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LowNSlow
21st Nov 2014, 15:18
Sub-Saharan African (not including SA) population growth over the decades:

1950 - 1960 - 38,810,000 - 22.9% growth
1960 - 1970 - 58,248,000 - 28.0% growth
1970 - 1980 - 84,622,000 - 31.7% growth
1980 - 1990 - 116,280,000 - 33.1% growth
1990 - 2000 - 145,255,000 - 31.1% growth
2000 - 2010 - 189,143,000 - 30.9% growth

Overall the growth is apparently slowing but the actual population is still increasing at an alarming rate.

info from GeoHive - Historic, current and future population: Africa (http://www.geohive.com/earth/his_proj_africa.aspx)

Famines & Population Growth:

Somalia 2010-2012 - Pop growth of 859,583,000 (8.9%) between 2010-2014
Sudan 1998 - Pop growth of 7,721,000 (38.6%) between 1990-2000
Somalia 1991-1992 - Pop growth of 1,063,000 (16.8%) between 1990-2000
Ethiopia 1983-1985 - Pop growth of 12,802,000 (36.3%) between 1980-1990
Uganda 1980-1983 - Pop growth of 4,985,000 (39.7%) between 1980-1990
Ethiopia 1972-1973 - Pop growth of 6,286,000 (24.0%) between 1970-1980
Nigeria 1967-1970 - Pop growth of 10,920,000 (24.2%) between 1960-1970
Ethiopia 1958 - Pop growth of 4,023,000 (22.2%) between 1950-1960

To give a comparison:
Adding the total population of France, Italy, UK, Germany and Russia gives:
1950 = 311,708,000
2013 = 413,978,137
Pop increase = 102,270,137 (32.8%)

Adding the population of Somalia, Uganda, Sudan, Ethiopia and Nigeria gives:
1950 = 69,144,000
2013 = 353,754,866
Pop increase = 284,610,866 (411.6%) Yes, that's right, a population increase of 411.6% and the food production has stagnated over the last 50 years How Africa can solve its food crisis by growing more crops sustainably | Camilla Toulmin | Global development | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2013/apr/18/africa-food-crisis-growing-crops-sustainably)


What will it take to make the world realise that these countries cannot continue to populate themselves at this rate unless their agriculture and infrastructure catches up with the demand? Never was the name BandAid more appropriate as this method of restructuring the starving nations is indeed a BandAid sticking plaster on a gaping wound.

Will the so called developed world take the cynical option and sub-Saharn Africa to overpopulate to the point of total social collapse?

If that happens then the current throngs of would be migrants on the North African coast will turn into a tidal wave that will not be stopped.

airship
21st Nov 2014, 15:37
Somalia 2010-2012 - Pop growth of 859,583,000 (8.9%) between 2010-2014

Apart from wishing that black Africans and 1st World politicians / governments stop feckin' about, just what is your point...? :E

Capetonian
21st Nov 2014, 15:41
Somalia 2010-2012 - Pop growth of 859,583,000 (8.9%) between 2010-2014
What? The population of Somalia is under 12,000,000.

A for bandaid, the plaster doesn't even stick.

SpringHeeledJack
21st Nov 2014, 16:08
This thread could be about the unintended consequences of kindness. The massive amounts of aid/grants/loans/donations funnelled into Africa by both public charity and through government have caused more issues than they have solved.

The charity behemoth has caused the people to become not just healthier and longer living, but also to be dependent on said charity. The political bribes have feathered the nests of the despot leaders who then allow access to the privileged few to make trade, whilst tolerating the mess in their respective lands and keeping the status quo. The clothes we give suffocate the clothing industries in the recipient countries, thus causing more misery. The fertility of African people produces more mouths to be fed and it all goes on in a wonderfully symbiotic way. Many are pouring out of the poverty into the so called 1st World causing both themselves and the unwitting citizens of those countries further issues that were wholly avoidable. This is all without adding in the ever more problematic issue of religious fervour.

It might seem cruel, but we need to have a rethink about just how things are being done.


SHJ

tony draper
21st Nov 2014, 16:18
An interesting insight, by Kevin Myers* ?

Somalia is not a humanitarian disaster; it is an evolutionary disaster. The current drought is not the worst in 50 years, as the BBC and all the aid organisations claim.
It is nothing compared to the droughts in 1960/61 or 1973/74.
And there are continuing droughts every 5 years or so.
It's just that there are now four times the population; having been kept alive by famine relief, supplied by aid organisations, over the past 50 years.
So, of course, the effects of any drought now, is a famine. They cannot even feed themselves in a normal rainfall year.

Worst yet, the effects of these droughts, and poor nutrition in the first 3 years of the a child's life, have a lasting effect on the development of the infant brain, so that if they survive, they will never achieve a normal IQ ..
Consequently, they are selectively breeding a population, who cannot be educated, let alone one that is not being educated; a recipe for disaster.

We are seeing this impact now, and it can only exacerbate, to the detriment of their neighbours, and their environment as well. This scenario can only
end in an even worse disaster; with even worse suffering, for those benighted people, and their descendants.
Eventually, some mechanism will intervene, be it war, disease or starvation.

So what do we do? Let them starve?
What a dilemma for our Judeo/ Christian/Islamic Ethos; as well as Hindu/Buddhist morality.
And this is beginning to happen in Kenya, Ethiopia, and other countries in Asia, like Pakistan.
Is this the beginning of the end of civilisation?

AFRICA is giving nothing to anyone outside Africa -- apart from AIDS and new diseases.
Even as we see African states refusing to take action to restore something resembling civilisation in Zimbabwe, the begging bowl for Ethiopia is being passed around to us out of Africa, yet again.
It is nearly 25 years since the famous Feed The World campaign began in Ethiopia, and in that timeEthiopia's population has grown from 33.5 million to 78+ million today.
So, why on earth should I do anything to encourage further catastrophic demographic growth in that country?
Where is the logic? There is none.

To be sure, there are two things saying that logic doesn't count.
One is my conscience, and the other is the picture, yet again, of another wide-eyed child, yet again, gazing,yet again, at the camera, which yet again, captures the tragedy of children starving.

Sorry. My conscience has toured this territory on foot and financially.
Unlike most of you, I have been to Ethiopia; like most of you, I have stumped up the loot to charities to stop starvation there.
The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a low IQ, AK 47-bearing moron, siring children whenever the whim takes him and blaming the world because he is uneducated, poor and left behind.
There is no doubt a good argument why we should prolong this predatory and dysfunctional economic, social and sexual system but I do not know what it is.
There is, on the other hand, every reason not to write a column like this.
It will win no friends and will provoke the self-righteous wrath of, well, the self-righteous hand wringing,letter writing wrathful individuals; a species which never fails to contaminate almost every debate in Irish life with its sneers and its moral superiority.
It will also probably enrage some of the finest men in Irish life, like John O'Shea, of Goal; and the Finucane brothers, men whom I admire enormously.

So be it.

But, please, please, you self-righteously wrathful, spare me mention of our own Irish Famine, with this or that lazy analogy.
There is no comparison.
Within 20 years of the Famine, the Irish population was down by 30%. Over the equivalent period, thanks to western food, the Mercedes 10-wheel truck and the Lockheed Hercules plane, Ethiopia's population has more than doubled.

Alas, that wretched country is not alone in its madness.
Somewhere, over the rainbow, lies Somalia, another fine land of violent, AK 47-toting, khat-chewing, girl-circumcising, permanently tumescent layabouts and housing pirates of the ocean.
Indeed, we now have almost an entire continent of sexually hyperactive, illiterate indigents, with tens of millions of people who only survive because of help from the outside world or allowances by the semi-communist Governments they voted for, money supplied by borrowing it from the World Bank!

This dependency has not stimulated political prudence or commonsense.
Indeed, voodoo idiocy seems to be in the ascendant, with the president of South Africa being a firm believer in the efficacy of a little tap water on the post-coital penis as a sure preventative against AIDS infection.
Needless to say, poverty, hunger and societal meltdown have not prevented idiotic wars involving Tigre,Uganda, Congo, Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea etcetera.
Broad brush-strokes, to be sure.
But broad brush-strokes are often the way that history paints its gaudier, if more decisive, chapters.
Japan, China, Russia, Korea, Poland, Germany, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the 20th century have endured worse broad brush-strokes than almost any part of Africa.
They are now -- one way or another -- virtually all giving aid to or investing in Africa, whereas Africa, with its vast savannahs and its lush pastures, is giving almost nothing to anyone, apart from AIDS.

Meanwhile, Africa's peoples are outstripping their resources, and causing catastrophic ecological degradation.
By 2050, the population of Ethiopia will be 177 million; the equivalent of France, Germany and Benelux today, but located on the parched and increasingly protein-free wastelands of the Great Rift Valley.
So, how much sense does it make for us actively to increase the adult population of what is already a vastly over-populated, environmentally devastated and economically dependent country?

How much morality is there in saving an Ethiopian child from starvation today, for it to survive to a life of brutal circumcision, poverty, hunger, violence and sexual abuse, resulting in another half-dozen such wide-eyed children, with comparably jolly little lives ahead of them?

Of course, it might make you feel better, which is a prime reason for so much charity!

But that is not good enough.
For self-serving generosity has been one of the curses of Africa. It has sustained political systems which would otherwise have collapsed.
It prolonged the Eritrean-Ethiopian war by nearly a decade. It is inspiring Bill Gates' programme to rid the continent of malaria, when, in the almost complete absence of personal self-discipline, that disease is one of the most efficacious forms of population-control now operating.
If his programme is successful, tens of millions of children who would otherwise have died in infancy will survive to adulthood, he boasts.


*Kevin Myers (born 30 March 1947) is an Irish journalis

airship
21st Nov 2014, 17:56
SHJ, I'm not completely ignorant. As you only partially advanced, the subject is hugely complex. Certainly well beyond my own capability to reach anything but an imperfect understanding of it all. That there is no clear-cut 'answer' as to the best way to proceed in future or even just trying to determine the past causes leading to these predicaments.

Make your choices between climate, development, culture, warfare, religion, politics and national interests. We don't control the weather. But everything else, well what was the part our governments played...?! :\

The reason I took some umbrage with the OP is that all of us, whover we are or wherever we live today are all originally 'out of Africa'. And alas, it's not easy to just do nothing, however agonyzing. Although the following photos are not 'out of Africa', they can be easily transposed:

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/307/3/6/do_not_feed_the_humans_by_xvalveeta-d4f0pwi.jpg

http://lizzeesolomon.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/dontfeedthehumans.jpg

rgbrock1
21st Nov 2014, 18:02
airship:

Perhaps the lady in your photo wouldn't be in the predicament she's in if she simply ate the well-fed dog. :ok:

airship
21st Nov 2014, 18:24
But without the dog, the animal-lovers might also ignore her. And she would then lose her sole means of subsistance (if you leave out social security, other welfare etc. perhaps) and experienced a very painful death on the pavement whilst being consumed by equally-ravenous hyenas... :ok:

Blacksheep
21st Nov 2014, 19:14
Mother Nature has an irresistible way of dealing with overpopulation and antibiotics are coming to the end of their usefulness.

airship
21st Nov 2014, 19:35
Is using the phrase "Mother Nature" in the above context more commonly known as an oxymoron? After all, nature to me has always been neutral, whereas mother has a definite other connotation...

SpringHeeledJack
21st Nov 2014, 20:32
Wasn't it the Gaia Hypothosis, whereby the Earth is seen as a living sentient thing with an innate intelligence ? Well able to rebalance itself when imbalances have occurred. Humans would be like a mutating bacteria to such a thing :uhoh:


SHJ

Low Flier
21st Nov 2014, 20:38
Considered opinion(s)

Mechta
21st Nov 2014, 22:14
What Kevin Myers conveniently left out, was the fact that between 1850 and 1913 over 4.5 million Irish men and women emigrated; over five times the number killed by the famine.

If you have ever wondered how starving people managed to pay for a passage to a new home thousands of miles away, the answer is that they didn't. The landowners paid the fare to get rid of them*.

One could compare this exodus to the Somalis who have headed North to Leicester and the like, although their source of funding is anybody's guess.


*A fact I discovered that when visiting a workhouse in Donaghmore, County Laois. Donaghmore Famine Workhouse Museum-Donaghmore Portlaoise Co Laois Ireland. (http://www.donaghmoremuseum.com/)

tony draper
21st Nov 2014, 22:32
There were 1.2 billion people wandering the Earth in 1850,there was still a bit room left then.
There has never ever been a situation such as we face now,bringing historical human migration into it is nonsense.

Capetonian
21st Nov 2014, 22:38
Blabbermouth Obama has been shooting his mouth off about accepting more immigrants into the USA. Good, let him take some of his own lot then, the sub Saharan Africans. I think many European countries would willingly donate to this excellent cause too.

con-pilot
21st Nov 2014, 23:24
Blabbermouth Obama has been shooting his mouth off about accepting more immigrants into the USA. Good, let him take some of his own lot then, the sub Saharan Africans. I think many European countries would willingly donate to this excellent cause too.

Ouch. :ouch:

RedhillPhil
22nd Nov 2014, 00:14
We shouldn't be feeding 'em, we should be vasectomising 'em.

Andu
22nd Nov 2014, 01:46
I am obviously nowhere near as clever as Mr Obama. I mean, I don't even have a Nobel Peace Prize. So that might explain why he can see a different, happier result for the US to what I believe can be the only result to his grand, 'humanitarian' gesture of rewarding 5 million people clever enough to immigrate illegally to the US and then drop an 'anchor baby' on the right side of the US border.

How in the world can this grand gesture result in anything but another 5 million people - and probably many, many more - flooding in to the US and dropping their own anchor baby as they await the next grand gesture?

david1300
22nd Nov 2014, 10:52
We shouldn't be feeding 'em, we should be vasectomising 'em.

Well that will never work. Miss just one fertile male and he can impregnate at least 365 fertile females a year. However, if you sterilized the breeding females in the herd, and you miss just one, you can only breed one sprog a year no matter how many fertile males you have. In fact, the fertile males will start killing each other to get at the single breeding female. ;)

Capetonian
22nd Nov 2014, 10:55
if you sterilized the breeding females in the herd, and you miss just one, you can only breed one sprog a year no matter how many fertile males you have. In fact, the fertile males will start killing each other to get at the single breeding female

Breathtakingly simple and effective.

david1300 please stand for election ...... anywhere. People like you are in short supply and needed badly!

SpringHeeledJack
22nd Nov 2014, 11:05
With modern politics over-favouring female rights compared to males (perhaps as a reaction to past occurrences), the chances of the 1st World sanctioning any female in the 3rd World being neutered is highly unlikely, males a bit more likely. The realistic offering will be condoms and edumacation.


SHJ

Capetonian
22nd Nov 2014, 11:19
The RF tried to do something similar in Rhodesia, injecting women in the tribal trustlands of childbearing age with a contraceptive called Depero Provira (sp?) which was meant to prevent conception for three months but probably had an intentional long term effect of sterilisation in the doses thayt were administered.

Mac the Knife
22nd Nov 2014, 11:28
"Will the so called developed world take the cynical option and sub-Saharan Africa to overpopulate to the point of total social collapse?"

At current trends this will happen anyway because the developed world simply cannot afford to subsidise uncontrolled reproduction indefinitely.

If birth control continues to remain culturally unacceptable to all but a relative minority in SSA then social collapse is inevitable.

OTOH, fatalism, tribalism, superstition, political nepotism and corruption have already produced several de facto failed states where deaths from homicide, malnutrition and perinatal death is starting to limit population growth.

"Empta dolore experientia docet"

Mac

"Don't eat the seed-corn!"

PS:Capetonian, use of Depo-Provera is relatively common in South Africa (and other countries) & it does not, nor has it ever, resulted in permanent sterilisation so don't talk nonsense.

cockney steve
22nd Nov 2014, 13:40
Well! that Kevin Myers doesn't mince his words, does he! shame his mass audience wasn't a bit more erudite. (but our own FSL Draper has corrected that) :}
I concur with virtually everything he's said..... As a kid at school, we learned about the African Continent, full of Lions, Tigers, Elephants, Wildebeeste, Antelopes and the like There were lush savannahs, teeming wildlife and a small indigenous population who were supported by this bounteous land.... Come the drought, they had no reserves. Darwinian factors ensured the fittest followed the resources and survived.

Until the Whitey hand-wringing do-gooders stepped in to unbalance things.....we have had over 50 years of subsidising, teaching and providing and still it hasn't clicked.
THEY DO NOT WANT TO BOTHER WITH SELF-SUFFICIENCY At least 3 generations have been brainwashed to believing that Whitey will always pull a rabbit out of his hat, to sustain them.
WARN them, IN ONE YEAR, ALL AID CEASES. Learn and apply our lessons , or die. Then take sanctions against any country or group interfering with the destiny of this basket-case continent.

Perhaps Farage will adopt that as part of his Manifesto? :p

Capetonian
22nd Nov 2014, 13:44
PS:Capetonian, use of Depo-Provera is relatively common in South Africa (and other countries) & it does not, nor has it ever, resulted in permanent sterilisation so don't talk nonsense. Mac, the rumour that went round in Rhodesia was that the doses given were doubled/increased so as to result in sterilisation. There is stuff on the internet (and I know the danger of that!) saying that DP can have long term side effects including permanent infertility.
You are in the medical profession, I cede to your superior knowledge, I'm only repeating what we heard in Rhodesia in the 70s.

There are various versions of the Fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper :


OLD VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.

The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE OLD STORY: Be responsible for yourself!

MODERN SOUTH AFRICAN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving.

CCN, TV1,2 & 3, M-Net and Carte Blanche show up to provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.

The country is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

The ANCYL stages a demonstration in front of the ant's house where the news stations film the group singing, We shall overcome.

Then Rev. Desmond Tutu has the group kneel down to pray for the grasshopper's sake.

President Zuma condemns the ant and blames President de Klerk, President PW Botha, HF Verwoerd and Apartheid for the grasshopper's plight.

Julius Malema exclaims in an interview with TV News that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the Government drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of black bugs (BBE) and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated under the Government Land Repo Act and given to the grasshopper.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper and his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the ant's food while the government house he is in, which, as you recall, just happens to be the ant’s old house, crumbles around them because the grasshopper didn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared to Australia, never to be seen again.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drugs related incident, and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of Nigerian spiders who terrorize and ramshackle, the once prosperous and peaceful, neighbourhood.

The South African version
The first part is the same, but because it happens in South Africa, there are a few complications.
The starving, shivering offspring of the grasshopper demand to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while right next door they are living in terrible conditions without food or proper clothing. A T.V crew shows up and broadcasts footage of the poor grasshoppers, contrasting this with footage of the ant snug in his home with plenty of food. The world wide public are stunned.
So how can it be that in this beautiful field, that the little grasshoppers are allowed to suffer so, while the ant lives in the lap of luxury?
In the blink of an eye, SAGU (South African Grasshoppers Union) is formed. They charge the ants with "species bias" and claim that the grasshoppers are victims of 30 million years of green oppression. They stage a protest in front of the ants house and trash the street. The T.V. Crew interview them and they all state that if their demands are not met, they will all be forced into a life of crime. Just for practice, they loot the T.V.Crew's luggage and hijack their van.
The TRC (Take and Re-distribution Committee) justified their behaviour saying that this is the legacy of the ants discrimination towards and oppression of the grasshoppers. They demand that the ant apologise to the grasshoppers for what he has done and that he make amends for all the ants in history who have done the same thing to the grasshopper.PAGAD (People against Grasshopper Abuse and Distress) state that they are staging a holy war against the ants.
The President appears on the 8 o clock news and says that he will do everything for the grasshoppers, who have been denied the property that they deserve, by those who benefited unfairly during the summer. The government drafted the EEGAD ( Economic Equity for Greens and Disadvantaged) act retrospective to the beginning of summer. The ant is
fined for failing to empoly a proportionate number of green insects and having nothing left to pay back taxes, his home is confiscated by the government for re-distribution.
The story ends as we see a grasshopper finishing off the last of the ants food while the government house he's in(which just happens to be the ants old house) crumbles around him because he doesn't know how to maintain it.
Showing on TV (which he and a couple of friends stole from another ant) the president is standing before a group of wildly singing and dancing grasshoppers announcing that the new era of "equality" has dawned on the field.
The ant, meanwhile, is not allowed to work because he has historically benifited from the field. In his place, ten grasshoppers have been appointed to harvest the grass for winter, but the grasshoppers only work 2 hours a day and steal half of what they harvest.
When winter comes again and not enough food has been harvested, they strike and demand a 150% increase so that they can buy food, which now has to be imported because the grasshoppers are not productive enough to produce enough food locally.
The ant packs his things and emigrates to another field, where he starts a highly successful food company and becomes a millionaire by selling food to the field where he comes from.

meadowrun
22nd Nov 2014, 15:32
It is plain this continent has some serious, self-destructive problems.
Feed = increased breeding and population =
Feed = lack of self-sufficiency in food production =
Educate = need jobs to work at. =
Educate = not enough jobs because of corruption and failure to educate effectively. =
Wars =
Religion and old culture = lack of birth control and more breeding =
Corruption = lack of infrastructure, crime, un-educated permanent poor classes =
Wars =
Poor classes = illegal immigration in Lands of Honey =
Never a practical handle on dealing with the situation =

1st world politicos running around spouting useless words, pouring in $$$ and feed and epidemic management until the next one =


http://stylesatlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/A-snake-eating-its-tail.jpg

tony draper
22nd Nov 2014, 16:30
Anybody with any sense walked out of Africa 120 thousand years ago and sensible people left behind gave up and followed the first lot out 40 thousand years later.
Let evolution have it way and leave Africa to the none human wildlife.
:suspect:

dazdaz1
22nd Nov 2014, 17:56
So true Tony, I've given up paying a few quid to Africa via people standing around in major supermarkets. Africa (multiple countries) must have had billions of aid, they still breed like rabbits!!!!!. Let them all go their own way as mother Earth intends.

Having said that, I have lost all influence viewing SKY adds with children close up with big sorrowful eyes and big bellies.

My old mum, passed away 2012 no sodden help with her after care, council did not have the funds. Makes me sick to see the millions going to Africa when we in the UK should look after our older mothers and fathers. Geldoff go f*ck yourself firking traitor to your country, oh hang on, he's Irish.

dazdaz1
22nd Nov 2014, 18:27
Having said that, I'm alarmed by the news media, Abdul/Mohamed/and all muslim (I use lower case) names are taking over our news media. Too much!!! We are being taken over, slowly, but we are.

May the knights of the crusades bring forth their power and defeat the islamic heretics

Andu
22nd Nov 2014, 18:37
The wide-eyed boy-child we saved, 20 years or so ago, is now a low IQ, AK 47-bearing moron, siring children whenever the whim takes him and blaming the world because he is uneducated, poor and left behind.That is probably the second saddest (if distressingly accurate) comment in regard to modern day Africa.

The saddest - and equally most accurate - was made by another European aid worker some years ago, for which she was given the "Enoch Powell treatment" by virtually all the Western media - i.e., pilloried and mercilessly derided for her "raaaascism". I don't have the link to this second statement, and I may even have the gender of the commentator wrong, but to paraphrase, she/he said: "The main problem with Africa is the African male's refusal to stop having unprotected sex with as many partners as he possibly can."

There'll be some here who'll be every bit as outraged that I should repeat that politically incorrect statement here. I've thought on occasion that maybe the best thing the West could do for Africa in the long term is to obey Robert Mugabe's demands to the letter and grant asylum to every African of Caucasian heritage, no matter how many hundreds of years their forebears have been there, thereby leaving all of Africa to be managed entirely by those of Mr Mugabe's ethnicity. That is, remove every 'ant' and leave the place entirely to the 'grasshoppers' - and prevent those well-meaning 'ants' like MSF and Bob Geldorf from muddying the waters with their (in all many cases misnamed) aid.

Capetonian
22nd Nov 2014, 18:53
dazdaz, Tony Draper and Andu hit the nail square on the head.

Having grown up in Africa, visited a substantial proportion of the 58 (I think) countries on that continent, and having seen the cruelty, nepotism, greed, dishonesty, ignorance, corruption and disregard for life of many Africans, I can only agree with the sentiments expressed. My patience and hope ran out many years ago. They completely fail to take advantage of anything the west might offer for them in terms of education and healthcare, it's all wasted, all ends up in the hands of despots, or tosspots if you prefer, and their fat bank accounts.

I too have had a gutfull of the adverts on TV with kids with flies and pus in their eyes and distended bellies, and teenage mothers with Aids and ten Aids ridden infants and tits dangling like used condoms. not that they'd know about condoms.

They want to forever be the victim, and blame everything on the west, imperialism, apartheid, the weather ........ they take no responsibility for themselves.

From the above, I would exclude to a degree the countries of north Africa along the Mediterranean. Not really African, rather more Arab, they have done a little better than the others.

If this sounds racist, maybe I am. Cynical too.

dazdaz1
22nd Nov 2014, 18:59
We (tax payers UK) should just move away from Africa now, I don't give a toss, SKY adds with little children, big watering eyes in a close up. Let them all die, I'm finished donating, toilets for a poo, my money is non now. Mother Earth decries all they pass away into the earth.

Having said that, the Catholic church should be brought into account as to the no no using condoms. My advice to the Pope........ If you don't play the game,don't make the rules"

obgraham
22nd Nov 2014, 21:17
I by no means have the African experience of a lot of you, especially Cape. But I have spent some time in Malawi and in Niger, at western-sponsored (of course!) medical facilities.

And though I came away completely discouraged about the future of Africa, I've a slightly different take. IMHO the problems of Africa can be laid 90% on poor governance. Yes, aided and abetted by policies and cash from the West.

But how is the average, unfortunate African to blame for this. Most that I met, either educated or illiterate, don't wish much different than the rest of us in the world.

I know, idealism, kumbayah, and all that. But I have a little room for empathy also.

Unfortunately, the spread of Islam has sealed what little fate Africa had.

exeng
23rd Nov 2014, 00:08
Well said obgraham,

I have spent many years in West Africa and spent quite a few years visiting many parts of SSA.

These human beings were born into a total mess. They do have the same aspirations of the rest of us.

However we (or I) was lucky enough to be born in a western society such as the UK.

Being devils advocate mind, the current state of affairs cannot continue.


Kind regards
Exeng

meadowrun
23rd Nov 2014, 00:09
There is always fate, good or bad. It's always there waiting for you. If you don't like that fate, turn around and get hit in the face by fate again....there is always more.

Uncle Fred
23rd Nov 2014, 01:01
Another aspect of the problem is that EU and U.S. policies often work to stymie the results of the aid efforts extant in Africa.

EU and U.S. farm subsidies do not allow world's food/grain prices to stabilize at a natural point. This makes it extraordinarily hard for any verdant area of Africa to grow crops for export--something that would foster trade and generate revenue.

On the one hand we, figuratively, teach them how to fish by giving aid and crafting development projects, but on the other hand we will not buy their exports because we are subsidizing our industries (farm) or at least keeping trade barriers high so as to ensure that Africa cannot have access to our markets.

Yes I realize that there is more to it than that and that this is but a small slice of a larger problem, but it is almost criminal.

meadowrun
23rd Nov 2014, 01:31
Sorry but there are tons of export opportunities within the continent based on the amount of food aid having to be poured in. There are markets available within shorter distances.

Capetonian
23rd Nov 2014, 07:51
I do appreciate that these kids are born into a total mess and it's not their fault and they deserve better and kumbaya ......... but I've come to the conclusion, reluctantly and sadly, that there's sod all we can do about it, that interfering makes it worse, and that it's the way it's meant to be. Walk away.

obgraham
23rd Nov 2014, 08:35
Cape, I don't find anything to object to in what you say.

However, if the famous Donne quote that "Any Man's death diminishes me because I am involved in Mankind" has any relevance to any individual, then the situation in Africa truly diminishes all of us. We Westerners have had far too much to do with causing it.

So when we say there is "sod all we can do about it", that should be with great sadness.

Andu
23rd Nov 2014, 08:37
Some might not be aware that Ethiopia continued to export food throughout the Bob Geldorf Bandaid extravaganza of the 1980s. All sorts of things happened during the relief effort, not always to the advantage of the people who were starving.

But a lot of companies supplying the aid made a lot of money, not least the company that supplied the Mercedes trucks. (I understand there's quite a story to be told about that.)

The company that won the contract to operate the ex-Australian Air Force C130 supplied for 'free' by Australia was paid six million dollars - by the Australian taxpayer. It flew one sortie before going unserviceable, and that trip was filled more with media crews than food. This, ($6 million for bugger all result), despite the fact that a large group of RAAF ex-C130 crews - (over 70) - offered their services for free - but they wanted to take boring stuff like a spare engine, trained and experienced engineering staff and other spare parts, which didn't fit the 'narrative' of the then Australian government.

Oh, a guess what brand that government was?

Capetonian
23rd Nov 2014, 08:47
obgraham :
So when we say there is "sod all we can do about it", that should be with great sadness. Indeed, and I've edited my post to say that. Thank you for the apposite reminder. I'm afraid that when one spends a lot of time in Africa and reading/watching African affairs, one becomes inured and hardened to it all.

I have previously in similar discussions quoted a book by a Zambian economist with the surname of Moyo (very common in central Africa) in which she spells out why aid has done more harm than good. I can't remember her full name or that of the book although I have the book (not here) and my memory doesn't function properly before my second cup of tea. Well worth reading.

OFSO
23rd Nov 2014, 09:47
We know a charming and educated young man of African origin living in London. In his twenties, he has fathered about (because he doesn't know exactly) five children, for whom he cares emotionally but doesn't support financially. He's a nice guy but I can only say, genetically preprogrammed or predisposed to produce as many descendants as possible. His friends, he says, are doing much the same.

If he didn't have the welfare state to support his offspring, probably 90% would die, and hence the idea of producing as many offspring as possible makes very good sense.

However where money is available (either in the UK or Africa) to keep a far larger number, or all, of those offspring alive, we are heading for disaster.

The solution is obvious. Either force them (how ?) to keep the birthrate down and help them, or don't bother controlling the number of births, and leave them alone. Or supply the leaders of the African states with ever larger and more effective weapons so they can kill each other.

(Oh sorry, the USA, UK, France etc are already doing that).

airship
23rd Nov 2014, 16:35
Numbers in the picture below are "births per woman":

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Countriesbyfertilityrate.svg/800px-Countriesbyfertilityrate.svg.png

Selected excerpts of current fertility rates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertil ity_rate#Countries) (births per woman) across the globe:

World average = 2.5

EU average = 1.55, notably:
Poland = 1.33 (why are they still coming to the UK?!)
Germany and Austria = 1.43 (I could say something but I won't!)
UK = 1.9 (what would that be without immigration?!)
France = 2.08 (100% due to north Africans, oh really?!)

USA = 2.01 (entirely due to illegal immigrants, oh really?!)
Canada = 1.59
Australia = 1.77
New Zealand = 2.05
Russia = 1.61 (risk of Caucasion red hordes invading us receding...?!)

Singapore = 0.8
India = 2.51
China = 1.7 (risk of Asiatic red hordes invading us receding...?!)
Bangladesh = 2.45
Nigeria = 5.25

What is this discussion really about anyway? I'd favour the complete and mass emigration of all human-beings out from Africa to the rest of the World. And declaring the whole of the African continent a natural reserve. Forever. Allowing the other monkeys their chance in a few million years once the rest of us have been put out of our miseries... :)

tony draper
23rd Nov 2014, 18:06
Not necessarily a Monkey,give summat else a chance, perhaps something without a opposable thumb,they might not be as stroppy,
Perhaps th Elephant they have a prehensile trunk wi things near as good as fingers on the end.
:rolleyes:

OFSO
23rd Nov 2014, 19:41
Perhaps the Elephant they have a prehensile trunk wi things near as good as fingers on the end.

Mr D, you can read how EXACTLY that works out in Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle's scifi novel "Footfall". Spoiler: the human race wins because the aliens who are intelligent elephants are so tied to herd instinct, but it's a damned close-run thing.......

airship
23rd Nov 2014, 20:28
I kind of like the sound of that Admiral. Where the elephants take our place. Presumably the elephants would still have STD (subscriber trunk dialling) if not the Internet. Any PC's wouldn't have mice (they're scary). Non-elephants trying to make a call would always think the phone was out of order because they couldn't hear any (low-frequency) dial tone. Elephant equivalents to Julien Assange would be treated with more respect when saying: "Beware, big ears are everywhere!" Noone would ever be heard to ask "Does my bum look big in this?". And noone would ever complain about dog-crap on the sidewalk...

tony draper
23rd Nov 2014, 22:37
I have that book about the place somewhere Mr OFSO,If I remember correctly I didn't find the alien Ephalents very convincing.I preferred their dinosaur thingy that had thousands of young who all ate each other until there was just one left then that one becomes the mum who had thousands of young who all ate each other ect ect ad infinitum.
Hmmm that might not be a bad idea for Africa.
:rolleyes:

bcgallacher
24th Nov 2014, 12:35
Total African philosophy - If you can't eat it ,burn it ,or f--k it then it is of absolutely no use.

tony draper
24th Nov 2014, 12:57
Solve the problem of hunger if someone would come up wi a recipe for AK47s.:uhoh: