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View Full Version : Fancy an Eruv bruv?


Curious Pax
28th Nov 2014, 09:16
Local media has picked up on plans to create an Eruv around the area I live. The proposers have a website Eruv proposal (http://haleeruv.org) which gives details, and runs a comments section (surprisingly for this day and age it all seems to be pretty civil!).

I find myself torn on the matter - on the one hand I very much support freedom of religion, and the right of practitioners to do what they need to do to exercise that freedom as long as it doesn't impinge on others.

However on the other hand it is being proposed in an area that is very multicultural in nature (as well as being popular with Jews it is also a magnet for well off Asians, along with white Anglos such as myself). At the moment despite all the tensions in the world everyone seems to largely rub along, and anything that could disturb that doesn't seem like a good idea.

Although it is only a wall in a virtual sense (wires 6 metres off the ground aren't exactly going to keep anyone in or out), the connotations of such things from history also ring alarm bells.

There are already Eruvs set up in other parts of the UK, and given the lack of outcry over those it does seem likely that this would be a 5 minute wonder, after which the non-Jewish community would pay as much attention to the extra poles/wires erected as they do to telegraph poles. I've no idea of the make up of those communities though - they may be more homogenous in nature, which would be less likely to trigger a reaction.

It could also be the thin end of the wedge - we don't have a mosque in the area (just a cultural centre), so perhaps one would be built as a reaction. 6am call to prayer would go down well!

What do the panel think?

cdtaylor_nats
28th Nov 2014, 09:22
It sounds to me like the religious equivalent of tax avoidance - very much in the letter of the law while circumventing the spirit.

sitigeltfel
28th Nov 2014, 09:27
This caused a lot of controversy before, in London (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2182994.stm).

Why can't they use a smartphone app to tell them where the boundaries are? Or is this also a forbidden activity?

Andy_S
28th Nov 2014, 09:34
Is this one of those situations in which an ultra-orthodox minority are simply trying to assert themselves despite the majority having managed just fine without for as long as anyone can remember?

Capot
28th Nov 2014, 09:41
It sounds like a "pseudo-legal" alternative to simply ignoring a religious law. The sort of thing that earnest people in committees dream up instead of going home.

Consequently, Jewish individuals within the Eruv are then permitted to move objects across, what was before the erection of the Eruv, a public domain/private domain boundary.
Why not just ignore the silly rule in the first place? In effect that's what they intend to do, isn't it?

Tankertrashnav
28th Nov 2014, 09:54
Curious Pax - shame on you for introducing a thread which may lead to a bout of anti-Semitism.

Dont you realise this may overshadow the ongoing Islamophobia which up to now has been ever-present on Jet Blast? :=

;)

Ancient Mariner
28th Nov 2014, 10:02
Those foreign religions never cease to amaze and surprise.
I'll stick to Odin and Tor, much more fun.
Per

Keef
28th Nov 2014, 10:05
Pretty harmless, although it's a way round a strict OT law (as some orthodox interpret it). Either follow the law, or decide you're not going to - but if this makes you happy...

Wodrick
28th Nov 2014, 10:14
CP I make the assumption that you be a person of South Mancunia persuasion as I recall that one of these areas exists in the North of the city not a million miles away from Laser.

Like here innit (https://www.manchestereruv.org.uk/plans.aspx)

jolihokistix
28th Nov 2014, 10:55
Next thing is we will have drones, er... birds flying into these wires.

Mechta
28th Nov 2014, 11:14
Non-Jews and secular Jews may take exception to their being included within a nominal boundary. It won't be long before the bickering starts between the varying degrees of Jewish orthodoxy as to what is an isn't permitted within an area. Will the ultra-orthodox ones start demanding access to non-Jewish property within the Eruv to assert their 'right to do so'?

Did anyone else immediately think of this once they started reading this thread? :E:

gb_qHP7VaZE

Loose rivets
28th Nov 2014, 11:40
I always wondered who that pretty girl is. Anyone know?

Blacksheep
28th Nov 2014, 11:56
An interesting concept.

Being an Island, Britain has natural boundary all the way around it. Does that not make Britain a natural Eruv? Is there a limit to the size of an Eruv?

Mechta
28th Nov 2014, 12:15
Loose Rivets wrote:

I always wondered who that pretty girl is. Anyone know?

Sue Jones-Davies, the one-time mayor of a Aberystwyth, in which 'Life of Brian' was banned:

BBC NEWS | UK | Wales | Mid Wales | Mayor wants Python film ban ended (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/7514423.stm)

Krystal n chips
28th Nov 2014, 13:48
As the population of Hale, Hale Barns.....and not forgetting Bowdon !....have long since felt they were separate from the rest of society....well those in society without any money to be more specific, building a very large wall around these hamlets would seem a perfectly reasonable proposition......

I would suggest commencing at The Downs....

Sadly, this doesn't seem to be quite what is being proposed....

Ahem, now edited (c/o Capot) due to a life long confusion with cables of the same name.....cough !

Although I have always thought Bowdon church would make an excellent gibbet as you could sit in comfort and watch the proceedings from the pub opposite ( ish )

Capot
28th Nov 2014, 17:29
Oy yoy yoy, are you some kind of Shmendrick; it's Bowdon, not Bowden. And it's already enclosed by our invisible Force.

Gay Avek.

Mazel Tov.

Solid Rust Twotter
28th Nov 2014, 18:27
Not forcing it down the throats of others, disrupting their activities or forcing them to comply?

Have at it! I don't give a shit.

unstable load
3rd Dec 2014, 09:16
Exactly my opinion.
Fill your boots, Shabbat Shalom!

jimtherev
3rd Dec 2014, 09:58
One was living in the boro of Hendon when their local proposals were raising the dust. Such a fuss!
Eruv eventually agreed and set up. Now none but the ultra-Orthodox know or care.

B Fraser
3rd Dec 2014, 15:39
She also gave us the term "a Judith" which is a lady garden as unkempt as Terry Waites' allotment or Brian May's plughole.

mikedreamer787
3rd Dec 2014, 18:54
Did anyone else immediately think of this once they started reading this thread?

Nope. I can't figure out what a bloody
eruv is. That site the OP mentioned is
no help either.

Eruv? Sounds like a drone the Russkis
invented.

Mechta
4th Dec 2014, 11:58
Nope. I can't figure out what a bloody
eruv is. That site the OP mentioned is
no help either.Going by the blurb I've read, its a virtual house created by defining a boundary, so that ancient Jewish rules regarding what can and cannot be taken across the property boundary, or done within the boundary on the sabbath, can be applied to that greater area.

Why the boundary, where there is not already one, needs to be a wire strung overhead and not a painted line or piece of metal set in to the road is beyond me*.

* According to Wikipedia, the walls must be at least ten tefachim (roughly a metre) in height, which would explain the high strung wires across roads.

ShyTorque
4th Dec 2014, 12:17
I'm glad I'm agnostic. Life is much less stressful than trying to deal with all this religious malarkey with its silly rules.

Blacksheep
4th Dec 2014, 12:41
That seems to answer the question I asked earlier, "Is there a limit to the size of an Eruv?" Great Britain isn't a natural eruv, because the coastline is defined at sea level and the boundary has to be 10 tefachim high.

Curses! Foiled again! I'm going to stay home on Saturday and do absolutely nothing.

Sallyann1234
4th Dec 2014, 13:03
Well if the coastline is at sea level, the 10 tefachim contour will be a natural eruv!

Blacksheep
4th Dec 2014, 13:06
Well spotted Sallyann! I'll contact Ordnance Survey right away and ask them to them draw up the 10 tefachim contour right away.

Sallyann1234
4th Dec 2014, 15:03
And when they have finished building their concrete wall around the occupied territories, the entire State of Israel with be one giant eruv.

[kippah, tallit, door...]

tony draper
4th Dec 2014, 15:46
Those folks have the ability to adjust sea levels,ask Pharaoh's army.
:rolleyes:

Espada III
4th Dec 2014, 20:51
Actually there is a maximum size of an Eruv.

Amongst the hundreds if not thousands of rules that we Jews are meant to follow (and we don't all follow all of them...), one rule states that you are not permitted to walk more than 2,000 cubits (about 0.6miles) from the boundary of the town you are in over the Sabbath. Shabbat (as we know it) is a day of rest, so going for a long walk is not restful and therefore the distance you can walk outside the town is limited. An Eruv therefore can be very large, but also, it cannot include open land in which no one really lives. Hence, whilst all towns in Israel have Eruvim, they cannot coalesce, into one big one as it would involve a) walking more than 2,000 cubits from the town's border and the Eruv cannot encompass the open fields beyond the same border.

By way of reminder, an Eruv permits Jews to carry in public places on Shabbat, as otherwise we are forbidden. It converts a public area into a nominal private or shared one in which carrying is permitted.

As an example - for those of you who know north Manchester, Heaton Park is not within the Eruv despite being within the Jewish community's natural habitat and offering excellent Eruv boundaries, with its new Lottery funded walls. So when you go in there on a Saturday you will see Jews walking, but not carrying anything. Outside the park on Bury Old Road for instance, we can carry.

You may choose to think us barmy (I think that myself sometimes), but as long as we do not cause anyone harm, followers of a belief should be permitted to do what they want to do.

tony draper
4th Dec 2014, 21:00
Agree 100% Mr Espada,would that some of the more recent religious entrants would carry out their lives and beliefs with the same quiet dignity.
:)

mad_jock
4th Dec 2014, 21:09
Can you explain the unit system Espada please?

mikedreamer787
4th Dec 2014, 21:26
Thanks Mechta.

BenThere
4th Dec 2014, 21:40
would that some of the more recent religious entrants would carry out their lives and beliefs with the same quiet dignity.

Me, too, TD.

All the best, Espada III.

SpringHeeledJack
4th Dec 2014, 21:56
Amongst the hundreds if not thousands of rules that we Jews are meant to follow (and we don't all follow all of them...),

Why are there any interpretations of rules, if I may ask ? Surely if religious rules are the word of God, then all rules are equally important ? A Jewish friend said to me many years ago that the mores of Judaism were designed to keep the followers true to the religion by making them jump through hoops on a daily basis, a discipline that cemented a way of life. I have no problem with a restricted area, as long as it doesn't impede on anyone else, physically or visually.


SHJ

mad_jock
4th Dec 2014, 22:26
my take on it is that its the opposite its an unrestricted area.

Seems a bit of a con to me though :ok:

Have an area defined as your home but anyone can walk through it eating a bacon butty.

But hey its not my problem.

Espada III
4th Dec 2014, 23:02
Mad Jock. .... The units of measurement in Judaism are similar in a way to Imperial. A tephach is a hand breadth, so about 4". A cubit is the distance from elbow to finger tip so about 18". Various rules of all sorts of things have minimum or maximum dimensions based upon these basic units.

SHJ......The Torah is a quite basic book in terms of details of our laws. The details were originally given to Moses at the same time by God but orally and these remained oral, passed down generation to generation until about 2,000 years ago when they were written down in a slightly more detailed form. They have been subsequently further detailed but Judaism is not a religion of edict but of interpretation. Hence, based upon a huge variety of different opinions by earlier Rabbis, a modern Rabbi, like judges in court using precedent to consider a point of law, will make a decision which is an amalgam of his personal interpretation of a point and historical commentaries.

Thus we have basic laws of principle, with many more detailed rulings stemming from that, with the possibility of different Rabbis holding contradictory views on certain points which none Jews might consider arcane. The important thing is that one does not pick and choose but sticks with one Rabbi.

There are hundreds of rules because there are hundreds of different daily situations and Judaism is not a religion of the synagogue but of day to day life.

nonsense
5th Dec 2014, 06:57
I can't help feeling that within 6 months, a year at the most, the vast majority of gentiles in Hale will have forgotten all about this and will likely be unable to even point out the posts and wires over entry points.

When cable internet arrived in Australia a decade or so ago, there was a huge fuss about adding the thicker more visible optic fibre cables to existing power poles in many areas; property values were going to plummet, pet dogs were going to drop dead in the streets from radiation, you get the idea.

Today, nobody cares.

The infrastructure will be less obtrusive than the "Hale Barns Rotary club meets Wednesdays" type signs you sometimes see at entry points to a community.

Disclaimer:
While I once lived in Hale Barns, I left in 1968 and haven't even visited since 1974. I suspect it may have changed a bit.

SpringHeeledJack
5th Dec 2014, 10:18
Thus we have basic laws of principle, with many more detailed rulings stemming from that, with the possibility of different Rabbis holding contradictory views on certain points which none Jews might consider arcane. The important thing is that one does not pick and choose but sticks with one Rabbi.

That's interesting, thank you for clearing that up. Would the following of a particular rabbi be almost akin to the different branches of the Christian faith and even so-called sects, bearing in mind that one rabbi might as you say have very different ideas from another ?



SHJ

Espada III
5th Dec 2014, 13:28
Very much so. Some sects have dynasties of rabbincal leaders holding the adherents in a firm grip of ultra conservative rulings about anything and everything to do with life - including very personal and intimate matters. The members ask the rabbi about everything - such mundane things like 'my child needs braces on his teeth - should I proceed?'

The more mainstream strands of Judaism understand that life has to be lived and that people can make their own decisions. They will ask the Rabbis for decisions on matters which are deemed important and for which the answer is not always clear. For example (in my personal case) a parent dies immediately before the celebration of one's son's barmitzvah. What celebrations is the child of the deceased permitted to enjoy and what of the arrangements need to be altered or cancelled. My rabbi was very understanding and I enjoyed myself whilst at the same time permitting myself time to mourn. My guests were unaffected which is how it should be in my opinion.

It is in this category of Jew will you find the contradictions occuring, and will depend upon the level of observancy of person asking the question, the general strictness of the community in which he resides and the background of the rabbi. A rabbi may permit something for one Jew and not for another, depending upon a number of factors not least of which is 'will my decision encourage or discourage that person to continue his personal spiritual journey?'.

mad_jock
5th Dec 2014, 16:22
top feedback Espada.

B Fraser
6th Dec 2014, 07:25
Religion baffles me. Catholics eat fish on Fridays and the definition of a rabbit was changed to allow them to be eaten. I have yet to see a shoal of rabbits but hey ho ! The Amish are allowed to have solid rubber tyres on their carts but not pneumatic ones. Jewish people can eat cheese and beef but not a cheeseburger. The list goes on forever.

I often wonder if the big chap in the sky is scratching his head at why some people have to control others with pointless rules.

Each to their own I suppose.

:rolleyes:

Krystal n chips
6th Dec 2014, 07:34
" The Amish are allowed to have solid rubber tyres on their carts but not pneumatic ones."

They also have digital cash registers......

SpringHeeledJack
6th Dec 2014, 07:41
I often wonder if the big chap in the sky is scratching his head at why some people have to control others with pointless rules.

Each to their own I suppose.


Some people take comfort in following the dictate of others and yet others find that abhorrent and row their own boat through life. As long as you do good by others and know when to moderate yourself, a righteous path will follow.


SHJ

mad_jock
6th Dec 2014, 08:24
or treat others how you want treated yourself.

I shared a flat at uni with a Divinity lecturer and helped out with a bit of engineering structures for the clergy to do with roof trusses etc.

As atheist as you could get. I suppose if the clergy could get passed him they were committed.

He had an extremely good line taking all the various religious rules to pieces in contact with the environment that the religion was in age old times matured in.

Most of them when you look at them in the environment that they were formed in are for everyone's own good.

It wasn't just the mainstream religions, but also the ones that live in various rain forests etc that there has been no way of the people being in contact with for century's. And even if the fundamental base of the religion was different the rules were the same.


I think his line was religion as a tool in social engineering and controlling populations. If you get given 10 sets of rules with your own religion not included, the environment, the rules and then sort them into groups of similar rules. They do tend to follow environment first, then have minor variants.

Unless you knew a religion personally you couldn't actually work out the difference between say Jewish and Muslim rule sets. Same environment, same foodstuffs which are banned, same method of killing meat which apparently is to makes sure no blood products are left in the carcass for hygiene reasons in high environmental temps.

It was the similarities between current rain forest dwellers who were the opposite sides of the world which was the most telling to me.

nonsense
7th Dec 2014, 19:52
The Amish are allowed to have solid rubber tyres on their carts but not pneumatic ones.

The Amish are an interesting bunch; they impose restrictions upon themselves not because they interpret their variant of the bible as imposing them, but because they wish to preserve a certain sort of lifestyle without excessive distractions.

Different communities therefore have varying restrictions. For example some feel a big red reflector on the back of one's horse drawn buggy is leaning too close to pride, while others prefer not to be run down at night. Some will have a telephone, but in a small shed removed from the house so they aren't tempted to use it for idle gossip.

Espada III
7th Dec 2014, 19:59
Famous Jewish joke about the separation of milk and meat in food.

The bible states on three occasions that a kid should not be cooked in its mother's milk. Moses is up Mount Sinai receiving the Torah from God and they discuss the details of the various basic written laws, such discussions making up the Oral Law. On hearing the first mention, Moses says 'I know, you want to forbid the eating of Chicken Kiev or Cheeseburgers' to which God replies 'No, just do as I say'. At the second mention Moses says 'Ah! You want us to wait three hours between eating meat and dairy!'. God says 'No, just don't cook a kid in its mother's milk'. At the third mention Moses says excitedly 'I know! I know!! We have to have separate crockery, cutlery and cooking pots for milk and meat' to which God replies exasperated 'Have it your way.'

And that gentlemen is a brief discourse on some kosher laws.