Pilot Costs

[JW411]

On a neighbouring thread I was interested to see that Hand Solo quoted that pilot costs "only equalled 13% of the BA budget".

Maximuss didn't mention his company but he reckoned that in his company the figure was 5%.

I seem to remember (a long time ago) that Fred Laker told me that his figure was "less than 7%".

Is there anyone out there who REALLY understand figures that can give us the truth?

Alternatively, it might be interesting to have a bit of a survey? There is certainly a huge difference between Hand Solo's 13% and Maximuss's 5%.

[JW411]

Maximuss:

I do apologise; I have just reread your last contribution and have now realised that you stated in your post that you worked for BACE.

[Hand Solo]

The figure I quoted was that BA pilots represent 13% of BAs total labour costs. Labour represents 27-28% of total BA costs. Ergo those 'expensive' BA pilots represent approximately 3.64% of BAs total costs, lower than BACEs 5% and nearly half of low-cost Lakers 7%. These are figures supplied by BA.

[JW411]

Hand Solo:

I am grateful to you for producing a meaningful figure. That is exactly what I think we pilots would find of interest.

As you say, percentages on their own are misleading unless you know what it is a percentage of.

The Laker figure was a percentage of direct operating costs and not that of total expenditure.

[JW411]

Hand Solo:

I have been thinking about your figures during the course of the day. Laker crew costs were bound to be high when viewed as a proportion of the whole budget. We had some 275 pilots and over 100 F/Es but the entire workforce was only around 2500. Therefore, the aircrew represented 15% of the entire workforce.

At that time, BA had around 58000 employees so if we were to apply the same 15% to that then we would arrive at some 8700 aircrew. Did BA actually have that many? I rather doubt it for what you had (still have) is too many managers and hangers-on.

In any event (believe me) I am not trying to prove that one organisation is more effficient than the other. As you well know, every time management wants to have a money saving exercise the first place they attack is flight operations. What I was hoping to get was some ammunition that we could throw at the bean counters next time we have to fight our corners or look for a pay rise.

I have never believed that flight crews do not do their best to be efficient and I think it is high time that the bean counters looked elsewhere when they're looking for economies. Therefore, some facts and figures would be useful.

[Hand Solo]

Well if you want some comparative figures on departmental efficiencies, the entire budget for Flight Ops in BA is £195M for 3500 pilots, which is about £55,700 per head. The budget for Cabin Services is £485M for 13000 cabin crew, which as about £37,000 per head. Given the relative cost of training flight crew vs cabin crew it gives some indication of just one source of waste within BA.

It is true that BA is grossly overstaffed in the middle management area, and in the upper management area the company is grossly under-skilled! However even if you reduce the overall workforce within BA, the Flight Ops dept still represents a highly economical and cost effective department. Evidence for this includes;

i) Lower salary scales than AF, LH, KL (low cost operators also pay more but are not included due to their lack of long haul ops)

ii) More hours flown per annum by BA pilots than AF, LH, KL.

iii) Fewer days off per annum than AF, LH, KL.

iv) Fewer pilots per airframe than AF, LH, KL.

v) Heavy crews consisting of 1 Capt, 2 FOs as opposed to 2 Capt, 1 FO in competitor airlines.

vi) Two crew ops on the N.Atlantic, as opposed to 3 crew ops on all US carriers.

There are many other examples of how BA is getting a damn good deal from its flight crew, but at this time of night it's a bit too taxing on the brain to remember them!

Oh yeah, should have mentioned FOs crewing 763s to the USA on a basic salary below £24K.

[fiftyfour]

JW411,
Costs of crews are part of the mandatory company financial returns that are given to CAA, and published in CAP663. I seem to remember pointing this out to Hand Solo before but he keeps quoting his own figures, trying to prove that BA crews are underpaid relative to others.
I don't have a recent CAP663, but the 1998 edition states that average expenditure per pilot head is as follows:

Air 2000 £52300
Airtours 50500
Britannia 68300
BA 75500
BM 56900
Caledonian 46500
Flying Colours 63400
Heavylift 40600
KLM UK 42200
Leisure Intl 42900
Monarch 53200
Virgin 52600
Others 35500

There is only one category of staff in any of the major airlines that 'cost' their company more than BA staff costs it's company, and that is Britannia. Their ticketing and sales staff cost £23700 per head, against BA which is £20500.

[JW411]

fiftyfour:

I am very grateful to you for your posting. I had no idea that CAP 663 existed!

I had hoped that I might get more of a response from our colleagues from overseas but I have resigned myself to the fact that most of us turn up for negotiations with the management with little idea of what we are worth and are actually costing the bean-counters.

Thanks anyway.

[Hand Solo]

Fiftyfour - which part of These are BA figures is it that you don't understand? Shall I explain it to you in simple terms? These figures are from BA themselves, not from me, and they have no great interest in making their flight crew seem anything less than overpaid. Why are you deliberately attempting to mislead people as to the cost of BAs operation by quoting figures which are 3 years old, do not reflect the retirement of over 600 highly paid pre-privatisation Captains, the huge increases in flight crew productivity, the almost complete pay freeze and the introduction of B-scale pay? If you have an axe to grind at least have some current facts to hand. To imply that staff 'costs' equate to staff pay is simplistic to say the least. Do you really think BA ticketing staff are paid an average of £20500 pa? Try £8500 and you'd be much closer to the mark.

[Scottie]

These costs surely aren't salaries. These are total costs which include salary, company's pension contribution, companys NI contribution and all the other bits and pieces that the employer spends but which the employee never sees.

[toro]

Just spoke to LCG who claims that the flight ops salary costs are £32,000,000 divided by approx 3250 Pilots is an overall cost of £100,000 per person.....!!!! Mind you he also admitted to having offloaded 38 YES 38 excess managers from flight ops who he can,t (why not) actually sack who are now sitting in Cranebank doing nothing...:confused: :confused: :confused:

[fiftyfour]

HandSolo

True, the figures are from 3 or 4 years ago, which I did point out.
You are probably right when you say that BA pilots work much harder now than they used to, and that 600 old timers on massive salaries have since gone. Just like you, everyone in my company works more/harder/longer than they did 4 years ago. Fortunately we haven't had to carry a legacy of old timers on large salaries at the expense of new (but experienced) recruits. Everyone gets a fair wage, and the diferentials are easily justifiable.