Qantaslink PH base closes. AD opens

[Iron Bar]

I may have missed something but what's going on with just announced Q link base closures and fleet changes?

[maverick22]

I may have missed something but what's going on with just announced Q link base closures and fleet changes?

Oh didn't you get that memo?

Unfortunately, no one else got either until they got to work today :hmm:

[roger_ramjet]

Summary in the news here:
Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantaslink-restructures-network-cuts-costs/story-e6frg95x-1227133938527) (search for the story with google news and it will come up)

4 x 300's put in mothballs/leased/sold means overall pilot numbers to reduce by about 30-40 by mid next year.

[Going Nowhere]

No planned redundancies yet. Surplus on the q400 to be managed via an accelerated leave program.

"New" Q300 base in ADL for 23 pilots.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

QLINK EXPANDS INTO ADELAIDE - LOOK OUT REX! WHA & MTG?

TWO ADDITIONAL Q400'S TO GO INTO CAIRNS (from the closing Perth Base, currently crewed by Eastern)

TWO Q300'S TO GO INTO ADELAIDE (from the CNS base) Adelaide to be a Sunnies base.

ADDITIONAL Q400 FOR THE BN BASE (From the current AD base)

TWO Q300'S TO BE SOLD OUT OF BN

More crew will be required for these additional aircraft in Adelaide considering CNS is understaffed as it is. Youngsters watch the recruiting website in the new year. All bodes well for the current Sunnies EBA negotiations. Things are on the move with opportunities for those who wish to take them.

SN

[Going Nowhere]

You're on drugs Nazi if you think this bides well for the pilot group!

Clearly you weren't at the meetings today or around the BNE/CNS or PER crew rooms.

After all the deckchairs are shuffled, QLink are looking at over 30 pilots SURPLUS to requirments.

There will be no recruiting for a very long time at QLink.

CNS and BNE are overstaffed with Q300 pilots as it is, then you reduce the aircraft numbers by 6/7. (there are 2 previously announced Q300's leaving and the Q200 based in BNE is going to SYD.)

Although they are adding Q400's to BNE & CNS, the number of crew required per aircraft will go down.

The ADL commands will get snapped up by ppl who either don't want to lose their command or FO's who see this as the last chance in a long time to change seats. The company has removed the type freeze for this vacancy bid.


This of course doesn't even take into account the PER based ppl who have to fight for no extra vacancies at all or hope that there is something leftover in the ADL bid.

[Humbly Reserved]

GN has hit the nail on the head.

Very strong vibes of surplus that the company will seek volunteers to take leave then LWOP. According to a source in HR redundancies will naturally follow if the companies target for leave isn't met.

Also notice too that no assurances were given for jobs in these briefings only "we are doing all that we can for the foreseeable future"

Will be exceptionally curious to see if our fellow crew members from PERTH shall be given priority or even seniority exemptions.

All of a sudden the fine print in the EBA will make or break how this plays out.

I do feel for those who will be unnecessarily displaced.

P.S this little briefing cost the company over 500,000 in cancelled flights and CONTRACTING ALLIANCE to takeover our work

Unhumbly Reserved

[Going Nowhere]

Expect the EBA to be strickly followed. Staff were told yesterday that all base transfers and upgrade/downgrades will be done in order of seniority. For EAA pilots who took junior Commands in PER, it probably won't end well.

That's partly the reason some pilot groups were taken off flying duties and were given closed-door meetings away from other staff while others were told via a general meeting or phone hook ups.

The leave balances in some bases are extremely high (BNE Q400 CAPT for example) and the company is targeting those people specifically. They won't have much of a choice, choose when to take your leave, or they'll choose it for you.

Whether or not it's enough to ride out the downturn, remains to be seen.

I feel for those who get lumped with this news leading up to Christmas. The company has said that they hope to have more news in 2-3 weeks once the vacancy notice and the EOI close.

Even for those not affected by this change, it's taken the shine off what was, for all it's faults, not a bad place to work.

Hang in their QLinkers and look out for those who you fly with over the next fews months.

[Tidbinbilla]

I have opened this thread in order to keep the Eastern and Sunstate EBA threads intact.

Some posts have been moved here to kick things off.

TID

[PPRuNeUser0161]

OK points taken. However by my calculations the net result of the changes to the SSA fleet is;

3 * Q400's coming into SSA. Two from Perth and one from Adelaide.

Two * Q300's being sold off.

The nett result of this is an increase of one airframe. Its true some people may be displaced around the network and BN was overstocked last time I checked but there will be around 20 crew required for AD and they will have to come from somewhere. There will be good opportunity in AD for those who are in a position to move and I can't see that base being entirely crewed from excess SSA crew alone. AD is a very sort after locality for pilots so provided the base hold's up over time I think the outlook is good and the economy will turn around at some point.

SN

[DeafStar]

No side deals out of this. Seniority will be the only factor if redundancy occurs. It's a rough deal for the Perth guys but they were all warned when they went that this is a possibility. Qlink doesn't have a good history of keeping new bases open.

As for priority or seniority exemptions.....unfortunately no.

[Hugh Jarse]

Soup Nazi,

You might want to have a chat with the guys that transferred to Adelaide Mk.1 and see how that panned out for them. The base was done and dusted in a few months. Most took mega financial hits as a result. Worse still was the toll on the family relationships of those affected.

I know I wouldn't voluntarily take a gig there based on the previous management's performance. And, based on the evidence from mates still working there, the present management are even less competent (and bigger narcissists), if that could be possible :ugh:

All I can say is good luck to all the remaining crew, and I hope nobody gets screwed.

[Australopithecus]

Soupy, the math means a net loss of at least two airframes, and shuffling of five (?) more, disrupting hundreds of lives when you include families. How you can put lipstick on that particular pig is beyond me.

Adelaide may be sought after:confused:, but do not minimise the get-wrenching emotional and logistical impact of a move like that. In my experience that's about half of a divorce right there.

This whole thing is nothing less than a Christmas beating.

Good luck to all affected. I was there once or twice and know that no matter how brave a face you wear, it takes a toll. Look after each other.

[Di_Vosh]

Soup Nazi

You're forgetting the "Eastern" side of the equation.

My calcs have Eastern losing three x Q400 positions. For an affected Perth pilot to relocate to Adelaide will mean moving to the bottom of the Sunstate seniority list.

I'd be thinking that most likely the Q300 Captaincies will be filled from the current Sunstate list and that only the FO positions will be available to any Perth transfers. Suddenly not that attractive, IMHO.

About the only plus is that realestate prices in Adelaide are lower than Perth.

Look at the track record for new crew bases:

Adelaide (MK I): A few months
Canberra: Three years (maybe four?)
Perth: Three years

Not great, esp. when you're thinking of moving a family with you.

DIVOSH!

[Di_Vosh]

As one of the pilots who've been forced to relocate when the Q300 left Melbourne, I can guarantee that the emotions that you and your partner/families go through can be brutal.

I went through the Company supplied EAP and if any of you are thinking of that then my advice is DON'T! The EAP counsellors in Melbourne were terrible. I stopped going when I realised that I was more angry after an EAP counselling session than I was before I went in.

If you need counselling, I'd suggest that you go via your GP.

DIVOSH!

[Fuel-Off]

This is going to be a mess of gigantic proportions. Now, this isn't just the normal post-announcement-pilot-hysterics that usually follow these decisions but this is going to hurt the affected rather badly. And the Company is only to blame.

When the PER base opened a few years ago, a few SSA guys went over to either go home or get a command. That came with resigning from SSA and going to the bottom of the EAA list. Now that the base has closed, that will leave a few junior commanders back to an FO slot with EAA out of SYD/MEL/MQL just to retain a degree of seniority - or they go back to SSA at the BOTTOM of the list as an FO in CNS/BNE (after some gave up a decent seniority - to fly the same friggen aircraft for the same friggen company). The FOs in PER will probably have to do the same thing, but in ADL - again at the bottom of the SSA list (and convert to the Q300). A complete quagmire of HR policy because of the Company's refusal to combine the two seniority lists.

PER was a SSA cabin crew base, with EAA techies, on a aircraft that is only on the SSA AOC, maintained by Network Aviation. The ADL base will be SSA tech and cabin crew, operating the Q300 which is on the EAA AOC (and rumoured to be maintained by Cobham contractors) We're one big happy family - but only when it suits the Company.

I am astounded that they have decided to do this just before Christmas and while both EAA and SSA have pilot EBAs open. That 18 month pay freeze - they can cram it with walnuts :mad:

Like the Feds and management have said, seniority clauses in each EBA will be followed to the letter - but don't tell that to our new 'Fleet Standardisation and Operational Compliance Captain'.

It's been said before and I'll say it again; look out for each other. It's just three simple words that make all the difference: Are you Ok?

Fuel-Off :ok:

[badboiblu]

Soup Nazi

You are forgetting about the four 300's taken out of Cairns and replaced by the two 400's.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I understand your side points people but I am talking about SSA here. Seniority will dictate who goes where and that is that at this stage. The Perth crews as I understand it will not go out of work but any positions within the SSA network will be offered to SSA crew before any Eastern crew are considered. That's a problem with having two EBA's and causes all sorts of heartaches for people.

The company doesn't have the best record with keeping bases open but surely one will stick soon???? After all SA is mineral rich and I think when the economy turns it should take off.

SN

[Going Nowhere]

The breakdown is;

CNS
all Q300's to go (4 frames) but 2 Q400's to be introduced = 2 less frames.

BNE
2 Q300's to go and 1 Q200 to move to SYD. 1 Q400 to be added = 2 less frames.

ADL
2 Q300's to be introduced from the 6 that are surplus in QLD.

4 aircraft to be removed from service, 2 of which were already announced in the recent financials.

23 positions for ADL, 11 Capt/10 FO, that includes a senior base pilot.

[rodent18]

Unfortunately the current management makes the previous one look like experts. The management structure has grown massively,and continues to grow, out of all proportion to the business and this is where the blowout in costs is occurring. In addition we have a rostering and scheduling system that has all tech and cabin crew scratching their heads (e.g. following an overnight a crew can remain in a hotel all day only to operate one sector home in the evening).

Has it not occurred to anyone the amazing timing coincidence of the release of these announcements within a month from the foreshadowed close off date for the EAA EBA.

I sense some ultimatums (i.e. bullying or harassment) coming up.

[Australopithecus]

Soup Nazi...

If you are under 45 you would have no adult experience of a recession, nor have a grasp on exactly how devastating is deflation in a primary sector like resources. China is in an announced period of credit tightening, which is depressing commodity prices below the cost of production. There are NO projects starting, and NO projects finishing after 2016

China raced years ahead of its own internal demand curve recently to build entire cities which are unoccupied. It has pretty much reinforced all the paving its going to do for years, and laid all the rails, too. All of that infrastructure is in inventory and will be for decades. The party appears to be over.

The economists respect reversion to the mean, as does nature. Before 1990 recessions used to occur every seven years or so. We owe the universe at least three downturns, so expect this one to be profound. While the resource sector is contracting, automotive and support manufacturing is likewise being hollowed out.

I wouldn't be talking like better days are around the corner. Absent more free money from the central banks we are screwed. With too much free money from the central banks we are really, really screwed. We are in an economic coffin corner, where either the thrust or the speedbrakes will end in tears.

Best,

BummerMan

[atlas12]

Fuel Off,

Said person can be the first to go when redundancies are called for :E

[noclue]

"There are NO projects starting, and NO projects finishing after 2016"

Maybe not in South Australia, Carmichael/Alpha appear to be gearing up for exports to India by 2016.
Expression of Interest- Carmichael Coal Mine Jobs (http://iminco.net/adani-carmichael-coal-mine-jobs/)

"This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to switch careers or look for a fresh start in mining in Queensland."

"When fully developed, the Carmichael Coal Mine will be the largest coal mine in Queensland"

[Australopithecus]

Sorry...I meant big construction projects, which always employ many more people short-term than are required once the property is producing.

On the larger implications of coal: While there are obvious difficulties, I reckon that coal will be both a political hot potato and a solid earner for years yet. For as long as the current government stays in power. Since that looks like thin ice, I would be open, if i were you, to seeing coal being hamstrung in the medium term.

I think that we are at a watershed moment in the whole carbon discussion. If, as I expect, climate reveals itself as "big weather" over the next five years, the lie that is "clean coal" may become unpalatable. Still, five years is a long time. More so if you factor in political inertia.

So that's coal, and the sub-continent. What say you about ore? And China?

[Fonz121]

Coal is done in my opinion. Yes it will still be a major energy source for the likes of India and China for the foreseeable future but it's definitely reached it's peak. I've pulled all of my super related shares out of the industry.

The coming few years will see the start of the next industrial revolution - the move to renewables on a large scale. Battery technology is only getting better and soon enough we'll all have storage cabinets (some say by 2020) in our garages where we'll store all of our own energy needs by day for use at night.

We'll be driving Tesla style cars around for 486km off a single charge (which we got for free from our roofs and storage systems).

Any company or Government planning for a future based on a healthy coal industry is run by a f**king idiot IMO.

But I digress. I feel for the Perth guys in this situation. I'm a bit perplexed as to why they made the AD base a sunnies one. Moving 21 crew from PH to AD seemed like the logical decision.

[Australopithecus]

Yes it would have been the logical move, but at whose expense? Doing it this way does Qantas escape paying for it?

Like any crime novel, follow the money. :(

[HappyBandit]

Fuel Off

I'll tell you why I think they made the announcement now….EBA negotiations have begun. No coincidence. As Going Nowhere said this does not bode well for EBA negotiations.

Personally I think the announcement could have definitely been expressed a whole lot better…most people I have spoken with didn't even know there was a review undergoing.

As for the Adelaide base….history has not been kind with outport bases and am skeptical of managements outlook especially considering they are not adding more 400 frames rather downgrading to 300's. I know for a fact that there are a number of 300 guys/gals from Cairns that were originally from Adelaide and wanting to return. Good luck for all concerned….it is a tough time for our colleagues!

[Normasars]

There's more to this one than meets the eye.

Don't think RPT, but perhaps Closed Charter. Have a read of Monday's(?) press release re Ceduna Airport and then join the dots.

Outside of Port Lincoln, there is no market to support 2 X 50 seat turbos. I say again, this is not for RPT.

As KABOY said on a different thread, there is history with this mob. I was directly effected in the demise of the previous Regional Jet operator. It didn't pan out well for anybody. Been there, done that and have the T shirt.

Get out. There's a big wide world out there people.

Best wishes to all!

[Humbly Reserved]

EBA will be to the letter, FACT!

1) PER crew will see their seniority reset with SAA. What could be worse

2) Fleet Freeze will still stand as is written in EBA (this leaves only ADL for all the classic drivers

3) Bids that see upgrades given will be penalized to save the company money (to pay out the next HR and management bonuses as well as all the cash they are presently p*ssing up the wall.

4) Crunch the numbers of the vacancy bids, They can't expect to fill 15% excess capacity to LWOP and attrition. I foresee redundancies.

What a Christmas Present!

Unhumbly

[newsensation]

The breakdown is also;

EASTERN PILOTS
Lose 3 Q400
Gain 1 Q200

SUNSTATE PILOTS

Lose 1 Q200
Lose 2 Q300 ( already announced)
Lose 2 Q300
Gain 3 Q400

Looks to me like the Eastern Pilot Group got the raw end of the deal

[Going Nowhere]

No fleet freeze at the moment. This is quite clearly stated to allow anyone to bid anywhere.

Looking at the seniority, junior CNS and BNE Capt's look to be hardest hit.

Redundancies look certain but not in the next 12-18 months.

Look at what happened to the 747/767 crew in Mainline. Draw down all the excess leave and then offer VR at the end of it. Fortunately we are looking at only a handful of redundancies potentially.

Already there are a few ppl putting their hand up for LWOP.

[Threewheeler]

If they lift the fleet freeze this will be a mess of biblical proportions.

TW

[Threewheeler]

If you take an FO slot to stay in CNS be prepared for the long haul back to command.

TW

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Its not all negative people. After all the company is offering LWOP! Anyone interested in a working holiday?, what about taking a jet gig somewhere safe in the knowledge you have a position back here in OZ waiting for you. There are a lot of crew OS would have loved that chance. Ideal for the those who are board and would like to try something without the risk cause not much will happen around here for quite a while.

SN

[Australopithecus]

Seriously Soup Nazi? I envy your remarkable emotional resilience.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Australopithecus
With your optimistic outlook mate it's a good thing you don't run the show!

SN

[Australopithecus]

Yes, it is. I wasn't being sarcastic when I wrote that i envied your ability to see a silver lining where I only see dark clouds.

[Steve Zissou]

Soup Nazi: you might want to upgrade to the new and improved Spell Checker Mark 5, your current one still isn't doing a wonderful job ... :bored:

[Boney]

Thousands and thousands of Auto workers laid off in 2015/16. Australian economy grinding to a halt over the same time frame. Our industry rooted for at least a couple of years. Mining boom over, probably for a decade?

I just don't understand?

Abbott said on Election night with his usual $hit eating grin, "Australia is open for business".

I just don't understand?

At least rich Mummy's can stay home sticking a titty in a bubs mouth for 100K a year while our Defence Forces are sent to yet another war on a similar arse rogering EBA deal as us.

Gees, it's enough to puff ya chest out and be proud to be an Aussie eh?

God, no wonder half my flying buddies left this rip off country a decade ago and laugh when I have a whinge to them!

[Karak]

Norma, Can i get a job on the C series?
I'm sure KA boy would come back for a MEL base as well:}

[Threewheeler]

There appears to be a meeting next week between the company and the EBA negotiating team to decide what's best for the soon to be displaced pilots. I wonder;

Will there be any interaction between the pilot representatives and the affected pilots to get their input into their future?

Will any of the pilot rep's be at all affected by the decision’s made that day?

I don't really understand get why we are discussing a fleet freeze, the way I see it if its removed the CNS crew lose out due to the overwhelming numbers of BN crew that will bid, if it remains the CNS crew lose out due to the narrow fleet choice and location available.

What is needed is a transitional agreement that caters for the crew who are in no man's land after the 300 is removed from CNS base and the BN base. Switching base to the detriment of another workmate who may be suffering is not a good idea. It will divide the pilot group.

3W

[HappyBandit]

Threewheeler

One word......Seniority

[PPRuNeUser0161]

HB
Yep that's the way it is. You make your choices and then wear it. Sometimes it goes your way and sometimes it doesn't. One door shuts and another opens. This game is a gamble from the start to the finish.

Go with it!

SN

[NowThatsFunny]

Three wheeler,
Instead of posting questions here about what the pilot reps will or won't do, how about you ask the pilot reps themselves through the normal method of communication.:ugh:

"Will any of the pilot rep's be at all affected by the decision’s made that day?"
Well there are 500+ pilots in the EAA/SSA group, of which maybe 4 or 5 at most will be pilot reps dealing with this matter. So what do you think are the chances of pilot reps being affected?

If there were more pilots willing to step up and be a part of the council rather than sitting back and whinging on here that the reps aren't representing you the way you want them to (maybe because you don't talk to them)......

[Arnold E]

Three wheeler,
Instead of posting questions here about what the pilot reps will or won't do, how about you ask the pilot reps themselves through the normal method of communication.

Or......how about becoming one of the reps, then you will know exactly what is going on. :ok:

[tea & bikkies]

Have a good think guys and gals before you bid (because you can). Workmates are going to lose marriages and houses over this.

[airdualbleedfault]

With a coal fired power station opening every week in China Fonz, not sure who the f***ing idiot is?

[sillograph]

Are network still busy?

Maybe some opportunity there for displaced crew, although I doubt it.

[Fonz121]

Hi airdualbleedfault

This isn't really the place for this discussion so I'll say what I have to say and leave it at that.

Yes you're right, China have been opening a new coal fired power station every week. I did say "Yes it will still be a major energy source for the likes of India and China for the foreseeable future".

But this is slowing and a lot of nations are doing the opposite. There's slight disagreement on when we'll hit peak coal (between 2014 and 2020 depending on the report) but it's generally agreed if it hasn't happened yet it will be soon.

One such report is from a London based NGO called Carbon Tracker titled "Carbon supply cost curves: Evaluating financial risk to coal capital expenditures". It's an interesting read. One paragraph that summarises the situation well is this: My bold.

Over the last three years, the Bloomberg Global Coal Equity Index has lost half of its value while broad market indices are up over 30 percent. In the pure coal sector there is only one trend – downward; coal prices are down, returns are down, share prices are down. Some analysts are already calling a structural decline in the seaborne thermal coal market.


Full paper at http://www.carbontracker.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CTI-Coal-report-Sept-2014-WEB1.pdf

You obviously think differently on this matter which is fine. I've put my money where my mouth is (so to speak) by taking it out of any coal related investments. I trust you're loading up if you're of the same opinion as Monsieur Abbott. Coal is the future indeed. :D

Feel free to PM if you want to carry on the debate.

Back to the topic at hand.

[yadot]

Instead of exploding into emotion, I will be factual


One fact: Canberra base opened as a SSA base for the Q400. A certain F/O at the time, perhaps the second person on this page,
Principal Officers (http://www.afap.org.au/About-Us/Principal-Officers.asp) don't want to make this certain...up to you to decide...


spat the dummy when a pilot, 1 number less on the seniority list was required by the company to fly out of Brisbane as the Captain. Oh, I better call in sick after turning up to work!


I hope all of SSA is united in this, including the SSA pilot council. Stop being a bunch of selfish, ignorant bunch of bullies. How about agreeing to merging the seniority with EEA for no extra money for yourself. Forget the fact that 'if' jets come! Oh, I could be out of pocket if the wages are higher than the Q400. You will support people and their families! IF YOU HAD A HEART, YOU WOULD HAVE DONE THIS. YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTING THE PILOTS FOR THE LAST 5 YEARS!


We talk about pilot unity, well, time to get on with it SSA council!

[DeafStar]

Ok I'll bite. Yadot, the only people blocking a combined list is the Company. BOTH pilot councils have a few times tried to get them combined only to be blocked by Qantas HR.

As for jets, the SSA pilot council was asked many moons ago to put a jet rate into the EBA by....the Company. I'm pretty sure most if not all SSA pilots don't believe for one second jets are coming. Cobham seem to do that job just fine.

I know you're looking for someone to blame at this emotional time. Perhaps look towards those that make the decisions. Yep, the Company.

Neither pilot council was consulted at all prior to the 'big annoucment' and both pilot councils are no doubt working very hard to get the best for the pilots out of this mess.

If you have any concerns I suggest you talk to your reps. Otherwise, STFU.

[atlas12]

Soup Nazi,

I agree in principle with what you are saying, but if you know where these magical wonderful jet jobs are going for that are openly taking Q400 drivers then please feel free to PM me :cool:

FYI I am in 2 holding pools with major oz airlines and there is almost zero movement. I'd be more than happy to take LWOP :)

[PPRuNeUser0161]

There is no pint winging about the pilots rep's. You voted them in just a couple of months ago remember. I believe there was around 105 votes cast in SSA of which about 23 were cast from the CNS based crew. Pathetic turnout when you consider there are 254 on the list of which 60 or so are CNS based.

If you didn't vote STFU! The Rep's I know have good intentions but remember the council is bigger than any one individual.

SN

[Hugh Jarse]

You people keep banging your heads against a brick wall, and all you're doing is hurting your heads.

i was on the integration committee WAY BACK in 2007 when both EAA and SA (not SSA) came to an agreement that would have met both pilot group's expectations.

The company knocked it back then, and, I believe has done so once more since.

I still remember the look on Snake's face when we told him we had made an in-principle agreement. It took him 3 weeks to come back to say they "couldn't do it". The company has NEVER had any intention of merging the pilot groups as long as they have the leverage to keep them bidding against each other industrially.

The same as those dumbarses that still, after over 20 years, believe that EAA/SA will get jets. These same people fell for the diversion that included a "jet rate" into the EBA. (Anyone with half a brain would know that this clause was only there to get Cobham to sharpen their pencils at contract renewal time). You don't have to worry about that now - Network is the new lever for jet ops, and will go head-to-head with Cobham now that they have an RPT licence.

And you still won't get jets!

Wake up to yourselves - forget the jets - work together and protect what you have. If it means giving the company a bloody nose, then so be it.

That's the only way to gain traction in your EBA. Stand up to them!

Punch them in the nose.

NB: For the FO's stalled on promotion - Ask your captains next time you fly with them why they persist on working days off? Every day worked on a day off is a promotion lost for you. I refused to work days off when I was there for that very reason.

And you FO's that work your days off - Wonder why your duty hours are so high? Wonder why you're so low on the seniority list? Because the company deliberately holds establishment numbers low, and counts on a number of you working days off.

Just think - those of you FO's facing possible redundancy may have sealed your fate by working days off. Nobody likes to see work colleagues made redundant, but seniority is king. By working your days off you may have prevented the company recruiting extra FO's if you had declined to work days off.

You guys really need to get organised. You need to keep the line of communication open between the 2 pilot councils (if it isn't already so) and agree to keep a baseline position with your EBA's. That way the company cannot continue to split the 2 groups in the way it has done for the last 20 years.

That will require determination. Determination that seems to be lacking.

[Arnold E]

If you didn't vote STFU!

:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

[Threewheeler]

Nowthatsfunny
With a matter of this nature I would have thought there would be some consultation between those attending the meeting, who by the way are not all elected by the general pilot body, and those affected directly by its outcome. Sure we can give them a call but that's not taking an across the board survey of the general feeling amongst the crew. Nothing heard, only silence!

3W

[DeafStar]

What would a survey achieve? Also both councils put out communications via AFAP website and emails. Are you not a member of the AFAP?

The level of bull**** coming out of some of you is astounding! If you are junior and having your life ruined by the instabilities of this industry it might be time to look for another career. Not everyone went from flying school to the right hand seat of a Dash 8.

There have and will continue to be, many swings and roundabouts in aviation. Deal with it.

[Threewheeler]

Deafstar
Give up you idiot, it takes the AFAP a fortnight to expel gas. This meeting is happening this Tuesday. You couldn't be more wrong!

3W

[Fuel-Off]

Threewheeler,

A communique was sent out the very next morning from the Feds outlining the lack of information they received from the Company. To those who can't seem to get it - THEY DID NOT KNOW UNTIL THAT MORNING OF THE ANNOUNCEMENT!!

(Sorry for the caps lock). I swear, for a bunch of 'intelligent' people in the roles that you guys perform, some are just outright dumb. The Union has suggested a few things regarding the EOI - I suggest you read that communique.

What would you have the Union do? Jump into hysterics, announcing the sky is falling and we're all ruined? Or a calm, collected approach (I know SSA reps have adopted this approach - and good on 'em :ok: ). The Union CAN'T say anything with any clarity about the potential redundancies until the results of the EOI come out which is apparently the 15th Dec.

As Deafstar has already said, swings and roundabouts; ebb and flow - such is the nature of this beast, and we'll never quell it. I've been made redundant before - and it sucks, but we all get up, dust ourselves off, and carry on forward.


...and no, I'm not a Union Rep, just a member.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Di_Vosh]

Threewheeler

In one post you're criticising the union for not putting out a survey and that there's been nothing but silence from them. The next post you're saying that "it takes the AFAP a fortnight to expel gas".

There were fairly detailed communiques from the AFAP to both EAA and SSA groups on the 27th. (three days before your "nothing but silence" post).

It is not possible for a union to create a meaningful survey, distribute it to the pilot groups, get significant feedback, and then analyse that feedback to formulate a measured response to the company within a week. Particularly since there are so many unknowns relating to the details of the changes.

So what an adult would do is to contact the union and/or pilot reps and voice their concerns so that they can be answered by the company when the reps go to meet them (today for EAA and tomorrow for SSA).


DIVOSH!

[DeafStar]

3wheeler,

Explain why am an idiot? Or do you have your head so far stuck up your butt that facts are unable to penetrate?

[Di_Vosh]

Pretty detailed info from todays meeting with the SSA guys on the Feds website.

DIVOSH!

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Yes very enlightening. This could create quite a mess if redundancy, compulsory relocation and demotion are directed in reverse seniority across the fleet and not just limited to the 300 fleet. I suppose the EBA doesn't stipulate anything about different fleets or bases in the seniority clause and does include reduction of establishment.

SN

[atlas12]

What is the deal if you are interested in lwop to fly elsewhere within the QF group for a few years but no one is hiring??? Bid for lwop on the condition you get an interview first? :confused:

[roger_ramjet]

I think you've answered your own question there - if no one is hiring then...

[NowThatsFunny]

ThreeWheeler,
Get off your ass, update your email address with AFAP (so you actually get updates from the union), and if you don't get the information you want (which Di Vosh has pointed out maybe you don't even know what you want from the union) then get off your ass and do something about it. By your actions you are lazy as F.ck or Gen Y. Either way, grow up and take responsibility for yourself and your career.

NowThatsFunny

[DeafStar]

At least strict seniority will determine who stays where. It's good to know at senior FOs on the dead fleet will get to stay where they want if a more junior FO is on the Q400. Not everyone will be happy of course but seniority is protected.

[atlas12]

In response to my own question, LWOP is an EOI *only* and isn't binding but will give you the option to move on it down the track should you wish to do so.

[Boney]

Deafstar

Not really!

Changes/Pineapple affect 300 crew only - but bids are open to everyone.

This means, at least 5 400 FO's get promoted to left hand seat. At the same time, at least 10 Captains on the 300 move back to 400 FO.

Gees, the sick leave entitlements of those 10 former Captains in 2015 is gonna cop an absolute flogging?

[atlas12]

Hi Boney,

Not sure what the situ is down in SYD, but in BNE a lot of senior 300 captains/training captains are bidding over to the 400. I'd be surprised if any Q400 FO's get a look in for 400 commands :confused: Not a lot of morale around the crew room these days now that time to command just went up by another year or two.....

[Going Nowhere]

The vacancy notice states there is 0 vacancies on the 400 in BNE with the only ones coming up depending on how the EOI pans out.

Not sure how you can bid for a slot that doesn't exist, you've never been able to before.

[DeafStar]

Changes not limited to Q300 crew. For example some junior Q400 FO's will be forced to move out of Cairns for example. Depends on bids to Adelaide.

[Fuel-Off]

Not sure how you can bid for a slot that doesn't exist, you've never been able to before.

Unless you're best mates with the CP, then you can do whatever the hell you want!

EBA clauses be damned!

Fuel-Off :ok:

[atlas12]

EOI is as good as a bid isn't it otherwise why bother filling it out :rolleyes:

[Fonz121]

Changes not limited to Q300 crew. For example some junior Q400 FO's will be forced to move out of Cairns for example. Depends on bids to Adelaide.


Where is this info coming from Deafstar?

[DeafStar]

From reading the correspondence on the AFAP website in the Sunstate section.

[DeafStar]

They can if a senior Q300 FO wants to stay in his/her base.

[Fonz121]

Really? Am I interpreting it wrong (genuine question)? That's not now I'm reading it.

[muffman]

The only thing you can bid for is a vacancy. Surely given that the junior BNE 400 FO's positions are not vacant, nobody else can bid into them and force them out of town.

[Boney]

Deaf Star - I could be wrong but I didn't read it that way either.

The way I understand it is even if you are a very junior 400 FO in CS/BN, you are safe?

If you a senior 300 Captain, you may still end up a 400 FO?

[Going Nowhere]

I don't see it as any different to any other vacancy notice.

If there's 1 400 CAPT slot in BNE, and the top 5 eligible people bid, only the highest gets it. You don't give all 5 a Command, and then kick off the bottom 4 400 Capt's.

The training dept doesn't have anywhere near the resources to retain 50-100 pilots. Not to mention the cost, which is the whole reason we started down this path to begin with.

[Josh Cox]

I speak with no authority, but, it is becoming apparent to me that anyone on the seniority list below the most senior CS Q300 Captain is not safe.

When X number of pilots are bidding for X number of positions, the process is straight forward.

As soon as anything else happens, forced fleet changes, forced basings, reduction in establishment numbers and/or redundancy etc etc, Seniority, irrespective of rank, base or fleet defines the outcome.

Irrespective of rank, base or fleet, there, potentially is the fly in the ointment.

Very confusing and I am glad I am not the one trying to slot the whole process together.

Happy to be proven wrong.

[DeafStar]

Josh is 100% correct. This isn't a straight up bid. Senior crew cannot be FORCED to move when a more junior FO has a position in the same base. All freezes are off. Seniority is preserved. Will be a big blow to some junior guys. If you don't believe me ring the AFAP.

[0tto]

I don't see it as any different to any other vacancy notice.

The key phrase this time is " reduction in establishment". The company has admitted to the fact that there will be a reduction in establishment, therefore retention and demotion will be based strictly on seniority.

[Fonz121]

So can a Perth Captain take the position of a SY Captain junior to them? I was under the impression that a certain number of commands would become available in Sydney and everybody can bid on them, if the PH skippers happened to be senior enough for a position then so be it, but they can't take the spot of someone else already in Sydney purely because they're Jr to them.

The EBA doesn't explicitly state any of this. Like everything in it, it's open to interpretation.



http://oi59.tinypic.com/111mdyp.jpg


Does 57.4.1 (c) and (d) refer to the whole company? Or only those affected by the reduction of fleet? In this case PH 400 and Sunstate 300 drivers?

It doesn't say. So people will interpret it the way they want which is generally the way which benefits them. I suspect 57.5 will come into play on this one.

I'm just as confused as the next bloke but as stated above I can't see the company being able (or willing) to re-train so many people.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Fonz121
I believe that's already happened. 57.4.1 (c) & (d) will prevail. That's my understanding.

SN

[Going Nowhere]

My understanding is that those clauses only come into play with pilots who are deemed to be in surplus once the chairs are all filled.

For example, what if EVERY 300 Captain in BNE bids for the 400? There's no spot unless some come up as a consequence of other movements or the company exercise some EOI slots. So does the company give a 400 spot to every Capt on the 300 that bid who has seniority to hold one, making X amount of BNE 400 Capt's now surplus?

Or does the company fill what positions it can on the vacancy notice. Those capt's who don't get their bid and are surplus to requirements on the 300 get to bid for 400 FO slots if they desire?

No one has come out and said how the whole process will work.

[atlas12]

This is so confusing. Here is my take on it (which is probably wrong):

Lets say there are 8 Q400 vacancies as per the EOI, and 10 surplus 300 Captains. The top 8 will be awarded Q400 commands as per the vacancies, and then two of the most junior Q400 captains will be displaced as per 57.4.1 (c). Or possibly, the most two junior 300 captains will be demoted to FO's, which would actually be the more logical solution. However, if there are no FO positions available, then two junior FO's will either be displaced or terminated.

My brain hurts.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Redundancy and forced displacement are based on seniority, period. That's what seniority is. It secures the position of the longer serving pilot when there is a reduction in establishment. Pilots don't displace pilots, the company applies the above mentioned clause to deal with surpluses of personnel if required.

SN

[HappyBandit]

Yep soup is correct. You cant be knocked off your perch. The only way it would occur is if company offers redundancies or as soup said reduces establishment numbers.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

If you read the latest briefing from the AFAP, the question was asked, is this reduction of establishment?

Answer: YES (from the company)

So, the scenario is this. There are around 23 positions in Adelaide to be filled. IF they are not filled by the current process of advertised vacancies. The company may direct pilots, irrespective of base or fleet and in order of reverse seniority, to take whatever vacancies are remaining. From there of there are still excess numbers at a base, reverse redundancy may apply at the companies discretion.

I doubt redundancy will be needed however compulsory relocation looks likely.

SN

[Going Nowhere]

The 400 fleet isn't being reduced in QLD, therefore 57.4.1 (c) doesn't apply to the 400.

Another point, just because there are 8 400 slots, doesn't mean that the top 8 300 capt's get first go. The top 8 who meet the command req get them. That inclides any 400 Capt from CNS and any BN 400 FO's who may be higher up than a 300 capt.

[CaptainInsaneO]

"Employment opportunities" = important term
It's in section 57.4.1 in which sub sections a,b,c and d apply.

Employment opportunities means vacancies - not somebody else's job.

If you could bid for somebody else's job because you were more senior, that means that people would've been bumping other people way before this announcement was made last week.

This would make it continuously open slather and the company would be forever doing conversion/upgrade training...before the announcement was made.

57.4.1 is for vacancies.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

You can't bid for someone else's job or displace another pilot. Only the company can displace someone, make them redundant or demote them in accordance with that clause. Pilots don't displace pilots.

The clause must be read as it is, nothing else is implied.

SN

[Fonz121]

Does anyone know the net loss of pilot positions in the Sunnies network? Is it four aircraft arriving and six going?

[CaptainInsaneO]

I think you're reading the sub sections out of context.

The sub sections from 57.4.1 only apply if the section 57.4.1 is valid.

For 57.4.1 to be valid, there must be open vacancies.

For example, imagine a 6 year FO who just met command requirement. He/she can't go and then take a command position from anyone who was employed in the six years prior and demote them to FO - just because they are more senior. Again, before the announcement was made.

57.4.1 says "opportunities" - if this word was omitted, the above scenario could/would occur. But it does say opportunities, so this means vacancies.

I'm not sure what you mean by pilots don't displace pilots, the company does? I can't find it in the EBA.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

The company will avoid jobs losses if at all possible, even if they have to carry extra numbers for a while, they have said this and there is no reason to doubt that statement. It's not worth them making 10 people redundant now just to put another 10 on again in 12 months. But they do need to crew the Adelaide base and if that can be done by the current voluntary bidding process then that will avoid any pain for those who do not wish to go there. It may also be an opportunity for some more junior captains to stay in command.

SN

PS: CaptainInsanO, I recommend you contact your base rep or union (AFAP) for clarification.

[DeafStar]

Guys its not the actual bid that will bump people, its the consequentials.

[Strobe Runner]

Adelaide commands will be filled by bids....the FO positions are a different matter.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

New briefing for all concerned has just hit the AFAP website. Pretty much spells it out as it is.

SN

[ejet3]

so captains in perth who get demoted to fo will NOT keep command pay! i know of fos in eastern who are on command pay right now :mad:

[Arnold E]

Relax, how long are the Adelaide jobs going to last anyway, has been tried before. Its not this round you have to worry about, but the next.:hmm:

[AviatoR21]

LWOP, is it really a realistic option with no one hiring? Surely the company know this. Yes, there is more outside aviation but I only know a few who were professionals before flying.

Then again, not all companies will take hires on a LWOP scenario as some require a letter of resignation. Good luck to you all!

[noclue]

I fear we'll need another John Izzo style course after this.
Course 2 titled "stepping down"

[Josh Cox]

CaptainInsaneO,

I believe Soup Nazi et al are correct, let me put it this way (IMHO):

Cairns: Everyone below the most senior Q300 Captain will be reshuffled ( read: in strict seniority / reverse seniority [as applicable], potential promotions, demotions, re-fleeting and forced base changes ).

"Plus"

Brisbane: everyone below the most senior Q300 Captain who no longer has a line of flying will be re-shuffled ( read: in strict seniority / reverse seniority [as applicable], potential promotions, demotions, re-fleeting and forced base changes ).

So if you are below either of those two points on the seniority list you need to be flexible.

For example: I am 114 on the Sunstate list, presently a Q300 Captain in Cairns, I am well below the most senior Q300 Captain, so I could be demoted, forced to another base etc etc, but not before any Pilot below me on the seniority list. There is also the potential of me dislodging someone in Cairns presently on the Q400, be it Captain or FO who is below me, saying this brings me no joy, but that is the system.

I am pretty sure you can be dislodged from your current position if you are below those pilots, that is why everyone needs to fill out a bid form and EOI.

If you are above those two points on the seniority list, I believe the bidding process in normal.

Happy to be proven wrong on any of the above.

[Tidbinbilla]

Black belt won't be back to this thread.

Nor will anyone else who may have designs on hijacking this, or any of the EBA threads.

[Josh Cox]

How about f#%k off?

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth ? :)

[tea & bikkies]

All very quiet here, anyone heard any news yet?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Makes you wonder what's the hold up? It's a simple mathematical process?

SN

[roger_ramjet]

My sources tell me that management will spend most of next week interviewing those "most affected" and the actual vacancy results will be published Friday the 19th.

[atlas12]

Nah they are too busy "accidentally" sending emails to pilots :D

[PPRuNeUser0161]

One question not asked here yet is what are QLINK up to putting two Q300's into AD? PLC alone doesn't really justify a base ?

SN

[On eyre]

My bet would be to take back Olympic Dam from Alliance and add Whyalla then when Olympic Dam expansion finally goes ahead in the next few years and a new airport built quit the 300's and bring back the Q400's.

[Going Nowhere]

Have heard Whyalla Council has been vocal in getting a 2nd carrier. The ADL base numbers reflect 2 full time lines of flying so expect something a bit closer to March.

[DeafStar]

Jenny still banging on about reps! Who would have thought? Repeated requests for actual info not just a disguised whinge have been asked here. My guess is you are very low on the seniority list and are still crying "ME! ME! ME!"

Good riddance to wherever you have to move to and enjoy working Christmas day.

Idiot.

[Di_Vosh]

JennyTal

Same whinge over and over again! At least now you can't delete the thread when everyone else disagrees with you. :ouch:

Well said Yadot. I, like most, am only paying Union fees for the Loss of License Cover. What's sad is that the reps think otherwise. Nothing achieved for me over many years.

As I replied to you in an earlier thread (that you deleted) a union is only as strong as it's members. Pilot unions tend to be weak because pilots are piss-weak themselves and your above quote confirms that!

DIVOSH!

[Josh Cox]

Come on guys, do we really want our peers from other airlines who read this thread to think of us like this ?, name calling and insults.

Jenny, nominate for the next vacancy on your council and forge the changes you desire.

[Di_Vosh]

You two clowns keep thinking that. Funny how little respect you both have in BNE and MEL respectfully.

Interesting comment. I'm based in Melbourne, know all the pilots there very well and was a pilot rep in the not so distant past. Can't say I agree.

It may come as a shock to you but there are a lot of pilots at a lot of our bases who're going to get some very bad news this week. Some of them come onto this site (and this thread) in the hope of some useful news and possibly some help.

What they don't need are people trying to hijack a thread with unhelpful comments or juvenile rants. So how about you grow up a bit and contribute to the thread in a useful way.

DIVOSH!

P.S. I myself am about to be relocated to Sydney in a few weeks time as a result of the Q300 leaving Melbourne, and I know what these guys are going through.

[Tidbinbilla]

JennyTal won't be bothering you for a little while ;)

[harrowing]

THANKYOU Tidbinbilla.

[Di_Vosh]

so I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with somewhere else as well.

My guess would be Mt Gambier...

DIVOSH!

[roger_ramjet]

And this....

No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/business/bps-138m-investment-for-international-helicopter-company-bristow-to-set-up-ceduna-air-base/story-fni6uma6-1226906321864)

[Southern handler]

My guess would be a third aircraft out of ADL in a year or so to either increase frequency and/or another port

[ejet3]

why did 3 guys who lost there commands keep command pay for a year but guys in perth who loose it go straight back to fo pay? :D good to see the eba is fair!