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TBirdFrank
11th Nov 2014, 17:22
The space on the bus he was waiting for was occupied by a buggy - so he had to wait - Awwwww!!!

BBC News - First Bus appeals against wheelchair court ruling (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-30010126)

One minute they want to be treated the same as anyone else - the next they bleat that they have been discriminated against and are humiliated by having to wait their turn!

I'll help anyone, anywhere, anytime - but this whinging lot - No Way!

perthsaint
11th Nov 2014, 17:27
Where does he claim he was humiliated by having to wait his turn?

Andy_S
11th Nov 2014, 17:32
The space on the bus he was waiting for was occupied by a buggy - so he had to wait - Awwwww!!!

A bit harsh. The kids buggy could easily have been moved, but it's mother refused, which strikes me as inconsiderate bordering on selfish. Let's hope she never experiences disability and subsequent reliance on the goodwill of others.

It seems unfair on the bus company, though. I can't see how it was their fault.

victor tango
11th Nov 2014, 17:53
Hope he gets his confidence back so he can spend his 5 grand payout!

Capot
11th Nov 2014, 17:55
Yes, the villain in this, at least as far as we can see from the article, was the woman with her sleeping baby.

Of course she should have moved, and the fact that she felt able to sit there and refuse "because my babee will wake up" is the result of the absurd deference demanded by, and paid to, mothers and babies in the UK.

I have every sympathy for the wheelchair user and the bus company trying to deal with this woman and her ideas about her rights.

wings folded
11th Nov 2014, 17:59
Sorry, TBirdfrank, you have got this upside down.

In a competition for limited spaces on transport, disabled people deserve to be towards the top.

I have got my badge proving my disability. Does it work when I am confronted by a selfish adolescent occupying a seat clearly marked as being reserved for the disabled?

Not very often.

Just recently, a said adolescent was taking up two spaces, one for her and one for her bicycle, and she expected me to help her ease her bicycle out of the confined space when she wanted to alight the train. I had been standing for an hour and a half in the meantime

I awarded her a grumpy old disabled person reaction. She did not care. No in fact she did care, judging from her less than dignified language. She cared a lot, but not in the right direction.

con-pilot
11th Nov 2014, 18:29
Sorry, TBirdfrank, you have got this upside down.


I agree one hundred percent.

This action by the extremely selfish woman is the same as people parking in handicap restricted parking slots when they are not handicapped.

And I guarantee you that if this self-entitled, small minded, selfish bitc, err woman, had to be in a wheelchair, she would scream;

"GET THAT FU<KING PRAM OUT OF MY SPOT!"

The bus driver should have the authority to tell the woman to move the pram or get off the bus.

wings folded
11th Nov 2014, 18:58
The snag is that the bus driver is employed to drive a bus.

He is not employed to be an arbiter of social conflicts between the disabled and the other claimants to proiority.

His task is in no way helped by TBIrd's remark:

One minute they want to be treated the same as anyone else - the next they bleat that they have been discriminated against and are humiliated by having to wait their turn!


Try disability for an day or two, Mr Tbird, then come back and we can discuss the topic.

Yes, disabled people do not want, by and large, concessions beyond reasonable degrees of common decency. They (well I speak only for me) want to be treated normally. I have never bleated about discrimination. When selfish arseholes elect to exercise their rights to be arseholes, and occupy disabled seats whilst of perfectly sound body, I tend to remain standing as in my anecdote above.

In certain enlightened places, to wait in the queue for a taxi is recognised as being difficult for the disabled. So they can jump the queue. Not because they are otherwise humiliated or discriminated against. It is because standing in a queue for someone disabled is fecking painful.

Try it. With the authentic credentials.

rgbrock1
11th Nov 2014, 18:59
The little snot-nosed "adolescent" you referred to wings is unfortunately an example of way too many other snot-nosed adolescents these days. Not all, mind you, but far too many. I also think they are indigenous to the West.

con wrote:

This action by the extremely selfish woman is the same as people parking in handicap restricted parking slots when they are not handicapped.Understood. but I have seen some real doozies in handicap parking spots who really shouldn't be there although they have the "tag" showing that they are "handicapped". I've seen fat old hags hoofing it out of the car, parked in such a space, and beating feat to the ice cream parlor. I've also seen a loadstone park his Harley, also with handicap tags, and then make his way to a restaurant with no apparent impairment whatsoever.

wings folded
11th Nov 2014, 19:10
Mr rock.

Two remarks.

- handicaps are many and varied, and not always visually obvious

- there is a thriving market for disabled badges. People have their car windows coshed and find subsequently that their latest model GPS was left, but the lucrative disabled badge was taken

con-pilot
11th Nov 2014, 19:18
A friend of mine saw two apparently healthy women park in a handicap spot with no handicap sticker/placard.

When he quizzed them about parking in the handicap spot, one of the women looked at him and said; "My friend is very hard of hearing."

Then walked into the store.

Hard to fight logic like that.

As for standing in a queue (line) for any length of time, I canít anymore. So I either wait where I can sit down until there is no queue or change my plans.

rgbrock1
11th Nov 2014, 19:21
wings folded wrote:

handicaps are many and varied, and not always visually obvious

I'm well aware of that wings. As the father of an autistic son I am well aware of that.

wings folded
11th Nov 2014, 19:34
Well, Mr Rock, I am sorry that you have a case of disability in your close family.
Truly.
And I hope that wherever you are, people around you are humane enough to accommodate that disability.
You have my sincere best wishes. I know a bit about disability.

rgbrock1
11th Nov 2014, 19:37
wings:

Your expressed sentiments are noted. And appreciated. My son does very well for himself all things considered. He's not "high" on the autism spectrum (he has Asperger's syndrome) but he is mentally, and emotionally, handicapped nevertheless. He's still my boy and I am very proud of him. And especially after earning a Gold Medal for his State soccer team during the Special Olympics USA 2014 this past Spring.

Thank you sir.

Oh, and no, not everyone accommodates his disability. But those who get a warped kick out of calling him names like "retarded" or "dumb" in my presence usually wind up regretting the name-calling.

wings folded
11th Nov 2014, 19:49
You overlook entirely that distance from the door of the supermarket is not the only criterion.

You are clearly ignorant, so I will help. Have you noticed that disabled spaces are wider than the rest? Could that be to do with the need to open the car door fully? Or do you think you can squeeze into a car door in the usual limited space afforded, when disabled? From a wheelchair perhaps?

Try to think before posting.

Navajo8686
11th Nov 2014, 19:55
Unintended offensive removed.

I actually have a lot of experience of disabilities.

I would suggest that society's intolerance of people with mental health issues far outweighs any discrimination or bigoted behaviours against people with a visible disability (although the 'one armed pilot' thread showed that there plenty on here who are happy to have a pop at visible disabilities).

Capetonian
11th Nov 2014, 20:02
When I was on crutches as a result of an injury, I had to park at an airport, and walking was really difficult and painful. All 4 'disabled' slots were taken by fancy cars, and I'd seen the driver of one walk off, a young and clearly able-bodied man. I shouted at him and got the response : "I'm a f+ing 'urry so f* you mate." Quick word to airport police and I went back 5 minutes later to see, to my immense satisfaction, all four cars clamped!

wings folded
11th Nov 2014, 20:02
Thank you for the removal of your post, but it has the consequence of making the thread very disjointed, It seems now that I was answering somebody else.

So what I said appears not too well reasoned

ASRAAM
11th Nov 2014, 20:09
Ok folks,
Another moral dilemma for you. The local Costa has two toilets, both are single seaters.One has a male and female sign on it,the other a disabled sign.

It's a fairly large Costa and the queue for the abled body toilet gets quite long. Whilst I would hope we all agree a disabled person should take priority on the disabled toilet,what happens when it's empty and the are no disabled people waiting. Should we all avoid using it just in case it's required by a disabled person, even if that means a long wait for the other one.

I'm afraid I take the view that if there's no one waiting I will use it. Does that make me selfish?

Seldomfitforpurpose
11th Nov 2014, 20:21
Not selfish, simply pragmatic, provided of course its a 'shortish' visit :ok:

con-pilot
11th Nov 2014, 20:41
Does that make me selfish?

No, the local Costa is for not providing more toilets.

Personally I have no problem if someone has to use a handicap toilet if it is an emergency, especially if there is a young child involved.

But it is very selfish to use a handicap toilet just because one does not want to wait their turn for the normal toilets. And sadly in my experience that is usually the case.

Capot
11th Nov 2014, 20:51
Disabled toilets are specially equipped for the disabled to use. They are not for the exclusive use of disabled people.

It would, none-the-less, be unkind to occupy one for more than the time required to use a toilet, say up to 3 minutes, or, seeing a disabled person making for it, to race to get there first.

west lakes
11th Nov 2014, 20:53
But what is disabled, is it an obvious disability or a hidden one, should someone who is classed legally as disabled but does not look as though they are or carry a disabled badge or something be barred from a disabled toilet?
Who decides and enforces it?
(p.s. in accordance with the UK Equality Act I'm classed as disabled on 3 counts)(but I don't look or act as though I am)

Though in part sometimes folk just don't think, I attend our local borough Remembrance Day parade year in year out (I actually provide the PA system free of charge).
And every year a few folk in wheel chairs arrive early to position themselves where they can see the ceremony, no issue they have every right.
But every year they position themselves across one or both of the only access paths for the rest of the attendees, which means either other folk can't get into the park where the cenotaph is positioned, or the wheel chair users end up with the more able bodied stood in front of them.
And every year they get upset when asked to leave a clear passage for folk to get past them!

Checkboard
11th Nov 2014, 20:53
The snag is that the bus driver is employed to drive a bus.

He is not employed to be an arbiter of social conflicts between the disabled and the other claimants to proiority.
I think the point is that, as the company representative on the scene, and as the company is required by law to comply with the act - the bus driver's job IS to be the arbiter of those conflicts. :hmm:

Simply kick the pram, wake up the kid, and the woman no longer has an objection. :ok:

Bronx
11th Nov 2014, 21:43
The thread title seems reasonable to me.

The disabled guy suing the bus company was way OTT.

racedo
11th Nov 2014, 21:44
So the lady with the pram should have been just kicked off the bus even though she already has a legal ticket for the journey ?

If the bus was completely and utterly full with all sapces used up should the bus driver then just kick loads of passengers off to accomodate 1 ?

con-pilot
11th Nov 2014, 22:27
The disabled guy suing the bus company was way OTT.

Yes, have to agree with that.

con-pilot
11th Nov 2014, 22:32
So the lady with the pram should have been just kicked off the bus even though she already has a legal ticket for the journey ?


No, all she had to do was move the pram. Nowhere in the story does it state the bus was full.

If the bus was completely and utterly full with all sapces used up should the bus driver then just kick loads of passengers off to accomodate 1 ?

"Loads of passengers", who the hell ever said that? If the bus is full, it is full, however, if a single passenger is occupying the handicap spot and is not handicap, they should not be there and should leave the bus so that a person that has a legal claim to that place can get on the bus.

TBirdFrank
11th Nov 2014, 23:19
We are talking here about an inner city bus route - i.e. one along in a few minutes! - not a wait for an hour, which I would have to endure if I miss my local bus.

The type of insensitive attitude displayed by some of these people has been well displayed here - "Wake that infant up and chuck it out in the rain - I'm disabled and musn't be made to wait for the next bus for even a few minutes" That's right up there with the Range Rovers, Porsches etc round here that all seem to have blue badges

Mr Whinger says that missing that one bus caused him to miss his train so making him an hour late - the answer is for him to use the intellect he employed to instruct a lawyer to pursue this nonsense to set out in time so that if one bus is full, there is still time to catch another, and still achieve the timescale. What would he have done, if like me he had been on the 59 from Aldwych to Euston last month and found Southampton Row blocked as I did? I got off, and despite being 64 and diabetic, I legged it to Euston and got there with a minute to spare for the 20.00 Manchester. Perhaps I should have sat on the bus and sued Camden Council for delaying me.

We had another example around here a while ago - class 142 trains are awful, and almost impossible for wheelchair users. A helpful guard suggested the wheelchair user take a following 323 with a flat floor. Did the wheelchair user thank him? - no - he turned up the next day wired up with a camera - got the same advice, then sent the film to the BBC screaming discrimination.

That's what gets my goat, professional whinging.

It is now the vogue to build ramped footbridges to comply with the DDA, at over half a million a throw. How many taxis would that pay for to provide a door to door service rather than line bridge builders pockets, and disfigure the landscape. What is wanted is a journey - how that journey is provided should not cost a king's ransom.

As I said - I will take lectures from no-one about addressing disability, and I will help anyone - but not if a sod you I'm disabled type of attitude is forthcoming as it appears to be from some quarters nowadays.

con-pilot
12th Nov 2014, 00:57
Yes, when one cannot walk, it is such an inconvenience to some.

Perhaps the handicapped should have their own bus that runs once a day. Then you would not fear being inconvenienced by one person in a wheelchair. Say at 04:00 so you will not even have to look at them.

After all, you do live in a democracy yes? Majority rules, so tough if one is handicapped, they can walk.

As for the law, just ignore the ones you donít like, as you might be inconvenienced, canít have that now, can we.

radeng
12th Nov 2014, 07:26
I have a disabled persons blue parking badge, walk with a stick and get round the supermarket only by using the trolley as a super Zimmer frame - on a bad day. (Some days are just a painful limp!) The other day, I was pulling the trolley out from the stack where it was stuck and a girl of about 10 years of age or so rushed over and asked if she could help......So I thanked her politely let her pull out the trolley, dumped my bags and cane in the trolley and di the shopping. I think she would have helped with that if needed.

In Geneva, walking with the aid of a stick generally means that at rush hour, some one will give up their seat for you: on the London Undergound, it appears that it is only young people of Indian or Far Eastern origin who will do that.

Different people, different attitudes.

Blacksheep
12th Nov 2014, 07:57
The bus driver should have the authority to tell the woman to move the pram or get off the bus. He does. He can also turn off his engine and refuse to move unless his instruction is complied with - in which case the offender faces the wrath of all the other passengers. The problem is that no-one will back him up, so he also faces the wrath of the other passengers, who will give him some stick to get going again.

I deplore the fact that in our drive for "equality" we have created a society where everyone has rights and no-one has responsibilities. Respect for one another is disappearing and we are slowly but surely reverting to the savage state. The "I'll do what I please and **** the rest of you" brigade are everywhere.


Not long ago, I was sitting at a cafe with an Iban friend from a longhouse in Temburong. He commented that in colonial times, Europeans were fully clothed with only hands and faces uncovered. Linen suits with collar and ties were the only acceptable public attire for a man. Going out bare-chested and bare-legged, sporting tatoos was something only local tribesmen would do. Today the roles are reversing: Iban tribesmen wear shirts and slacks and only Europeans are seen walking about in singlet, shorts and flip-flops, their bodies covered in garish tatoos. By the end of the century we'll be back to the hunter-gatherer state at this rate.

Dee747
12th Nov 2014, 09:57
I have to agree. As a blue badge holder I appreciate the provision of suitable car parking spaces which are more conveniently located to places I wish to go to. Likewise the ability to park in other places, within regulations, that other motorists may not be able to use. And I hate, with a vengeance, those who blatantly misuse those parking places when very clearly abusing the use of a card (perhaps kept in the car for use when the actual holder is present).

Looks can indeed be deceiving, and often the disability is not immediately apparent, e.g. no use of a wheelchair perhaps, so policing misuse of a great system which benefits so many of us, is extremely difficult, and is therefore ripe for abuse.

As for toilet facilities, my own view is that unlike parking spaces in streets and car parks, which carry a certain level of legislation about their use, such toilets are not subject to the same rigours and are, indeed, conveniences. To that end, I interpret them as being signed on the outside of the door as "suitable" for those with mobility issues, but are not exclusively for their use. I would see no harm whatsoever in a fully able person using such facilities, so long as priority was afforded to someone whose mobility or ability was restricted. Believe me, trying to navigate a wheelchair and helper into even a good disabled toilet can be a Herculean task in itself.

keyboard flier
12th Nov 2014, 10:17
To put another view, regarding parking spaces. At a local supermarket they have disabled parking places, as they should, and parent and child places also. The number of times that the parent & child places are taken up by blue badge holders so that those, for whom the places are designated for, cannot use them.
There are those disabled drivers who feel that it is their right to park anywhere they like regardless of the fact that those places are not reserved for them. There is a selfish attitude of some drivers.

Dee747
12th Nov 2014, 10:25
KF

I agree entirely with you. Parent and Child places are their for their benefit. No blue badge holder has the right to misuse those. Nor has any other type of driver. I view my blue badge as a benefit to me to enable me to park where provision has been made for the scheme. Selfish misuse of the badge is unacceptable. Where no space exists to allow me to park in accordance with my badge entitlement, I simply look for a regular parking space (usually further away) and undertake the additional inconvenience, or adjust my plans accordingly.

cockney steve
12th Nov 2014, 10:31
Apparently able-bodied fellow gets out of a car parked in a disabled space. Another person accosts him and queries his use of the space...."So, what's wrong with you, then?"

"I've got Tourettes, now Fxxk off , you cnut"

Mother and child should have ben given option of obeying lawful instructions of driver or be forcibly disembarked by Plod and charged.

AIUI, all local (Greater Manchester) buses have CCTV cameras downloading via wireless link and the drivers have radio contact with base I also hear that some less salubrious areas are "no-go" at certain times and the drivers refuse to pilot their cattle-trucks along those routes.

PTT
12th Nov 2014, 10:33
It's not to do with being disabled, or a mother, or whatever. It's to do with the attitude of entitlement which some people have, and their circumstances exacerbate that sense of entitlement because they are [insert special pleading "reason" here]. This attitude pervades many of the old, the young, the disabled and the able bodied. People are the problem, not their condition. The solution is not being hidebound by rules, but consideration and empathy.

G-CPTN
12th Nov 2014, 11:09
The quandary facing the bus driver is that he has no legal authority other than refusing to continue to drive - which inconveniences the non-involved passengers as well as those causing the interruption, so the driver faces alienating all the passengers. Accepting the simplest solution (asking the wheelchair-user to leave) is often the way forward.

Calling the police would exacerbate the situation and the police could only act as mediators - there is no legal right to the space - only that the bus operator should provide the space for a wheelchair.
What some bus operators offer is to call a taxi should a wheelchair user be unable to board the bus.

The question as to whether a wheelchair user can claim precedence over a pushchair is what is being tested in the appeal court. A previous court judgement ruled in favour of 'first come first served' - ie the bus company had met its obligation by providing a wheelchair space. What happens if a second wheelchair user wants to board the bus when the space was already occupied by a wheelchair? What if several wheelchair users wanted to travel on the same bus? After all, non-impaired passengers can travel in groups, so are impaired passengers being discriminated against?

panda-k-bear
12th Nov 2014, 11:15
If his missing the bus caused him to miss the connection and be an hour late, I can understand the frustration. But what if the space had not been occupied by a pram or pushchair. What if it had been occupied by another wheelchair user? He would have been late. So the mention above about prudent planning would, to me, be common sense anyway.

racedo
12th Nov 2014, 11:44
No, all she had to do was move the pram. Nowhere in the story does it state the bus was full.


Nor does it say that there was anywhere the parent could safely have moved to, great move to let a wheelchair in but in doing so block access for everybody else on the bus and have paseengers trying to get by


"Loads of passengers", who the hell ever said that? If the bus is full, it is full, however, if a single passenger is occupying the handicap spot and is not handicap, they should not be there and should leave the bus so that a person that has a legal claim to that place can get on the bus.

If bus is full with people standing everywhere and in the area where wheelchair could go, based on the supposed legal claim to the place the driver has to remove people from the bus.

I think the judgement was a crock as most people will do everything they can to accommodate others but here is someone who demands their rights irrespective of anybodys elses.

As wheelcahir use had NOT yet paid their fare then Bus Driver is person who makes the decision.

racedo
12th Nov 2014, 11:46
Calling the police would exacerbate the situation and the police could only act as mediators - there is no legal right to the space - only that the bus operator should provide the space for a wheelchair.
What some bus operators offer is to call a taxi should a wheelchair user be unable to board the bus.


Agree. Police would do nothing unless breach of the peace were to occur.
They could not have removed the mother and baby.

racedo
12th Nov 2014, 13:14
Calling the police would be absurd.

Maybe but when 2 people are at an intractable place and person (bus driver) in between gets it from denying a disabled person or booting off a mum with sleeping baby then passing the buck to someone else may be best solution.

Driver is dammed whichever way he acts.

superq7
12th Nov 2014, 15:16
I'm eligible to apply for a disabled badge for my car because my son is severely autistic but I won't because he's a strapping lad and strong as an Ox.

alwayzinit
12th Nov 2014, 15:51
I noted on a Sky News report that the wheelchair "pilot" was not wheeling his chair by hand by walking whilst sitting down, if you get my drift.
Now to me the whole issue is a storm in a teacup, however, the level of disability suffered by the wheelchair chap seems a little unclear.

Many moons ago during the Sunday morning golf batting session with the gang one of us completely stuffed a short putt. This of course caused much pish taking and general abuse.
Said "Stuffer" took huge umbrage and claimed he was "Disabled" as he was dyslexic!!!!
This caused much more pish taking as he is also a double first from Cambridge with the brain of a planet. However, the putting skill of a donut!
Come Clive you know who you are!!!:}
In many cases it would seem that disabled is a state of mind, the Invictus Games being a prime example.

racedo
12th Nov 2014, 17:25
I'm eligible to apply for a disabled badge for my car because my son is severely autistic but I won't because he's a strapping lad and strong as an Ox.

I would apply because you just know at some point in time some herbert will change the criteria and he will not be entitled to apply for one but having one already he will be exempt. Also gets the council to do something for your council tax.

radeng
12th Nov 2014, 18:14
It appears to be much harder to get one renewed than it was to get one three years ago.....

Why didn't someone yell very loudly and wake the baby? Then she would have had no excuse!

waveskimmer
12th Nov 2014, 18:38
Disability is not a choice, child bearing is I am sick and tired of this "entitled" attitude of women of breeding age.

wings folded
12th Nov 2014, 18:48
he will not be entitled to apply for one but having one already he will be exempt. Wrotten advice. You have to be reassessed every three years against increasingly strict criteria.

As if an amputees limbs might have regrown :ugh:

con-pilot
12th Nov 2014, 18:53
Wrotten advice. You have to be reassessed every three years against increasingly strict criteria.


Every five years here, I just had my primary care doctor renew mine.

rgbrock1
12th Nov 2014, 18:57
Not meaning to make light of any amputee but that doesn't necessarily mean one has to remain that way. Staff Sergeant Kap here, a US Army Ranger, lost his leg in Afghanistan. And after a lengthy rehab process, coupled with the US Army continuously telling him that he was finished for good in his unit, SFC Kap eventually made it back to his Ranger unit (1st Batt) in Afghanistan to take up the fight again. An inspiration to us all, amputee or not, no?

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/b3/bc/9f/b3bc9ffde9e52fda94039665f5c46fc9.jpg

con-pilot
12th Nov 2014, 19:04
An inspiration to us all, amputee or not, no?


Absolutely, even, or perhaps especially to those of us that have all of our limbs, even though on occasions said limbs stop working for a while. ;)

I think NBC had a story about this Ranger, his recovery and return to duty. I was, actually am, in total awe about his story.

rgbrock1
12th Nov 2014, 19:11
con:

I read his book 'Back In The Fight' which he co-wrote. An amazing, amazing story of strength, perseverance and the will to never give in. An amazing Ranger, an equally amazing soldier and, most importantly, an amazing man.

http://www.commandposts.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Back-in-the-Fight-The-Explosive-Memoir-of-a-Special-Operator-Who-Never-Gave-Up-by-Sergeant-First-Class-Joseph-Kapacziewski-and-Charles-Sasser-300x453.jpg