You have got payrise!

[12wheeler]

Just check your company e-mail!

[RAT Management]

Nice letter from the man that reckoned we deserved no pay rise as part of his pay scale review. Only to now be so compassionate by deciding we were always worth rewarding by an increase. I especially like how he is trying to blame others for the delay, while saying he will not talk about it any more until January. Maybe CC would be appropriate until talks come in January :D:D:D:ugh:

[broadband circuit]

Don't you love RH's comment:

It is the strongly held view that it is not right to keep the flight crew community waiting any longer when it has been agreed that pay scales need to be adjusted. A fact that is supported by some of the shared data on pilot packages within the industry.

Really??? This is the 2014 pay review, the same one which he conducted at the end of 2013 and determined there was no need for a salary adjustment.

Remember people, this is the 2014 rise. In another month, they'll probably be announcing 2015 raises for ground staff, once again without any productivity trade off. I wonder what our 2015 adjustment will be......

[Bangaluru]

Ya reckon MM? Stockholm Syndrome it's called.

[boxjockey]

MadMajor = Disconnected.

I don't think this changes anything, except we make a little bit more while we're in CC!!

box

[Bob Hawke]

Madmajor - company stooge.

[DessertRat]

Madmajor -freeloader

[McNugget]

A freeloader, perhaps. But frankly, I'm only in for the insurance at this point.

The GC and AOA leadership have, once again, proven themselves unfit for purpose. They have in no way represented the wishes of the membership.

That much is a fact.

[ColonelAngus]

When will you people learn?

[bellcrank88]

Non AOA members. I really don't know how you can look at yourself in the mirror?

Go ahead and make some excuse to justify your selfish, jellyfish position. I am sure you can convince yourself that you are right if you try hard enough.

Bottom line, if not for the AOA and the work of the committee members past and present, there would not have been a pay raise.

Go crawl back under your rock.

AOA Members, celebrate, take the money and continue your personal CC.

[Cheap Labour]

Where is our Statutory Pay?? No longer a priority?

[744drv]

Bottom Line Bellcrank:

The Company forced the pay rise on us that the Union did not want. Market forces are the reason the Company wants us to have this pay rise. It may have been backdated due to the CC sabre rattling, but lets face it the GC was not exactly a rallying cry in leading CC.

[Pucka]

Bell rank..you're a ****. What freaking pay rise???? I haven't had a bloody pay rise since 1996!!! How dare you make such a critical and disingenuous comment for those who have lost faith in an Association.. Small a deliberate...an association that has no interest in protecting, representing or supporting those who grew this airline..small a again... So that scum like you can quaterise the benefits the likes of the old guard have won for you.

[ColonelAngus]

If it were not for the AOA the company would NEVER have forced on us a salary adjustment against which we voted. True.

The company would have given us the same, sub-inflation salary adjustment. We just wouldn't have previously voted against it.

That's the only difference.

[ColonelAngus]

bellcrank, if the AOA members should continue their "personal CC," what will be the difference IF the GC calls for AOA-wide CC?

Nothing, except that the company will have clear justification for defensive rostering.

That's a big IF, too.

AOA (different contracts, pay rates, pilot groups around the world; different salary adjustments offered to different groups; company pay offer divided the groups basically half-half) + company imposes rejected pay offer = AOA impotence

[wheels up]

I agree. I personally can't see cc making much of a difference, except that we will get screwed more by rostering. I hazard a guess that most of those pilots working g s etc. are not AOA members anyway.

[OK4Wire]

No email or payrise for me.

Nothing for based crew?

[Captain Dart]

Isn't it, after years of inflation, not a pay 'rise' but a reduced pay cut?

[744drv]

E mail is addressed to "all flight crew except those based in Australia and Canada". I guess this is because negotiations continue for these bases.

The most fortunate group, however, are UK Unified FO1 – FO4 who get a 5% pay rise. Which goes to show why we have had this increase forced upon us. Why does this (non existent) group get a proportionately higher raise than everyone else? Is it so the recruiters can lie to new joiners about the salary they will receive when they are at this seniority level and take up a UK base? Or is it because CX anticipate recruiting directly onto the base?

[Bangaluru]

I'm not sure your guess is right wheels. My guess would be that being an AOA member or not has no influence on most CX pilots' decisions to work G days. Despite (like others have said) years and years of AOA pronouncements clearly explaining the negative results of doing so.

[ColonelAngus]

744drv, they are really much smarter than we are, yet are very successful in making us think they are not. They've been doing this for 150 years. You? I? Certainly not for that long...

[Flap10]

they are really much smarter than we are, yet are very successful in making us think they are not. They've been doing this for 150 years

You really give them way too much credit. I've been here long enough to realize that they are one of the most inept bunch of managers I have ever seen. They have so far succeeded in controlling the pilot body not because of their smarts, but because we haven't had the will and courage to fight. We still nowhere as united as we should be. Unfortunately there are still many self serving individuals.

Put this airline in a more competitive environment with a real union and then let's see how great and intelligent our pathetic managers are.

[744drv]

Sorry Col Angus, having that attitude is rather self defeating, as F10 points out. I can assure you that I have a better education than any of our managers and I certainly refuse to accept that they are more intelligent than I am. What intelligence they have has been better practiced at being underhand and deceitful .... that I will give them.

[CXtreme]

I just love those Captains who give jump seats only to cockpit and cabin crew who are Union members. A perk the AOA negotiated. Just a pity there is so few Captains doing this.
Freeloaders, that money you save on membership fee's , reinvest it in full fare tickets.

[broadband circuit]

Freeloaders, that money you save on membership fee's , reinvest it in full fare tickets.

What he said. :ok:

[ColonelAngus]

OK, Flap10 and 744drv,

Yes, they are not very smart, inherently, but, due to our stupidity (define that how you will), lack of resolve, and general disorganization, it doesn't take much for them to play the card game such as you have seen since the early 90s and are continuing to see now.

[Steve the Pirate]

@744drv

I can assure you that I have a better education than any of our managers and I certainly refuse to accept that they are more intelligent than I am.

Come, come, come, don't sell yourself short. To quote Bertrand Russell,

"We are faced with the paradoxical fact that education has become one of the chief obstacles to intelligence and freedom of thought.

Oh, hang on a minute.... :E

STP

[ChinaBeached]

McNugget, as you wrote:
A freeloader, perhaps. But frankly, I'm only in for the insurance at this point. The GC and AOA leadership have, once again, proven themselves unfit for purpose. They have in no way represented the wishes of the membership. That much is a fact.

Please elaborate how, as a a C-Scale iCadet with all your illustrious experience and time in HK, let alone CX, you can "once again" make such sweeping comments. If the AOA & CX pilot body stood up against the lowering of T&C's you wouldn't even be at CX. So I believe you should be thanking the AOA for their "unfit for purpose" status as you describe. After all had the AOA of truly represented the "wishes of the membership" you & your ilk would not be there.

Embarrassingly you see yourself as part of the solution when you're mere existence at CX greases the slippery spirally slope downward.

But your first sentence was spot on! :ok: That much is a fact

[McNugget]

Hahaha, so you're still here. That is hilarious.

Why don't you worry about things that concern you.

I doubt you'll find many within the CX pilot group who disagrees with me. Then again, you're not to know that.

Get a life, you sad little troll. I can't begin to comprehend how poorly your life must have worked out for you to continue whining on these boards.

PS. That was my LAST sentence, not my first. You illiterate sad act.

[ChinaBeached]

Freeloader.

You said it. 1st sentence. (I'm typing this slowly for you just in case).

Does the insurance you're "only in it for" cover your yellow spine? Or is there someone, somewhere you can undercut and cheapen to get that sorted out as well?

[McNugget]

There probably is. If it personally affects you aswell, then so much he better; I'll take it.

Does your insurance package cover the psychiatric care that you so clearly need?

You do realise that coming on here, ranting and raving like a little schoolgirl about CX - some 6 years after you interviewed, and some 4 years after turning down a new package; is actually psychotic.

Seek help, you sad, bitter troll.

[ChinaBeached]

Help received - thanks for your concern. It came via a widebody DEFO job with a package on par with B-Scale. I'll be able to retire comfortably from it. What's more - brace yourself - I did't screw over my colleagues and industry as a whole to get it! I could tell you more but it involves words like "experience" and "credentials". (Try google for a basic definition).

The AOA's inaction which you moan about by allowing the disgraceful lowering of recruitment standards & remuneration package is what got you the job in the first place. Irony?

Now, back to how a self described freeloader C-Scale iCadet like yourself warrants the AOA to be "unfit for purpose" (with all your experience in HK and CX).

I'm only asking you to be accountable & elaborate on the words you wrote.

Troll? Because I'm still fascinated and shocked that guys like you still chest-beat about screwing your own colleagues over and the wider pilot population in general? Because my opinion differs from yours? Because I have many, many friends at CX whom I take an active interest in and visit regularly in HK and we discuss these things in HK and when catching up on layovers all over the globe? In your eyes, of course. Once again because I challenge and question you and (try) to make you accountable for your decision and words.

There are other threads you could read but I note you've avoided.... "Dear SO" (here some help, click here: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/551589-dear-so.html) and the "RA and S/O Did Nothing" (and here: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/549863-ra-s-o-did-nothing.html) so you can once again laud how you are respected at CX.

Feeloader. Your words.

[LS8C1]

'' Because I'm still fascinated and shocked that guys like you still chest-beat about screwing your own colleagues over and the wider pilot population in general? Because my opinion differs from yours? Because I have many, many friends at CX whom I take an active interest in and visit regularly in HK and we discuss these things in HK and when catching up on layovers all over the globe?''

Christ you're even more dull than I thought. Haven't you got anything else to talk about?

[ChinaBeached]

HA! Another typical iCadet C-Scale response.... No surprises.

Yes, I could talk about other things. We could discuss single pilot night ops, NDB approaches into black holes, scalloping, flight planning your own flight, freezing levels vs min lowest safe altitudes, scud running, 8+ sector days, refuelling your own aircraft, aeroplanes with (brace yourself!) "no autopilot", or even "flying an aircraft", etc but I'm sure you're already bewildered and confused. We could discuss integrity, about earning a job and not screwing over a pilot body or wider community in general to accept a job on disgracefully lower terms and conditions. We could discuss the moral implications of undercutting a market for self gain. We could discuss what a union or association is there for, what solidarity is, etc.... But again I fear you'll be lost, dazed and confused at the words "integrity", "spine" and "conscience". I know you think all these things are "dull".

But this topic and thread has to do with the pay dispute at CX, the AOA and discussion thereof. Some people like McNugget believe the pilot association is just an insurance policy for self interest alone and moans about their inadequacy whereby all the while that precise inadequacy is what provided you and him the job in the first place. So, I simply wanted to challenge his hypocritical and ignorant statements. As a self confessed "freeloader" I wanted him or her to elaborate and be accountable for those statements.

In the mean time shouldn't you be working on your EK CV so you can daze and amaze them with your P2X hours??

[McNugget]

No. I actually stated that the AOA is primarily useful due to the very reasonable loss of income insurance.

And I used the term freeloader, as quoted by someone else.

I don't expect you to understand.

Can you tell me more about NBD approaches? You make them sound so interesting.

Glad you found an airline that takes guys with psychiatric disorders. One with B-scale conditions, no less. Who? Oh yes, you won't say.

But, clearly it's awesome, thus negating the need to continually look over your (chipped) shoulder and loiter around here when you're point of view is neither wanted, valid nor relevant. Well done you.

[ChinaBeached]

I'll assume your typo was just that and not borne from ignorance. It's an "NDB" not "NBD". It's a navigation aid & one typically may conduct a circling approach from it. But you're not permitted to fly an aircraft at present, nor will you ever be permitted to fly a circling approach under CX's rules so it's just another skill you'll never possess. So don't stress. I (may I state "we" who unfortunately share the same skies as you & your super cool dude Facebook & playstation/flightsim cronies) would prefer if you were more proficient at TCAS, it's uses and operation.

A term used by someone else, yes. You took ownership of it, proudly and succinctly: freeloader.

Fella, we could swap personal jibes forever. You know what C-Scale is, what threats to the conditions of your colleagues it undeniably presents, as well to the wider pilot body. Me psychotic? The fact you continually deny it is psychotic in ignorance, arrogance and hypocritical at the very, very least. You speak out against the AOA not improving your package when due your own DIRECT and UNDENIABLE actions YOU willingly and proudly agreed and asked to lower them to such a disgusting extent!!??

So how about you please justify your words why, considering YOUR tenure in HK and CX thus far the AOA is "unfit for purpose" and that had they have not been as such you would never have been eligible or considered close to competent in experience or credentials for a job at CX.

If, as you say, the AOA truly represented the wishes of the membership then you would not have a job at CX. When considering this then please elaborate on your comments about the AOA: "They have in no way represented the wishes of the membership"

[McNugget]

I do apologise for my incorrect spelling. I was being sarcastic. I have flown many NDB approaches. It's a total non-event. I'm also permitted to fly, thanks.

In order to avoid jibes, 'fella', I'll just answer your one question. The rest seems a bit much for you.

This is a thread about a pay deal. Nothing more, nothing less.

In respect of said pay deal/negotiations, the HKAOA have not respected the wishes of the membership. This has been demonstrated on several occasions in the last 15 months.

Their purpose is to represent the interests of the membership. As such, they are currently unfit for purpose.

Is that clear enough? It's hard to judge how much to dumb it down with you.

PS. Who do you work for again?

[ChinaBeached]

You're not permitted to touch the controls of the aircraft by virtue of the rights & limitations of your HK CAD P2X rating. Why lie about the obvious?

OK, if the questions I posed are "a bit much" for me, then how about answering them for the wider group reading (and being amused) by these posts?

As you again believe, the AOA is unfit for purpose: the words of a self confessed freeloader. So, in light of this, is it not a fact that had the AOA of done what you wished it would, i.e. "respect the interests of the membership", then C-Scale would never have been able to occur and YOU would not be eligible to apply or interview for CX?

It's taken several posts to get this much from you so you're not dumbing it down for me. You're illustrating your own arrogance and ignorance in needing to be pressed to do so.

It's a thread about a pay deal: yes. But how hypocritical that you now demand what you directly and undeniably contributed toward: the severe and disgusting lowering of the remuneration for CX pilots. Now you want the AOA to fight for "more" when you asked so eagerly in applying and accepting C-Scale accepted FAR "less"??!!!

Again, I'd invite you to go back and read these more recent threads http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/fragrant-harbo...9-dear-so.html and here: http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/fragrant-harbo...d-nothing.html to judge how well respected you are. Not just those threads but a plethora of other threads and posts. That shows what the "interests" of the pilots feel and want.

If you truly want the AOA to represent the interests of the membership then you'd be out the door in a heartbeat.

As written before, MANY, MANY people at CX and elsewhere know who I am by name. To say where I work on a public forum like this is irrelevant, but it wouldn't take a genius to figure it out given the info I've repeated time and time again. Carriers offering the T&C's I'm on are obvious. So, to clarify no matter how many times you ask I won't divulge that information as such. You join the dots. It's the same as me demanding your full name on a public forum. Would you give that?

[McNugget]

I don't have a HKCAD P2X rating. Idiot.

I don't confess to freeloading. Your comprehension has failed you.

I don't demand more from the AOA. Again, your comprehension has failed you.

Regarding the 'dear SO' thread; I'm not an SO.

Regarding the RA thread; It is fictitious, and was a TA in RVSM. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good story.

As you don't answer any of my questions, I won't further answer any of yours.

Do yourself a favour, and go somewhere where people want your input, and as a bonus point, don't think you're an oxygen thief.

That, demonstrably, is not here.

[McNugget]

I find the only ones that do that are the Austranauts with a bit of 1900 time.

Classic.

[ChinaBeached]

Cowardice logic. Because I refuse to basically divulge my identity on a public forum you use that as an excuse to not be accountable for your statements?

I have every right to post here. You simply don't like it when someone like me tries to make you accountable for your words, opinions and actions. Pathetic really.

I take it you're a (J?)FO then. Congratulations. You're well on the way to spreading your undercutting-fellow-colleagues-cancer through the ranks.

And the RA incident? I was told by several Capts and FOs about it well before it hit the pprune forums. The iCadets of course will rally behind their own and deny, deny, deny. While the rest of those at CX and us who share the same skies also desperately want it to be untrue as well. Those Capts and FOs tell me it was factual. But in any event, the fact that it's spoken about with such venom yet again voices the severe dislike for what woeful standards (in every sense of the word) this iCadetship and C-Scale represent.

Some more of your words McNugget. I know, I know.... You won't want to be asked to be accountable for them either......
We all need to stick up for each other and understand the impact of what we're separately concerning ourselves with;
Did you stick up for your colleagues by accepting T&C's disgracefully below the then standard or did you just do whatever was best for "you" and to hell with the long term consequences?

I (an LEP) want the best possible housing outcome for expats. It puts upward pressure on our terms, so it does involve me.
And yet you applied for, asked for and defend your decision to accept a contract that undermines the entire housing scheme at CX??

The only complaint you'll hear resonating time and time again from us is that we will be unable to accommodate a family in HK when that time comes.
How dare you complain about receiving EXACTLY what you asked for!? You really are a piece of work.

What we must collectively ensure is that what we get offered to stem that flow minimises the downward pressure exerted on the expat package.
Minimises the downward pressure? YOU are the downward pressure!!!!! Your actions lead the way!

Consequently as a group, we're not short-sighted enough to just sell out our peers over a few measly dollars. It's in everyone's collective interests to look out for each other's benefits.
Sell out your peers? But you describe yourself as a FREELOADER. YOU sold out the pilot body in accepting a contract that undermined theirs. Your arrogance is only matched by your sheer audacity.

A Scale allowed B Scale to happen. B Scale allowed C Scale to happen. What's done is done. I believe CX has found the floor, and will be intent on bringing everyone down to it/in that direction.
Yes. The AOA who you describe as "unfit for purpose" allowed that. But had they have done as you wish you would not exist at CX. You refuse to grasp that let alone acknowledge it. Because of self described freeloaders like yourself CX management have a avenue to "bring everyone down to it/in that direction." Have a look in the mirror and hold yourself accountable. You really are completely conceited to believe otherwise.

ST: if some guy with more jet time than a B-Scale FO or Capt accepted C-Scale then that speaks more for his inability to get a job anywhere else and deciding to undercut the market and join as a C-Scale iCadet. More jet time "when he joined"? So?? Most pilots who joined CX as DESO's had zero "jet" time but 1000's of hours on singles & twin pistons, turboprop time, loads of PIC time, etc... Flying a "jet" is generally the privilege earned after gaining that experience. But if this cadet SO did, then he definitely deserves a reverse high five at the next beach volleyball match, or maybe even a "like" on your cadet C-Scale infamous Facebook page.

And despite your best wishes about my character I would never belittle anyone in public, let alone in a professional workplace like a dispatch office. But what I can tell you is that just about EVERY B-Scale CX pilot I know is sick to death of hearing you brats moan about the hardships of the C-Scale package, about how hard it is to get by, how you're all running to EK (with your wondrous P2X hours!).... Even your hero McNugget here has the arrogance to whine about being unable to afford a family "when the time comes" due the inadequacies of the contract he asked for and accepted. No long term thinking. Just get into a shiny jet, screw over whom ever he can, undercut the market to a disgraceful level, now moan about the AOA not doing more to improve what he has undeniably created. Then get on pprune and parade some form of Machiavelli-peacock feathers about "unity" and "improving pay" all the while being a willing part of the entire problem.

So if you could (which you can't) fathom the frustration at your own existence in CX and what it means to guys who actually earned the job that paid appropriately then you'd understand why their fuses are potentially so short.

[White None]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h54IUqUWPbI

[BlunderBus]

Actually A scalers were given a letter drastically reducing pay..30% leave..overtime pay..productivity etc and the demand was sign in 11 days or be terminated...courtesy of CEO KT. The legal advice at the time advised to sign and fight which we did and 49 guys got crucified..illegally..which we paid to support and some of us paid through the CPU to further support when MG through a revote sold them out and gave the company all the rostering concessions we now suffer under.
Just so you know what we 'ALLOWED' to happen.

[Steve the Pirate]

Kids this has been great fun but it's getting really tiresome now. ChinaBeached, if you know so much about CX then the quote that you yourself posted would give you a clue as to McNugget's position:

I (an LEP) want the best possible housing outcome for expats. It puts upward pressure on our terms, so it does involve me.

LEP means "Locally Employed Pilot", i.e. not an expatriate. The fact that LEPs are now in receipt of some degree of housing allowance happened for a variety of reasons but they were never likely, in all honesty, to receive the full expatriate allowance. If you work for a ME airline, I'd be curious to know if LEPs who work there receive a housing allowance or not - that's a genuine question by the way.

McNugget, there's many things that you can call CB but illiterate isn't one of them - obsessed, sanctimonious and smug maybe but not illiterate.

CB, hello again. Remember the advice I gave you on the Wannabe forum all those years ago? Clearly you haven't taken it but I honestly agree with McNugget - you should get some professional help to overcome your anger as I'd really not like to fly with you if you exhibit even a fraction the emotion that you pour forth on this forum in the flight deck. I actually mean that seriously, as one professional pilot to another. It's time to let this go...

STP

[ChinaBeached]

STP: check your PM's.