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racedo
15th Nov 2014, 22:29
Top London hotel stops selling alcohol because 'owner does not want to make profit from it' - Home News - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/top-london-hotel-stops-selling-alcohol-because-owner-does-not-want-to-make-profit-from-it-9863216.html)

Seems Hotel has decided that it will no longer sell Alcohol or Pork products......

Give it a year and watch the For Sale signs going up.

They media are quoting "TOP" London Hotel but never heard of it.

mixture
15th Nov 2014, 22:48
Given its London, I doubt they were making that much money from alcohol or pork given the substantial number of other options.

An unusual decision, but all one really needs from a hotel in a large city is a comfy bed and a good night's sleep .... the remainder of a traveller's subsistence can usually be sourced off-site, and is usually cheaper and of better quality than what a hotel would charge/provide.

G-CPTN
15th Nov 2014, 22:55
London's Bermondsey Square Hotel bought out by Muslim multi-millionaire | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835406/Welcome-Hotel-Sharia-No-alcohol-English-breakfasts-trendy-venue-bought-Muslim-multi-millionaire.html)

4mastacker
15th Nov 2014, 22:55
They haven't changed their menu yet.

Bermondsey Square Hotel breakfast menu (http://www.bermondseysquarehotel.co.uk/upload/pdf/breakfast-menu-2014.pdf)

mad_jock
15th Nov 2014, 22:59
yawn who cares

Do anyone know if they have a crew rate?

Gertrude the Wombat
15th Nov 2014, 23:29
Once Upon A Time similar ridicule was heaped on the tiny number of pubs which dared to designate just one of their bars as "no smoking".

galaxy flyer
15th Nov 2014, 23:51
Some how a "no alcohol" pub isn't quite right.

GF

Tankertrashnav
16th Nov 2014, 00:07
Never heard of a no pork rule, but most towns of any decent size in England used to have a "temperance hotel" where no alcohol was sold.

Having tried to get some sleep in a hotel in Oxford recently where the drunks coming out the bar till 1am seemed to be obliged to stand in the street outside screaming obscenities for 15 minutes before going home, I'd stay in a temperance hotel if any still existed :*

Somehow dont think I'd be able to afford the one in the OP though!

onemac
16th Nov 2014, 00:55
There was a very popular pub in my home town and it was bought by a chap very successful in the pub trade. He tried to implement a 'no smoking' ban before it came into being. The pub is offices now. :rolleyes:

Al

con-pilot
16th Nov 2014, 03:20
Once Upon A Time similar ridicule was heaped on the tiny number of pubs which dared to designate just one of their bars as "no smoking".

That was just the first nail into the coffin of a country that was once considered 'Great'.

Sadly it is not 'Great' not any more. :(


Thanks to uber PC liberal (socialists) like you.

fitliker
16th Nov 2014, 04:18
Will they ban the high class escorts (male and female ) that make a fortune servicing those very expensive Ho-tels ?

Andu
16th Nov 2014, 05:10
Is there a contest here to see how many posts can be made without mentioning the elephant in the room - the "M" word?

unstable load
16th Nov 2014, 05:37
Try to keep up, Andu......:p
See post #3

Fliegenmong
16th Nov 2014, 05:44
This is simple isn't it? Don't stay there! :rolleyes:

Or better, send managment an email stating that you are offended by such policies, and demand that my religious right to consume alcohol and pork be accepted.....:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

mikedreamer787
16th Nov 2014, 05:46
I'm surprised the 'M' minority component of the UK populace hasn't already imposed more of this bullshit on pubs in England.

It's just the start of the 'haraming' of all things near and dear I think, and will happen with barely a whimper.

sitigeltfel
16th Nov 2014, 06:04
That was just the first nail into the coffin of a country that was once considered 'Great'.

Sadly it is not 'Great' not any more.

You are misinterpreting the meaning of "Great" in the title. It means Great in size, not in stature.

mikedreamer787
16th Nov 2014, 06:08
I think we all know what context con-pilot meant Mr fel. :}

tdracer
16th Nov 2014, 07:05
There are several items that come into play when I'm selecting accommodations while on travel. Of course price matters, as does the quality of the accommodations (mainly clean and comfortable). Quite frankly, being able to obtain booze or pork products "on premises" isn't typically a big deal (although complementary evening 'social hours' with free alcohol drinks and snacks generally score highly :D).
I lived in predominately Muslim Indonesia for ~ a year - pork products were few and far between but I didn't miss them much (pretty good simulations made of beef), while alcohol was readily available. While I'd probably avoid a London hotel that banned alcohol and pork on 'general principle', if I was booked there I doubt it would really bother me much.
On the other hand, I doubt even the most devout Muslim is dumb enough to believe an 'alcohol free' pub would work. :ugh:

SpringHeeledJack
16th Nov 2014, 07:36
I thought that this 'Top London hotel' was going to be one of the well known ones in and around London W1, but no, it's in a relative backwater in location terms. I applaud the new owner in wanting to uphold his religious beliefs, but would frown upon the fact that he is adamant in wanting to put a square peg into a round hole. There might be discriminatory legal action in his near future I suspectů.


SHJ

Espada III
16th Nov 2014, 07:38
Not sure I understand the hoo haa. There are loads of Kosher hotels around the world and no ond complains about lack of pig or sea food. Doesn't seem to harm business. Clearly many cater for a purely Jewish trade but others are more mainstream.

I admire this businessman for having the moral scruples not to make money from things which are forbidden to him.

Capetonian
16th Nov 2014, 08:50
I admire this businessman for having the moral scruples not to make money from things which are forbidden to him. So would I if I felt this were the motivation. As it is, I think it's about making a statement.

When in a Muslim country I abide by their rules and have done so frequently and enjoyed my stays. When in a secular or Christian country I would strenuously avoid a hotel that practises Muslim law unless of course it caters exclusively for Muslims in which case I would have no interest in, or reason for, staying there, any more than in a hotel that catered exclusively for Christians, Jains, Jews, JWs, or any other cult/sect/religion.

The press report, and I note it was the DM, says this hotel has few Muslim clients, so either they have an agenda to target that section of the community, or as someone else said, the 'for sale/to rent' signs will be up before very long.

bugged on the right
16th Nov 2014, 09:58
I really can't see much possibility here, the wealthy Muslims come to London to get up to all the naughty business prohibited in their own countries. Any westerner would be utterly immobilised without bacon for breakfast in a hotel so that really leaves the bearded, nightshirt wearing loonies who dance in the streets while burning flags. Maybe the place has had it's entertainment system rewired so the spooks can keep an eye.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
16th Nov 2014, 10:29
I wouldn't stay there. While it's true alcohol and an evening meal can be found better and cheaper in London outside hotels, I'd miss my bacon at breakfast!

VP959
16th Nov 2014, 11:04
Bit of a fuss over nothing, isn't it?

We've had vegetarian restaurants for years.

We've also had loads of hotels that don't serve alcohol for years.

I used to regularly stay at a place just outside London,when visiting London, that was run by the Quakers. Quite one of the most quiet and restful places I ever stayed, with a fascinating history and run by some very nice people (and I'm not a Quaker).

There was a small hotel near where I used to live that was run as a Christian hotel, by a couple who were Plymouth Brethren. They had some pretty restrictive rules on who was allowed to stay, and they included being shown a marriage certificate before allowing a couple to share a room and not allowing alcohol on the premises.

If this chap wants to run a Muslim Hotel than I can't see what the fuss is about, personally. It's a free market and people can choose where they want to stay and what restrictions they want to accept.

mad_jock
16th Nov 2014, 11:26
If he is going to go the whole hog and get a charcoal grill in and do proper arab food. I would be well up for staying there.

Haven't had Foul for breakfast in years.

Tankertrashnav
16th Nov 2014, 11:26
Not sure I understand the hoo haa. There are loads of Kosher hotels around the world and no ond complains about lack of pig or sea food. Doesn't seem to harm business. Clearly many cater for a purely Jewish trade but others are more mainstream.

If you dont understand the hoohaa you have misunderstood the zeitgeist. Were JB around in the 1930s it would have been full of references to Jewboys, the "chosen people" etc. Now of course, where every Muslim is a terrorist, Islam is the chosen target. People seemed to get terribly exercised about the Muslim avoidance of pork, which you rightly point out is matched by the Jews, but attracts little attention.

As several more enlightened posters have pointed out , this is a private business and as long as he stays within the law he can basically sell what he likes in his hotel, similarly punters can choose to stay elsewhere if they like. No discrimination, no harm done, no story, basically

Mechta
16th Nov 2014, 11:59
Its the owner's 'trainset', let him do what he likes.

Provided he doesn't mislead people with terms like 'Full English Breakfast' or 'Bar on premises', then what is the problem? If there is a sufficiently large niche market to be exploited, he will thrive, if not then he may be forced to sell or accept the fact that he needs to cater for a wider clientele. Personally I reckon there are enough people who share his views, that in a city the size of London, they will seek him out to be sure they are not wondering if every glass, piece of crockery and cooking utensil has recently contained either pork or alcohol.

Gertrude the Wombat
16th Nov 2014, 12:20
I admire this businessman for having the moral scruples not to make money from things which are forbidden to him.
Sat down at a caff in Turkey. Ordered beer, as we had done at the same caff a few days earlier.

"Sorry, no beer on Fridays."

Move to caff next door. Ordered beer. Got served.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
16th Nov 2014, 13:24
where every Muslim is a terrorist, Islam is the chosen target

There are a long list of reasons to object to muslims other than terrorists, total lack of gender and sectarian equality being two.

No terrorists in Rotherham, or Birmingham, or Tower Hamlets.

Or Luton, or Bradford, or..............................

PTT
16th Nov 2014, 13:39
There are a long list of reasons to object to Islamists other than terrorists, total lack of gender and sectarian equality being two.Fixed that for you. There are plenty of Muslims who have no problem at all with gender or sectarian equality.

On topic, I'll not be staying at that hotel. Bacon and beer are too important!

radeng
16th Nov 2014, 13:54
I wonder if said hotel has any prohibition on making money from gay people staying in one room together?

Just as much against their laws....

Fox3WheresMyBanana
16th Nov 2014, 14:28
Did not need fixing, thank you PTT.
Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html)
http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1696&context=iclr

West Coast
16th Nov 2014, 15:05
As several more enlightened posters have pointed out , this is a private business and as long as he stays within the law he can basically sell what he likes in his hotel, similarly punters can choose to stay elsewhere if they like. No discrimination, no harm done, no story, basically

I see it more as a barometer of where the UK is heading.

Dushan
16th Nov 2014, 15:38
Fixed that for you. There are plenty of Muslims who have no problem at all with gender or sectarian inequality.

On topic, I'll not be staying at that hotel. Bacon and beer are too important!

Fixed it for you.

Tankertrashnav
16th Nov 2014, 15:45
I wonder if said hotel has any prohibition on making money from gay people staying in one room together?

Well if they do they will be in trouble with British laws. A couple who own a guesthouse in Marazion, Cornwall refused to accept a booking for a double room from two homosexual men some time back. They were taken to court, convicted and lost their appeal at the Supreme Court. This hotel would be subject to the same anti-discrimination laws.

Marazion gay guest house row couple lose Supreme Court fight | The Cornishman (http://www.cornishman.co.uk/Marazion-gay-guest-house-row-couple-lost-Supreme/story-20227646-detail/story.html)

a propos of absolutely nothing I bought an old Mercedes 230E estate from that bloke once. Nice car!

Fox, wanting Sharia law in the UK is mainly a manifestation of a desire among Muslims to have a simple and effective way of settling civil disputes within their own communities. If both parties agree it is fairly similar to our systems of arbitration which avoid lengthy legal bickering and attendant high legal fees. It does not replace English (or Scottish) criminal & civil law which all Muslims remain subject to, whether or not they choose to use Sharia courts to settle internal disputes.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
16th Nov 2014, 16:31
http://www.icmresearch.com/pdfs/2006_february_sunday_telegraph_muslims_poll.pdf

TTN - the original survey is above. It was quite specific about full Sharia, not just civil panels.

20% also expressed some sympathy with the 7/7 bombers, and 1 in 6 Muslim men think it is right to exercise violence towards those deemed to have insulted Islam.

PTT
16th Nov 2014, 16:35
http://www.icmresearch.com/pdfs/2006_february_sunday_telegraph_muslims_poll.pdf

TTN - the original survey is above. It was quite specific about full Sharia, not just civil panels.It's not specific at all. This is the question from the poll:
"Would you support or oppose there being areas of Britain which are pre-dominantly Muslim and in which Sharia law is introduced?"
That does not specify anything, really.
20% also expressed some sympathy with the 7/7 bombers.Again, this was the question: Irrespective of whether you think the London bombings were justified or not, do you personally have any sympathy with the feelings and motives of those who carried out the attacks?Understanding why someone did something is not the same as thinking that they did the right thing.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
16th Nov 2014, 16:44
Survey's finding of growing anger in the Islamic community are described as 'alarming' by leading Muslim Labour MP - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510865/Surveys-finding-of-growing-anger-in-the-Islamic-community-are-described-as-alarming-by-leading-Muslim-Labour-MP.html)

Follow up article,:The Muslim Council of Britain does not seem to be in any doubt that full Sharia was what was meant. I have not read of any comments on this survey, by muslims or anyone else, that have questioned its meaning.

PTT
16th Nov 2014, 16:47
From your linked article:
four in five say they still want to live in and accept Western society. More than nine in 10 say they feel personally "loyal" to Britain.
It's worth noting the poll is 8 years old.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
16th Nov 2014, 16:53
I noted the age of the Poll too. The only newer one is from 2007.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf

From which:

59% of Muslims would prefer to live
under British law, compared to 28%
who would prefer to live under sharia
law. 37% of 16-24 year olds prefer sharia
compared to 17% of 55+ year olds.

Which seems quite specific.

Wonder why nobody's done any more polls?

update: found one more, also from 2007
via: http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/society/religion/survey+government+hasnt+told+truth+about+77/545847.html
Though hopefully this one's flaky. It states that 24% of muslims think the British Security Services were in some with involved with 7/7, and 23% thought the muslims identified as the bombers were not actually the ones responsible.

Krystal n chips
16th Nov 2014, 18:01
As this is London, have you all got your Oyster cards for the moral outrage bus...which now seems to be full....as usual..... once the word Muslim is mentioned.

However, on a lighter note, if you look at the menu, it says "Fresh local produce".....now who would have thunk Bermondsey is now prime agricultural land.

PTT
16th Nov 2014, 18:13
Fox3WheresMyBanana - only one year difference. It'd be interesting to see what sampling techniques were used in each poll in order to try to ascertain how the differences came about.

A quote from the executive summary of the policyexchange poll:
However, there is also considerable diversity amongst Muslims, with many adopting a more secular approach to their religion. The majority of Muslims feel they have as much, if not more, in common with non-Muslims in Britain as with Muslims abroad. There is clearly a conflict within
British Islam between a moderate majority that accepts the norms of Western democracy and a growing minority that does not. For these reasons, we should be wary of treating the entire Muslim population as a monolith with special needs that are different to the rest of the population.

One commenter in the Channel 4 poll makes the sound point (in a roundabout manner) that there is no control group against which to measure the results:
"I am a white female atheist and I don't believe the government has told us the whole truth about the 7/7 bombings. I don't believe the conspiracy theories either.

So, for this survey you could also have asked Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and atheists what they thought. I'd be prepared to bet that the answer to the question 'has the government told the truth about 7/7' would be broadly similar in all of those."

West Coast
16th Nov 2014, 18:42
PTT

Weren't you the one admonishing me to keep another thread on topic? From a no alcohol or pork hotel to a white female atheist. I have no issue to thread drift, but I do with hypocrisy.

PTT
16th Nov 2014, 18:57
The comment is on topic as it refers to the validity of the polls Fox3 was using to back up his assertion that there are plenty of reasons to object to Muslims, which itself a reaction to the "islamophobes" call. I agree with his assertion with respect to Islamists but not to Muslims in general. If you were following the topic instead of cyberstalking you'd know that, of course ;)

West Coast
16th Nov 2014, 19:06
Feel free to drift off topic, you've done a good job of it so far.

Bronx
17th Nov 2014, 00:07
Feel free to drift off topic

What's the topic?

Discussing whether a hotel owner should be entitled not to serve alcohol and pork?
Jewish restaurants/delis have declined to sell pork for years without complaint or stupid outrage.

Or is it yet another thread for the extreme right wing posters to condemn Muslims and make sweeping generalizations about them?

galaxy flyer
17th Nov 2014, 00:39
Bronx,

That might be true in NYC, but elsewhere, not so much. Besides Jews haven't been beheading people, murdering them with suicide bombers, killing indiscriminately. Heck, they kill their own by the train load. That does make a difference.

GF

perthsaint
17th Nov 2014, 00:48
Jews haven't been killing indiscriminately?

That will come as a bit of a surprise to the people of Palestine.

ChristiaanJ
17th Nov 2014, 01:40
tdracer,
"pork products were few and far between"
Sorry to hear babi pangang (sp?) has been banned...

West Coast
17th Nov 2014, 01:51
You're checking a lot of boxes in relatively few posts Perth.

svhar
17th Nov 2014, 02:22
I can't see the problem. The owner decides what services he wants to provide in his establishment.

Like an owner of a pub should be allowed to decide whether smoking is allowed or not in his own property.

galaxy flyer
17th Nov 2014, 02:41
Oh, you missed the news about indiscriminate rocket attacks on Israel, I see.

GF

tdracer
17th Nov 2014, 03:02
Sorry to hear babi pangang (sp?) has been banned...
Not banned, but relatively hard to find (especially in the area of Java that I lived). I never cared much for Pizza Hut until I lived in Indonesia - then it became a taste of home :E. At least in the USA, most of the meat pizza toppings are pork based (pepperoni, Canadian Bacon, Ham, etc.) - in Indonesia those same toppings were made from beef instead of pork.
In Bali it's mainly Hindu/Buddhist and pork products were readily available (interestingly so was beef - apparently catering to the tourists ranked highly).
Interestingly, I was in Jakarta last year and stayed a couple nights at the Marriott. They had the most amazing breakfast buffet I'd ever seen - including pretty much every pork product I'd ever heard of (all clearly labeled as 'pork' with a pig symbol).

bcgallacher
17th Nov 2014, 04:45
I do not know the clientele that this gentleman wishes to cater for - it is certainly not his wealthy Middle Eastern co religionists as they come to London to enjoy what they in theory cannot obtain at home. Basically they come to get pissed,laid and to gamble.If this chap wants to run the Islamic equivalent of a Salvation Army hostel good luck to him but I hope he has deep pockets.

Metro man
17th Nov 2014, 07:33
There was a recent case in Cairns, Australia of a Nando's restaurant refusing to serve pork, so no chicken bacon burgers. People go into a franchise expecting to enjoy the same standards as any other branch, so the owner should either fit in with the specifications or find another franchise which fits in with his beliefs.

Of course he is free to open an independent halal chicken restaurant and there are many in Sydney catering to the Lebanese in the western suburbs. I have eaten in a few of these and go in knowing that pork is not available, if I go into a kosher restaurant I know that cheese burgers won't be available as mixing meat and dairy isn't allowed.

Provided the hotel in question operates as in independent entity then it's up to the owner to decide on his policies, where as if he wants to be part of a brand he should comply with the rule book. The free market will decide if he succeeds or fails.

Note that the three main Middle East airlines serve alcohol as that's what the market wants. Saudi Arabian Airlines and Kuwait Airways are dry and a fraction of the size of EK, EY and QR.

4mastacker
17th Nov 2014, 07:59
K n C wrote:
However, on a lighter note, if you look at the menu, it says "Fresh local produce".........now who would have thunk Bermondsey is now prime agricultural land.

Depends if they are growing crops of a ...ahem... herbal nature. ;)

charliegolf
17th Nov 2014, 16:10
Or is it yet another thread for the extreme right wing posters to condemn Muslims and make sweeping generalizations about them?

Well said Bronx: no-one likes to be generalised about!

CG

nonsense
17th Nov 2014, 16:42
... and 1 in 6 Muslim men think it is right to exercise violence towards those deemed to have insulted Islam.
Any woman and 5 in 6 men will happily point out to you that 1 in 6 men of any ethnicity or religion "think it is right to exercise violence" towards those deemed to have insulted them or attempted to interfere with their "right" to exercise violence.

I can't see any problem running accommodation without alcohol or pork.

Flying Lawyer
17th Nov 2014, 19:07
galaxy flyerThat might be true in NYC, but elsewhere, not so much.
It's generally true in London.
There are, of course, some exceptions. Not all Muslims adhere strictly to the teaching of their religion, just as not all Jews or all Christians adhere strictly to theirs.


Besides Jews haven't been beheading people, murdering them with suicide bombers, killing indiscriminately. Heck, they kill their own by the train load. That does make a difference.Part of your assertion is debatable but, even accepting just for this purpose that what you assert is accurate, what has that got to do with whether a hotel owner should be entitled to decline to serve alcohol and/or pork? :confused:

cockney steve
17th Nov 2014, 19:25
Back in the late 60's I was in Dundee. I was drawntowardsa rather grand, but faded "Temperance Hotel"...Booked in and found that it was, indeed, a "rep's hotel" (one develops a nose for them!)
Severalof us had a pot of tea, then went out had a few beers and lurched back . It later became "the Tay Centre hotel" garish paintwork and a lot of overdue modernisation, though they did retain some original features. Did 2 trade-shows a year there for several years.It was licenced as soon as Centre Hotels bought it and occupancy rates were a lot higher. Amazingly, the cobbled crescent roundthe side ,had Gas street-lamps with a stained-glass City crest inthe middle of each lantern-side.
Inexplicably,the local vandals never touched them! though the hotel was a regular target for graffiti.

con-pilot
17th Nov 2014, 19:36
The way I look at this, it is like eating at a vegan restaurant; no meat period.

Not for me personally and Veganism can be compared to a religion, if one has ever met a diehard vegan, they would know what I mean. I know of one vegan that believes that “milk is murder” and she is really serious, in fact she will not eat at any place where meat is being cooked or has been cooked. But she always has been a bit nuts.

Now, if this hotel owner can stay in business with his ‘no pork/no booze’ London hotel restaurant, who knows.

Katamarino
17th Nov 2014, 20:59
Besides Jews haven't been beheading people, murdering them with suicide bombers, killing indiscriminately.

King David Hotel etc?

meadowrun
17th Nov 2014, 23:13
It's his hotel - he can do what he wants.


But let's see him handle refusing rooms to gay couples or refusing to do a same sex wedding cake.

Kinger
18th Nov 2014, 02:49
Surely by having to apply to use the wedding facility you leave yourself open to being declined. The only problem would be giving a reason.
"I have an appointment on that day, sorry" would suffice.