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BadgerGrowler
19th Nov 2014, 18:01
Bit of a strange question.

My partner has a severely disabled daughter, who spends 1 night in a specialist care facility every week.

Last night the father went to this care facility, and started to feed the daughter chocolate buttons - This was against the facilities operating procedures, as he hadn't first cleared it with the nurse in charge. This is standard procedure for any foodstuffs brought in from outside and not provided by the facilities own kitchen.

Ex husband got aggressive, demanding to see the care plan which was refused as daughter is 19 and even my partner doesn't have full access to the care plan due to patient confidentiality.

The care facility then phoned my partner to say what had transpired, but while she was on the phone, another woman (ex husbands new wife) phoned up claiming to be the daughters mother (which she is not) demanding to know what is in the care plan, and she is allowed chocolate buttons.

We then have a phone call this evening from the facility again this woman is claiming to be my partner and the daughters mum. Fortunately the facility recognised that it wasn't my partner and terminated the call.

We have asked the facility to draw up an incident report on the matter of deception.

What legal avenues are open to my partner and I. Is this a legal matter for the police or a civil matter?

Trying to gain information from deception is pretty serious? :confused:

This would under U.K./English law

ExXB
19th Nov 2014, 18:14
Talk to the police or a lawyer. Do not depend on advice from an internet site (except this comment)

mad_jock
19th Nov 2014, 18:35
its not the chocolate buttons its trying to obtain medical information by duress.

But there is no evidence who it is, so not a lot can be done about it.

G-CPTN
19th Nov 2014, 18:40
a gift of chocolate buttons sounds just too petty/paranoid
That is not the issue - the issue is impersonating another person.

I believe this action (though not this specific instance) resulted in the suicide of a nurse:-
Jacintha Saldanha: Kate Middleton hoax call nurse 'left suicide note criticising senior hospital staff' | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2247848/Jacintha-Saldanha-Kate-Middleton-hoax-nurse-left-suicide-note-criticising-senior-hospital-staff.html)

BadgerGrowler
19th Nov 2014, 18:42
Step Daughter is gastronomy fed (tube direct into her stomach), She can eat pureed and soft foods, but not enough to get any nutritional gain.

A month previous, ex husband brought in a McDonalds Happy meal and proceeded to feed her that. :ugh:

I'm more concerned about somebody ringing up the care facility and claiming to be my partner, to garner information.

Fantome
19th Nov 2014, 19:01
BG . . .. hope you can get some sensible answers . .. terrible situation to be in

(by the way ,. . .. .. and totally unrelated to your chief concern . .
on the semantics of impersonation . . .. it is
impossible to impersonate anyone but another person . .
get my drift? . . . . )

Flying Lawyer
19th Nov 2014, 19:03
BadgerGrowler
daughter is 19 and even my partner doesn't have full access to the care plan due to patient confidentiality.

I'm sorry that your partner's daughter is severely disabled but you have said nothing which suggests that the young lady does not have the mental capacity to make her own decisions.
If she does, then it is her decision - not yours nor your partner's - what, if anything, she wishes to do about what has happened and who, if anyone, may be told what is in her care plan.

Involving lawyers should be a last resort.

Police??
Would the daughter be content for the police to investigate her father and his new wife, or would that cause her further distress?
(Assuming the police were prepared to become involved.)
Would she wish to see anyone prosecuted?
(If any offence has been committed / if there is enough evidence to prosecute.)

FL

ian16th
19th Nov 2014, 19:12
Possibly a stupid question from a long term ex-pat, but does the UK still have Citizens Advice Bureau's that could assist?

BadgerGrowler
19th Nov 2014, 19:24
Until the father got remarried - He didn't see his daughter for 4 years, despite no restrictions in place and him having full access to the Wheelchair accessible vehicle If he didn't want to stay in the house.. Suddenly he is re-married, and spends 1hour per week with her.

Although she is 19 years old, her capacity is that off a 6-9 month old baby.

She can make basic choices and has a clearly defined YES or NO, when she is happy or unhappy through hand signals. (Arm covering face means No, hands banging on wheelchair is Yes)

Social Services say she cant make her own choices, The law say's that she can, and independent specialists who have worked with her say she can make her own basic choices.

We went down the legal route 3 months ago to get a guardianship, but the lawyer says that 9 out 10 cases end in failure as the judiciary don't like making those decisions.

It's a legal minefield.

Flying Lawyer
19th Nov 2014, 19:34
Your partner could start by discussing the matter with the hospital as already suggested by henry-crun and then, if it becomes necessary, take it stage by stage - always keeping a sense of proportion.

BadgerGrowler
19th Nov 2014, 20:00
Thanks for all your advice :ok:

I'm going to arrange a meeting tomorrow with the hospital, and take it from there.

421dog
19th Nov 2014, 20:13
Why involve some poor badly disabled girl in the midst of a dispute between a bunch of ostensible adults who are unable to behave as such.

Seriously, just what information about some poor kid in a nursing home is important enough to merit suing someone?

If a Fvcking Happy Meal or some chocolate makes this kid and her father mutually happy, why not? Is she going to recover if it is withheld?

You, sir, need to seriously reexamine why this p1sses you off. I strongly suspect that it has a lot more to do about your inability to control your "partner's" ex husband than it does with any concern for the kid.

Oh, and it's a "Gastrostomy"

Gastronomy was Julia Child's way in life.

Keep that in mind when you call the lawyer, because he probably won't have much more of a clue than you seem to have.

No charge...

VP959
19th Nov 2014, 20:25
Why involve some poor badly disabled girl in the midst of a dispute between a bunch of ostensible adults who are unable to behave as such.

Seriously, just what information about some poor kid in a nursing home is important enough to merit suing someone?

If a Fvcking Happy Meal or some chocolate makes this kid and her father mutually happy, why not? Is she going to recover if it is withheld?

You, sir, need to seriously reexamine why this p1sses you off. I strongly suspect that it has a lot more to do about your inability to control your "partner's" ex husband than it does with any concern for the kid.

Reading all the posts, it seems more serious than this.

The young lady is being fed by a gastronomy tube, which makes eating solid food potentially harmful, to the extent of being possibly dangerous, perhaps even life-threatening if she has a badly impaired swallowing reflex.

The issue seems to be one of extreme ignorance, coupled with what seems to be a misguided desire to make up for years of having paid no attention to his daughter.

Hopefully the hospital can intervene to advise on the risks that feeding solid foods to someone who is physically and mentally impaired to this degree presents, and act as arbitrators to resolve some of the issues.

alicopter
19th Nov 2014, 20:33
Hi. As the son of divorced parents who have been at each other's throat for many years through violent actions and words... directly or by endless legal battles... and still affected pschycologicaly by it all... I'd say forget it... Think of the girl and act intelligently... Have an adult like talk between yourselves and relativise!!!!!!

421dog
19th Nov 2014, 20:39
A gastrostomy tube in and of itself, in no way impairs the ability to eat (trust me on this, I put in 5-10 each week)

The question of the danger of eating relates more to risk/benefit ratios when considering the whole person.

If this is a girl that has had a sh1tty first 19 years, and can find some pleasure, despite her severe debility, in a burger, fries, and a bit of chocolate, the real risk of aspiration (not very high, I suspect, in a patient that has lived 19 years without an esophageal diversion) is much lower than the potential gain to her happiness despite the small risk of having a chunk of food, or a little chocolate syrup go down the wrong pipe.

I don't know her parents, but if one of them can, equally, have some quality time with her by assuming this small risk, it sure seems worth it.

Flying Lawyer
19th Nov 2014, 21:58
VP959
..... to the extent of being possibly dangerous, perhaps even life-threatening If that is the position in relation to this patient then the doctor(s) will say so.

It is very clear what Badger regards as the important issues:

Impersonating another person - Legal or Not? We have asked the facility to draw up an incident report on the matter of deception.
Trying to gain information from deception is pretty serious? (The caller wanted to find out if the patient's care plan allowed her to have chocolate buttons.) I'm more concerned about somebody ringing up the care facility and claiming to be my partner, to garner information.

We went down the legal route 3 months ago to get a guardianship, but the lawyer says that 9 out 10 cases end in failure as the judiciary don't like making those decisions.I have no idea whether the claimed 'failure' rate is accurate, but I do know that the judiciary will not shirk from making Guardianship orders etc when they are justified on the evidence. The best interests of the person said to lack capacity are of paramount importance in such decisions, and rightly so.
Perhaps the lawyer was gently trying to dissuade his client from pursuing a course of action which on the available evidence he considered highly unlikely to succeed? ("Independent specialists who have worked with her say she can make her own basic choices.")
If Badger and his partner want a second opinion then they should obtain it from specialist Counsel who may/may not agree with the solicitor's assessment.

Reading all the posts, it seems more serious than this.Reading between the lines is just as important as listening to what clients say, and have sometimes convinced themselves, is the whole story.
I deleted a part of what I originally wrote in a previous post and left it as " .... always keeping a sense of proportion".
421dog is more courageous than me. ;)

IBMJunkman
20th Nov 2014, 02:02
Sounds like a challange/response pair of words are needed.

mad_jock
20th Nov 2014, 06:26
Had a similar issue with care plans with my grandad with dementia in a nursing home.

Kendal mint cake and a dram of whisky were the focus of the confusion.

Luckily Bob his GP was just up the road so came in for a dram on his way home and doctored his care plan to include a couple of nips of whisky when grandson visits. And unlimited kendle mint cake and spanish.

He thought it was highly amusing to stop a bloke that has a do not resus, and a 60 second short term memory having a nip while he tells his grandson about D day for the 600th time.

You have to think about the young lass as well, a visit by her dad may be the highlight of the week.

Maybe it would be better to take the sensible third person line and speak to the medics and see if its possible to get it allowed.

Just forget about the stupidity its only going to lead to a lower quality of life for the lass.

The care staff have zero room for movement when it comes to rules as i found out with giving my grandad a nip of whisky and putying on the cantabery choir christmas carols 1985 cd in the middle of april.

But once they have a signature they are more than happy.

Capetonian
20th Nov 2014, 07:09
Had a similar problem with the care home where my mother was before she died. Diagnosed as mildly diabetic was about the least of her medical problems and I was shat on for giving her a few squares of diabetic chocolate by some bullying little apology for a human being.

mad_jock
20th Nov 2014, 08:27
Another one with mine was diet deficiencies iron etc.

So they started putting the old boy on even more pills.

Dad couldn't make it so I turned up to the case meeting type review. When going through it i just said could you not just give him half a can of stout before his bed every couple of days.

Bob thought this was a marvelous plan and as sweetheart stout could be had for 30p a can he was going to put the other old boy on it as well so they could share a can every other day.

Think the pair of them were on half a can a night for the next year or so until they kicked the bucket. The head care woman was worried they were developing a habit and kept trying to stop it miserable old cow.

BadgerGrowler
20th Nov 2014, 10:40
Why involve some poor badly disabled girl in the midst of a dispute between a bunch of ostensible adults who are unable to behave as such.

Seriously, just what information about some poor kid in a nursing home is important enough to merit suing someone?
421DOG
If a Fvcking Happy Meal or some chocolate makes this kid and her father mutually happy, why not? Is she going to recover if it is withheld?

You, sir, need to seriously reexamine why this p1sses you off. I strongly suspect that it has a lot more to do about your inability to control your "partner's" ex husband than it does with any concern for the kid.

Oh, and it's a "Gastrostomy"

Gastronomy was Julia Child's way in life.

Keep that in mind when you call the lawyer, because he probably won't have much more of a clue than you seem to have.

No charge...


It may be only a happy meal.

But the specialists recommendation, is that only pureed or soft foods can given. Last time I checked, a Happy Meal does not fall into those categories especially the fries.

My Step Daughter is at risk of aspiration if those guidelines aren't followed,due to a particular poor gag reflex. What makes this whole situation worse is, that her father is a fully qualified nurse, who in the past has worked with adults with learning difficulties.

What p1sses me off, is the fact that somebody phoned up, claiming to be her mother (Not step mother) and wanting to gain information for what ever purpose.

That is deception, fraud and morally wrong which ever way you look at it.


For the record.
My partner and I have never stopped the father in visiting. He chooses to do the 1hour per week, and before that the self imposed exile.

cockney steve
20th Nov 2014, 12:59
I have a relative who is ostensibly my brother...rumour has always had it that he was a Grudge-baby (next door's son had it in for my old man) :O However, the fact is, he's a few cards short of a full deck and has lived in a sheltered /foster / care environment all his life.
He has no sense of a satiated appetite and will quite happily gorge half a dozen marsbars at a time. He is now at the stage where eventhe oversize shops cannot supply clothes to fit his vast waistline.
He knows he *shouldn't* trough, but , as his older sister says, he has little in life, so if he wants to eat himself to a happy death, why stop him.
Icannot argue with that pragmatic approach.

It's like the old joke about giving up good food fine wines, women and cigars you don't live longer,it just seems like it!

to the OP.
But the specialists recommendation, is that only pureed or soft foods can given. It is not an imperative, decree or warning

It is a "duty of care, backside-covering "we think"..".Twist it how you will, It's an opinion,-considered,advised and educated, maybe, but still just that, an opinion. Probably clouded by clinical and administrative convenience issues.

Unless the patient is a total vegetable (Not the case here) They will have learned the risks of eating solids. If the "pain exceeds the gain" the person will decline the stuff her father is OFFERING....If he is forcing it down her throat, that would be a different issue.

With 421 dog on this. the staff seem capable of discerning who'se who. like it or lump it, father has rights too. just 'cos it gets up your nose (perhaps he's had an epiphany as a result of his new relationship?) doesn't mean he cannot ask the medics or staff to justify their stance Suck it up! It's her life, not yours you create kids, you don't own them and they owe you nothing.

mad_jock
20th Nov 2014, 15:56
soft foods can given

err we are talking about chocolate buttons here?

The ones that if you give them to kids after about ten seconds in their hands they get chocolate everywhere?

The ones that are such a size they are not an issue giving them to small children?

The ones that melt in your mouth as soon as they touch your tongue?

The ones that some idiots give there 18 month old kids when they want them to have fillings in all their baby teeth?

We aren't talking lumps of yorkie bar here.

To me it seems more like a pissing contest between two nurses.

Lonewolf_50
20th Nov 2014, 16:12
To me it seems more like a pissing contest between two nurses.
That may have been where it started, but the question of falsely presenting one's self as "mother" of a child when another person is the mother is worth addressing if both the mother and step mother are going to interact with the child at a place where third parties are providing the bulk of the care.
As noted above, it appears that about four adults need to get together over a coffee and discuss this child's future welfare like adults, with the focus being agreements on who (the child) is the important one in this matter.

mad_jock
20th Nov 2014, 16:18
Well said, and I agree completely.

BadgerGrowler
20th Nov 2014, 16:44
Just to clarify.

No problem with the chocolate buttons, provided they are broken into quarters, and they are placed into the side of the mouth.

The respite facility rules state that any food brought in by patients relatives must be first checked in with the Nurse in Charge/ Senior support worker

My step daughter spends 1 night per week at the facility, the rest of the time she is cared for at our house, which has been adapted with ceiling track hoists and downstairs wet room. (shower)

She has no communications skills, apart from some clicking and squeals, also the hand movements. She is also blind. also suffers from seizures which last anything from 1-2 seconds right up 10-15 minutes At which point we administer Buccal Midazolam, if that fails to work, then we call out the paramedics.

west lakes
20th Nov 2014, 17:20
Just to be a devil's advocate for a question
Was the father's partner trying to find out about the solid food situation to confirm that what he was doing was safe or not?
Perhaps (despite his training) he was suggesting the mother was complaining without merit, so the partner wanted to check who was correct!

probes
20th Nov 2014, 17:43
What p1sses me off, is the fact that somebody phoned up, claiming to be her mother (Not step mother) and wanting to gain information for what ever purpose.
That is deception, fraud and morally wrong which ever way you look at it.
even that is not so black-and-white, I'm afraid. If they wanted information and there was no other way - well, then the intention was not impersonating. She might have thought a stepmother won't be given the information.

But, BG, I'm truly impressed by you doing that much for a stepdaughter. Not many men would for their own flesh and blood.

Otherwise, what Mr. Wolf said - "get together over a coffee and discuss this child's future welfare."