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Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Nov 2014, 23:48
Clearly the solution to children being murdered by policemen in playgrounds in the USA is:

- give every child a real gun

- teach them how to use it

- teach then to shoot anyone wearing a police uniform on sight, as a reasonable and proportionate proactive defensive measure.

Dushan
23rd Nov 2014, 23:51
Pure Darwin at work. Stupid kid pulls out a toy gun at a cop in a dimly lit surroundings. Gets shot. Well done officer!

Nothing to see here, move along.

Gertrude the Wombat
23rd Nov 2014, 23:54
pulls out a toy gun
Not the version we were told, we were told it was in his belt.

Oh, and I wonder what colour the child was? (I heard the story on the radio rather than the TV, colour wasn't mentioned.)

Capot
23rd Nov 2014, 23:56
If getting shot is the punishment in the USA for stupidity - as it should be, of course, don't think I'm against it, please - how do the USA's Police forces find recruits who haven't been plugged already?

And how come there are still some people alive in Louisiana?

Dushan
23rd Nov 2014, 23:57
Yes, goes for the toy gun in his belt. The color of the kid was stupid.

Seldomfitforpurpose
23rd Nov 2014, 23:58
Pure Darwin at work. Stupid kid pulls out a toy gun at a cop in a dimly lit surroundings. Gets shot. Well done officer!

Nothing to see here, move along.


No idea what the story is but if what is being implied is even remotely true the officer in question will probably never have an undisturbed nights sleep for the rest of his life.............

Dushan
24th Nov 2014, 00:06
From NBC News

Police said the officers were responding to a report of a person waving a gun around at a playground at the Cudell Recreation Center at around 3:30 p.m. Saturday. The boy was shot after he allegedly refused to put his hands up and reached in his waistband for what appeared to be a handgun, police said.

The handgun turned out to be an "airsoft" replica toy gun, which shoots pellets in a similar way that a BB gun does. Cleveland police said in a statement that an orange marking designed to make the toys distinguishable from real firearms had been removed*.






* Major stupid...

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Nov 2014, 00:23
Cleveland police said in a statement that an orange marking designed to make the toys distinguishable from real firearms had been removed*.



* Major stupid...


Imagine that, a society where a kids plastic toy gun has to have a high vis marker on it to ensure they are not shot dead by the police............


No idea of the 'facts' in this story but if the excuse is as Douchan suggests perhaps its time in the US to do a bit of inward contemplation........

Dushan
24th Nov 2014, 00:37
Looks like yours, in UK, also have an orange tip, which is surprising since knowing there are no real, legal, handguns in UK, one would know this is a replica AirSoft

http://images.hobbytron.com/HT-G25B-lg.jpg

UK Arms G25 1911 FPS-240 Spring Airsoft Pistol (http://www.hobbytron.com/UKArmsG251911FPS240SpringAirsoftPistol.html)

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Nov 2014, 00:45
So that tiny little bit of orange is why the kid got shot dead.............


From your pic the 'gun' in question looks no more threatening that a Nerf so perhaps they are the next thing to be treated with caution......

BOING
24th Nov 2014, 00:48
Stupid kids remove the orange tip to make the gun look more macho - it worked.

.

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Nov 2014, 00:52
Stupid kids remove the orange tip to make the gun look more macho - it worked.

.


Absolutely...........

Dushan
24th Nov 2014, 00:55
In your living room with your grandson, no big deal.

As a cop, you get a call "person weaving gun in Cudell park", you get there, see the suspect, at 50 feet, order "hands up" he refuses, reaches for the belt and this thing, sanas orange tip, you'd be remiss not to go three taps center of mass. Because an alternate scenario is you on a slab and the kid in juvie hall.

seacue
24th Nov 2014, 01:01
No idea of the 'facts' in this story but if the excuse is as Douchan suggests perhaps its time in the US to do a bit of inward contemplation........
Rather too late for that.

My childhood, many decades ago in the USA, was probably nearly unique. I was forbidden to have "toy" guns... being taught that to point a gun (even a toy gun) at someone meant that you intended to shoot them. My pacifist upbringing likely hampered me for life. I _did_ shoot a 0.22 rifle (under supervision) on the VERY short range in our basement.

My active-duty time in the USAF was as an electronic engineer in a lab developing air defense systems. Perhaps that was by chance, since I didn't indicate any preference for defensive systems.

My boss was one of "our" Germans in the first batch brought to the USA. He had found himself as a tank radio operator on the Russian front. He probably survived the war because highly-educated persons were called back to the German labs ... His final German project was communication between Germany and Japan by moon reflection. He said it would have been a practical failure since the Germans didn't have reliable high-power transmitters at the microwave frequency chosen.

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Nov 2014, 01:05
In your living room with your grandson, no big deal.

As a cop, you get a call "person weaving gun in Cudell park", you get there, see the suspect, at 50 feet, order "hands up" he refuses, reaches for the belt and this thing, sanas orange tip, you'd be remiss not to go three taps center of mass. Because an alternate scenario is you on a slab and the kid in juvie hall.

Absolutely, now ponder the 'how's' and 'whys' of that situation. The cop in question has just slotted a kid with a plastic toy because........he thought it might be real.........

Cops scared of 'kids' who might have real guns so therefore shoot first, not a great situation is it.......

galaxy flyer
24th Nov 2014, 01:47
"Not enough guns"? Glad I'm getting another tomorrow.

GF

BenThere
24th Nov 2014, 01:52
Clearly the solution to children being murdered by policemen in playgrounds in the USA is:

So are there any cases of policemen convicted of murdering children in playgrounds in the US. I'm not aware of any.

And could someone post a link to this story so I can study the angles?

Bronx
24th Nov 2014, 02:02
These links should lead you to it -

Saturday morning homicide in Cleveland brings 12-hour death toll to 7 (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/saturday_morning_homicide_in_c.html#incart_m-rpt-1)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/us/boy-12-dies-after-being-shot-by-cleveland-police-officer.html

galaxy flyer
24th Nov 2014, 02:04
What I find amusing is that people are calling the cops because kids are playing with toy guns. Come on, when I was a kid NOT having a toy gun was grounds for being called a "wuss" or whatever the term was. We got home, played war of cowboys and Indians with our toy guns until dark. What's with kids and coos nowadays? The cop was way over the top, the kid should have learned that guns don't get pointed at cops by the patents, the onlookers who called the cops should have shut their piehole.

GF

galaxy flyer
24th Nov 2014, 02:06
Bronx,

Nothing about cops convicted for murdering kids that I saw.

GF

SHornet
24th Nov 2014, 02:08
which is surprising since knowing there are no real, legal, handguns in UK.

Actually, there are. For target shooting and humane animal dispatch.

Target shooting handguns, if semi-automatic, can't be above .22 calibre and they need to have a barrel length of no less than 30cm with an overall length of 60cm. Revolvers up to .45 calibre are also permitted with the same size restrictions, this is to make it impossible to conceal the weapon. There are exceptions to this for the humane dispatch of animals, however a separate licence (and regulations) are required, you can NOT have them on a Section 1 Firearms Certificate.

Bronx
24th Nov 2014, 02:12
GF

Seemed like Ben wanted a link to the Cleveland story.
To study the angles. :rolleyes:


Welcome to the forum SHornet.
You took the bait there but you'll soon get used to Dushan's ways.

SHornet
24th Nov 2014, 02:48
Thanks for the welcome.

I don't believe the user was trolling or I took the bait, there are lots of people in the UK who believe handguns are banned outright, instead of restricted. It's only typically those who are involved in the shooting community or have an interest in firearms and firearms law, that know otherwise.

galaxy flyer
24th Nov 2014, 02:52
YGBSM, a 11.8" barrel and a 23.6" handgun? Who in hell would design one, let alone buy it. I can't think of any handgun that is that size.

GF

Fox3WheresMyBanana
24th Nov 2014, 02:59
So far in 2014, 42 US Law Enforcement have been killed by gunfire.
The list is here, together with descriptions of the situations.
Search for a Fallen Officer (http://www.odmp.org/search?cause=Gunfire&from=2014&to=2014)

Scanning it, I noted a number of situations which would not have appeared initially threatening; such as cutting one's lawn on a summer afternoon, seeing a car crash into a ditch nearby,and then being shot by one of the occupants whilst going to investigate. There were at least 3 deliberate ambushes. Sadly, it would appear that Law Enforcement Officers in the US cannot ever assume a situation is not potentially lethal.

Matari
24th Nov 2014, 03:12
Yet another gun thread started by a Brit. I wonder how this one will turn out? Seems a bit of a peculiar fetish ... you just can't stop thinking about them.

Caboclo
24th Nov 2014, 03:18
- give every child a real gun

- teach them how to use it

- teach then to shoot anyone wearing a police uniform on sight, as a reasonable and proportionate proactive defensive measure.


The problem is that many parents today don't teach their kids anything, least of all anything to do with morals or common sense. There was a time when every 12 year old in America did have a gun, and if they did anything stupid with it, they could expect a thrashing from the police and another from their parents.

galaxy flyer
24th Nov 2014, 03:24
matari,

The Brits are just returning the insults our supercilious President has thrown at them, so they can't help it.

BHO record of insults to Brits. (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/president-obamas-biggest-british-gaffes/article/2503321)

GF

John Hill
24th Nov 2014, 03:52
There was a time when every 12 year old in America did have a gun...
Things have moved on since then, now every American has a gun and acts like a 12 year old (with respect to guns).

FakePilot
24th Nov 2014, 04:08
Yeah because in Socialist Utopia if a brown person moved to pull a gun out the Bobbies would be forced to retreat.

nonsense
24th Nov 2014, 05:28
In order to find a solution, first you must accept that there is a problem.

sitigeltfel
24th Nov 2014, 05:45
A close call.......

"One of the subjects shouldered a rifle and pointed it in our direction," Heron said.
Heron's training kicked in. He raised his own weapon, ready to defend himself.
"I had pressure on the trigger," he said.
Heron said he was 60 yards away and the threat looked legitimate until he noticed one minor detail - a small orange strip on the barrel of the person's weapon.
"If there's a threat, we are trained to eliminate the threat. It's pure luck, I saw orange," he said.
Merriam officer narrowly avoids shooting kid, 15 - KCTV5 (http://www.kctv5.com/story/21760348/merriam-officer-narrowly-avoids-shooting-kid-15-playing-with-air-soft-gun)

West Coast
24th Nov 2014, 05:56
Gertie, back at your tricks again I see. You are following the euro template precisely. Look past issues in the UK and criticize abroad, well, in your case exclusively criticize the US.

No, it's not like the few armed Brit cops are shooting holes in folks is it?

Hell, they even have a catchy name for it...

Operation Kratos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Kratos)

Works well unless you're from South America. Heck, there's plenty other Brit cops shooting up the population as well. Yet, when you want a Brit cop with a gun around to stop a random killing of a soldier, there's none to be found.

TWT
24th Nov 2014, 06:10
Now, what happens when the bad guys put a small orange strip on the barrels

of their weapons,in the hope that a cop hesitates for a moment ?

West Coast
24th Nov 2014, 06:25
GF

Thanks for posting that, explains why some here are getting awfully uppity. The Maldives comment, hadn't heard that but given the protective nature of the media I'm not surprised. Now had dubya said it, folks in Pyongyang, the North Pole and and small island nations off the coast of continents would have heard it in real time.

Anilv
24th Nov 2014, 06:49
sorry but I'm missing something..

The orange mark on the tip tells you that the gun is a toy?

What's stopping me from painting the tip of my gun orange? or getting a bit of dayglo colored plastic and fixing it to the end my gun?

:ugh:

Anil

John Hill
24th Nov 2014, 06:59
The cops are painting orange muzzles on their guns to make them appear more 'neighbourhood friendly'!

Krystal n chips
24th Nov 2014, 07:07
" Yet, when you want a Brit cop with a gun around to stop a random killing of a soldier, there's none to be found

There's just one tiny flaw in your contention above....and strangely enough, it applies world wide....even in America !

To save you pondering, unless an armed police officer happens to be in the immediate vicinity of a crime being committed, there's actually nothing an armed, or unarmed, officer can do to prevent this crime happening.

Unless of course, you have some viable explanation otherwise.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 07:34
Two major problems led to this event:

That someone felt so threatened by a child with what was potentially a gun that they called the police, caveating the call with the suspicion that the gun was "probably fake".
That the policeman in question felt the threat was real enough to shoot a child, either not getting or not heeding the call from the reporter that the gun was probably fake.

Both speak to me of some major societal issues with trust and fear.

bcgallacher
24th Nov 2014, 08:06
West Coast - if you are going to contribute to this thread may I suggest you get factual information. The British police fired a total of 3 shots last year,killed nobody that I can remember - a far cry from your idiotic statement 'running around shooting up people' In contrast the U.S. Police shot and killed over 400 people. Being armed really protects the U.S. Policeman - only 30 were shot dead last year.Our unarmed police last had one of their number shot dead in 2012. Your society has deteriorated to the extent that a policeman has to assume that the gun a child is playing with is real -a sad indictment of the way your society works.

probes
24th Nov 2014, 08:08
weirdly enough I'm with the policeman this time.
Imagine that, a society where a kids plastic toy gun has to have a high vis marker on it to ensure they are not shot dead by the police
- if it had been a real one (yes, issues with trust and fear based on experience), what then? The police would have been accused of not shooting (and the witnesses of not calling). I'm sorry for the young person (don't know if 'kid' would apply for a 12-year old who decides to pull a toy gun for 'fun' threats, and it's not playing with their lot, plus the boy could have been quite tall) to die, but... he wanted to 'play shooting', so that's what happened.

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Nov 2014, 09:12
weirdly enough I'm with the policeman this time.


As am I but the poor guy is going to have to live with this for the rest of his days.

Interesting links on the BBC website article covering this story

BBC News - Target to customers: No guns in our stores please (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28132468)

BBC News - Starbucks asks customers not to bring guns into outlets (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24142085)

BBC News - Chipotle asks customers not to bring guns into restaurants (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27492193)

I know they are not 'new' news but do suggest a slightly different approach to that often suggested on here.

Ogre
24th Nov 2014, 09:21
Having been trained to carry firearms, although in a military capacity, I have to agree with the actions of the Polceman. In a scenario as described (reports of a person with a gun in a location, police arrive to see a figure make the motions of drawing a firearm, figure asked to put down/drop the weapon, figure fails to comply) all in a matter of seconds, then the policeman probably didn't even see the person holding the gun, just the gun itself.

The training would have kicked in, and the actions were probably automatic.

With so many investigations into incidents and accidents, in the cold light of day and with 20-20 hindsight, the actions of split seconds will never stand up to considered opinion taken over hours or days.

BabyBear
24th Nov 2014, 09:36
The issue is not about an individual cop, or an individual kid, it is about a dysfunctional society.

Those choosing to make excuses and dress it up to suit their own position can do so until the cows come home, it won't change the facts.

As someone said earlier...first you have to acknowledge there is a problem!

BB

Hempy
24th Nov 2014, 09:46
meh let them go

Takan Inchovit
24th Nov 2014, 10:00
Something tells me that 'kid' would have shot somebody by the time he was 16.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 10:10
Something tells me that 'kid' would have shot somebody by the time he was 16.What, exactly, is it that allows you to predict the future in such a manner?

Takan Inchovit
24th Nov 2014, 10:11
"Something," like I said!

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 10:12
What is that "something"?

Takan Inchovit
24th Nov 2014, 10:21
Lifes experiences. Why do you need to know?

onetrack
24th Nov 2014, 10:27
The problem with the U.S. is simply too many firearms in the hands of people who have earned no right to have one - as it should be.
Interpreting a nearly 300 yr old law originally designed to allow local militia to be armed, to read that every single person born in the USA has an inherent right to own virtually any high-powered firearm he/she chooses, is a recipe for constant accidental (and intentional) firearms deaths.

The U.S. cops live in permanent, itchy-trigger-finger fear, that every single person has a potent firearm and is determined to kill them. So the result is totally distrustful, shoot-first, ask-questions later, police forces.
This has resulted in multiple hundreds of unnecessary deaths just over the last few decades alone, and it will result in many more of the same, until some action is taken to reduce the mind-boggling totally unnecessary amount of weaponry in American citizens hands - such as the bloke bragging recently about his collection of 113 firearms.
I won't be holding my breath, America will never change.

I think the saddest story I have ever read of an "accidental" U.S. police force shooting involved a Vietnam Veteran who had only recently returned home.
He was stopped whilst driving his car, in a traffic stop, when the local police were looking for an armed felon.
All the police were armed to the teeth, on high alert, and had itchy trigger fingers.
One police officer accidentally discharged his weapon, and another officer thought the veteran had fired on them. This officer fired on the veteran, killing him instantly.

Now, this guy had just endured a tour of a country where every second person was armed to the teeth and determined to kill Americans at every opportunity.
Yet he survived that killing field, only to be shot dead by a trigger-happy fellow American, when he thought he was home safe. Says it all really.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 10:30
Lifes experiences. Why do you need to know?Because I think that "something" is nonsense. Any kid who is playing with a toy gun now is likely to "have shot somebody by the time he was 16"?

brickhistory
24th Nov 2014, 10:39
I having a bit of a cunundrum regarding guns.


Well, one in particular.


I'm having a little trouble picking up the front sight of my newly acquired S&W Model 36 (no dash, this one dates from about 1960).

I'm going to have a hi-viz insert placed on that front sight, but should I go with the traditional-ish orange/red, or, having done a little research, go with a white one since that is the last color to fade under low-light conditions?

Torque Tonight
24th Nov 2014, 11:22
Yep, I'm with the police on this one. Without close examination, the 'gun' was indistinguishable from a real handgun. It's not the picture of a plastic toy shown on page 1 of this thread, it's this:

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4678599.ece/alternates/s615/Airsoft-plastic-BB-gun.jpg

So police tell a kid to put his hands up and instead he goes to draw that from his belt.

The kid was fatally stupid, the cops did the only thing they could do, but no doubt the locals will be out on the streets rioting and looting.

Mr Chips
24th Nov 2014, 11:36
Why did the OP find it necessary to start yet another anti US gun thread?

Strikes me that this specific incident could easily have happened in England. Person reports suspect with gun, armed response unit arrive on scene, suspect goes for gun, gets shot.

Now, before the anti gun nuts start bleating on, do a quick google to ensure that no unarmed person has ever been shot by a UK police officer (including table leg in your search might help)

More relevant question would be "why did this child appear to go for the gun when challenged by a police officer?"

ExXB
24th Nov 2014, 11:49
In the US, if it looks like a gun, it probably is. Shoot to kill.

in the rest of the world, if it looks like a gun, take care it might be one.

If I may, this thread is pointless. It has already resulted in name calling. Please lock it or merge it with the other one.

bcgallacher
24th Nov 2014, 11:57
Mr Chips - He was a kid with a toy gun - he knew it was a toy and being 12 years old would not imagine he would be shot for having it. What sort of reasoning powers do you expect a 12 year old to have? The incident in itself is an example of the results of a gun culture that makes things like this a fairly regular occurrence. 400 + shot dead by American police last year - a shameful statistic redolent of some ill governed Central American Republic.

onetrack
24th Nov 2014, 11:57
The bottom line it was a 12 yr old child, FFS!! Every 12 yr old child still has a limited concept of correct behaviour under thousands of circumstances where adults know what is the correct behaviour.

Of course the kid did something stupid!! All 12 yr olds do stupid things every 5 mins of the day!! That's why you are always pulling them into line and telling them how to behave!!

How many U.S. police officers have been shot dead by a 12 yr old skillfully wielding a potent firearm, and with a formed and calculated intent to take down a police officer? Well?
I reckon I'm hearing an awkward silence from the gun lobby.

eticket
24th Nov 2014, 11:58
A little thread drift:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKHeXC7L85s

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Nov 2014, 12:03
As am I but the poor guy is going to have to live with this for the rest of his days.
Unless


(a) he, like some of his colleagues further south, believe that shooting street kids is simply controlling vermin and thus to be praised


(b) the whole episode was to get a few weeks off work on full pay until the enquiry found his actions were fully justified; after all, he knew perfectly well that no cop would ever actually get convicted for shooting a non-white kid, so he could do what he liked.

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Nov 2014, 12:05
All 12 yr olds do stupid things every 5 mins of the day!! That's why you are always pulling them into line and telling them how to behave!!
We did tell ours never to take toy guns outside the house in case they got shot by police. Not because it would ever happen in the UK, but because they might one day be somewhere more dangerous.


They just couldn't believe that there really were places in the world where that was a risk to be taken seriously.

MagnusP
24th Nov 2014, 12:11
So how did he get access to a realistic replica of a pistol? Who removed the tag? Why did his parents not teach him respect for authority? Just asking.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
24th Nov 2014, 12:15
I think it is another tragic indictment of a culture that is a thin veneer of authority away from anarchy. Where police have had to develop a shoot first, ask questions later behaviour just to survive. Where being 12 and playing with a toy gets you killed, because in the USA a 12 year old might very well have a real gun.
And posters on here say the kid got what he deserved? Jesus.

Mr Chips
24th Nov 2014, 12:19
Gertrude - any evidence at all for your offensive generalisations?

Why did you find it necessary to start another US bashing thread?

MagnusP
24th Nov 2014, 12:20
Try searching airgun killings if you think it was simply a toy.

Torque Tonight
24th Nov 2014, 12:38
It would be quite revealing to see, out of those who with great confidence, certainty and hindsight mention that it was not a real firearm, how many would actually remain so comfortable if this individual pointed that 'toy' right into their faces. I suspect 99% would not stay so cool and would probably be screaming for a policeman to come and save them. Much easier to be judgemental from behind a computer screen.

The cops did not 'shoot first, ask questions later': they asked him to raise his hands, he drew the gun, then they shot him.

Keef
24th Nov 2014, 12:43
This topic is the ultimate hamsterwheel, as has been seen in many places.

In the USA, almost everyone (crooks apart) has the right to own an arsenal and to cart it around with them. There was a valid reason for this when the rule was introduced centuries ago. The valid reason now is that the NRA says it must be so and anyone who disagrees will be either shot or voted out of office. It would be a very brave elected politician who would say in public "How to we get out of this mess?"

So whatever anyone anywhere else says, US citizens will continue to shoot each other in scary numbers and will defend to the hilt their right to do so. If you challenge a gun-owner, he'll go and buy some more guns to prove his point. It's (partly, at least) a testosterone thing.

The rest of the civilised world looks on in disbelief or shock, and keeps returning to the opening question, but the NRA brainwashing is incurable. Just accept it as a sad fact, and move on. Nobody's going to change view, and a lot of electrons are going to get very tired.

probes
24th Nov 2014, 12:48
They just couldn't believe that there really were places in the world where that was a risk to be taken seriously.
They do now, don't they.
Very far from thinking 'got what deserved' - still I wouldn't blame the policeman.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 13:00
I'm going to add my unsolicited 2 cents here.

Although the black kid in question was undoubtedly suffering from a case of utter stupidity and doubly so as he had removed the orange-colored tap on the muzzle of the air gun which shows that it's fake, the shooting of this kid is yet another example of how out of control too many police departments are in this country. Way out of control.

There was a situation here in NYC just last week where two NYC cops killed an unarmed man who had done nothing at all wrong. The unarmed citizen was in a stairwell ascending to his apartment with his girlfriend when two cops who were descending "heard footsteps" in the dark stairwell and instead of calling out for identification, or whatever, simply opened fire on the guy, killing him.

The lack of self-control and self-discipline exhibited by too many cops is a serious concern. As is the militarization of many police forces in this country. The police are supposed to "serve and protect" as many cop cars have prominently displayed on their care. Not shoot upon sight.

it's gotta stop. Otherwise many more cops will be killed in the line of duty. I

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 13:08
GF wrote:

, a 11.8" barrel and a 23.6" handgun? Who in hell would design one, let alone buy it. I can't think of any handgun that is that size.

Damned fly boy. :} Well, not exactly to those specifications but my .50 cal Desert Eagle has a barrel length of 10" and an overall length of 15. Close, but no cigar. :E

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Nov 2014, 13:13
They do now, don't they.
They're now beyond the age of playing with toy guns.


One of them has a real machete - he walked around Jamaica carrying it, everybody does, it's just a farming tool. But he doesn't now walk around Manchester with his machete in his belt.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 13:17
I disagree with some statements along the lines of "he got what he deserved."
I say bullshit. yes, the kid was wrong in many ways. But the cop in no way, shape or form had to shoot to kill. He could have shot to incapacitate: in the leg, arm, whatever. This cop's actions, like too many other cops, were over the top, uncalled for and should result in his immediate dismissal. If for no other reason than displaying a lack of firing discipline.

Lonewolf_50
24th Nov 2014, 13:21
Lifes experiences. Why do you need to know?

You sir, are an idiot! I'd say he understands things quite a bit better than you do. The comments made further up about some serious sickness within our societal framework, in particular in our urban centers, is IMO on the right track.

The relationship between the police and people in our urban centers is significantly different than elsewhere. It's why cops wear body armor.

rg:
1. No. You aim center of mass when you are dealing with someone armed. But did the officer have to shoot, or was there a chance to control the situation before gunfire began. That's a question IA at his police department needs to answer.

2. Yes. Your point on officers shooting with greater frequency than general police discipline calls for is taken and agreed. Case in point: my brother in law, been a cop for about 20 years, has yet to shoot anyone.

@ onetrack:
12 year olds are capable of any number of violent and sadistic acts. You may wish to return to your own nation's history, and two kids of about that age a decade and more ago who took a young child out and killed him. The age of this foolish person isn't relevant. Kids vary in size anyway, and the officer had not gotten to the point of inquiry about 'how old are you son?"

Your "child" emphasis neglects reality. By 12, puberty has usually hit, growth spurts happen, and of course hormones are starting to get into kids heads. No surprise 12 and 13 year olds do a lot of stupid things. (One reason I have deep respect for teachers of the kids in the 11-14 age group, they are dealing with people who are undergoing serious life changes).

Sallyann1234
24th Nov 2014, 13:25
As so often on these boards, Keef has summed up the situation very succinctly. It is the hamster wheel par excellence.

The gun culture is so heavily engrained in US society that it is not amenable to change. Legislators fear the loss of votes if they bring in any sort of curb, and the gun lobby's answer to too many guns is even more guns.

So we will watch sadly from the sideline as the killings continue.

Mechta
24th Nov 2014, 13:26
So am I right in thinking that any deaf child in the USA who has a toy gun stuffed in his belt is very likely to get shot for not responding correctly to a police officer's command?

Lonewolf_50
24th Nov 2014, 13:44
No.
If it stays stuffed in the belt, odds are no officer will feel threatened.

Then again, being deaf does not prevent a kid from being an idiot, so a damned foolish move could be made. You can't tell if someone is deaf from a distance, and until you try to communicate and it fails ... and you take some time to figure out what is going on.

Depending on the situation, that may not be time you have, but see my point to RG up there as well.

goudie
24th Nov 2014, 13:48
I once visited a gun-shop in California with my s-i-l (he owns a 9mm pistol and shotgun) to buy ammunition. Whilst in the shop I found it rather uncomfotable, witnessing the enthusiastic selling and buying of some very powerful looking weapons. It was all so matter of fact as the salesman extolled the virtues of various pieces. To my British view of guns in the public domain, it was distinctly alien and I was glad when we left...to go to the range for some target practice, which I soon found boring and not particularly enjoyable. However, to my s-i-l it was a good way to spend the afternoon, (he's an excellent marksman) as did all the other gun enthusiasts who were there. It seems with guns you either love 'em or hate 'em.

probes
24th Nov 2014, 13:54
Mechta, WHY would deaf children (in the USA) carry toy guns?
Unless you're just trolling.

GtW, actually I meant those who are of that age today.

Also, there's a lot of background to everything. Like rgb said: "There was a situation here in NYC just last week where two NYC cops killed an unarmed man who had done nothing at all wrong." Well, this guy had a gun replica and probably the police did not mean to kill him?
It's easy to be the Professor Hindsight, but if you have seconds to decide...

Mr Henderson said that Tamir was a "respectful young man" who "minded his elders", and he that it was a mystery to him why son, reported to be tall for his age, allegedly did not follow police orders.

Sorry for the guy who got a final lesson of making fun with guns.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 14:01
WHY would deaf children (in the USA) carry toy guns?Why would they not?

Shooting a child for doing something stupid is like shooting a dog for licking it's butt. Doing stupid things is one of the defining characteristics of being a child. They do stupid things all the time and (hopefully) learn from them.

brickhistory
24th Nov 2014, 14:01
Right, a white insert it is, then.

Or is that considered racial?

But, as the front sight is for all intents and purposes black, being politically correct does seem to defeat the purpose.



Any thoughts about the endless 9mm vs. .45 acp debate?

On one hand you have more capacity per given volume vs. a bigger hole.

Not to mention the difference in price per round.

Funny, usually the Euro-version of something is much more expensive...

probes
24th Nov 2014, 14:18
Shooting a child for doing something stupid is like shooting a dog for licking it's butt
Absolutely.
Are you saying the policeman shot a child for doing something stupid? I understood he shot a person (somehow I still can't believe he - was it a he? - meant to kill the person?) for having a gun that looked a gun enough to give reason for making a call (should this person be responsible, too?)?

Lonewolf_50
24th Nov 2014, 14:29
Robert Heinlein: (yes, there is a bit of hyperbole here, but the point isn't lost on any pilot) This had to do with a macro view of the universe, evolution, and stupidity, but can be applied to other undertakings as well ...

Stupidity cannot be cured. Stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death. There is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.

probes, if you head over to the thread in Jet Blast that covers a lot of famous last words, you can get the idea that sometimes doing something stupid will get you killed. Any of us who has flown and aircraft knows this.

In a lot of environments, brandishing a gun, or what looks like a gun, when other armed persons are about CAN GET YOU KILLED. It's a different kind of stupid, perhaps, but it's still stupid.

Lord Spandex Masher
24th Nov 2014, 14:31
It's only stupid if you know you shouldn't be doing it. Can you say for certain this 12 year old knew he shouldn't be doing what he did?

Lonewolf_50
24th Nov 2014, 14:33
LSM, you are yet again wrong.
Doing something stupid has no such precondition. Sometimes, you do something stupid due to ignorance, other times even if you know it is wrong and do it anyway. Either way, it is stupid.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 14:35
LSM:

If you read my comments above I, for one, think the cops involved in this shooting went way, way overboard here. As is becoming all too common in this country.

However, the 12 year old did indeed do one thing Very Stupid: removing the orange-colored thingie from the muzzle of the air gun was stupid in the extreme. Had is remained on the air gun the outcome may have been quite different. Again, not condoning the cops here but they may have given it a second thought had they seen it was a toy pistol.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 14:36
LW50 wrote

Doing something stupid has no such precondition. Sometimes, you do something stupid due to ignorance, other times even if you know it is wrong and do it anyway. Either way, it is stupid.

No one deserves to be shot and killed due to stupidity. If that were the case, there'd be a lot more dead people.

brickhistory
24th Nov 2014, 14:40
Which speaks volumes about the judgment and responsible behavior of the other hundreds of thousands of cops and who knows how many responsible gun owners...

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 14:43
Absolutely.
Are you saying the policeman shot a child for doing something stupid? I understood he shot a person (somehow I still can't believe he - was it a he? - meant to kill the person?) for having a gun that looked a gun enough to give reason for making a call (should this person be responsible, too?)?While I don't know exactly what information reached the officer in question, the gun was reported as "probably fake":
According to the recording of a 911 call, a witness at the Cudell Recreation Center park told the police dispatcher that he saw somebody with a pistol and he was pointing it at people.

The caller told the dispatcher that the gun was "probably fake." But he said that it was scaring people.

Officers responded and advised the boy to raise his hands, according to a police statement. Cleveland boy with pellet gun dies after police shoot him | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/11/24/us-usa-ohio-shooting-idUKKCN0J70WI20141124)

probes
24th Nov 2014, 14:50
"looked [like] a gun" should be about the same as 'probably fake'? It was bad enough to make the person pick a phone?

But that wasn't my point anyway, as you probably noticed.
It's about the 'word magic' - to make things appear one's way. A 12-y-o can be a kid, of course - but then I doubt a kid would alarm anyone enough to make a call. 'doing something stupid' definitely does not equal to 'threatening with a fake gun for fun' (presumably, so it's "my" word magic from this side, I admit).

MagnusP
24th Nov 2014, 14:53
Not a toy pistol. It was an airgun. A weapon, designed by airsoft to be non-lethal, but looking like a working handgun. Someone provided the deceased with the gun. Someone removed the "flag". Someone failed to teach the deceased that it is sensible to accede to a lawful command especially when waving about a weapon which the police have no way of identifying either as a non-lethal air weapon or as a lethal handgun.

Someone other than the police officer carries the responsibility of setting this chain of events in train.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 15:10
MagnusP:

I agree with your statements on responsibility for what happened. However, the two cops in question share equally in that responsibility.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 15:13
probes"looked [like] a gun" should be about the same as 'probably fake'? It was bad enough to make the person pick a phone?It was the fact that it was scaring other people which made the caller ring the police.'doing something stupid' definitely does not equal to 'threatening with a fake gun for fun'Really? I'd say it did in this case, but only in hindsight due to the (now all-too-apparent) risks. In most cases, certainly in the UK, I wouldn't say it was stupid at all: merely fun.

MagnusPSomeone other than the police officer carries the responsibility of setting this chain of events in train.Nobody other than the police officer carries responsibility for pulling the trigger. I imagine he is feeling pretty bad about it now and I pity him for being in a situation where he felt that was the right course of action at the time.

Dushan
24th Nov 2014, 15:26
... reduce the mind-boggling totally unnecessary amount of weaponry in American citizens hands - such as the bloke bragging recently about his collection of 113 firearms.
I won't be holding my breath, America will never change.



Who are you, or anyone else, to say what is necessary and what is not? Necessity has nothing to do with it, anyway. It is simply the ability to have without having to show cause.

113, is nice, but nothing extraordinary. I know people with a lot more, and working on getting even more. Are you going to suggest that a stamp collector should be limited to 20, or 30, or 113?

Dushan
24th Nov 2014, 15:29
I having a bit of a cunundrum regarding guns.


Well, one in particular.


I'm having a little trouble picking up the front sight of my newly acquired S&W Model 36 (no dash, this one dates from about 1960).

I'm going to have a hi-viz insert placed on that front sight, but should I go with the traditional-ish orange/red, or, having done a little research, go with a white one since that is the last color to fade under low-light conditions?

Suggest getting two Model 36s, one with orange one with white. Then after you use them both for a while determine which is best. Put the other one in the "Guns for Sale" section of the local paper.

probes
24th Nov 2014, 15:33
well, yeah, PTT.
We agree that it's too bad the boy got killed.
I don't agree guns (toy, fake, airguns or handguns) are 'merely fun', and on that we'll probably never agree.
(On second thoughts - maybe, in your own group of pals, with the rules agreed upon.)

That's life? - the life some have to pay with for their fun.

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Nov 2014, 15:42
MagnusP:

I agree with your statements on responsibility for what happened. However, the two cops in question share equally in that responsibility.


Absolutely, there is a way 'bigger picture' to this one which until the investigation is completed we can only speculate on but for me why was a 12 year old in a public park with that sort of weapon and could the police have dealt with the situation better.


Whatever the outcome of the investigation a family have lost a son and man is going to have to live with killing a child for the rest of his days.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 16:05
probesOn second thoughts - maybe, in your own group of pals, with the rules agreed upon.What's to say this wasn't the case with the Cleveland boy? The cop involved did not know these hypothetical rules, though, and would likely have taken the same course of action had he come across the situation.
The problem is not the gun, it is the society which feels it needs them and that they must use them at the first sign of threat and accepts these tragedies with nothing more than a "nothing to see here, move along".

Dushan Are you going to suggest that a stamp collector should be limited to 20, or 30, or 113?How deadly are the stamps?

Dushan
24th Nov 2014, 16:18
DushanHow deadly are the stamps?

Who knows? Some kid starts to lick them, they get stuck to his tongue, he takes more, the next thing he is choking on 173 commemorative stamps from some third world country and he dies.

Of course kids should be taught to not touch something not intended for them. My stamps, coins, tools, watches, cameras, and guns have not hurt anyone. Deadly or not they only become functional if someone uses them that way.

radeng
24th Nov 2014, 16:48
Back in May, I was talking with a detective in the US - he was from Madison, Wisconsin. He said that what really worried him about his fellow policemen having guns was what appalling marksmanship they demonstrated, and he was of the opinion that they were, generally speaking, more dangerous than many criminals!

He may have been a bit biased by having spent several years as a firearms instructor in the Marine Corps.....But the same appears to apply over here, with many ex-mil people appalled by the way police handle (or mis-handle) guns.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 16:54
Whenthe two officers arrived, the boy did not point the weapon at them or otherwise threaten them, Deputy Chief Ed Tomba of the Cleveland Division of Police told reporters early Sunday.

Says enough in and of itself.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 16:58
radeng wrote:

with many ex-mil people appalled by the way police handle (or mis-handle) guns.

At an indoor firing range which I frequent, I often observe cops squeezing off a few rounds. I am equally appalled by their seeming mishandling of their firearm, by their inaccuracy and by their obvious lack of motivation in learning how to fire more proficiently. Had I fired like they do back in my Army days I would have failed basic marksmanship and been shown the front door.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 17:04
http://thedailybanter.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/ferguson_police_2.jpg

National Guard? Army Reserve? Regular Army?

Nope, just your average every-day police officer in rural America. In this case, Ferguson, MO. But this type of "uniform" is becoming quite common in far too many police forces these days.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 17:08
Who knows?I can find no data on it. This suggests the number is sufficiently small to pass by unnoticed, as opposed to the reams written on other, likely more common, methods of death. If someone has some data on it then I'd be happy to reconsider.
Of course kids should be taught to not touch something not intended for them. My stamps, coins, tools, watches, cameras, and guns have not hurt anyone. Deadly or not they only become functional if someone uses them that way.Well quite. There is a different risk involved with each, though. The risks with a beachball are likely less than the risks with a steak-knife, for example. A simple risk assessment of any situation looks not only at how likely it is that something will go wrong but also at the consequences if it does.

obgraham
24th Nov 2014, 17:29
This sick obsession you all have with American gun culture is incredible. We go through this same spiel over and over. Nothing new here. Ever.

Why are you not similarly obsessed with suicide bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan, which kill upwards of 50 people at a go, nearly every day?

It has nothing at all to do with guns. It has to do with your own insecurity in the world order.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 17:57
obgrahamWhy are you not similarly obsessed with suicide bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan, which kill upwards of 50 people at a go, nearly every day?There were more deaths due to murder or non-negligent manslaughter in the US than there were worldwide deaths from Islamic terrorism in both 2011 and 2012 (original post (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/549176-understanding-muslims-16.html#post8702681) includes links to sources). 67.7% of those 14661 murders/non-negligent manslaughters in the US in 2011 involved firearms (source (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime) - FBI), making for 9925 firearm murders in the US in 2011. There were 9084 murders from Islamic terrorism worldwide for the same period, which is almost 10% less. By your own logic this begs the question as to why you aren't at least as concerned with firearms deaths in your own country as you (not necessarily you personally, but the US in general) are with Islamic terrorists.

If you can't see the difference between all of us seeing problems with Iraq and us disagreeing as to whether a problem with gun violence even exists in the US then you need to look up the meaning of "special pleading".

brickhistory
24th Nov 2014, 18:00
And you need to understand, "We simply don't care about your opinion."

You are powerless to do anything except whine while ignoring the many, many cultural, violent, and often times sectarian issues within your own, i.e., UK, society.

But threads on those run their course very quickly because no one cares.

Every one cares about the U.S.

As that's been the case for the last nearly 100 years, we're used to it.

Be a good lap dog now and run along. Perhaps Vlad or Xi wants your opinion...



edited to add: I opted for the white insert in the S&W Model 36. Also dropped off a Model 3913NL for a complete overhaul, to include all the springs. My mechanical ability runs short of successfully manipulating the internal springs past the main recoil one. Should be good for another 4-5000 rounds. With no permission needed.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 18:12
:rolleyes:

It's fairly clear that you do care otherwise you'd not waste your time taking part in these discussions even if it is only to tell us how "little" you care. It clearly hurts you that people are critical of your nation and culture. Another nice attempt at closing down a conversation you find painful, though. I suggest you "run along" and don't read it any more.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 18:19
In or about 2006, there were about 60 million (actually closer to 58M, but we'll use the rounded-up number to be kind to hopolophobes) people in the UK as a whole, including Scotland.
In England and Wales alone discounting Scotland there were over 163 thousand knife crimes.
By the end of 2006, there were more than 300 million people in the US as a whole.
In the US as a whole, there were fewer than 400 thousand gun crimes.
In the UK, based on these numbers, there was one knife crime commited for every 374 people (rounded down).
In the US, based on these numbers, there was one gun crime committed for every 750 people less than half a gun crime per 374 people (about 0.4987 gun crimes per 374 people, actually).
That means that, based on these statistics, you are more than twice as likely to be a victim of knife crime in the UK as you are to be a victim of gun crime in the US.

So, the question is: why hasn't the UK banned knives?

brickhistory
24th Nov 2014, 18:19
Clever reverse thinking. Brilliant.

Sadly, the weather is bad and my range is closed on Mondays so I read on. Slowly, and sounding out each syllable, but getting there eventually.

I do not care about your opinion or others like yours. I read them to see if there is anything useful in them that might bolster the anti-gun crowd within the U.S. in order to have rational, logical, factual counters at the ready. The ones that could pose a threat to my rights as an American citizen, not the foreign 'nose pressed against the glass' brigade.

But like many here, facts don't matter. Only the "saving one more child" mantra.

But no counter to the identification that UK-based threads on various deplorable to me issues die quickly and the fascination with the U.S. resonates?

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 18:34
rgbrock1 - Comparing apples with oranges? By the way, it's always good to acknowledge someone who you copy and pasted your information from: Chad Perrin: SOB Statistics 101: US Gun Crime vs. UK Knife Crime (http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=1323)
Really you ought to have copied his conclusion on what those copy/pasted statistics mean when you tried to make your case:
even the statistical comparisons I present here are not sufficient to prove a case.

Shame you even copy/paste his "hopolophobe" typo ;)

brickhistoryI read them to see if there is anything useful in them that might bolster the anti-gun crowd within the U.S. in order to have rational, logical, factual counters at the ready.And yet you only ever come back with...
http://cdn.business2community.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Listen_body-copy-310x234.png

no counter to the identification that UK-based threads on various deplorable to me issues die quickly and the fascination with the U.S. resonates?I answered that already when obgraham said the same thing about Iraq:
If you can't see the difference between all of us seeing problems with Iraq and us disagreeing as to whether a problem with gun violence even exists in the US then you need to look up the meaning of "special pleading".We know there are problems in the UK. We acknowledge them and want to do something about them. There's not much more to discuss other than what that should be. You don't even acknowledge that there is a problem in the US, and therein lies the fascination.

BabyBear
24th Nov 2014, 18:39
So, the question is: why hasn't the UK banned knives?

Ah, you've sort of shot yourself in the foot there rg, :p:p the laws (https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife)
governing the possession and carrying of knifes are in fact very stringent and certainly not comparable to the US gun laws.

BB

obgraham
24th Nov 2014, 18:48
Another nice attempt at closing down a conversation you find painful, though. The term "conversation" nowadays generally signifies "you need to think my way".

Let us know when a true "conversation" erupts on a gun thread.

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 18:50
obgraham - maybe to you. I'm simply asking questions such as why aren't you at least as concerned with firearms deaths in your own country as you (not necessarily you personally, but the US in general) are with Islamic terrorists?
I guess I could add "why don't you want us to talk about it?" and "do you even see there is a problem?"

West Coast
24th Nov 2014, 18:51
but inter-gang warfare is something of a self correcting problem in my opinion, so I'm not really too concerned by it.

The same here, but some of your countrymen seem quite concerned about it. They're not as concerned about your gangs killing your folks as our gangs killing theirs oddly enough. Easier to look elsewhere I suppose.

OFSO
24th Nov 2014, 19:38
Perception: driving back home on Saturday morning at around 1 a.m., me and three friends, we encountered the usual paramilitary police patrol just over the border from France into Spain.

The patrol were armed with automatic rifles (not sure of the exact nomenclature) and a few other weapons.

Waved down, I slowed and stopped, the police looked in the car (new-ish white Mondeo), saw me and my friend in the front seats, obviously assessed us as two elderly white chaps, probably from a northern country, dressed well - and waved us straight through.

That's an "instant judgement" made in a few seconds.

Now assume the car had been a black BMW driven/occupied by two youths from the deep south, black glass, loud music playing, maybe pulled up sharply, cheeky grin from the driver.

And of course there would have been a similar "instant judgement" made but most likely with a different outcome: certainly a POV check.

Police make these judgements every day - it's forced on them. And in the USA making the wrong call leads so often to injury or death. So don't blame the cop in this instance.

The other side of the matter is that the USA is a violent society, and if you want any chance of surviving you play by the rules of the enforcement agencies. Twelve years old or twenty, those rules apply. If the child had removed the "toy marker" from his gun and didn't have the sense NOT to draw it on a law officer, that was the fault of the parents in failing to educate the child.

Declaration: born British, since the age of 24 I have lived in countries where police routinely carry semi-automatic and automatic weapons in the street and on patrol. And I figured out from the first moment that when asked for ID, you don't make a dive for an inside pocket with one hand, but you say "my ID is in this pocket - may I get it out now ?" And you don't carry something that might even conceivably look like a weapon and try to get it out without saying what you are going to do. And yes I lived in Germany during the Baader-Meinhof outrages and worked in Italy when the Red Brigade was active and police were VERY jumpy and the finger was never far from the trigger of the MP7 or G36 or anything else made by Heckler and Koch.

That 12 year old kid made a mistake. Very sad indeed, but Heinlein was right.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 19:44
OFSO:

But the German Polizei do not look like the Massachusetts state police do they?

http://www.hopnews.com/Tpr-Paul-Barry-web.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/72bc4c2d250fe0a0b41ea5eae2dffbee/tumblr_mw878lvJEj1sqx1wto1_1280.jpg

Makes you just wanna yell out "Sieg heil" don't it?!!!

Nani
24th Nov 2014, 19:53
what really worried him about his fellow policemen having guns was what appalling marksmanship they demonstrated

There is much truth in that detective's worry.

For many years I was a NRA certified instructor for our county,sheriff elected and/or their chosen deputies had to comply with many hours required by state and local AG at our shooting range.
While they may have had enough experience with firearms,mainly hunting,their attitudes lacked the seriousness for someone who had access to other weapons without scopes,etc. and the fact the threat they may face one day is another human being where judgement comes into the picture.

I don't know if this attitude was due to thinking it will never happened to them and yes,we do live in an area where crime is generally very low or just petty theft until migrants move in for fruit picking.
3-4 months of theft,beatings,rapes, knifing/shooting one another becomes the norm.

Instructors used to recommend for repeat classes along with suggesting taser guns may just be safer until they have gained experience with other weapons.

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Nov 2014, 19:56
laws (https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife) governing the possession and carrying of knifes
Like I said, my lad knows not to walk down Curry Mile with his machete in his belt.

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Nov 2014, 20:00
Waved down, I slowed and stopped, the police looked in the car (new-ish white Mondeo), saw me and my friend in the front seats, obviously assessed us as two elderly white chaps, probably from a northern country, dressed well - and waved us straight through.

That's an "instant judgement" made in a few seconds.
Had the same in Jamaica. Waved down by more seriously looking guns than I remember seeing anywhere else, wound down window, just waved past. We think they were after someone in particular and a white couple in a rental car didn't quite fit the bill.

(We were, we think, actually illegal, in that we didn't have any ID, driving licences etc on us.)

Lonewolf_50
24th Nov 2014, 20:01
obgraham - maybe to you. I'm simply asking questions such as why aren't you at least as concerned with firearms deaths in your own country as you
Personal attack and assumption noted.
PTT, cheap shots like this don't make for a conversation.

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Nov 2014, 20:07
I do not care about your opinion or others like yours.



Yeah you do, I have been on Prune for many a year now and any and every thread that even hints at an anti US bias has you arriving promptly and reacting in the same manner as you are doing here.


It hurts the bejazus out of you that folk from afar look upon your great nation as they do but having nothing to bring to the conversation in the way of counter argument you are forced to resort to '[email protected] off, it has nothing to do with you'


Joining the conversation is not compulsory you know :ok:

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 20:09
Lonewolf_50 - oh come on. You even ended the quote just before the bit where I was VERY CLEAR that it wasn't personal:
(not necessarily you personally, but the US in general)

West Coast
24th Nov 2014, 20:11
Yet when I look at your country with the same critical eye, none of you Brits want to join in. Curious.

brickhistory
24th Nov 2014, 20:13
That clever Mr. Smiley continues to weave his analytical webs.

I am mildly surprised to see him revealing tradecraft, but it is a different world nowadays...

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 20:16
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2011/1/13/1294942947181/Alec-Guinness-as-George-S-007.jpg

Lonewolf_50
24th Nov 2014, 20:25
I was VERY CLEAR that it wasn't personal: Sorry, your insincerity is leaking all over the web page.
But let's pretend you weren't.

You were still making stuff up, again.

Whatever issues there are with violence and killing in this country have BFA to do with the variety of American concerns (and multiple PoV) to do with ISIS.
Not the same issue, nor the same category.
One is domestic and social policy, the other mostly foreign policy with little to no overlap, although there is some argument to be had that a failure in policy over there means more trouble over here. <== That point will be argued until folks are blue in the face with no result and no agreement, in the short term. And that's just on this side of the pond. ;)

In trying to compare concerns on separate topics, you offer nothing constructive.

PTT that isn't a conversation: it's garbage.

Lord Spandex Masher
24th Nov 2014, 20:29
LSM, you are yet again wrong.
Doing something stupid has no such precondition. Sometimes, you do something stupid due to ignorance, other times even if you know it is wrong and do it anyway. Either way, it is stupid.

Interesting to note that you think it's not stupid to do something stupid if you know it's stupid.

Also ignorance and wrong aren't stupid.

West Coast
24th Nov 2014, 20:42
Could you decode that please.

Dushan
24th Nov 2014, 20:44
Errr...it has. And introduced increasingly stiffer penalties for anyone caught carrying one, let alone actually committing a crime with one.

Funny old thing, but the UK also banned handguns after some high profile incidents in the 80s and 90s. Since then, firearms homicides have been incredibly rare. There is an issue with black gangs, especially in London, carrying and using handguns, but inter-gang warfare is something of a self correcting problem in my opinion, so I'm not really too concerned by it.

So how's the knife banning thing working out for you, in terms of decreasing the crime committed with them?

It seems to me that several posters, here, and in the past have said something very similar to the bolded part of your post, only it went something like this:

There is an issue with black/latino gangs, especially in Chicago/Detroit/LA inner cities, carrying and using handguns, but inter-gang warfare is something of a self correcting problem in my opinion, so I'm not really too concerned by it.

Yet guns are blamed for these deaths in US (the ever quoted 30k number) and everyone around the world is concerned in their opinion.

rgbrock1
24th Nov 2014, 20:44
LSM wrote:

Interesting to note that you think it's not stupid to do something stupid if you know it's stupid.

http://newvaluestreams.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/exploding-brain.jpg

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 20:58
Lonewolf_50Sorry, your insincerity is leaking all over the web page. Don't talk bull. I was EXTREMELY clear.
You were still making stuff up, again.Really? Where? If you're going to call me a liar then at least have the decency to present your evidence.
Whatever issues there are with violence and killing in this country have BFA to do with the variety of American concerns (and multiple PoV) to do with ISIS. I wasn't the one who brought up the middle east. obgraham was in post #108 (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/551772-not-enough-guns-6.html#post8755816):
Why are you not similarly obsessed with suicide bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan, which kill upwards of 50 people at a go, nearly every day?
My answer to that was two-fold:
First, the killings by the entirety of worldwide Islamic terrorism is a comparable number to the gun murders in the US in a single year, so by his logic you (again, generic) should be as "obsessed" with guns in your own country as with Islamic terrorism.
Second, there is a difference of perspective: we can all agree that there is a problem with Iraq etc, but we cannot agree that there is a problem with gun deaths in the US.

As it happens I agree with your contention: they are different issues. My comment, though, was entirely to do with the fact that obgraham brought it up at all, and the context bears that out. If he wants to compare these things then we can do so, useless as it is.

West Coast - quite happy to join in if necessary and in the appropriate thread. Not much of a discussion if everyone agrees, though :ok:

Lord Spandex MasherInteresting to note that you think it's not stupid to do something stupid if you know it's stupid. He didn't say that: he said there was no precondition. "Stupid" as used in this context is an external standard to which an action is being held. It is a stupid action whether you know it is stupid or not, but there may be some mitigation of culpability if you don't know it is stupid.

obgraham
24th Nov 2014, 21:02
Perhaps PTT, I've been too obtuse. I'll be more direct:
*We have a problem in the USA with a significant portion of the population that prefers to be violent rather than productive.
*We have a problem in the USA with the media and entertainment industries glorifying destructive rather than constructive activities.
*We have a problem in the USA with relationships between our police and some of the populations they are supposed to "protect and serve", despite the fact that it is a tough and dangerous job.
*We have a problem in the USA with breakdown of family structure, lack of role-modeling, particularly of boys and young men.

I could go on. We have a lot of problems. Many of us believe the government has been a major cause of our problems instead of helping solve them.

All you lot think of is "why don't you get rid of your guns". And you consider that a "conversation".

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Nov 2014, 21:07
Perhaps PTT, I've been too obtuse. I'll be more direct:
*We have a problem in the UK with a significant portion of the population that prefers to be violent rather than productive.
*We have a problem in the UK with the media and entertainment industries glorifying destructive rather than constructive activities.
*We have a problem in the UK with relationships between our police and some of the populations they are supposed to "protect and serve", despite the fact that it is a tough and dangerous job.
*We have a problem in the UK with breakdown of family structure, lack of role-modeling, particularly of boys and young men.

I could go on. We have a lot of problems. Many of us believe the government has been a major cause of our problems instead of helping solve them.

All you lot think of is "we don't think our guns are a part of the problem". And you consider that a "conversation".


It reads almost as well that way round don't you think?

OFSO
24th Nov 2014, 21:09
But the German Polizei do not look like the Massachusetts state police do they?

Holy Gotham City.......I am surprised. (No actually, Mr Webster, I am amazed). They really do look....er....slightly right wing, don't they.

One time when I was stopped on the autobahn south of Heidelberg, I had a semi-automatic weapon pointed at the ground a few feet in front of me (but very much "at" my direction) and was told to show some ID. What was really worrying (and I mean I was sh*t scared at the time) was that the young polizei holding the weapon was actually shaking in fear. If you are looking down the muzzle, this is not good.

Incidently my gentile lady wife wishes to comment on the present discussion as follows: "if you are stupid enough pull a gun out, whether a real one or a replica, when a policeman tells you not to, you must expect to get shot. What's more to say ?"

obgraham
24th Nov 2014, 21:16
It reads almost as well that way round don't you think? The difference, SFFP, is that I'm not trying to tell you in UK how to solve your problems.
(Although, as a British subject/citizen/whathaveyou, I do in fact have that right.)

PTT
24th Nov 2014, 21:18
obgrahamAll you lot think of is "why don't you get rid of your guns". And you consider that a "conversation".I've not said that, and it is not my stance at all. Maybe you should try arguing with what I am saying rather than what you want me to be saying?

As it happens, the problems you list are also problems in the UK.

Seldomfitforpurpose
24th Nov 2014, 21:19
The difference, OBgraham, is that I'm not trying to tell you in USA how to solve your problems.



That's not really possible as apparently there is no problem...........

Lonewolf_50
24th Nov 2014, 21:29
Interesting to note that you think it's not stupid to do something stupid if you know it's stupid.
I can be charitable to the young'n and go with "foolish" rather than "stupid" but the outcome is the same: he ends up doing something stupid, regardless of how self aware or well taught he was.

For you, sir, there is no such excuse.

SFFP: if a problem ...
the problem begins with the Indian, not the arrow
a problem not in isolation by itself
one of many problems
and
Not yours to solve.

radeng
24th Nov 2014, 21:35
I have made this comment before and I don't apologise for repeating it....A friend of mine (now sadly deceased from cancer) was a very senior policeman in Norfolk. He told me after the Dunblane shooting that tighter gun control laws were, in his opinion a waste of time, because in seven years, with over 250,000 weapons legally registered in the county, they never had a crime committed with one of them, and it was cheaper to do a proper check before issuing a licence...

If you tighten up the laws about who can have a gun - no people with criminal convictions or mental health history - you can save all the money of stopping it and prevent piss*ing off people just to satisfy those who like knee jerk reactions. Just how many homicides in the US are committed with LEGALLY held weapons?

I would like to see one change in the US laws - when a criminal is shot while engaged in a criminal act, the state should pay for the bullets/cartridges, as, for example, the 19 year old Oklahoma widow who was talking to the 911 operator when two criminals were trying to break in to steal any of her dead husbands remaining drugs. Despite warning them, when one forced his way in to the room, she shot him. I believe the cost of the cartridge should have been given to her by the state.....plus a bonus for saving them the cost of a prison sentence - and quite likely, a homicide investigation after they raped and murdered her.

But then, I'm a huggy fluffy sandal wearing liberal....

brickhistory
24th Nov 2014, 21:46
my gentile lady wife wishes to comment on the present discussion as follows: "if you are stupid enough pull a gun out, whether a real one or a replica, when a policeman tells you not to, you must expect to get shot. What's more to say ?"


Waiter, a bottle of your best to the OFSO table, my treat...

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Nov 2014, 22:18
Just how many homicides in the US are committed with LEGALLY held weapons?
Almost all of them, as has been explained before, just the once or twice.

They were almost all manufactured legally.

They were almost all sold legally the first time.

The trouble is that guns that start out legal end up illegal.

Sometimes at the point where the trigger is pulled whilst the gun is pointing at a black child, sometimes at some earlier point - it doesn't really matter, it doesn't really make any difference, the child is still dead whilst you squabble about piddling little irrelevant details.

Lord Spandex Masher
24th Nov 2014, 22:20
For you, sir, there is no such excuse.


Don't need one, I haven't been shot by 5-0, ergo, I am not stupid. ;)

Gertrude the Wombat
24th Nov 2014, 22:20
"if you are stupid enough pull a gun out, whether a real one or a replica, when a policeman tells you not to, you must expect to get shot. What's more to say ?"
I think the bit missing - the "what's more to say" - is:
", unless you are living in a civilised part of the world."

Dushan
24th Nov 2014, 22:33
Quote:
", unless you are living in a civilised part of the world."



Can you name one country* in which the exact same result would have not happened under the exact same circumstances.










* Backward countries where cops are unarmed do not count. There the cop would have gotten shot.

Lord Spandex Masher
24th Nov 2014, 23:13
With what?

Pappa Smurf
25th Nov 2014, 00:16
Look on the bright side ,it could have been a homicidal dwarf or a future mass murderer.
I think the whole gun debate reflects to the point that everyone could have a gun,so don't trust a sole.

West Coast
25th Nov 2014, 00:39
with what?

With guns. People do get shot with handguns in countries that have largely outlawed them. You disagree?

galaxy flyer
25th Nov 2014, 00:46
Almost all of them, as has been explained before, just the once or twice.

They were almost all manufactured legally.

They were almost all sold legally the first time.

The trouble is that guns that start out legal end up illegal.

Gertrude,

You understand very, VERY little about the US gun business, hence cannot comment with authority. I know of loads and, I mean shedloads, of guns that began before or, without, ANY legal status. How 'bout one made from "pocket parts" that left the factory, how 'bout guns made from parts that obtained separately. There is a shop near me that will build one a complete 1911-pattern to your design. Look up "Remsport"

For a large portion, likely a majority, of US guns calling them "legal" or "illegal" makes as much sense as calling a screwdriver "legal" or "illegal". They just are.

GF

rh200
25th Nov 2014, 01:32
Not one will ever be shot

How about a correction, yes I known its a technicality.

It is extremely unlikely one will ever be shot

TWT
25th Nov 2014, 01:36
'How things are' in any country is determined by events over many years.

I never expect attitudes,laws or food to be the same in any foreign country as they are in my own.

The last thing I do is to try and tell the locals that the way 'things are' in their country is wrong,even if that's what I think.Why ? Because I don't live there and so,have no idea how the locals need to behave to get by.

Yes,we can have opinions and there will be some very polarised ones on issues such as this,but perhaps we can try and just accept that there will be very different points of view,and leave it at that.

* It won't happen of course,because most people believe their point of view is the only,and the correct one ;)

Dushan
25th Nov 2014, 01:38
Playing with guns is one thing, I do it all the time:E.

However if faced by a real cop, and told to raise your hands you instead reach for your waist and pull out a realistic replica the cop would be very foolish if he didn't shoot. No matter what everyone thinks his job is, he knows that his job one is to go home at night.

Loose rivets
25th Nov 2014, 01:39
This is a subject close to my heart. There are three main reasons for that. However, for the moment, I'll just say that I simply don't understand why a lovely little kid like that didn't have the savvy to drop the toy. I would have done, and that's decades before the slew of cops and robbers films started invading our homes - God knows how many times a week.

Just why didn't he jump to the order? Grief, we had schoolmasters who made us quake in our boots, and they didn't need guns to achieve that trembling state. So, is it possible this kid waved it - even pulling it from his belt after the call from the cop? Personally, I have a lot of trouble with that.

galaxy flyer
25th Nov 2014, 01:56
loose rivets,

Were it only so anymore. Kids now as frequently trade in drugs as play cowboys. Parents and teachers quake at the sight of little Johnny with a cellphone calling Mom and Dad who will quickly bring the wrath of God down on song teacher with the temerity to say Johnny isn't the angel they think he is. Sad, really.

GF

John Hill
25th Nov 2014, 03:46
... no doubt somehow caused by Obama.:bored:

A woman appears to have accidentally fatally shot herself in the head with a gun bought to prepare for possible Ferguson-related unrest,


http://wgntv.com/2014/11/24/woman-saying-were-ready-for-ferguson-accidentally-shoots-self-in-head-dies/

Flash2001
25th Nov 2014, 03:46
It happened a few years ago during a Daytona bike week in the time that Florida permitted unconcealed carry. A biker with a shoulder holster and a strong anti police bias was stopped for a traffic violation. He wanted to record the interaction and reached for the mini recorder he carried near his gun. The police shot him fatally. With a gun comes a certain amount of responsibility.

After an excellent landing etc...

rh200
25th Nov 2014, 03:59
no doubt somehow caused by Obama

Its called Darwinism John.

con-pilot
25th Nov 2014, 04:00
A woman appears to have accidentally fatally shot herself in the head with a gun bought to prepare for possible Ferguson-related unrest,

Another Darwin award winning candidate. If she had a knife instead of a gun, she would have stabbed herself to death with it.

There is no accounting for terminal stupidity.

BenThere
25th Nov 2014, 04:04
I think the whole gun debate reflects to the point that everyone could have a gun,so don't trust a sole.

Never, ever trust a sole! Don't take my word for it, ask any cod.

con-pilot
25th Nov 2014, 04:12
Never, ever trust a sole!

I trusted a sole once, but the blasted thing got off the hook and swam away.

CISTRS
25th Nov 2014, 04:14
aaahh...sole

obgraham
25th Nov 2014, 05:29
One thing about America, you're free to be a complete moron, even if you kill yourself in the process.

Freedom which our betters elsewhere would love to take from us.

Seldomfitforpurpose
25th Nov 2014, 08:20
One thing about America, you're free to be a complete moron, even if you kill lots of others and then yourself in the process.

Freedom which our betters elsewhere would love to take from us.

Trouble is it often reads as I have ammended which is the dilemma under discussion.......

Hempy
25th Nov 2014, 08:59
http://www.childrensdefense.org/child-research-data-publications/data/state-data-repository/protect-children-not-guns-key-facts-2013.pdf

Since 1963, three times more children and teens died from guns on American soil than U.S. soldiers killed in action in wars abroad.
166,500 children and teens died from guns on American soil between 1963 and 2010, while 52,183 U.S. soldiers were killed in action in the Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq wars combined during that same period.
On average 3,470 children and teens were killed by guns every year from 1963 to 2010, or 174 classrooms of 20 children every year.

Lord Spandex Masher
25th Nov 2014, 10:09
With guns. People do get shot with handguns in countries that have largely outlawed them. You disagree?

It is not, as Dushan would have us believe, inevitable.

OFSO
25th Nov 2014, 13:11
Anyone over the other side of the Atlantic care to answer this question ? It seems a lot of shooting by the police is the result of a civilian not obeying orders to "stand still", or "lie on the ground", or "don't put your hand in your pocket" or "keep your hands where I can see them" or behaving in a cheeky and offensive manner.

I won't comment on other countries but here in Spain the police expect to be obeyed and are obeyed. And if we add the Guardia Civil into the equation, ALWAYS obeyed. I have found them to be courteous, polite and stern/strict in my dealings with them, but they have a certain reputation for violence and for not forgetting perceived insults. My reacation in dealing with the Guardia is to say "yes sir, no sir,".

So why do so many Americans get shot because they don't understand the simple rule: do what the policeman says ? And lets face it, in the USA, if the policemen is white and you are black, surely the implications are understood ?


A rare but interesting incident in our little town of Roses yesterday, reported to me by an eyewitness. A woman came out of the market carrying shopping, stepped into the street carelessly, was hit by a car and knocked down.

The driver didn't stop.

The Policia Locale (a.k.a. the Municipales) have their main station round the corner, someone called, they were straight into their cars, a VERY short chase and the perp in his car was rammed and stopped. Surrounded by a dozen police with drawn guns pointed at him he refused to get out; police were beating on roof with clubs, finally got him out, thrown to the ground face first, where his nose was broken, and he was "subdued" before being thrown into a Police car and driven off.

It is entirely possible he was a foreigner which would account for much of this incident.

OK, so this is a once-in-every-ten years incident (or more - I can't remember the like) but it shows why people here obey the police.

rgbrock1
25th Nov 2014, 13:17
OFSO:

Here in this country most people do obey the commands of a policeman, or policewoman. Sometimes with an air of unwillingness, depending on why the command is being issued, but such interactions usually result in compliance.

However there are certain, shall we say, demographics in this country who view the pooo-lice as adversaries and will never comply with a direct order or command. They see it as an "us vs. them" kind of thing. With the inevitable results.

BOING
25th Nov 2014, 16:42
The illegal possession or use of a firearm is a serious offense in the US. Many people who carry firearms illegally are on probation or have a record of previous offenses so they are going to receive a more severe punishment the next time they end up in court. This encourages the attitude that it is better to fight your way out of a situation rather than face another arrest.

Be ready to shoot your adversary if he twitches the wrong way - you bet.

The outcome of a confrontation with the police is all in your attitude. Be stupid and bad things happen.

For example, if you are carrying a weapon when stopped by police there is a way to behave. You do not say "I have a gun". You say " I have a concealed weapons permit and I am carrying a pistol in a holster on my right hip. What would you like me to do officer?". Oftentimes if your attitude is correct this will turn the situation into a chat about favourite firearms.

Too many young kids are encouraged by their peers to mouth off at a police officer. The refusal to follow a reasonable request is going to make any move you make suspect and possibly remove another proto-convict from society.


.

bcgallacher
25th Nov 2014, 16:51
I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that it has become a capital offence to be rude to a policeman in the USA. If you start delegating punishment to the police instead of the courts you are on the slippery slope. Soon they may start shooting white people then where would you be?

PTT
25th Nov 2014, 17:01
http://media.komonews.com/images/070102_stormtroopers.jpg
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--tJrlImT1--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_320/18s161vthwncbjpg.jpg
Only one of the above is a real police force...

In Peru.

rgbrock1
25th Nov 2014, 17:06
Soon they may start shooting white people then where would you be?

Soon? Plenty of white people get shot by the police for many reasons. However, white people don't play the victim/race card when they do.

Boudreaux Bob
25th Nov 2014, 17:33
Here we go again....the Loony Left unhinged over the Rule of Law and not blind submission to their silly assed notions of social justice.:ugh:

We have a 12 Year old Black Kid shot dead while brandishing a Toy Pistol and disobeying the commands of Police Officers to drop the weapon.

Mind you the Toy had been altered by someone to remove the Red Identifying device it was made with that would have allowed the Officers to know it was a Toy....but then what does facts have to do with this?

That the Officers were not informed by Dispatch it had been reported as being suspected to be a Toy by the Complainant was also left out of the Media Reports.

All the Kid had to do was politely respond to the Officer and he would be home getting his Ass whacked by his Father for misbehaving.

Oh...yes....perhaps knowing the status of the Family in the Black Community that would probably not have happened either.

I suppose as we have not heard much about the shooting of the Twelve Year old....we will find that it was not a White Police Officer who shot him or something like that.

The Twelve Year old being shot is far more disturbing to me than this Brown guy getting whacked. Brown plainly caused his own demise through determined effort.

It sounds like the Twelve Year old may have made some very tragic mistakes in judgement which is far different than being physically aggressive, a drug user, and Robber.

The Safety Warning device, the Red bit built onto the Toy Pistol, had been removed with the intent to make the Toy look like the real thing. Which proves even law required safety features are not the answer.

Properly responding to the Police is always the right answer.

PTT
25th Nov 2014, 17:44
That the Officers were not informed by Dispatch it had been reported as being suspected to be a Toy by the Complainant was also left out of the Media Reports.Genuine question: if it's not been reported then how do you know? Will the dispatcher be disciplined in some manner for missing out this rather important information?
All the Kid had to do was politely respond to the officerAnother genuine question: do we know the kid heard the officer? I know he reached for the gun in his belt, but was he, for example, looking at the officer? How do we know he heard?
Properly responding to the Police is always the right answer.
authoritarian (-thr-tr-n, -thr-, -thr-, -thr-)
adj.
1. Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom: an authoritarian regime.
2. Of, relating to, or expecting unquestioning obedience. See Synonyms at dictatorial.

perthsaint
25th Nov 2014, 18:37
Do we know that the tag on the toy was deliberately removed?

probes
25th Nov 2014, 19:58
it was NOT a TOY.

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4678599.ece/alternates/s615/Airsoft-plastic-BB-gun.jpg

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/551772-not-enough-guns-3.html#post8755366

rgbrock1
25th Nov 2014, 20:05
Do we know that the tag on the toy was deliberately removed?

As opposed to? (It isn't a tag by the way. it's a part of the toy itself.)

http://www.airsoftgi.com/images/airsoft-cyma-k6-a.jpg

See the orange part? It's not screwed in but is part of the plastic barrel itself. It cannot be removed but by a conscious effort to do so.

perthsaint
25th Nov 2014, 20:06
As opposed to becoming detached by accident.

rgbrock1
25th Nov 2014, 20:09
Highly unlikely. See photo below. An accident could remove part of the orange plastic thingy but I can't see how such an accident would remove all of it. Plus, the plastic is a hard plastic not susceptible to breakage under normal use.

Seldomfitforpurpose
25th Nov 2014, 20:15
Forget the orange bit and concentrate on one of the most important factors in the whole sad and sorry affair, what and why was a 12 year old in a public place with this kind of toy/weapon in the first place?

perthsaint
25th Nov 2014, 20:16
It's protruding. Protruding things have a habit of breaking off, especially during the rough and tumble of children's play.

con-pilot
25th Nov 2014, 20:17
Highly unlikely. See photo below. An accident could remove part of the orange plastic thingy but I can't see how such an accident would remove all of it. Plus, the plastic is a hard plastic not susceptible to breakage under normal use.

The orange part could have been painted over as well.

obgraham
25th Nov 2014, 20:35
Forget the orange bit and concentrate on one of the most important factors in the whole sad and sorry affair, what and why was a 12 year old in a public place with this kind of toy/weapon in the first place?Bingo.

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

probes
25th Nov 2014, 21:14
It's protruding. Protruding things have a habit of breaking off, especially during the rough and tumble of children's play.
so, what's your point, perthsaint? Cute little kids were playing the rough and tumble children's plays and a Big Bad Cop came and shot one of them?

You know, seriously. :ugh:

perthsaint
25th Nov 2014, 21:50
You have a vivid imagination.

PTT
25th Nov 2014, 22:04
Forget the orange bit and concentrate on one of the most important factors in the whole sad and sorry affair, what and why was a 12 year old in a public place with this kind of toy/weapon in the first place?Another important factor is that it is a society where the assumption is that it is real and a threat rather than a toy.

Dushan
25th Nov 2014, 22:05
As opposed to becoming detached by accident.


No, the entire 5" barrel is orange. It is hard plastic and not easily breakable. Even if a piece did chip off, or was cut, the remaining part inside the slide would still show orange. Most likely the barrel was removed and painted black to make the gun more real and scary.

Seldomfitforpurpose
25th Nov 2014, 22:31
Another important factor is that it is a society where the assumption is that it is real and a threat rather than a toy.


Whilst I could not agree more I suspect that if a 12 year old was out and about in a UK park brandishing such a weapon/toy then an armed response would also have taken place with potentially the same outcome.


The only difference I can imagine is that because as societies we are poles apart gun wise here in the UK the assumption would be that a 12 year kid would 'probably' have a toy and the police would react accordingly.

brickhistory
25th Nov 2014, 22:46
So, I went with the white insert for the Model 36 and a spring and trigger job on the Model 3913NL.

Dushan
25th Nov 2014, 22:48
So, I went with the white insert for the Model 36 and a spring and trigger job on the Model 3913NL.

That sounds a bit racist, brick.

brickhistory
25th Nov 2014, 22:52
Well, Mr. Smiley has already done the analysis and declared me so...




Of clinical/professional interest was Officer Wilson's testimony that he shot several volleys at the 6'5", 280-ish lb now deceased Mr. Brown and noticed he was hit at least twice before Brown attempted his final, fatal charge and stopped a round in his head.

Getting hit at least twice with a .40 round and the attacker kept coming?

I think I just settled my 9mm vs. .45acp debate.

Size matters.

Literally.

Shack37
25th Nov 2014, 23:32
Quote:
That the Officers were not informed by Dispatch it had been reported as being suspected to be a Toy by the Complainant was also left out of the Media Reports.



Genuine question: if it's not been reported then how do you know? Will the
dispatcher be disciplined in some manner for missing out this rather mportant information?


It was reported, I read it this morning. Unfortunately I cant find it to post a link.

rh200
25th Nov 2014, 23:49
authoritarian (-thr-tr-n, -thr-, -thr-, -thr-)
adj.1. Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom: an authoritarian regime.
2. Of, relating to, or expecting unquestioning obedience. See Synonyms at dictatorial.

Obviously a need for a philosophical discussion on authoritarian.

We had a situation decades ago where police where respected. They intervened, they where talked to politely and obeyed. They showed up at a brawl at a pub, just one or two of them, and the brawl generally stopped.

Now they show there, bottles, rocks, bricks, even by children thrown at them. Now something here doesn't seem right, I am pretty sure we weren't an authoritarian regime back then.

Basically people have become smart arses who don't give a sh!t, This has been caused by the left and their continued assault on our basic value system, and trying to micromanage our society.

Most of the crap we have today is just as a result basic bad behavior and lack of common decency. Further compounded by weak arse leaders stoking the fire with the help of so called intellectual leftists.

Boudreaux Bob
26th Nov 2014, 00:05
Proper response to a Police Officer's commands.....especially if he has a firearm pointing in your direction.....seems very easy answer to me. Show him your empty hands and do exactly what he tells you to do, and do it in slow motion so there is no confusion as to what you are doing.

If he violates your Rights or harms you illegally...sue his Ass, sue the Police Department, and sue his Supervisor and the Chief of Police.

That is known in these parts as being just plain commonsense!:p

obgraham
26th Nov 2014, 00:10
Trouble is Boudreaux, that's an example of lightskinned thinking.

Apparently not required in many parts here.

rh200
26th Nov 2014, 00:32
Proper response to a Police Officer's commands.....especially if he has a firearm pointing in your direction.....seems very easy answer to me. Show him your empty hands and do exactly what he tells you to do, and do it in slow motion so there is no confusion as to what you are doing.

That may be proper, but the smart thing would would be.

"release your bowls and bladder, start bawling and quivering uncontrollably. Though not very manly, let there be no mistake in the fact that you are no threat:p

If he violates your Rights or harms you illegally...sue his Ass, sue the Police Department, and sue his Supervisor and the Chief of Police.

Thats the smart thing to do, the other way is potential Darwinism in action.

Mr Chips
26th Nov 2014, 00:52
Whilst I could not agree more I suspect that if a 12 year old was out and about in a UK park brandishing such a weapon/toy then an armed response would also have taken place with potentially the same outcome.

SFFP looks like we finally agree on a gun thread! I noted this earlier though...

The US part of this is largely irrelevant. Armed police challenged a suspect apparently armed with a gun, and fired due to his reaction...could happen in any country. I did note in one report that the boys own father said he is big for his age, so I doubt that the police necessarily realised it was a child...

TWT
26th Nov 2014, 01:56
'Suicide by Cop' ?

You get taken out quickly and there always remains some doubt,however little, as to how events unfolded.Better for your family than finding you hanging in the garage.They then have somewhere to direct their anger/grief.

PTT
26th Nov 2014, 08:45
Seldomfitforpurpose - I very much doubt the first response would have been armed in the UK or that the outcome would have been the same. The chances of it being a real gun in the UK are much lower than in the US and the response would have considered that. A policeman who arrived on scene would have made an assessment first and then called for the ARV, I suspect. Of course that risks the policeman being shot himself, but the risk of that is far, far lower in the UK than in the US. That's not a criticism of the response or system in this case in the US: where the weapon is likely to be real then you have to take that into account.

rh200We had a situation decades ago where police where respected.We did indeed, and in return we were respected by them. They would simply turn up for things to settle down rather than turning up in force and riot gear in order to impose that same sense of order. Respect is a two-way street and is earned rather than demanded.
Basically people have become smart arses who don't give a sh!t, This has been caused by the left and their continued assault on our basic value system, and trying to micromanage our society. Sorry, but that is bull. They don't trust the police because the police are not trustworthy.

Boudreaux BobProper response to a Police Officer's commands.....especially if he has a firearm pointing in your direction.....The relevant quote is at 1m24s:
EWd_zplFsOY&feature=youtu.be&t=1m24s
That lack of distinction is at least part of the problem.

rh200
26th Nov 2014, 09:31
We did indeed, and in return we were respected by them. They would simply turn up for things to settle down rather than turning up in force and riot gear in order to impose that same sense of order. Respect is a two-way street and is earned rather than demanded.

Sorry PTT, but you of all people should have a basic understanding of phase shifts and cause and effect. (lead and lags) The police are purely responding, they are a reflection of society.

They over here have the same rights to go home to their familys from their work place as every one else. The way they handle things is a result of events, whether you like it or not. Usually at the behest of unions.

Police trust, not sure what third world county you live in, but I would trust 99% of them, here and most western countrys, almost without question.

PTT
26th Nov 2014, 09:44
The police are purely responding, they are a reflection of society. They are a reflection of the parts of society they routinely deal with. When that reflection comes into contact with the rest of us "normal" people then our perception of them changes considerably. Cause and effect, like you said.

Gertrude the Wombat
26th Nov 2014, 12:46
Proper response to a Police Officer's commands.....especially if he has a firearm pointing in your direction.....seems very easy answer to me.
Cops can get round that one though, if they go round two at a time.


Spot a black child.


One of them shouts "freeze".


The other shouts "hands up".


Whichever one wasn't obeyed gets to kill the child.

brickhistory
26th Nov 2014, 13:59
Wow, that takes some dark, twisted mental gymnastics to get there.

Well done.

Good thing you don't have guns.

chuks
26th Nov 2014, 14:07
Gertrude, I have a suggestion for you, next time you visit the States. First time? Whatever.

Go to Miami, Florida and visit "Liberty City" (between NW 54th and NW 79th Streets, and NW 27th Avenue and I-95).

Perhaps just stopping at a traffic light in that area will do, when a breeze block closely followed by one or two locals may enter the side window of your rented car. If not, park the car and take a stroll most any time of the day. If that still doesn't do the trick, visit most any night. If you are then still possessed by your drippy liberal hallucinations, white cops hunting black children and all, make that Saturday night.

Once you have done this, please get back to us with a report of how all of that went, okay?

Your vision of white cops hunting black children ... you see this as some sort of American reality? Well, please take a trip to Liberty City to see a different American reality, one you seem to have missed.

Boudreaux Bob
26th Nov 2014, 15:41
Chucks Dear Boy,

Gertrude does not live in Realville.....just some Fantasy Island where Life is lived in the Abstract.

Along with that fine neighborhood in Miami.....perhaps he might put on some Black Face Make Up, don an Afro Wig, lower his trousers to half way down his backside and visit the South Side of Chicago for a Weekend and see how he gets along.

Chicago is a much more dangerous place for young Black Americans than is Afghanistan.

rgbrock1
26th Nov 2014, 15:51
Try Hartford, CT on for size. Go to the infamous "North end". I'll bet dollars to donuts that if you do so you will not remain unscathed.

Hartford is known locally as "Connecticut's Rising Star". (hardy-hardy-har-har)

To those who know Hartford for what it really is: "Connecticut's Anus"

John Hill
26th Nov 2014, 17:09
So thats two, no three areas to avoid are there any more?

obgraham
26th Nov 2014, 17:19
So thats two, no three areas to avoid are there any more?Nope. Other than those three, wander where you wish, John.

rgbrock1
26th Nov 2014, 17:29
Yeah John, why don't you come on over and take a walk in downtown Camden, New Jersey*. Should be enlightening for you. :ok:

*might want to take the 1st Infantry Division with you though.

Boudreaux Bob
26th Nov 2014, 17:54
List of races - Tracking homicides in Chicago - Tracking homicides in Chicago | RedeyeChicago.com (http://homicides.redeyechicago.com/races/)


Tell me about White Cops killing Black Men.....after you read the Stats for Chicago.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0Ak3IIavLYTovdGhfeHY5VmhGaXVOVmNiWlpPdWRfWUE&output=html

Gertrude the Wombat
26th Nov 2014, 18:02
Go to Miami, Florida
No thanks.


My grandma went to Miami once. She went for a walk. This was obviously such a suspicious activity that someone called the police who came to interrogate her.

John Hill
26th Nov 2014, 18:51
Camden, New Jersey

Sounds like a great place to visit, I will surely put it on my itinerary..

In 2010, massive police corruption was exposed that resulted in the convictions of several policemen, dismissals of 185 criminal cases, and lawsuit settlements totaling $3.5 million that were paid to 88 victims. The current Camden Police Chief is John Scott Thomson.

chuks
26th Nov 2014, 19:18
Even though it's Miami, nobody should wear go-go boots, net stockings, a mini-skirt, a sequined tank top and a bouffant blonde wig when they go "for a walk" down Biscayne Boulevard late at night.

That's "reasonable cause" for an interrogation, Gertrude. I simply do not see where your problem lies with American police procedures.

The same thing happened to me that happened to your grandma, but once I explained that I was just a tourist out seeing the sights the police even gave me a ride back to my hotel.

The recent movie "American Hustle" is a fictionalized version of what John is referring to above, corruption in Camden, New Jersey. It's pretty funny, intentionally funny, instead of that other kind of funny some posters here go for so much.

Dushan
26th Nov 2014, 19:36
No thanks.


My grandma went to Miami once. She went for a walk. This was obviously such a suspicious activity that someone called the police who came to interrogate her.

Well duh, normal people don't "go for a walk" in Miami heat.

wings folded
26th Nov 2014, 21:11
Well duh, normal people don't "go for a walk" in Miami heat.
Once when working on an assignment in Miami (well, Coral Gables to be precise)
I went for a walk to South Beach. It was a pleasant 26 degrees (work out your own conversion if you need to)

I was intercepted five times by the forces of law and order, who were clearly highly suspicious of a lame bloke limping along roads which made no provision for pedestrian traffic (sidewalk or footpath, again work out your own conversion)

The "heat" I experienced did not come from the Wx. It came from the police.

After explanations during which they did recognise I was not quite from thereabouts, they did let me go, but I was a bit shaken to have a gun drawn on me before being asked why I was "walking" on one of the five intercepts.

So I am not normal, then; I tried to walk in Miami.

Glad to be abnormal.

con-pilot
26th Nov 2014, 21:18
We used to RONs all the time in Miami and I used to walk all over the place, sometimes with other people and many times by myself. I didnt have trouble walking back then.

I was never stopped by the police.

Fact is, I've been stopped by the police in London a lot more times than I have anywhere in the US. I have been stopped only once in the US, Detroit*, but three times in London.



* I was walking back to my hotel, was stopped, asked what I was doing in that area and they gave me a ride back to the hotel.

Gertrude the Wombat
26th Nov 2014, 21:26
Even though it's Miami, nobody should wear go-go boots, net stockings, a mini-skirt, a sequined tank top and a bouffant blonde wig when they go "for a walk" down Biscayne Boulevard late at night.
Elderly lady, dressed normally, middle class suburb, broad daylight.

(OK so she occasionally used to help herself to cuttings of plants she could reach from the pavement, but that never provoked a police response, not even when she did it in Kew Gardens, and that wasn't what the police were interested in on this occasion.)

obgraham
26th Nov 2014, 21:51
Well you lot are apparently lucky to be alive.

After all America is swarming with cops who just want to shoot you now, and identify you later.

West Coast
26th Nov 2014, 21:59
Funny how gertie always has a story available. Some would throw the BS flag, not me, I believe ya.

Gertrude the Wombat
26th Nov 2014, 23:14
She'd gone out for a walk, apparently a completely unheard of thing in this petrolhead neighbourhood, without a watch.

So as she walked past a woman in her garden, she asked her the time.

The woman screamed and ran indoors and called the police.

The police started from the viewpoint that actually my grandma was in fact harmless, and were asking her where her broken-down car was and why she hadn't stayed with it whilst waiting for help. They just could not get through their heads the concept that a white middle class woman had voluntarily walked somewhere, and eventually gave up trying to offer her a lift home and wrote her off as a mad foreigner.

I don't think she was, on this occasion, in any danger at all of being shot by the cops. If the panicking householder had had a gun handy, on the other hand ...

(The only American who said he'd nearly shot me might have simply been joking, and failing to realise that to some people that sort of thing might not be funny.)

West Coast
26th Nov 2014, 23:17
So as she walked past a woman in her garden, she asked her the time.

The woman screamed and ran indoors and called the police.


Riiiigggghhhhttttt.....

Ethel the Aardvark
26th Nov 2014, 23:45
A bit shocked to hear a three year old shot his mother.
I didn't think you could get your gun license until you were six?

rh200
26th Nov 2014, 23:51
A bit shocked to hear a three year old shot his mother.

Called Darwinism Ethel, get over it.

Mr Chips
27th Nov 2014, 00:31
My grandma went to Miami once. She went for a walk. This was obviously such a suspicious activity that someone called the police who came to interrogate her.

The police started from the viewpoint that actually my grandma was in fact harmless, and were asking her where her broken-down car was and why she hadn't stayed with it whilst waiting for help. They just could not get through their heads the concept that a white middle class woman had voluntarily walked somewhere, and eventually gave up trying to offer her a lift home and wrote her off as a mad foreigner.

Ok, I'm just home after a long shift and I'm a bit tired, but the second account doesn't look to me like "interrogation, it looks like Cops showing concern and wanting to help.

And this from the person who constantly accuses them of looking for people to murder.

Feel free to justify your lies Gertrude....

Lord Spandex Masher
27th Nov 2014, 00:54
You've been watching too many terrorist films.

Interrogate means to ask questions. Which, it appears, was what the cops were doing.

galaxy flyer
27th Nov 2014, 01:01
Back to the OP, if you know how many guns are in your safe, you don't have enough.

GF

Pinky the pilot
27th Nov 2014, 01:14
Back to the OP, if you know how many guns are in your safe, you don't have enough.

I really don't know how many I have in my safe galaxy flyer* but I do know that I don't have enough yet!

Still would like to add to the collection a 1911 45ACP and a Colt s/a Army in 45LC.:ok:


* If I sat down and thought about it I could probably tell you, but it would take me about 10 minutes I guess.:hmm:

galaxy flyer
27th Nov 2014, 01:22
I have a 1911 or two, but sold the Model Ps to build a house--a New Frontier in .45 LC among them. Sad to say.

GF

West Coast
27th Nov 2014, 02:10
Back to the OP, if you know how many guns are in your safe, you don't have enough

If safe is singular, you don't have enough guns.

probes
27th Nov 2014, 06:27
and even then 'safe' might be fictional.

Boudreaux Bob
27th Nov 2014, 06:29
Is it possible to have too many guns?

For sure you can have not enough.

rh200
27th Nov 2014, 06:45
Is it possible to have too many guns?

yea, if you can't get out of bed in the middle of the night to take a slash without tripping over them:p

West Coast
27th Nov 2014, 07:40
Naaaw...colostomy bag

Mr Chips
27th Nov 2014, 10:28
You've been watching too many terrorist films.
Interrogate means to ask questions. Which, it appears, was what the cops were doing.
Garbage. An emotive word was deliberately chosen, and then the actual description of the incident showed it to be a totally different scenario.

You can get as pedantic about words as you like (and normally do) but Gertrude is making sweeping statements about US cops and has yet to substantiate a single one.

MagnusP
27th Nov 2014, 10:33
Interrogate means to ask questions.

"Hi; how are you?"

OMG; I'm being interrogated!

flydive1
27th Nov 2014, 10:37
Video of the shooting

Video of Cleveland police shooting of boy released - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/26/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/)

Seems to happen pretty quick.
How did they tell him to raise his hands 3 times.

Police spokesman says "they told him to raise his hands and to drop his weapon(tucked into his belt)" How was he supposed do do that?

Lord Spandex Masher
27th Nov 2014, 10:42
Garbage.

Oh, it doesn't mean to ask questions?

Finding certain words emotive is rather subjective. Point in question is Magnus' post just above.

MagnusP
27th Nov 2014, 10:56
Calm down, dear. When the Tucson police pulled up beside me, it was a polite enquiry, not a waterboarding.

Lord Spandex Masher
27th Nov 2014, 10:58
Why do you only relate the word interrogation to torture?

MagnusP
27th Nov 2014, 11:00
I think you'll find, dear, that I don't have to reply to your diversionary tactic questions.

chuks
27th Nov 2014, 11:00
"To ask someone questions in a thorough and often forceful way," according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary. Need we look much further to call BS on Gertrude's troubling tale of excessive US policing?

Gertrude, what do you suppose the reaction would be if Granny had come to some harm, wandering often-dangerous Miami without local knowledge? (Liberty City looks rather nice, but the locals know not to linger at the red stop lights there, for example.)

There, the police were just doing their job, "to serve and protect." You would probably have been wailing a lot louder about this if Granny had been left to wander and had fallen victim to street crime, of which Miami has a lot.

Gertrude the Wombat
27th Nov 2014, 11:02
Garbage. An emotive word was deliberately chosen, and then the actual description of the incident showed it to be a totally different scenario.

I think it was a fair use.


Little old ladies in the UK are not used to being stopped by the police and asked repeatedly and at length to explain why they're walking harmlessly down the road.


(My lads, on the other hand ...)

Gertrude the Wombat
27th Nov 2014, 11:04
Gertrude, what do you suppose the reaction would be if Granny had come to some harm, wandering often-dangerous Miami without local knowledge?
No reason to suppose lack of local knowledge - I expect she discussed going for a walk with her hosts before leaving the house, rather than just walking out of the door without a word. They might have thought this was an odd thing to want to do (I don't know), but they didn't warn her not to.

Lord Spandex Masher
27th Nov 2014, 11:04
Magnus, please don't. It's obvious why you don't want to.

Diversionary tactic questions? Ah hahahahahah, right.

chuks
27th Nov 2014, 12:42
I was hosting a couple of young Finnish girls who were visiting the Americas, letting them stay with me in a southern suburb of Miami. They had gone off to visit a Finnish settlement further north and then called me when they were back in town ... from one of the worst parts of town!

I told them to stay there in the restaurant they had called from, not to leave, and that I would be right up to give them a lift. They were up there in the heart of a central Miami red-light district, kerb-crawlers and whores everywhere, but how should they know that?

Unfortunately, many American cities have no-go zones right next to nice areas, putting unknowing visitors at great risk. In Atlanta, for instance, you may be told to drive to that restaurant you can see just across the way from your hotel, in easy walking distance. That's because of rampant street crime, often done by poor, innocent little "black boys" who look just like the son Barack Obama never had, Trayvon Martin. (Remember him, the last unarmed innocent to die? Got some guy down and started pounding on him, when the fellow shot him dead. Oops .... )

Once Washington, D.C. got its Metro, black crime spread out from the ghetto. I was bemused one day to answer the door bell and find a little black kid selling candy, at about 1:30 p.m. When I told my mother about that later, what a silly idea, trying to sell candy at that time of day, she told me that kid was a scout, checking if anyone was at home. Nobody answers the bell, then the kid's big brother and his pals come to visit, take some reparations for slavery or whatever. Gee, I hadn't thought of that angle, not being a racist or anything ....

A lot of you guys love to spout off about America's problems, but often you show yourselves to be grossly ignorant of the big picture.

rh200
27th Nov 2014, 13:04
was hosting a couple of young Finnish girls who were visiting the Americas

Chuks, this a very confusing post, not like your usual well put ones. Perhaps some pictures might help us understand what your getting at.:E

Dushan
27th Nov 2014, 13:07
I was hosting a couple of young Finnish girls who were visiting the Americas, letting them stay with me in a southern suburb of Miami.

You devil, you:=

Boudreaux Bob
27th Nov 2014, 13:12
Little old ladies in the UK are not used to being stopped by the police and asked repeatedly and at length to explain why they're walking harmlessly down the road.

Perhaps the Police were just trying to figure out how she did it UNHARMED?

Boudreaux Bob
27th Nov 2014, 14:11
This is why we have Guns.

The Irregular Militia Deploys To Ferguson | Opinion - Conservative (http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2014/11/the-irregular-militia-deploys-to-ferguson-2939764.html)

Gertrude the Wombat
27th Nov 2014, 14:42
Perhaps the Police were just trying to figure out how she did it UNHARMED?
It never occurs to those of us brought up in safe places that anybody who wants to (of any age and gender) shouldn't just walk down any road they want to at any time of day or night.


However I do realise that the entire world isn't like that. We did sometimes ask for local advice before going for walks in Jamaica. In consequence, in some places we were perfectly happy walking around at night, and in others we didn't go out even in the daytime on our own; but even in most of those places it was perfectly safe if we had a with a well-known local with us - the baddies didn't mess with guests of respected members of the community even if we were white tourists.

Matari
27th Nov 2014, 15:50
And that, in the end, is what all these gun threads are about.

Pages of typical British smugness, masquerading as "concern" for oppressed victims in bad old America.

Those of us who have traveled a bit know the difference between an insular, lily-white English village, and rough-and-tumble, multi-ethnic neighborhoods in Leeds, Marseilles or St. Louis.

The pretense of their "safer" world extends no further than the local Royal Mail post office, where the locals gather to tut-tut about the others, comfortable in their little world of sheltered fantasy.

chuks
27th Nov 2014, 15:50
Part of the problem in the States is that getting tough on crime often has racial overtones, when you can easily be seen to be doing racial targeting. That's logical but a no-no, just asking young blacks whose faces don't fit what they are doing hanging around the high-rent district, for instance.

I was told about a van-load of black street crims, basically, who showed up at a liberal college campus in southern Vermont, just paying a visit, but when they left, so did a few laptops and i-Phones.

One college kid, ashamed to admit it, then said that, well, he had noted the van's license plate number, seeming to think that showed he was some sort of terrible bigot, being suspicious of a van-load of shifty blacks. The State Police, the only law west of Brattleboro, soon pulled the van over on its way back to Massachusetts, just short of the Interstate, and found it loaded with liberal goodies. What a surprise.

Then there was this house full of young blacks in Brattleboro, who certainly did stand out in the crowd since Vermont is only about 1.2% black. I clocked it one day and was a bit startled to see all these "gangsta" types and their women hanging out, giving me the "Watchu lookin' at, White Boy?" stink-eye. I thought to myself that they probably weren't in town to do macrame.

Not long afterwards, there was a right old barney in the middle of town, two black "ho's" being abducted, screaming, from the big parking garage by two black thugs in a big white Cadillac.

That was some trouble over an unpaid bill for heroin, it seems, since the head gangsta told a reporter for the Brattleboro Reformer that "Nobody gets away without paying me for my heroin!" Can the State use that sort of statement as evidence? Either way, I guess that guy won't be taking the test to join Mensa.

All in all, it was pretty funny, watching my little liberal classmates trying to hold fast to their fantasies in the face of this sort of thing. To them I was a stone racist, of course, although how I managed to spend so many years in Africa thinking so incorrectly ... that was a mystery they never did try to solve.