impending mainline negotiations at Delta indicate that lasting harm will soon befall the ASA and Comair pilots. In keeping with our long-standing commitment to ensure that every affected pilot is afforded the opportunity to be made whole for any damages, all ASA and Comair pilots will soon be given the opportunity to add their names as plaintiffs to a lawsuit against ALPA. Additional details will be forthcoming shortly.

RJDC Road Shows

As our efforts enter into a new and more critical phase, the RJDC will host a series of road shows to brief all affected pilots on the latest developments and personally answer any questions. The first road show will be May 10th in CVG in the Nav Room, Terminal 1, and another will be held in Atlanta on May 20th (location and times will be announced shortly). Dallas and Orlando road shows will be scheduled in June. Please make every effort to attend.

In Wake of Small Jet Agreement with ALPA, US Airways Management Demands Concessions from Turboprop Pilots and Announces Furlough Plans

Last week, the full impact of ALPA’s bad faith and predatory bargaining at US Airways became painfully apparent to the pilots at Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA. Management not only announced the phase-out of much of it’s obsolete turbo-prop fleet, but also made demands for substantial wage and benefit reductions. While "regional" job losses caused by the retirement of the turbo-props is the direct consequence of ALPA’s diversion of their small jet replacements to Potomac, the exclusion of the "regional" representatives from the negotiations also raises serious questions as to all the elements included in the mainline bargaining equation.

While it can be argued that management’s demands are draconian, they are only following ALPA’s lead. ALPA’s predatory actions directed against its own "regional" members sends a clear message to management. The fact that management’s concessionary demands come only two weeks after they had agreed to staff Potomac Air exclusively with furloughed mainline pilots, all at captain’s pay, strongly suggests that the Express pilots are expected to finance mainline’s sweetheart deal. The primary purpose of ALPA’s Constitution and By-laws is to protect the rights and interests of the union’s members. When ALPA’s leadership deliberately ignores the union’s Constitution and seeks to exclude "regional" pilots from the bargaining process, there inevitably is a reason.
Delta MEC Loses First Scope Grievance, Will Desperate Bargaining Follow?

On April 26, an arbitrator ruled that Delta management was within its rights to exercise the "force majeure" provisions of the Delta contract and furlough surplus mainline pilots. Presumably, the arbitration award will set the precedent for other force majeure grievances as well. While the ruling may grant temporary relief from harmful scope ratios, it does not abrogate the other scope restrictions imposed upon ASA and Comair, such as the 50-seat limit (excluding 57 CRJ-700’s) and numerous route restrictions.

More importantly, the arbitrator’s ruling does nothing to address ALPA’s predatory bargaining and, in fact, increases the likelihood that the mainline union leadership will seek to use the jobs and flying of ASA’s and Comair’s pilots as bargaining capital to shore up their deteriorating bargaining position. As we have just witnessed at US Airways, the mainline union leadership will look to "regional" pilots to pay for their previous contractual mistakes.

Both Delta’s fleet plan and industry forecasts indicate that, absent mainline scope restrictions, within a few years ASA and Comair’s combined fleet may exceed 500 aircraft and employ more than 5000 pilots. It is anticipated that the Delta MEC will attempt to reallocate system flying, while expecting the ASA and Comair pilots to "share" the economic burden as well. When ALPA permits the mainline pilot leadership to unilaterally engage in predatory bargaining and negotiate agreements binding upon ASA and Comair pilots, not only is our growth affected, but our current jobs, pay, and workrules could very well become part of the bargaining equation.

A Union's Legal Duty, Then and Now

Contrary to what our critics may claim, the central issue raised by our litigation is the union’s duty to represent both the majority and minority of its members fairly and equitably. As our suit contends, both the method and substance of ALPA’s predatory bargaining violate the union’s legal duty to the ASA and Comair pilots.

Many ALPA members, including the union’s leadership, apparently fail to realize that the landmark legal case establishing the union’s legal Duty of Fair Representation (DFR) was fundamentally a "scope" dispute (See Steele v. Louisville & Nashville RR.) In 1942, the railroad unions used their bargaining authority to create a "preferred" class of worker (white) while unilaterally stripping the African-American employees of their employment rights.

For example, the table below illustrates the similarities between the railroad union’s discriminatory "scope" and ALPA’s predatory mainline scope of today:

Louisville & Nashville RR (1942) ALPA’s Mainline Scope (2002)
Adversely affected members not given notice or opportunity to be heard "Regional" pilots denied the right to participate in mainline scope negotiations.
Contract designed to restrict employment of minorities. Mainline scope limits the size of "regional" airlines and the number of "regional" pilots.
Created "preferred" class of employees Mainline pilots unrestricted by scope. New mainline furlough protections grant special employment rights.
Only "preferred" employees may be assigned to certain routes. Route and market restrictions imposed on "regional" flying.
Number of "undesirable" employees limited to 50% At US Airways, only 50% of non-Potomac RJ vacancies can be filled by "regional" pilots.
All new vacancies filled by "preferred" employees. At US Airways, 100% of Potomac vacancies reserved for furloughed mainline pilots.
Union reserved the right to negotiate for further restrictions. "Regional" restrictions part of every mainline labor agreement and controlled by mainline pilots.




In the Supreme Court’s landmark ruling, the Court made it clear that certain types of union activities violated the union’s duty to protect all its members:

 "The fair interpretation of the statutory language is that the organization chosen to represent a craft is to represent all its members, the majority as well as the minority, and it is to act for and not against those whom it represents."

 "We think that Congress …did not intend to confer plenary power upon the union to sacrifice, for the benefit of its members, rights of the minority of the craft, without imposing on it any duty to protect the minority."

 "These purposes would hardly be attained if a substantial minority of the craft was denied the right to have its interests considered at the conference table and if the final result of the bargaining process were to be the sacrifice of the interests of the minority by the action of a representative chosen by the majority."

 "So long as a labor union assumes to act as the statutory representative of a craft, it cannot rightly refuse to perform the duty, which is inseparable from the power of representation conferred upon it, to represent the entire membership of the craft."

While ALPA’s attitudes toward its "regional" members are not racist, they are indeed arbitrary, discriminatory, and in bad faith. As the law states, the ASA and Comair pilots are entitled to seek judicial remedies as appropriate for breach of that duty.

When you hear someone say that our litigation is without merit or somehow inappropriate, keep in mind that both Congress and the Courts intended to give union members legal recourse when the majority seeks to prey upon the minority. Like the railway workers of sixty years before, we expect our union to protect its members, not restrict them. As the Supreme Court said, the union must act for, not against those whom it represents.

Upcoming RJDC Publications

 RJDC Briefing Pack
 RJDC Plaintiff’s Pack
***END***

[411A]

All ALPA ever wanted/wants now is the money from dues.
ALPA guys at Continental walked....Continental hires replacement guys...Continental now very successful...ALPA now says, "welcome guys, back into the fold, send cash please":rolleyes:
The story never changes with these turkeys.;)

[ironbutt57]

Surplus 1 nice post....av8r is gone quiet.....

[DownIn3Green]

AV must be busy grabbing someone by the throat or else drowning his ever bubbly personality with longnecks...

[Crusty Ol Cap'n]

Guys, if you are happy with your pay and conditions then I say good luck to you, but don't knock the people who find it necessary to unionise in order to improve their lot. Tomorrow YOU could be in mainline trying to maintain a standard rather than building hours at rack rates.

[A-V-8R]

DownIn3Green

Actually, still here, just flying and don't have a regular schedule to hit the 'net....For the next four days posts will be irregular.....Really don't like this domestic USA flying but because of legalities they dropped a London trip and substituted this domestic trip...

Still can't seem to find the words that to express to you and others that it is not ALPA that negotiates the contracts, but the local people from the airline that do the work...From the contract negotiations that I have been involved in, they have ALWAYS be the the product of local pilots, ALPA just provided the contracts of other airlines so we could see where the average was.

I'll try another allegory. Here in the US the United States Army they have switched their recruiting logo from "Be All You Can Be" to "An Army of One." Really, that is all a Union is. ALPA is not a omnipotent goverment, but the "glue" that holds individual airlines together for labor problems. The Union is the power of each individual with each other.

Still think that MOST regional pilots don't have the balls to improve their working conditions. Allthough as this thread progresses I realize at least the guys who are filing the Lawsuit are at least apart in that they picked up the ball and and started to do something, which is a refresher from the norm. I don't agree with what they do, but at least those FEW individuals are doing something.

Somehow I would like to turn this thread from Unions being the problem to that of corrupt Management being the problem. And uneducated/weak/ pilots enabling their abuse of their employees.

To me, the regional pilots in employment plight of low wages and poor working conditions is a classic case of the abused enabling the abuser. No different than when a wife lets her husband hit her the second time....

bh

[A-V-8R]

DownIn3Green...

By the way, my signature refers to how in this state, Massachusetts, women remove their husbands from the marital home......Perhaps you haven't been divorced yet, but a restraining order is used to remove a husband from his house. It takes less than 24 hours.....Otherwise, it would take six-eight weeks for a Court hearing, plus you would have to pay for her court appearance...at least here in Massachussetts. You and I clearly have differences, but I hope you never experience getting thrown out of your house on a subterfuge........because even if you were the model husband, there is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

[surplus1]

I regret I had to come at you so hard in my reply to your first post. With the original message I did not intend to start an argument but only to inform. You replied with what I could only view as an attack. I learned a very long time ago than any aggressive maneuver by an "unfriendly" must produce an even more aggressive response or you'll be listening from the other world as they read your eulogy. You left me no choice but to turn into to you head-on an arm all weapons. I'm hoping that with dialogue we can come to understand each other if not agree.

I've been a unionized pilot for 90% of my airline career (which I know spans a time frame that at least equals yours) and resented strongly your allegation that regional pilots were mostly non-union. The regional airline that I am now associated with has been in ALPA for 18 years and my own union membership exceeds 30 yrs (with captain status) in both IFALPA and USALPA. You can see why I object to being called non-union.

Still can't seem to find the words that to express to you and others that it is not ALPA that negotiates the contracts, but the local people from the airline that do the work...From the contract negotiations that I have been involved in, they have ALWAYS be the product of local pilots, ALPA just provided the contracts of other airlines so we could see where the average was.

Coming from the perspective of a UAL pilot, which I presume you to be, I can understand why you would say that and it would be true if the ALPA treated all member groups equally. ALPA national does not attempt to manipulate the UALMEC. You are too big and have too much money so they'll not risk your ire. However, the story is quite different in the "regional" airlines that USALPA represents. Local pilots still sit at the table but contract administrators and national officials get themselves involved whenever their agenda deems it necessary and there is much pressure and manipulation involved. ALPA national's role is quite different from what is experienced at a large airline like UAL or DAL.

Really, that is all a Union is. ALPA is not a omnipotent government, but the "glue" that holds individual airlines together for labor problems. The Union is the power of each individual with each other. .

While it is true that "the union is the power of each individual", in the case of the small airlines in ALPA the national union is indeed an omnipotent government. It controls the money and uses it freely to impose its will on those that it can intimidate. Only the big guys (UAL, DAL, NWA, AAA, CAL and the like) are able to call their own shots. I'm not surprised that you don't know this. You wouldn't unless you've been active in the governing bodies or walked a mile in our moccasins.

You must also consider that the only "official" bargaining agent is the ALPA. MEC's are internal units and have no independent legal status. Although the UAL MEC may act with autonomy due to its size, ALPA is legally responsible for everything that it does. The power is ALPA's and the responsibility is ALPA's. Therefore legally it is ALPA that negotiates the contracts.

[b]Still think that MOST regional pilots don't have the balls to improve their working conditions. Allthough as this thread progresses I realize at least the guys who are filing the Lawsuit are at least apart in that they picked up the ball and started to do something, which is a refresher from the norm. I don't agree with what they do, but at least those FEW individuals are doing something.

Well, I still think you're wrong. Regional pilots do have the cojones to do what it takes and more often than not are prevented from doing it by ALPA national. My airline is the first regional in ALPA to strike (89 days) and I'm here to tell you that ALPA had to be fought as much as the Company to get it done.

The principals in the lawsuit happen to be from my airline (although I am not one of them). The case is complex, but in my opinion they have every right to sue and ALPA's actions or lack justifies the cause thereof. ALPA openly supports and aids the activities that put our careers in jeopardy. At USAirways, ALPA aids and abets the USAir MEC to do even more against other ALPA members than it has aided DAL to do against us. It's shameful.

Somehow I would like to turn this thread from Unions being the problem to that of corrupt Management being the problem. And uneducated/weak/ pilots enabling their abuse of their employees.

I shall work very hard to prevent you from turning the thread in that direction. It is not about corrupt management. This thread is about what this union (ALPA) is doing against its own members or failing to do on their behalf. I posted with the intent of exposing that reality to other professional pilots. The objective of informing is to aid in achieving a change in the union's policy and the restoration of it's true purpose. There are other threads dealing with management problems.

When a union acts against union members who pay for its representation of their interests, that is worse than corruption in management. It must be stopped and that is what the litigation is trying to do, i.e., legally force the union to honor its Duty of Fair Representation to ALL its members. We are neither uneducated nor weak and it is our union and mainline pilots that are enabling the abuse of which we complain. The abuser always seeks to transfer the blame or deny his complicity. That is what you're doing.

To me, the regional pilots in employment plight of low wages and poor working conditions is a classic case of the abused enabling the abuser. No different than when a wife lets her husband hit her the second time....

IMO, your analogy is misplaced and simply indicates your lack of knowledge and understanding of the issues that affect regional pilots as well as their relationship with their union. I hope you will take the time to inform yourself for it is you sir, who is uneducated with respect to this matter.

___________________________________

"Anger and pride are very powerful substitutes for thought." David Davis

[dc8skippy]

Surplus 1:
Very well said. and I agree with you 100%. I was at Emery and we had to fight with ALPA national on different fronts. It was not only money. The main idea was to get Emery to operate safely. That cost money and in the end they shut the airline down. The management of Emery is the kind of which ALPA never delt with (at least in the last 70 years) before. We were always treated like lose cannons and told to be patient we know what we are doing. :rolleyes:

It is easy for AV8R who probably never had to go through what the Comair pilots had to go through and are going through to get what he has walked in to after the fight was fought long ago. It's better if your ALPA contract is 50 years old and the ground rules have been established than to start from scratch.

[BenThere]

ALPA must end the whipsaw between its regional and mainline groups by achieving integration of the seniority lists of all its pilots. It's just as difficult to fly a Saab as it is a 777. Its just harder to get a seat on the 777. There is no reason why a new hire should not start at the company owned or codeshared regional and work his/r way up to that 777. Its the only fair way to do it, and the only way to fight for all ALPA pilots. Ultimately, I think all of our living standards depend on achieving this.

[peepsmover]

Take that post about new hire fairness regarding company owned and codeshared regionals elsewhere. It is off topic and while simplistic, it certainly would be unfair to those pilots who earned the same skill set outside the respective regionals, so while the current scheme is not perfect it certainly offers all competitive pilots a shot at the majors.

As for ALPA bashing, I see a lot of fingerpointing, but lets read the facts. First, do you have an elected union group, and the commensurate union leadership? Does your respective MEC negotiate your pilot group's contract? Am I to believe that your respective pilot group does not then vote on the negotiated contract? Certainly ALPA advises and assists, but is the national office negotiating and voting your respective contracts?

As a diverse pilot group certainly there is common ground on a variety of issues, yet the differences simply reflect the diversity, therefore regionals will of course not have the 777 pay of UAL. Tell me specifically what the claims are, don't give me generics, tell me numbers and tell me how ALPA is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

As for Emery, I have seen the posts, but still I have not seen enough to make an assessment on ALPA's shortcoming, so tell us. I certainly am willing to listen, because unions themselves are certainly not a panacea, but a bad union can make things even worse, if ALPA needs to take corrective action, well then it has to be done, because our collective strength rests on our collective unity. Maybe the bigger issue is that ALPA cannot be all things to all pilot groups and perhaps the birth of two major pilot groups would be the best solution.

[Ignition Override]

Despite the many interesting comments on this complex topic, it can not be described in a short paragraph, even in three-four solid pages. Just some observations and questions here which require a bit of space, hopefully detached and objective, despite this "Pandora's Box" topic.

I was with three regionals for a short while in the mid-80s (flew Bandits and Shorts: the first airline survived for a year), and later began to understand and heard about how much more difficult it was to get a certain company's pay up to the standard, i.e. veterans of non-union Mesa Airlines said that Beech 1900 Captains/FOs were paid about 30% LESS than average. Working while a GOP President is in the White House or with a GOP-controlled Congress, despite their better qualities, puts you in an environment where such leaders love any employer which can figure out how to cheat YOU, the worker, out of standard working conditions and pay. If still in denial, one can read about US airline deregulation history-many souces are available for cross-checking.

Two guys I know worked at Mesa for a while, one had flown multi'turbine Navy helicopters 20 years and the other, a friend, flew complex Marine helos for several; both needed immediate fixed wing multi-engine experience while hiring at majors was forecast to either begin or continue. If a pilot avoids the first valuable stepping stone which offers a seat in a new-hire class, other than scabbing, can mean no more options for a while, or no paycheck for a flying job, and non-currency (this has seriously handicapped so many applicants: Microsoft Flight Sim can't be logged). If this was their first opportunity to further their career, then anyone who actually claims that both guys should have quickly gone to work at Walmart or become insurance salesmen after reacting with disgust at the crappy regional salaries, is not really sincere with such a view. This implies that a quality-experience and maybe above-standard pay regional flying job could land in their laps, all by chance-does it not?

Maybe someone can explain to me whether national ALPA can legally help support a strike at a codeshare regional, in a physical sense. As far as I know, under the Railway Labor Act etc, it is not possible, using reduction/suspension of service at the major partner. Maybe I was not aware of such methods, and wish we could all have used such legal support, in order to put standard speed/grossweight formulas into regional pay contracts, as COMAIR tried to. They were up against extreme (possibly some illegal...) pressure from the entire industry, which was leaning very hard on Delta not to cave in and help create an earthshaking watershed event. The advantage of operating regional jets might have begun to disappear, with a tremendous new industry contract precedent.

Are not regional pilots easier to replace during a strike, from a financial perspective, than their brethren at the major partner? If so, how can they win a strike with the entire industry subsidizing (while threatening via Congressmen/Senators? Guess how Close-In Noise Abatement procedures were forced upon the FAA? ) the owners to resist to the bitter end?

Will somebody also explain to me (via this site or e-mail) how a regional airline's pilots can refuse to fly a CRJ, Embraer jet etc if these are the only replacements for many turboprops at the same carrier? By the way, one of our FOs ( a former military fighter and Instructor Pilot, a Northrop Wonder) was ignorant enough to refer to our regional partners as scabs, implying that they had somehow crossed an invisible picket line, because they are flying Canadair CRJs. The guy obviously has a very bone-headed, purely personal perspective, so I realized how futile it would be to expose him to the reality of our industry, with his total lack of airline experience as a true "airline working grunt" before he came here, having been a major contributor to his blinded viewpoint. Luckily he does not work for the union. But he is not alone. Some of our pilots are arrogant enough to consider their 757 or widebody flying to be the only real airline flying on the property, although I don't like saying this in public.

Are these questions difficult to answer, without distorting/changing the wording or contex of the questions? I see so many contradictions in this topic and "Catch 22s", what simple solutions are there, other than subjective policies or abstract academics and value judgements-assuming that national ALPA continues to be far too protective of past/future promotions to even consider supporting, with freezes and fleet/seat protections, a national seniority/codeshare-based seniority list, as used at American, Continental? I'm not suggesting that our regional affiliates should have been prevented from ordering at least a "competitive" batch of RJs, but if seen from the perspectives of both regional and major carrier pilots, IF unlimited numbers of RJs were allowed (200-300+ etc), would not the affliate major airline(s) have far fewer job slots in the future available for many of these codeshare regional pilots or pilots from other codeshare operations (USAirways Express, United Express...)? Is there not some general, numerical relationship in this situation if it applied in the same overall percentages to every US major regional airline codeshare combination? On the one hand, it is not fair for ALPA to limit the careers of those at a regional who will stay there, but on the other hand how about those young enough to move on, who don't mind giving up the Captain's seat in order to be much more able to help the wife stay home with young kids or even pay for chldrens' college educations etc? Most kids don't qualify for scholarships...Is it possible that turboprop PIC hours are just as valuable as turbofan PIC on a major airline resume? It would be tragic, if many pilots felt that they absolutely must have generic turbofan PIC at any cost in order to escape a career with a regional; if the opposite result took place, too many RJs could mean much less hiring in the future when they have about 5,000-7,000 total hours: is any one jet the only reward, on a clearly discriminatory pay scale? One major airline prefers pilots to have flown more than one high-performance aircraft.

According to second hand info which I only recently heard from "my" FO :), one's having flown many hours in two or three different regional turboprops (an "aggressive career") is preferred to having flown the line in 'only' a C-141 for eight years, not to mention pilots who believe seriously in CRM. Don't ask me why it prefers combinations of types-in my opinion, they all have value, including helos. That hiring-in-a-nutshell philosophy came from someone in our Flight Personnel Dept. The backgrounds of my FOs in the last three years all reflect this hiring philosophy. The two who had finished flying C-141s as IPs/Check Airmen (Stan Eval) had both also flown Air Force Learjets at detachments etc in Ramstein or Stuttgart. Many FOs here were all civilian with at least two or three type-ratings such as Beech-1900, Jetstream, ATR-42...and pertinent line experience on those aircraft which made their resumes/CVs attractive. Just a thought or two. Those CRJs do not appear to have given any of "my" FOs an advantage when they applied to work here. So many were hired as civilians with no jet experience-plenty of folks with chunks of jet hours and a college degree might have been available anyway.

Don't get me wrong here: I'm not picking on anybody's views and normal, natural career goals to fly newer or bigger planes which pay more and go faster+higher. The same pay formula would apply if some court ruling would have the balls to admit and finally rule that at least two different pay formulas are used when contrasting US majors and regionals (clear discrimination, considering the calculations used by ALPA for mainline jet pay, used for many years in our industry's "contract pattern bargaining"), which ironically, in many case have the same name (or it is implied), logo and paint job on the planes. I could not believe that a US court ruled that American Eagles' various components could finally bargain as a single entity. With that as a precedent, why can't this legal concept be extended, whether the major owns a regional component or not? Just because Eagle consisted mostly of turboprops should not be a legal reason to separate negotiations from mainline American, or did Eagle leave APA because mainline American had no sympathy for its brethren who often work harder for a living (I was a 757 FO, which gave me some exposure to the easier world of many days with just two legs while punching on the FMC/LNAV/VNAV: a long day on a Bandit or Shorts [DC-9...] could be much more work and tiring: none of you guys/gals can "preach to the choir" and fool many of us).

By the way, some majors are selling their regional affiliates-could the significance of a future strike like COMAIR be a strategic reason, among others, which became apparent to managements after the bitter COMAIR struggle? By the way, how much solidarity do our companies have with their ATA/RAA union (a powerful lobby group), ...er..ahem.. excuse my frankness, they would much prefer the phrase "industry trade association" or such.

Ok, end of this Spanish Inquisition: no offense meant towards the Monty Python version. As an IP said after an 0600-1000 steam-gauge, high bladder psi sim period, "hasta la pasta".

If you folks keep throwing lances and axes at each other's personalities (with the raised computer monitor as your Saxon shields), which few would ever consider while on somebody's jumpseat, few combatants will have allowed even valid information to penetrate their brains. But I'm certainly above such tactics, let there be no doubt, King Aelfred.

[AA717driver]

Good post I/O. As I have been trying to tell the AA pilots on our message board--ALPA will not solve our problems. Each pilot group has to negotiate its own contracts.

Now, until ALPA National can find a way to keep regionals from flying mainline routes during a job action AND keep mainline or other 'wholly-owned subsidiary' pilots from covering for a striking regional, it will be tough to get better conditions for the regionals.

Hell, it will be tough to get better conditions for mainline. I just talked to a friend who is getting furloughed at DAL while RJ flying continues to explode. Force Majeure my ass!

This leads me to another point. An "impartial", "independent" arbitrator ruled that Force Majeure allows DAL to continue to violate the contract/SCOPE clause--9 months(and counting) after the event causing the F/M. Don Carty wants to expedite the process of getting contract negotiations to an arbitrator. Would that be the same "impartial" arbitrator used in the DAL case?

We need to find a way to unite ALL professional pilots and thwart the assault underway by the ATA/RAA Union.TC

[steamchicken]

Isn't it a better idea for a trade union to try to get better pay for its underpaid members than to attack them? I always thought unions exist to represent their members against the power of the boss.....

[DownIn3Green]

Well Hell you say, Mr. AA717, (That's not a real Boeing, by the way)

Regarding your post and all of the "let's get a better contract for mainline, etc..."

How about this:

During the Comair strike, I had several occasions to fly Delta to/from Ft Myers (RSW).

One flight I took last summer (July 4th to be precise) was from RSW to JFK via ATL.

Anyway, I sat next to a woman who had been tossed about in the system because she was supposed to go from RSW to Orlando (MCO) on Comair, then onto her final destination on Delta. (mainline)

Because of ALPO's strike at Comair, DAL rerouted this passenger (Comair regional passenger, whose ticket was on the "struck" airline),to her final destination on mainline.

In other words, the pilots on that flight from RSW were flying struck revenue because they hauled this woman out of Fla to ATL to get her to her final destination.

The nerve of those mainline pilots. I'll gladly provide the details of this flight, if ALPO will declare those "brother" pilots scabs.

If you guys don't get it yet, drink some more cool aid and keep trying.

ALPO does nothing for the "have-nots" except take their hard earned money...

[AA717driver]

That's the whole point, for ALPA to be anything other than an 'association', it has to include ALL airline pilots in this country.

In fact, to have any teeth at all, ALPA needs to develop a single seniority list, single contract for all airline pilots. That way, no one has to fly struck work.

The DAL pilots who were forced to fly CA's routes are getting paid back in spades.TC

P.S.--I never called it a Boeing, anyway. Give me Douglas 'Fly-By-Wire' any day!;)

[Ignition Override]

Down In 3 Green: My company won't let us stay at the gate for passengers who we can see just now run up to the gate, as the agent quickly leaves the podium and rudely locks the jetway door in their face and is required in most situations to slam the main cabin door shut five minutes before sched departure. Supposedly those marketing focus groups prefer the silly DOT "on-time" stats which pressures each company (and very often compromises safety-and I can prove it) more than the abililty to step on to the aircraft

In this corporate, so-called "People First" atmosphere, how can the flight attendants or anyone else determine how many passengers are on us instead of on a codeshare carrier which is on strike? Even if we knew, who believes that we can plan in advance to notify certain crews not to go to work? Who is willing to seriously jeopardize their only flying career on this side of the blue planet, without a new court ruling to allow a suspension of service etc?

[surplus1]

Originally posted by dc8skippy
Surplus 1:
Very well said. and I agree with you 100%. I was at Emery and we had to fight with ALPA national on different fronts. It was not only money. The main idea was to get Emery to operate safely. That cost money and in the end they shut the airline down. The management of Emery is the kind of which ALPA never delt with (at least in the last 70 years) before. We were always treated like lose cannons and told to be patient we know what we are doing.

Greetings,
I've read a lot of your story and know some of it first hand. I think TR is a good person and did his best on your behalf. He just didn't understand the inner politics of the organization and believed too much of the sales pitch. All that glitters is not gold.

I tried to warn him but don't blame him for not heeding the warnings (at the time I was as much a stranger to him as anyone else). When the canary hit the fan he unfortunately came to realize that the support he expected was never there. BTW, if you are still in contact with him send me a private message with how I might get in touch (if you can).

Thanks for your understanding.
Surplus1

[surplus1]

Originally posted by peepsmover

Talk to me
Take that post about new hire fairness regarding company owned and codeshared regionals elsewhere. It is off topic and while simplistic, it certainly would be unfair to those pilots who earned the same skill set outside the respective regionals, so while the current scheme is not perfect it certainly offers all competitive pilots a shot at the majors.

Sorry for being slow but I don't quite follow you on that. What are you talking about? What is "off topic" and why? What skill sets earned outside the regionals are you referring to? Please clarify your statements.

As for ALPA bashing, I see a lot of fingerpointing, but lets read the facts. First, do you have an elected union group, and the commensurate union leadership? Does your respective MEC negotiate your pilot group's contract? Am I to believe that your respective pilot group does not then vote on the negotiated contract? Certainly ALPA advises and assists, but is the national office negotiating and voting your respective contracts?

I'll respond as applicable to my own airline and with the perspective of a "regional pilot" member. The answer to your first questions is YES. To the second question the answer is also YES, but it's not quite that simple. Small airlines like mine negotiate contracts in the same way that large ALPA airlines do but with one important difference. The large ALPA carrier (like UAL or DAL or NWA) is not subject to interference from ALPA national during negotiations. The small carrier like mine (CMR) definitely is. That interference takes many forms, sometimes subtle other times over and still others extreme pressure. The interference is not beneficial to the contractual objectives of the small carrier, particularly when they might conflict with the ALPA agenda (controlled by mainline pilots) or the objectives of a particular mainline carrier. Yes, the pilot group does vote on the negotiated contract (at my airline, but not at all airlines). That vote (Comair being a typical example) often goes against the "wishes" of the ALPA national initially but sooner or later, winds up coming out pretty much like ALPA wants it. The political pressure wielded by the national union varies from mild to threateningly intense. ALPA national controls the money and uses it to coerce whenever deemed appropriate. These tactics are not known generally to mainliners who are not exposed to them.

As a diverse pilot group certainly there is common ground on a variety of issues, yet the differences simply reflect the diversity, therefore regionals will of course not have the 777 pay of UAL. Tell me specifically what the claims are, don't give me generics, tell me numbers and tell me how ALPA is robbing Peter to pay Paul.

It is not the "natural" differences and diversity to which regional pilots object. The issues go far beyond that. No one expects 777 wages to fly a 50-seat airplane. What IS expected is the same methodology generally used to determine mainline compensation and vigorous support of the effort to obtain it. Regional pilots also don't expect substantially inferior work rules (supported by the national union) and substandard benefit packages (also supported by the union) simply because they don't have 40-year old contracts. To be told that your aspirations for long established contractual "standards" are "unrealistic" solely because you fly for a "regional" reflect the two tier system created and fostered by ALPA national. The regional carriers don't have the leverage available to the majors but they do expect their union to support their efforts. It does so rhetorically but when the chips are down, they are pretty much on their own. Fighting the Company is one problem. Fighting the Company and your very own Union at the same time is another matter all together.

Scope is a major issue. Regional pilots support the need for Scope. Yet amazingly, there isn't a single regional carrier with any scope that realistically protects its own flying from anything. National attorneys find it impossible to navigate the corporate webs and devise effective language (or so they allege). Yet, those same lawyers work overtime at finding ways for mainline pilot groups not only to protect their own flying, but also to create predatory contractual provisions, control the flying of regional subsidiaries (with the same parent corporation) and reduce or restrict it to the point that would stagnate growth, force furloughs and unreasonably restrict aircraft types. Importantly they don't seek to do this before the fact but after the Genie is (thanks to them) already out of the bottle. Regional scope that might come at the expense of mainline pilots is taboo. Mainline scope that can devastate the careers of regional pilots, in regional jets, is de rigeur. The double standard is unacceptable to regional pilots and a major cause of friction. When the regional flying is a subcontracted arrangement, that's not a problem. When the regional is an Alter Ego owned and operated by the same Company as the mainline, the conflict becomes irreconcilable.

ALPA prohibits the application of merger policy when the parties are mainline/regional, but demands the policy when they are mainline/mainline. Another double standard. ALPA attempts to push flow-through concepts on carriers that don't want it. For those that do want it, the same ALPA aids mainline pilot groups attempting to prevent it. For the most part, regional pilots don't expect to be "equal" but they do expect to be treated equally by their union. Discrimination against a select group of ALPA members is not acceptable. That is precisely what is happening.

ALPA decries the creation of a quasi Alter Ego airline whose pilots will be non-union on one of its regional carrier properties and refers to the founder as "another Lorenzo". Yet a couple of weeks later, the same ALPA supports the creation of an Alter Ego on a mainline property (where there are already 3 other Alter Egos, all represented by ALPA) because the mainline pilot group wants it (to find jobs for its furloughed pilots). ALPA ignores the fact that the newly created Alter Ego may result in pilots at 3 airlines (all ALPA represented) losing their jobs. ALPA supports a scenario, created at the same a major airline (ALPA represented), that together with the created and accepted Alter Ego, will force regional pilot members to abrogate their contracts and seniority in favor of furloughed mainline pilots or see themselves phased out as the affected flying is awarded to subcontractors. Still another demonstration of a double standard.

The union's Constitution and policies must be applied equally to all union members. It can't favor one assumed superior "class" of pilot over another assumed inferior class. We are all airline pilots. The fact that you and I may fly different equipment does not change that. ALPA policy seems to think that it does. That thinking must change. A member, is a member, is a member.

As for Emery, I have seen the posts, but still I have not seen enough to make an assessment on ALPA's shortcoming, so tell us. I certainly am willing to listen, because unions themselves are certainly not a panacea, but a bad union can make things even worse, if ALPA needs to take corrective action, well then it has to be done, because our collective strength rests on our collective unity. Maybe the bigger issue is that ALPA cannot be all things to all pilot groups and perhaps the birth of two major pilot groups would be the best solution.

I won't attempt to speak directly to the details of the Emery scenario since I'm not an Emery pilot. Basically however, it is simply a question of Emery being a small airline. In ALPA today, the size of the airline, measured in terms of its contributions to the exchequer, is apparently directly related to the quality of representation that the union provides. That's a bad union in my book. If the national union is unwilling or unable to represent with equal vigor the interests of pilots in airlines large or small, then it should restrict its membership to the large airlines it prefers. You are correct, the union can't be all things to all people at all times. However, when the union seeks the membership of a pilot group and sells itself as being "THE pilot's union", it has assumed the responsibility of defending those members. It must either carry out that responsibility or be forced legally to do so.

A conflict of interest exists between large and small. Since ALPA chose to recruit and represent both, it must do so fairly in accordance with the law. The litigation alleges it did not. If the courts determine the litigants to be justified in their claim, ALPA National will be forced to change its way of doing business.

[surplus1]

Originally posted by AA717 We have met the enemy...
Good post I/O. As I have been trying to tell the AA pilots on our message board--ALPA will not solve our problems. Each pilot group has to negotiate its own contracts.

Interestingly, ALPA was "solving the AA pilots problems" before you left ALPA in a manner quite similar to how it is now "solving" the problems of regional pilots.

Now, until ALPA National can find a way to keep regionals from flying mainline routes during a job action AND keep mainline or other 'wholly-owned subsidiary' pilots from covering for a striking regional, it will be tough to get better conditions for the regionals.

I do hope you're not implying that regional pilots would fly your struck work? They are far more likely to be willing to strike in sympathy with you where legally possible. Now, would you be willing to strike in sympathy with the Eagle pilots? Answer honestly please. The Delta pilots were not willing to do that for the Comair pilots, but they did not fly struck work either.

Hell, it will be tough to get better conditions for mainline. I just talked to a friend who is getting furloughed at DAL while RJ flying continues to explode. Force Majeure my ass!

I have a question for you. If DAL were to stop all RJ flying tomorrow, how many DAL pilots do you think would be recalled as a result? Do you think DAL would replace the RJs with a fleet of 737s carrying 50 pax each?

This leads me to another point. An "impartial", "independent" arbitrator ruled that Force Majeure allows DAL to continue to violate the contract/SCOPE clause--9 months(and counting) after the event causing the F/M. Don Carty wants to expedite the process of getting contract negotiations to an arbitrator. Would that be the same "impartial" arbitrator used in the DAL case?

Again an honest answer please. If the arbitrator had ruled against the Company, would you be putting the words impartial and independent in quotes? I'm against Carty's proposal because it would remove the right to strike. However, I wonder again if that procedure was in place and the arbitrator chose the pilot's proposal, would you think he was "impartial"?

We need to find a way to unite ALL professional pilots and thwart the assault underway by the ATA/RAA Union.TC

Yes we do. Start by recognizing that all airline pilots are professional pilots (that includes the regionals), then next move to create one seniority list by merging the current separate lists where ever a company owns more than one airline. Finally, stop all further subcontracting and phase out current subcontractors when their contracts expire. Are you prepared to do those things?

If you choose to reply, please don't tell me that the APA has already proposed a merged list because you haven't. What you have proposed is the confiscation of all Eagle jets to be then place at AA to be flown by AA pilots. If the DAL pilots proposed anything like that, the dispute we have now would go nuclear in a heartbeat.

[BenThere]

Well done, SURPLUS 1!

While I am a mainline major carrier pilot, I see the business model of the majors evolving toward ever greater reliance on their regional partners to carry ever greater proportions of the domestic load. I would much rather be bumped to an RJ in bad times than furloughed to the street. I also want to see us serve Fargo, as the RJs make feasible. This makes the industry grow to provide more jobs for more of us. Most importantly, I want pilots, who have paid their dues in life regardless of where they work just to get any airline job, to earn a decent, family supporting living. We in the majors will continue to be threatened by increasing efficiency and utilization of the RJs unless their success is made to become our success.

[Ignition Override]

AA717 Driver and Gang: knowing that impartiality is required of judges in our local, district, state, federal courts etc, including Georgia (Delta/COMAIR jurisdiction) and Texas (AA), and knowing the integrity required of those with such crucial legal responsibilies, is it possible that such wise individuals could have a strong anti-labor prejudice? I read something months ago about such allegations and was most shocked after considering the implications.

How could such well-respected decision makers be accused of having a strong personal bias? It was my impression that such people take an oath. Could the "word" of certain individuals mean nothing when personal prejudice takes over? If so, this is most disturbing.

In the early 90's "Aviation Week" reported that certain Department of Transportation Admin. judges ruled very favorably for Frank Lorenzo's 'Texas Air Corporation' or 'Jet Capital', and soon thereafter went to work for said private employers. Wasn't this just a coincidence? That is, the fact that the rulings were in favor of the corporation which was the airline 'golden child' in the honest eyes our government's Executive Branch, which felt that deregulation is always best?

Is it remotely possible that the (US) Air Transport Association and the Regional Airline Association, which have powerful lobbys and influence in our federal government, maneuvered with politicians to break the COMAIR strike by a combination of back-room dealing? Could Delta Airlines have "allegedly" received some sort of financial incentives form other parties? Did much extra money suddenly flow into anyone's Political Action Committee(s) because of this strike?

If any of these allegations could be proven, then just how could US regional pilots ever find an impartial jurisdiction for any future legal decisions?

[Ignition Override]

US regional pilots (workhorses of the airlines)-I wish everyone lots of luck, when considering that our entire industry has enormous financial resources set aside with no possible claim of impartiality, in order to shaft you all any way that they can. There must be tons of legal assistance standing by (in somebody's back pocket?), gavel in hand, with only a presumption of impartiality.

[AA717driver]

I/O--Need I say more?;) TC

[surplus1]

Originally posted by BenThere

Well done, SURPLUS 1!

While I am a mainline major carrier pilot, I see the business model of the majors evolving toward ever greater reliance on their regional partners to carry ever greater proportions of the domestic load. I would much rather be bumped to an RJ in bad times than furloughed to the street. I also want to see us serve Fargo, as the RJs make feasible. This makes the industry grow to provide more jobs for more of us. Most importantly, I want pilots, who have paid their dues in life regardless of where they work just to get any airline job, to earn a decent, family supporting living. We in the majors will continue to be threatened by increasing efficiency and utilization of the RJs unless their success is made to become our success.

BenThere,

Thanks and congrats to you. Apparently you've seen the "big picture". Unless we join hands and work together to make things better for all, management will make us the victims of our own folly.

The RJs are here and like it or not they aren't going to disappear. No union can really prevent management from operating a particular aircraft type. No pilot group that I can think of will ever allow another pilot group to simply put them out of work via a scope clause.

The only way we can avoid competitive wars between pilots for the same flying and not become victims of the "lowest bidder" plague is to join forces. Too many major airline pilots don't appear to see that and USALPA certainly doesn't.

[Roadtrip]

APA is trying to fix the problem that was created when regionals were scoped in to begin with. Acquiesing to the creation of regional companies was a huge mistake. Hindsight is 20/20.

Guess what AMR management's reaction is? That's right. "Forget it. We like hiring guys with 200 multi and are willing to sign contracts to fly for crap wages." Stop whinning about ALPA not coming to your rescue and start your own union.