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rgbrock1
4th Nov 2014, 17:01
I was just reading an interesting news-wire story about NATO's American commander - US Air Force General Philip Breedlove - and the deteriorating picture he painted of US and EU relations with Russia. The picture was grim indeed.

That, coupled with the recent spate of Russian air activity in and around Europe, as well as Russian annexation of Crimea and continued threatening of Ukraine, has one wonder what the Russkies are up to.

Is this Putin grand-standing to a domestic audience or is something more sinister involved here? Neither one of which bodes well.

And, if the shit were to hit the fan I have to wonder how NATO would fare against Russian military aggression? :sad:

John Hill
4th Nov 2014, 17:33
And, if the shit were to hit the fan I have to wonder how NATO would fare against Russian military aggression?

One can only presume not very well considering how they managed against these guys---

http://www.occupybanksters.com/images/my-news/2012-03/12-03-28_10.jpg

vulcanised
4th Nov 2014, 17:38
Not to worry.

NATO will pass a strongly worded resolution.

brickhistory
4th Nov 2014, 17:38
1. I don't think NATO would fight today unless it were Berlin, Paris, or London being shelled.

No political stomach for it on either side of the Atlantic and the resulting tooth-sucking of "well, that's a shame" for those Eastern European will be just the price to pay for cheap iPads.

2. Russia is essentially a third world country, but with nukes. They don't have the long-term sustainment - logistics, etc - for a protracted fight with the West.

As long as Putin's cronies maintain their billions, he won't be kicked out. The average Ivan is used to not having much, so he faces no threat from them either.

But Putin knows that the current NATO is a paper tiger and will continue to push at the boundaries until he's whacked on the nose.

I don't see Barry doing it nor any of the old NATO members at present. New NATO might, but they'd be left out to dry by the rest.

meadowrun
4th Nov 2014, 17:39
An old political ploy when domestic economies are not doing very well is to distract the citizens with military grandstanding. A not very imaginative tactic.

racedo
4th Nov 2014, 18:33
An old political ploy when domestic economies are not doing very well is to distract the citizens with military grandstanding. A not very imaginative tactic.

Yeah it really is time Obama stopped doing it.

con-pilot
4th Nov 2014, 19:06
Yeah it really is time Obama stopped doing it.

Now, now, you're talking about a Nobel Peace Prize winner. :=

Also it is a mid-term election year you know. :suspect:

rgbrock1
4th Nov 2014, 19:32
OFSO:

I'm not sure it would have been quite like that. See, many moons ago when I was playing in the dirt and mud, as an infantryman in the 3rd Armored Division, we got to play a lot at Fulda. And learned very quickly that our role at the Gap was more or less that of a speed bump for the invading Slavic hordes. I'm not sure said Slavic hordes would have whizzed through central Europe that quickly but it wouldn't have been pretty, for sure.

I'm just not so sure the current Russian bear is as formidable as the Soviet one was.

alwayzinit
4th Nov 2014, 20:02
Said back in the '90s. Can't trust a nation whose national sport is chess!!!:eek:

tony draper
4th Nov 2014, 20:56
You folks never look for the simple answer,you have probs with some nasty SOB in Russia,no need to kill tens of thousands of Russian who for the most part just want to mind their own biz and get on with their own lives, just like us,you just need to kill one.
:E

Lonewolf_50
4th Nov 2014, 21:19
Tony, who will bell that cat? :hmm:

tony draper
4th Nov 2014, 21:27
Thousands of the sand people seem happy to die for their imaginary friend surely you can find one citizen. :)

OFSO
4th Nov 2014, 21:49
One point worth noting (and it may not be true today but I wouldn't bet on it) is that Soviet military equipment was primitive but sturdy. Hence defensive measures which would incapacitate sophisticated western equipment would have left Soviet block equipment untouched.

It could also be repaired by any idiot with very simple tools in appalling conditions. No computer diagnostic suite was necessary !

I'm just not so sure the current Russian bear is as formidable as the Soviet one was.

That, I agree with completely. There are far fewer people these days who would believe the Russian state is worth dying for than there were during the Great Patriotic War. Or was it that then, they had no option ?

tony draper
4th Nov 2014, 22:12
I suspect there are a lot more in the West who think along similar lines now as well,last time anyone in the West won a war fair and square hands up it's a fair cop guv we give in, was us in the Falklands,we have made a complete arse of every one since.:uhoh:

BenThere
4th Nov 2014, 23:02
Russia's biggest problems aren't with the West, but it's own demographics, economic reliance on commodities and their export prices, and Islam.

Russia should have allied with the West when it was available to do so, but Putin took her down his own path. We'll see how it works out in a year or two.

tony draper
4th Nov 2014, 23:10
I dont think the West was entirely encouraging that in that direction at the time Mr Ben
The Cold War warriors saw the entire reason for their existence slipping away and we couldn't have that could we.
:E

Caboclo
4th Nov 2014, 23:27
If Putin really wanted to conquer Ukraine, he would have done it by now.

BenThere
4th Nov 2014, 23:37
Not quite, Tony.

Investment was pouring into Russia in the early 1990s. There was no Cold War constituency. The money makers were looking at Russian trade as a foundation for world prosperity, and even an expanded and strengthened West.

Russian corruption and the rise of Putin squashed the plan, not recalcitrant Cold Warriors.

racedo
5th Nov 2014, 00:33
Investment was pouring into Russia in the early 1990s. There was no Cold War constituency. The money makers were looking at Russian trade as a foundation for world prosperity, and even an expanded and strengthened West.

Russian corruption and the rise of Putin squashed the plan, not recalcitrant Cold Warriors.

West jumped into Russia for sole purpose of making billions from it and screw the people.

Putin decided enough was enough as its Russian resources not some faceless Oil execs.

megan
5th Nov 2014, 01:06
Putin drawing a line in the sand?

Putin to the Western Elites: World War III Is Inevitable | Dave Hodges ? The Common Sense Show (http://www.thecommonsenseshow.com/2014/11/02/putin-to-the-western-elites-world-war-iii-is-inevitable/)

con-pilot
5th Nov 2014, 01:37
I love this bit at the end.

Putin has warned that “I want to remind you that Russia is one of the most powerful nuclear nations,” Putin said. “This is a reality, not just words.”

The United States would be wise to prepare in kind. Is anyone else concerned that our first and last line of defense is Barack “let’s play nine” Obama?


To me it looks like Putin wants to restart the Cold War, but President Obama is too busy playing golf to be bothered.

Which is the best thing Obama has done since taking office, even if it is by accident.

rh200
5th Nov 2014, 04:25
West jumped into Russia for sole purpose of making billions from it

Yep, thats what business does!

and screw the people.

Nope, business don't do morals, its up to the political class to take advantage of oppertunitys when they come along and not squander it. If your to corrupt and primitive to build your society, then maybe they need to stay a closed society.

China doesn't seem to have a problem.

Putin decided enough was enough as its Russian resources not some faceless Oil execs.

Nope, like a lot of second world countries, they couldn't make things work and are trying the last gasp method of deflecting criticism away by blaming outsiders.

Most of the ex eastern block countries are slowly but surely pulling their populations out of the gutter by looking westward. In my opinion too quickly, but we will see with time if their progress holds.

racedo
5th Nov 2014, 12:31
Most of the ex eastern block countries are slowly but surely pulling their populations out of the gutter by looking westward. In my opinion too quickly, but we will see with time if their progress holds.

Don't you mean by sending their people Westward.

Poland along has lost 5% of its population since 2004, Baltic states similar.

rgbrock1
5th Nov 2014, 12:57
If Putin really wanted to conquer Ukraine, he would have done it by now.

Militarily yes. but that's not the only aspect which needs to be addressed. The Russian army could probably roll through Ukraine in a matter of weeks. It's the aftermath which causes him pause.

Keef
5th Nov 2014, 17:59
It's a mess.

Putin's annexation of Crimea and exploits in Eastern Ukraine attracted the inevitable sanctions, and in response he banned imports of various items from various places. Farmers in parts of the EU now have product grown for Russia which they can't sell, and they are in financial trouble.

Meanwhile, Russia doesn't have the European product, prices are rising, and people aren't happy. When the Russians decide to buy from the EU again, will those farmers take the risk of producing for Russia?

Russia has been messing around with gas supplies to its customers, causing them to look for other sources. That causes problems all round, but is not good for Russia.

The Russian economy is suffering, the rouble is dropping against other currencies, and Putin needs some distraction to get the people behind him.

That worries me...

racedo
5th Nov 2014, 18:04
Putin's annexation of Crimea and exploits in Eastern Ukraine attracted the inevitable sanctions, and in response he banned imports of various items from various places. Farmers in parts of the EU now have product grown for Russia which they can't sell, and they are in financial trouble.

Meanwhile, Russia doesn't have the European product, prices are rising, and people aren't happy. When the Russians decide to buy from the EU again, will those farmers take the risk of producing for Russia?

Russia has been messing around with gas supplies to its customers, causing them to look for other sources. That causes problems all round, but is not good for Russia.

The Russian economy is suffering, the rouble is dropping against other currencies, and Putin needs some distraction to get the people behind him.

That worries me...

Russia sourcing products from Brazil, India, Turkey, Israel etc so even when ban lifted IF Russia starts buying again it will be at a lower price because competition.

Ukraine doing the messing in taking gas it hasn't paid for and EU nations sending Gas to ukraine yet nobody says how they will be paid.

Putins's approval rating are way higher than Obamas so why does Putin need the distraction.

rgbrock1
5th Nov 2014, 18:28
Keef wrote:

The Russian economy is suffering, the rouble is dropping against other currencies, and Putin needs some distraction to get the people behind him.

That worries me...

And therein lies the conundrum. For Putin anyway. If the Russian economy continues on its downward trend, with the Rouble continuing to lose value, then the Oligarchs of Russia will also consequently lose big money. And if they turn on Putin then all bets or off for Vlad.

fitliker
5th Nov 2014, 18:48
How close towards Moscow does Nato think it can crawl ,before it reaches a point where war with Russia will happen ?
Some red lines can be crossed with absolute impunity towards the wimp that drew them, other red lines cannot be crossed without war.
The wars against Russia by the French, the British, the Germans in the last few centuries have taught some folks nothing. Russia has been successful in defending itself against every enemy.




They should try making peace and enjoying the fruits of that fellowship, that was very beneficial in times of peace between those old foes.




That said I did notice that some of the old cold war relics have some interesting construction activity around them. Whether they are just restocking them or upgrading them I cannot say as I did not get close enough to tell whether materials were being moved into or out of the bunkers.






Do the Swiss have to pay for the spaces that their government provides in their bunkers ? Will anyone be allowed in to a Swiss bunker in an emergency ?

Lonewolf_50
5th Nov 2014, 19:30
One of the things the Russians and Americans have in common, particularly in the world of "post 9-11" is a serious issue with Islamists, albeit for different reasons.

It disturbs me that the pols in my country haven't done a better job of using that common ground to build bridges with the Russians. :mad:

tony draper
5th Nov 2014, 20:00
Yup I think the posturing feckwits in NATO will poke the Bear just a little too hard one of these days and bluffs will be called.
:uhoh: