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meadowrun
10th Nov 2014, 12:01
In WWI, infantry were faced with incoming fire from hidden artillery making return fire totally inaccurate. Some bright spark devised a sound detector system based on triangulation and a bit of complex math to pinpoint the sources. This enabled return fire to eliminate the threats.


Has or why hasn't a system been developed to auto-locate incoming rifle and machine gun fire based on muzzle flashes? A device coupled to an automatic firearm mounted on a tripod with auto traverse and elevation capabilities might be interesting.

Fox3WheresMyBanana
10th Nov 2014, 12:24
Problems include:

Riflemen are a lot more mobile than artillery.
(And that's why artillery went Self-Propelled. Half the point of the Multiple Launch Rocket System is that the launch vehicle has moved by the time its rockets hit the target)

Sound waves diffract, light waves (in this context) don't, so direct line of sight to each muzzle flash from 2 directions (separated by a significant angle) would be needed .

Somebody has to go set up the detectors, and you have to network them correctly each time.

Simple detectors would need careful alignment, self-aligning detectors are expensive.

What weapon will you use to kill the enemy riflemen?
For bullet based systems, you generally still have to be able to see the riflemen clearly.
For mortars/other small area weapons (napalm!),'flashes from edge of treeline' will do as a target reference to order the mortar fire.

A much simpler solution is just to use a single video camera, then play it back after some enemy rifle fire and freeze frame on muzzle flashes. Compare to view in front of camera. Job done.
More sophisticated - have software continually analyse the video signal & pick out the flashes (a filter tuned to muzzle flash light frequencies may help). Co-locate a small laser on top of the camera to indicate where the flashes are coming from. Don't sit next to the camera in this case!

messybeast
10th Nov 2014, 12:24
Raytheon's Boomerang system detects bullets / gunfire but I think it's purely audio based rather than optical. It can control cameras but I'm not sure it can control accurate return fire.

The Roke / Selex HALO system is another audio based one, for Artillery detection.

Messy

Blacksheep
10th Nov 2014, 12:33
Assuming it doesn't actually hit you, it's easy to tell which way 'incoming' came from so you can take cover. Humans come with sound and visual detectors provided.

The problem comes when you have to stick your head up for a good enough view to shoot back. ;)

mad_jock
10th Nov 2014, 12:52
We had a corporal that could do the same job and you didn't even need to feed him everyday.

rgbrock1
10th Nov 2014, 13:11
That's what Forward Observers are for! They spot hostiles and then radio the appropriate information on their whereabouts back to the Fire Direction Center of an artillery battery and, presto like magic, the hostiles are no longer to be found. Well, not in one piece anyway.

Splash one. Splash out.

sitigeltfel
10th Nov 2014, 13:14
Infantry use the Fire and Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_and_Movement)technique to confuse the opposition. Once you have located the source of the incoming, a properly trained enemy should no longer be there.

Bushfiva
10th Nov 2014, 13:16
SST's ShotSpotter is a similar system, installed in around 100 cities. There is a map of shot detections in Canton (Ohio) here (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zv75kFTs2Yss.kDaK39uRgGc0). I saw a demo of a vehicle-mounted system a few years ago, but I can't remember who made it.

meadowrun
10th Nov 2014, 13:30
My thoughts were more an independent system. You're dug in, more or less, and the system is set up with the device and barrel the only things exposed.


It detects a muzzle flash and fires back to that flash, say three rounds for effect. no flash - no more firing - searches for next flashes. Operates separately from the troops as a support system having had the independent fire switch thrown. Only need re-loading. Long range sniper type firearm. Something to deal with recoil and re-adjustment required.

rgbrock1
10th Nov 2014, 13:35
Infantry use the Fire and Movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_and_Movement)technique to confuse the opposition

Roger that. Bounding Overwatch, Overwatch and Peel are the 3 common infantry tactics of F&M. All quite nicely covered in the US Army's FM 7-8, Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad. Still have my "borrowed" copy from the early '80s!

Romeo Golf Bravo, out. :}

tony draper
10th Nov 2014, 14:04
Best just take off and nuke the feckers from orbit. :rolleyes:

mixture
10th Nov 2014, 14:14
Has or why hasn't a system been developed to auto-locate incoming rifle and machine gun fire based on muzzle flashes? A device coupled to an automatic firearm mounted on a tripod with auto traverse and elevation capabilities might be interesting.


I would be surprised if various places haven't already experimented with such .... but they would probably have to shoot you before being able to tell you more. :cool:

Sallyann1234
10th Nov 2014, 16:20
There are radar systems available and in operation that can track the path of incoming projectiles and predict the firing point. At least one can be fitted to vehicles.

TWT
10th Nov 2014, 22:42
Makes it easy for anti-radiation missiles to find you....

chevvron
10th Nov 2014, 23:56
Sound detectors were tested on Romney Marsh prior to WW2; at least one of the parabolic reflectors is still there and visible on satellite photos about a mile east of Lydd Airport.

Sallyann1234
11th Nov 2014, 09:24
TWT,
Indeed, that is an important issue. But not one that applies with the application I'm thinking of.

chevvron,
They were intended to detect the presence of incoming aircraft, so rather different to the OP's idea.

parabellum
11th Nov 2014, 09:59
There is a video on YouTube showing an AQ/Taliban mortar sending bombs outbound and then a shot of the inbound that has auto located them and destroys them! Not WW1 I realise.

cattletruck
11th Nov 2014, 10:01
Would be an ominous site seeing plenty of muzzle flashes all at once. Fire your round to lighten your load then turn around and get out of there as fast as you can.

I'm told that during the Bosnian war the Americans used to fly a light unarmed F-16 at speed and at low level to illuminate SAM sites hidden in the mountains, then an AWAC would register their locations and it would soon start raining down bombs.

The same person also told me that the American style of moving forward in difficult terrain is to go in with guns blazing, that is, carpet bomb the next position you want to secure - appears to work very well little to no American casualties, and the technology is proven to work.

Stanwell
11th Nov 2014, 15:00
cattletruck.
Didn't work so well at Iwo Jima and a few other places, I hear.

Solid Rust Twotter
11th Nov 2014, 16:33
Reconnaissance by fire. Works very well if you don't mind them knowing you're there. It's a proven tactic and has its place among many others.

OldCessna
11th Nov 2014, 18:24
The police in the US use this. Works really well I am told

ShotSpotter Gunshot Detection and Location Service | Protect Critical Infrastructure, Campuses, Cities (http://www.shotspotter.com)

rgbrock1
11th Nov 2014, 19:24
SRT wrote:

Reconnaissance by fire. Works very well if you don't mind them knowing you're there

Recon by overwhelming firepower. My kinda patrol! :}:E:ok:

ShyTorque
11th Nov 2014, 21:02
About thirty five years ago I read about a laser based system that sought out potential aggressors before they fired. A low powered laser projector surveyed an area by very rapid traverses, effectively looking out all around and above. If a return reflection was identified as coming from an optical device (gunsight, binoculars etc), a second, very high power laser would be instantly directed at it.

So the sniper wouldn't get to fire and he would need a white stick to get home.

PingDit
14th Nov 2014, 09:32
A system was developed for use during the Northern Ireland troubles. It's now been greatly improved and runs off a laptop. There are radio links to the field detectors which detect a gunshot and automatically reveal the source of the gunfire. With regards to an automatic system which detects muzzle-flash; if the sun were to glint/reflect off a vehicle window, would the system take out the vehicle thinking it was a muzzle-flash?

Lonewolf_50
14th Nov 2014, 13:28
The same person also told me that the American style of moving forward in difficult terrain is to go in with guns blazing, that is, carpet bomb the next position you want to secure
I'd say that neither you, nor your informant, have any idea what carpet bombing is.
The above quote is an example of not understanding what fire and maneuver is all about.

chksix
14th Nov 2014, 15:30
ARTHUR (radar) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARTHUR_%28radar%29) :D

Mechta
14th Nov 2014, 15:45
Chevvron, Those concrete dishes and the curved wall on Romney Marsh were the first things that sprang to mind when I read this thread.

More on them here (or should that be hear?):

Sound Mirrors (http://www.greatstone.net/history/sound_mirrors.htm)

http://www.greatstone.net/images/ear9.jpg

http://www.greatstone.net/images/ear10.jpg


The South Koreans have robot guns in parts of the demilitarized zone separating them from the North, (detection is by image recognition not sound though):

South Korea's autonomous robot gun turrets: deadly from kilometers away (http://www.gizmag.com/korea-dodamm-super-aegis-autonomos-robot-gun-turret/17198/)