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G-CPTN
3rd Nov 2014, 23:20
The detail of this case is extremely disturbing.

The 15 year old systematically planned to murder the teacher for whom he expressed deep hate (despite 'everyone else' describing her as a 'caring mother hen' character who had successfully operated for forty years.

The youngster outlined his plan to some of his peers (yet nobody sought to report this - probably because they disbelieved him to be capable of such horrendous behaviour).

His cold-blooded, calculated, murder has been followed by a complete denial of remorse - indeed he expressed his satisfaction at his achievement.

It's worth reading the accounts to appreciate the depth of his depravity - yet psychiatrists suggest that full psychopathic diagnosis is usually only possible in an adult of age 21.

He has been committed to a minimum of 20 years in prison (despite having been a promising academic pupil from a decent background) wit the judge expressing the opinion that he might never be released.

BBC News - Ann Maguire murder: Will Cornick sentenced to life (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29879865)

Mechta
3rd Nov 2014, 23:57
The strange thing about this case is that the police and psychiatrists couldn't pin down what it was that made Cornick have such animosity to the murdered teacher. A report mentioned that she banned him from a trip due to failing to do a piece of homework, although that in itself seems barely sufficient, unless, perhaps, he gave an honest explanation which she rejected out of hand.

Discussing it, Mrs Mechta and I both reckon the teacher must have humiliated him, possibly in front of his class, although this isn't mentioned in the report.

meadowrun
4th Nov 2014, 01:32
OK, a partial psychopath then. But still a good argument for the death penalty. You can't heal them.

Loose rivets
4th Nov 2014, 01:45
It's his structured answers that puzzle me. They seem to be the product of an ordered mind that has a faulty overall control. He seems truly sociopathic but how long has he been like this?

The thing is, if he was perfectly normal, and something changed him, it's vital society finds the trigger.

The real dilemma would arise if say, it was found some chemistry had altered his mind and it was chemistry he had no knowledge of. Do you then punish a child that's undergone a complete cure?

Clare Prop
4th Nov 2014, 01:49
"We Need To Talk About Kevin" is about this very kind of thing. Very spooky book and film.

con-pilot
4th Nov 2014, 01:59
Just after I moved from England to Oklahoma there was a case where a 15 year old tied a pony to a stake and tortured it to death with a knife.

He was sentenced to a "Boy's Town" until he was 18, then as the law demanded he was released.

A year later he did it again, but this time it was a 16 year old girl.

He was executed a year later.

brickhistory
4th Nov 2014, 05:48
Do you then punish a child that's undergone a complete cure?


Will his victim be getting cured?

CISTRS
4th Nov 2014, 06:02
He needs to be removed from the gene pool.
His "chemistry" is not relevant.

Capetonian
4th Nov 2014, 07:08
For whatever reason, he is beyond rehabilitation. Pure pre-meditated evil. Keeping him alive at public expense for perhaps another 65 years serves what purpose, if any?

I believe that the National Grid is up to the task.

Wingswinger
4th Nov 2014, 07:31
You have to feel sorry for his parents too. By all accounts they are decent people. They must be asking themselves what sort of creature they raised and where they went wrong.

sitigeltfel
4th Nov 2014, 08:30
You have to feel sorry for his parents too. By all accounts they are decent people. They must be asking themselves what sort of creature they raised and where they went wrong.

It is quite possible that they did nothing wrong and his case will keep the shrinks in business for decades.

Some people are just bad.

Effluent Man
4th Nov 2014, 09:28
I think evil is a misleading term.It implies that he had some kind of control over what he did,which clearly he did not.Assuming that there was no significant drug impact here then all we can assume is that he was born with a deep potential towards psychopathy that somehow was nurtured by his environment.

The theory that he was humiliated is interesting and quite possibly the key to what happened.He wasn't evil though,he was quite simply nuts.

Fliegenmong
4th Nov 2014, 10:11
And therein lies a question I heard in a flippant song lyric many a year ago...and one which Mrs Fliegs put to her University Psych lecturer class....

"Is Evil something you are...or just something you do" :rolleyes:;)

Yes, as a parent of a good kid, well young man, I despair for his parents......but at the same time question.....how???:confused:

Sallyann1234
4th Nov 2014, 10:31
I believe it is wrong to think that 'goodness' is the normal, natural human condition, and 'evil' is an aberration.
Of course we all applaud a person like the teacher who was murdered, and we hate a person like the boy who killed her. But these are just two extremes of a particular human condition, just as there is a wide variation in the IQ, or the length of the legs.

It is right that we remove the killer from society for our own protection, but really we should be no more surprised at his behaviour than we are at the outstandingly good people that we have all met and admired.

Tankertrashnav
4th Nov 2014, 11:06
For goodness sake SallyAnn - this is Jetblast

It's no place for thoughtful and reasoned posts like yours!

G-CPTN
4th Nov 2014, 11:12
The court heard Will Cornick had been planning the murder for three years, but neither his teachers nor his parents saw it coming.

three years FFS!

A selfie Cornick posted on Facebook some time before the attack showed a boy with straight, shoulder-length brown hair covering his face. By the time he appeared in court a few days after the attack, his hair had been cut into a shaggy urchin crop,

Hardly 'normal' ?

His year head at the time described him as a “delightful pupil who always gave his best and was pleasant, polite and cooperative with 100% attendance”. In the four and a half years he spent at the school there were only five incidents of misbehaviour. He had no criminal record.

For reasons which have never become clear, in year 8 Cornick developed an “entirely irrational” hatred for Maguire. Perhaps it was a coincidence, but shortly beforehand he had collapsed on a family holiday in Cornwall and was diagnosed with a life-limiting illness.
“This seems to have had a major impact not only on his lifestyle but also on his mood and personality,”. Afterwards, his mother noticed a period of self-harm, but it soon seemed to stop.
In 2013 he was unhappy to discover that he would not be able to join the army because of his medical issues and began to talk more and more about his dislike for Maguire. At a parents’ evening in November 2013, the boy refused to see Maguire, who had taught him Spanish since 2009. Late on Christmas Eve in 2013 and into the early hours of Christmas Day he sent messages to a friend on Facebook where he talked of “brutally killing” Maguire.
On 24 February this year, just over two months before the killing, he sent a message to a friend on Facebook saying of Maguire: “… the one absolute ******* bitch that deserves more than death more than pain torture and more than anything that we can understand.” A few weeks previously he had been put in “internal isolation” at school after getting in trouble with Maguire: he had failed to do his Spanish homework and as a result, she barred him from going on a school bowling trip. He disobeyed her and went anyway.
The boy later told a psychiatrist that he decided four days before the killing, on a Thursday, that he was going to murder Maguire rather than kill himself. He said that on the Friday he really made his mind up “after months of thinking life is pretty ******* shit. I couldn’t see myself passing college and had no hope of doing anything. I tried to apply for the army but they said no.”
He has never shown remorse for the killing, telling one doctor that he was proud of what he had done. “I wasn’t in shock, I was happy. I had a sense of pride. I still do. I know it’s uncivilised but I know it’s incredibly instinctual and human. Past generations of life, killing is a natural route of survival. It’s kill or be killed. I did not have a choice. It was kill her or suicide,” he said.
While psychiatrists concluded that he was of sound mind when he murdered Maguire, they found some evidence of a personality disorder. One said the boy had an adjustment disorder, writing in a report that he had “a gross lack of empathy for his victim and a degree of callousness rarely seen in clinical practice”.
The doctor said the boy “presents a risk of serious harm to the public and that this risk is present for the foreseeable future. The risk is of grave homicidal violence and this could easily involve the use of a weapon. The risk is immediate and unpredictable and could cause serious and lethal injury.”
His home life was unremarkable. His parents had separated but records show they stopped living together in Leeds in 2003, when Cornick was four or five. Ever since, he had been living with his mother in a semi-detached house in a quiet cul-de-sac a mile from the school. Neighbours said they were a quiet family, nothing untoward.
He still saw his father, a council worker who lived in a village outside Leeds with his new partner and their son, Cornick’s half-brother.
From:- Will Cornick: a model student who planned murder for three years | UK news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/03/will-cornick-model-student-planned-ann-maguire-murder-three-years)

Effluent Man
4th Nov 2014, 11:18
I do wonder if he is a drug user.Some of them can have strange effects

cattletruck
4th Nov 2014, 11:36
In the next suburb which is upper middle class we had an elderly couple murdered by a 21 year old who just wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone. He chose an elderly couple whom he knew of because he felt they had lived their life and were suitable for the task - how thoughtful.

Apparently there was no indication that he was ever capable of such a horrible act. Very sad.

Sallyann1234
4th Nov 2014, 12:15
But would that really work, Basil?

The boy later told a psychiatrist that he decided four days before the killing, on a Thursday, that he was going to murder Maguire rather than kill himself.

From that quote it seems the threat of a death penalty would not be much of a disincentive. It might even encourage someone with a death wish to 'take a hated person with them'.

Mechta
4th Nov 2014, 12:21
Perhaps there is an argument for judicially killing people who commit some types of premiditated murder in the hope that the example may cause others tempted to do likewise to pause for thought. Nothing in the Will Cornick case suggests to me that this would have been any sort of a deterrent to him. He said he had already considered suicide.

At risk of a bit of thread drift, what does surprise me is how Simon Baron Cohen, cousin of Sacha Baron Cohen AKA 'Borat', is a leading expert in psychopathic behaviour. One would think that he might have mentioned to his cousin that embarrassing previously unknown members of the public on the worldwide screen, might be a rather dangerous activity, particularly in a country (the USA) with plenty of guns and rather patchy mental healthcare. Anyone remember the scene in Borat in which three Frat boys voicing their unguarded opinions in the motorhome?

G-CPTN
4th Nov 2014, 12:28
It has yet to emerge exactly what is the nature of his life-limiting illness which prevented him from joining the Army.

Mechta
4th Nov 2014, 13:55
Basil,

I thought it was all scripted with actors. Not entirely, if this is to be believed:

What?s real in ?Borat?? - Salon.com (http://www.salon.com/2006/11/10/guide_to_borat/)

The Scene: Borat takes a road trip with three frat boys
Where: The film implies that it takes place on a stretch in the Southwest. In fact, it was in South Carolina.
Borat gets picked up on the side of the road by three members of the Chi Psi fraternity. David, Justin and Anthony fulfill just about every frat-boy stereotype possible, saying they wished they had slaves, explaining that minorities have all the power, disabusing Borat of the notion that Pamela Anderson is a virgin, and devolving into general drunken boorishness.
What happened: The University of South Carolina chapter of Chi Psi has been expectedly tight-lipped about the incident, which doesn’t portray the boys in a particularly positive light. Chapter president Todd Bailey told a Web site (http://news.pajamasmedia.com/2006/11/03/11771352_Documentary_dupe.shtml) that he’s not eager to see the film: “Personally, I have no desire to see it, but I have to be aware of what’s in the movie.”
David Corcoran, the most outspoken of the three, spoke with FHM (http://www.fhmus.com/articles-2346.asp) about the experience. “This guy said they were filming a Kazakh reporter who wanted to hang out with frat guys,” Corcoran said. “They met 10 of us and I guess chose the three who wouldn’t recognize Borat.” The producers paid for the three men to drink at a bar, and then had them get in the RV and “pick Borat up … as if he was hitchhiking.” Once in the RV, he says, Borat showed them naked pictures of his sister and confessed to beating women.
Two of the guys — identified in court filings only as John Doe 1 and John Doe 2 — are now suing (http://www.tmz.com/2006/11/09/borat-lawsuit-high-five) 20th Century Fox and One America Productions, the production company behind the film. The suit claims all three were told at the time that the film wouldn’t show in the U.S. and their identities would be kept secret. They’re seeking unspecified damages for “humiliation, mental anguish, and emotional and physical distress, loss of reputation, goodwill and standing in the community.”

Flying Lawyer
4th Nov 2014, 15:53
I thought it was all scripted with actors.

Tony Benn was interviewed by Sacha Baron Cohen in 'Ali G' mode some years ago. Benn believed what he was told by the production company - that they were making a new television programme designed to introduce young people to politics - and treated it just as he would any other interview, never suspecting that it was a spoof.

The consensus at the time, even amongst people who did not share his political views (ie most people), was that Benn achieved a rare distinction - coming out on top.


H-YYroSudUs

G-CPTN
4th Nov 2014, 16:15
Cornick was diagnosed with diabetes aged 12.
The condition meant he could not fulfil his ambition of joining the military.
It led to episodes of self-harm and minor theft from his home but he continued to make progress academically, enjoying a 100 per cent attendance record and earning the praise of his teachers, one of whom described him as a “delightful boy”.
There had been a series of run-ins with Mrs Maguire that year following an otherwise high-achieving school career which had seem him already pass five GCSE exams.
Despite his professed hatred for Mrs Maguire, other pupils said she treated him exactly the same as she did other classmates.From:- Ann Maguire murder: Teenager killer jailed for life named as Will Cornick - Crime - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/ann-maguire-murder-teenager-killer-jailed-for-life-named-as-william-cornick-9836321.html)

Evanelpus
4th Nov 2014, 16:27
Give the murderous scrote a lethal injection and remove him from the gene pool (someone suggest this earlier but in less graphic terms).:ok:

G-CPTN
4th Nov 2014, 16:37
Should 'life' prisoners be given the choice of 'suicide'?

Mechta
4th Nov 2014, 16:57
Should 'life' prisoners be given the choice of 'suicide'?

Seems reasonable. How persuasive should the person asking the question be allowed to be? :E

rgbrock1
4th Nov 2014, 20:16
Make ready. Aim. Fire.

mad_jock
4th Nov 2014, 20:42
To be honest I would prefer if we could find out what actually went wrong with this lad.

Yes killing the little sod would give some a short moment of satisfaction.

But find out what actually was wrong.

Are you all going to change your minds when a bit of a "house" moment happens and they discover that he has some tumour or other which can be proven to alter his way of thinking.

Mechta
4th Nov 2014, 21:35
Mad Jock, So if it can be proven that the lad had a reaction to, for example, a diabetes medication he had been prescribed, and that caused him to lose his self-control, presumably he could then on appeal his conviction would be reduced to manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility.

In cases where it is a reaction to factors beyond the culprit's control, it would be akin to blaming and destroying computer hardware for corrupted software being downloaded to it.

VP959
4th Nov 2014, 21:44
It's a sad fact that some people are born with what we would normally term psychopathic tendencies. I know, I have brother who was, without a doubt, in this category for many years in his youth. He had absolutely no sense that harming others was in any way wrong, held what most would view as irrational views about violence, death and morality, and was extremely unpredictable.

We were very lucky. Despite bouts of extreme violence, including knife attacks and attacks with tools like hammers, he never seriously harmed anyone, and by the age of around 20 he was antisocial, obnoxious and generally argumentative, but had lost the violent streak.

I've no doubt at all that he would have been capable of killing someone when he was a teenager. I've also no doubt at all that he would have felt no remorse.

I doubt this condition is that rare, it's just that very few people with it actually end up causing serious harm to others, and the majority "grow out of it".

My brother isn't normal, by any stretch of the imagination, but he is safe enough to live a fairly normal life, albeit one devoid of empathy for others. I suspect many of us know people who lack empathy, and some believe they should be given labels to define them as being different. I'm not convinced that labelling people when they are young is a good thing, as people can, and do, change as they mature. They may not become "normal", but most can become safe and useful members of society.

goudie
4th Nov 2014, 22:03
There are plenty of cases of horrific murders by psychopathic children.
The killers of James Bulgar comes to mind for one. And there are plenty of others
I don't think the medical profession ever comes up with a satisfactory explanations as to what the causes are.

G-CPTN
4th Nov 2014, 22:34
Part of growing up (in society) is learning what is acceptable behaviour (just as one trains a dog). Left unchecked, a child will scream and kick (and probably bite) and fight to get their own way - so at heart we all start out with the potential to be savages (just as dogs will, if unchecked, fight among themselves for domination - though a few will automatically remain submissive).

I'm sure that we all knew of children in primary school (and, maybe, even secondary school) who seemed set for a life of rebellion and, maybe, crime.

What seems unusual in this case, is that to all accounts, this child was well-behaved in general (ie not an aggressive tearaway) apart from his fixation with this teacher. It is possible that he realised that she would not give in to him and let him have his way - though there doesn't appear to have been similar problems with his parents or other people.

I had a nephew who was rebellious (there were reasons within his family - his mother died when he was a toddler), and the situation escalated at secondary school with a particular teacher who told the headmaster "Either he goes or I do . . . "
His father summed it up - "There's nothing wrong with Xxxx - as long as he gets his own way."
I would add that after the death of his mother, my mother (his grandmother) took him in to live with us for a few years until his father remarried (there were three other children - one of which died). Although my mother might have been 'easy' on him (for understandable reasons), she had successfully raised three children herself, none of which were anything other than well-behaved and 'normal'.
Xxxx was (and is) moody and 'difficult' if challenged - but he never became an addict - he now trains 'tower crane' operators.
The school situation was resolved by total separation of Xxxx with that teacher - by changing subjects.

G-CPTN
4th Nov 2014, 22:39
The killers of James Bulgar comes to mind for one.
And there are plenty of others.
I don't think the medical profession ever comes up with a satisfactory explanations as to what the causes are.
One of the psychiatrists who originally assessed Thompson and Venables admitted recently that he wrongly predicted which of the two would re-offend after release.

mad_jock
5th Nov 2014, 06:41
Those two are prime examples.

One of whom is now degree qualified and is apparently living a normal life which a large number of people wish to end.

Used to work with a bloke whose previous career was a nurse/warden in Broadmoor looking after that cray brother and the others.

He used to post on here but it would be unfair to name him.

I found it highly interesting in the cruise to hear about the differences between the different people we have read about in the papers.

It definitely seems that each one is individual within a sub set. And something makes them different to the rest of us. Some it was the up bring linked to instability and other no explanation at all. Apparently completely different to just the hard violent criminals, if the violent crims had managed to swing a physic gig they didn't last very long with the real phyco's. Within days they were trying to get away from little silent type blokes who had already started getting into their heads shit scared.

The majority of the really strange ones are actually quite intelligent aka Hannibal lecter, Rosemary west is apparently one that breaks the mould as she is thick as pig poo.

I presume this is the reason why they rack the numbers up without getting caught.

I think to be honest it doesn't matter what happens human variation is going to produce people like this occasionally which nobody can explain why they are what they are. Just the same as we get the occasional physical birth defect of limbs etc.

What to do with them I really don't have a clue. Apparently they have degree qualified engineers and architects in the system who continue to work inside.

When it comes down to more than one working together we have all known manipulative types. What to do with the person that has been manipulated. The Bulgar case seems so far to be an example of this. And I also suspect the moors murders was the same. In fact Ian Brady seems to continue to manipulate everyone in continuing his perversion.

I can completely understand peoples horror that it appears in the Bulgar case that the kids have seemed to have escaped their background and gained benefit from their actions, due to the fact that he has been exposed to a higher quality education than their local peers. But the kids have used it and put the work in themselves. And it also appears that Thompson is as normal as he can be and not expected to cause issues in the future as long as nobody outs him and someone murders him.

If that does happen what to do with that murderer?

Personally I am glad I have no input into what to do with them.

Its an emotive subject and very had to step away from personal opinion and give a balanced view on it.

Brady I wouldn't spend a second of thought on if they said they were bring back the death sentence to remove him from the earth. The two 10 year old kids at the time I would have an issue with.

mad_jock
5th Nov 2014, 10:15
you might find that some of them agree with you.

Curious Pax
5th Nov 2014, 10:33
so at heart we all start out with the potential to be savages

Later to be manifested in some by contemplating ways to kill teenagers on anonymous bulletin boards!

It's right that kids who carry out these crimes are confined (not necessarily prison, but something secure) until they can be assessed as safe for release, though you would expect that those doing the assessing would err more towards caution than they would with lesser crimes. However as VP959 has outlined, teenagers are more likely than most to change over the course of (in this case) 20 years, and are therefore more deserving of a chance to remedy their behavious than older folks.

jindabyne
5th Nov 2014, 11:14
Sallyann

we all applaud a person like the teacher who was murdered, and we hate a person like the boy who killed her. But these are just two extremes of a particular human condition

Two extremes??!! Surely there was only one who was, putting it mildly, extreme. The teacher was, along with most humans, perfectly normal!

Curious,

No. He needs, and deserves, a long sleep. All of this analysis on here is considered and compassionate, and has a place in our society: but wholly misplaced in this case, IMHO. Doubtless some will readily challenge me to say which cases would I judge otherwise, and why. I have no objective answer, but I believe in my subjectivity. Isn't that what judges are about, sometimes? (FL)

mad_jock
5th Nov 2014, 11:26
So even if he has a brain tumour which could be fixed you still want to kill him?

goudie
5th Nov 2014, 11:41
Deeply disturbing psychopathic behaviour of a 15 year old (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/550575-deeply-disturbing-psychopathic-behaviour-15-year-old.html)and a few ppruners too, reading some of these posts.

Effluent Man
5th Nov 2014, 11:58
.I wonder if anyone on here wold still advocate execution if it was proved that his actions were the result of a medical condition like a brain tumour.But is that so much different from a psychopathic personality.Both are completely beyond the control of the person who has them.So what about paedophilia? And where do you stop? ...just asking.

Wyler
5th Nov 2014, 12:32
I stopped listening to the radio and watching the TV yesterday. Got sick and tired of the legions of bleeding heart Liberals talking about this lad and how he is as much a victim as the teacher he killed. Not once did any of these spare a thought for the teachers family or the parents of the boy concerned. These people will live through sheer hell every waking moment for the rest of their lives. Let's spare them a thought and talk about their issues for a change.
As for the boy himself, obviously if he has a medical condition then he deserves treatment. If he does not then dispose of him quickly and humanely. Revenge? Yep. Also save the taxpayers a shed load of money feeding and housing 'it'.

mad_jock
5th Nov 2014, 13:59
Wyler I can't be doing with that bollocks either.

goudie
5th Nov 2014, 14:07
then dispose of him quickly and humanely.

Really Wyler? My earlier post is proving to be correct.

There are quite a few adults who would merit execution too, but we have moved on in the last 50 years and quite a few more when it comes to executing children.

vulcanised
5th Nov 2014, 15:18
we have moved on in the last 50 years


Moved on, or just in a different direction?

Flying Lawyer
5th Nov 2014, 15:31
jindabyne
Isn't that what judges are about, sometimes? (FL) Based upon my 40 years' experience in the courts, extremely rarely. Lawyers who become judges have already spent many years setting aside personal views and making objective assessments and decisions. It becomes as instinctive as many aspects of, for example, a professional pilot's work.

==========


I make no comment about the case being discussed but by way of general comments -

Many of the criminals I have prosecuted and defended had no regard for the lives of others, and some could fairly be described as evil.
In more recent years, in a different capacity, I regularly encounter people who have done the most dreadful things - sometimes so awful that, if one didn't know the circumstances, it would be impossible to comprehend how anyone could do such things to another human being. However, they didn't do those things because they are evil but because they were suffering from a mental illness/disorder.

I chair Mental Health Tribunals which review the cases of patients detained at Broadmoor, the high security psychiatric hospital. In many instances the hearings are very similar to an ordinary meeting - the level of security in the tribunal room varies according to the patient's condition. On other occasions, not many, they are too dangerous to be brought to us so we go to their ultra high security ward. They are not evil; they are very ill. That is why they are detained in hospital and receive treatment, not punished. On average, people sent to Broadmoor spend about five years there before being transferred to a medium security psychiatric hospital when it is considered appropriate - after painstaking consideration of extensive evidence. Some relapse and are returned. Some never leave Broadmoor because they remain severely mentally disordered and, in consequence, very dangerous.

I can readily understand why opinions differ about whether those I described in the first category should be executed if they have murdered.
I am unable to understand how anyone can think that someone suffering from mental illness/disorder should be executed.


If anyone is interested, there will be a documentary about Broadmoor on ITV at 9pm this evening.

Broadmoor: First ever look inside the high security hospital for Britain's most notorious criminals (http://www.itv.com/news/2014-11-03/inside-broadmoor-unprecedented-look-inside-the-high-security-hospital-for-britains-most-notorious-criminals/)


FL

rgbrock1
5th Nov 2014, 15:51
Flying Lawyer:

Interesting synopsis: thanks.

quick question. Aren't both 'Jack the Ripper'* and the 'Yorkshire Ripper' housed in Broadmoor?

*'Jack the Ripper WAS housed there I believe, considering he was active in the late 19th century!

mad_jock
5th Nov 2014, 15:57
yep my ex work colleague knew one of them.

I forget which one, but one of them is chemically castrated and is blind because other prisoners had stabbed his eyes out with pens.

Flying Lawyer
5th Nov 2014, 17:24
rgbrock1

I'm not at liberty to answer your question - not even names of those whose cases I've had to consider.


mad_jock my ex work colleague knew one of them
I doubt if he knew 'Jack the Ripper'.
How old is/was your colleague?!?

The rest of what you say is partially correct.


FL

mad_jock
5th Nov 2014, 17:46
I couldn't remember which one it was :D

Its what ever one Peter Sutcliffe was. Don't worry he didn't go into any details only what has been publically released. It was more about what it was like inside the place generally. ie not a prison as such but a secure hospital for the mentally ill patents. I got the feeling there was defined statements about certain famous ones that they could use. Because looking at the Wikipedia just now its remarkably similar if not contains more than he said.

Sounds like the staff there are quite special people. And its a NHS hospital which was the surprising thing for me.

I might have it wrong about the chemical castration bit or I had heard that somewhere else linked to him more than likely that stuff recently about the Guvnor. It was years ago.

west lakes
5th Nov 2014, 18:56
I might have it wrong about the chemical castration bit or I had heard that somewhere else linked to him more than likely that stuff recently about the Guvnor. It was years ago. Though sadly it is also one of the treatments for prostate cancer, so the reason may be not what is thought.

Going back the the subject of the thread, it is true to say that younger people do really struggle to come to terms with diabetes, particularly if it is type 1, which is treated by insulin injection.
They struggle to be "different" from their peers and the regime of blood sugar testing, restrictions on their diets and the need to plan more ahead before undertaking activity.

So, yes, I can understand in some ways him reacting badly to this and suffering from some degree of mental illness. Does it justify his actions? I very much doubt it.

(P.S. to avoid any doubt I suffer from both of the above medical conditions)

Wyler
5th Nov 2014, 19:04
Goudie.

Depends on your definition of 'child'.
Assuming he is not sick. He planned, bragged and carried out this act. He was pleased with himself. Still is.
Hope he comes and lives next to you, and not me, when he is released.

My thought are with his family, and the family of the teacher.

goudie
5th Nov 2014, 19:14
Hope he comes and lives next to you, and not me, when he is released.Thanks for the kind and generous thought:rolleyes: but I'll be long gone by then!

Loose rivets
5th Nov 2014, 19:51
I've decided I was unwise to post at this stage. Perhaps at a more appropriate time I'll try to publish on how a loving, hardworking man can be altered so radically by psychological bullying.

mad_jock
6th Nov 2014, 06:08
Well it looks like you friends kid is in safe hands rivets and they may be able to sort him out.

And thanks FL for posting a link so I could watch it.

Makes me grateful for what I have.

Worrals in the wilds
6th Nov 2014, 08:30
Awful thing to happen. :sad:
I think many people would like to believe that a fifteen year old was incapable of such an act. I guess they're wrong. If he were an adult the murder probably wouldn't have attracted so much publicity, although it would still be a dreadful crime; it's his age that has drawn attention to it.

I know there's a POV that minors over fourteen should be treated more lightly by the courts, but it's not a POV I agree with, not when the intent can be proven and there is no evidence of a mental disorder. However, (correct me if I'm wrong, it's just an impression I've gotten from some of the previous posts) there seems to be a feeling that he should be treated more harshly because of his age, and I don't agree with that either.

mad_jock
6th Nov 2014, 09:07
Worrals its worth trying to watch that Broadmoor program.

One of the nurses said that he could pretty much predict seeing a child at age 5 if he was going to have problems later in life.

And one of the doctors put it quite well the fact most of these people have a triple wammy.

1. They are genetically prone to mental health issues.
2. They are exposed to a poor childhood
3. A lot of the time they themselves are victims of abuse.

I think alot of us are never really exposed to people with mental health issues. We can't really relate to what's out there.

Hats off to the people that work there.

Pinky the pilot
6th Nov 2014, 09:24
Re the subject of this thread;

A length of pre-stretched rope

A trapdoor

Problem solved!:ok:

And yes, I'd pull the lever. Without hesitation.

onetrack
6th Nov 2014, 09:43
The 15 yr old kid in the link below strapped a huge hunting knife to his back, went to school and then brutally murdered his 16 yr old ex-girlfriend in the schoolgrounds.

He served 22 yrs of a life sentence and was released back into the community on parole. He has gained tertiary education and now holds down a regular job.

The questions I would like answered;

1. I wonder how many people who work with him, know what he did? (none, I'll wager).

2. If he presented himself as your daughters suitor and you managed to find out his history - would you be happy to let him become your SIL? :suspect:

To my mind, anyone who is capable of planning and carrying out a premeditated murder has forfeited all their rights to live in our society - forever.
A life sentence should be just that. They should never taste freedom ever again.

The victims families deserve to know that the murderer has destroyed his life, just as he has destroyed the victims life, and the victims families lives.

The released murderer gets his freedom, enjoys life, can marry, have children, earn wealth, and enjoy all the luxuries that life offers. The victim can't.
That feature alone should be the major deciding factor in the punishment.

15 yr old killer released after 22 yrs - Perth Now (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/vicky-groves-killer-to-be-released-after-22-years-in-jail/story-fnhocxo3-1226780823281)

Pinky the pilot
6th Nov 2014, 09:47
onetrack; My opinion re your post; Refer to my preceding post.

Some people are just plain evil!

tony draper
6th Nov 2014, 09:49
It was King Alfred who first issued a statement saying that people under ten years of ago should not be hanged,but it was just advice not a order.
:uhoh:

Effluent Man
6th Nov 2014, 09:56
A thought occurs to me: Those who advocate hanging these people most likely have some psychopathic tendencies themselves.You would most likely have to have to kill.I would probably include myself in their number because I could envisage situations where I might.

A friend of mine had a poem in German on his wall.His father took it from the office of the Kommandant in a liberated concentration camp in 1945 and it is of human skin.His father was a kind,gentle man and the men under his command summarily executed several of the camp guards."I felt a bit bad that I didn't stop them" was apparently all he said.

Worrals in the wilds
6th Nov 2014, 10:00
Tony, in Australia (and I believe the same applies in England) the common law is that a child under ten cannot be deemed to have criminal intent. Presumably that dates from the King Albert you mention. For a child between the age of ten and fourteen there is a presumption that they lack the ability to formulate criminal intent (doli incapax), though that can be rebutted by the Crown, as I believe happened in the Bulger Case.

This child is older than that, so doli incapax does not apply; the only difference is potentially in sentencing and place of incarceration, i.e. a child cannot be sent to an adult prison (and IMO, nor should they be, although they should be incarcerated). FL, feel free to correct me if I've messed that up. :ok:

Mad jock, I will do just that, but not tonight. I'm having a selfishly cheery evening watching The Simpsons on telly, enjoying the first summer storm and ignoring the world's darker issues:\. Thanks again to FL for posting the link.
One of the nurses said that he could pretty much predict seeing a child at age 5 if he was going to have problems later in life. I have a cousin like that. The proverbial black sheep :(. He served a number of years as a serious violent offender (armed robbery) and while he's stayed out of prison since, he's still a PITA. His two siblings are well adjusted, nice people, but cousin R has always been a problem; he was a problem at age 5 and he's still a problem now.

He has significant mental issues, and we continue to support him as best we can, but... yeah. I think the nurse is correct. That said, for all his carry-on he's never callously murdered somone, and I don't think he has it in him. TBQH he's never been all that violent, for all his threats. This kid is in a different league.

mad_jock
6th Nov 2014, 10:41
I have worked with people that have gone up behind someone and slit there throat.

Planned days in advance.

They even got paid to do it.

But the prime minster authorised it, so that's fine.

After the last period with the middle east wars we more than likely have the highest number of people killers in the UK since the second world war. A large percentage of them with mental health issues now that they would have been unlikely to have to the same degree if it wasn't for their experiences.

Worrals in the wilds
6th Nov 2014, 11:02
But the prime minster authorised it, so that's fine. Justifiable...a strange concept, when you think about it.
A large percentage of them with mental health issues now that they would have been unlikely to have to the same degree if it wasn't for their experiences. We have them here, too :sad:. Many damaged people are returning from conflict. Of course this isn't a new thing; there were plenty of WW1/2/ Vietnam vets who returned home and drank themselves to death, in the absence of better treatment. Even the better treatment available now doesn't always patch up the damage. People go off to fight, see (and do) unspeakable things, then are expected to come home and re-adjust to the daily grind without a murmur. IME it doesn't always work out that way.

rgbrock1
6th Nov 2014, 14:16
Worrals wrote:

People go off to fight, see (and do) unspeakable things, then are expected to come home and re-adjust to the daily grind without a murmur. IME it doesn't always work out that way.

Well I for one did. And I've never had the impulse to sneak up behind someone and slit their throat. Then again, psyches are psyches and each one different. But I do think it has a lot to do with the strength of ones Will.

Solid Rust Twotter
6th Nov 2014, 14:28
Can't argue with that, Mr Rock. Around '94 we had an outbreak of tearful storemen and clerks all running to the tabloid rags and claiming PTSD, while the hairy arsed spear carriers looked on in a bemused fashion. I know of a couple of blokes who have been diagnosed with it, but they were more or less carried in kicking and screaming and refuse to accept they're broken. That said, they're pretty normal family types if you ask me.

Been accused of it myself, but the accuser was a hairy legged lentil knitter psychobabble student whose religion forbade showering and using soap, so I laughingly took it from whence it came.

rgbrock1
6th Nov 2014, 14:32
Been accused of it myself, but the accuser was a hairy legged lentil knitter psychobabble student whose religion forbade showering and using soap, so I laughingly took it from whence it came.

And undoubtedly wearing a pink tutu, no? :}

Solid Rust Twotter
6th Nov 2014, 14:40
Nope. Very earnest student type in granny glasses and tie dyed kit trying desperately hard to relive the '60s, despite being born 30 years too late. Got quite annoyed when she wasn't taken seriously.

No ranger tabs visible, so I wasn't expecting the pink tutu.:}

rgbrock1
6th Nov 2014, 14:51
SRT:

None of this then? :}:}:}

http://images.counselheal.com/data/images/full/5190/pink-tutu.jpg

http://i1.cpcache.com/product_zoom/413546064/ranger_tab_rectangle_decal.jpg?height=250&width=250&padToSquare=true

mad_jock
6th Nov 2014, 14:57
Well I for one did. And I've never had the impulse to sneak up behind someone and slit their throat.

You need to clarify that with "yet" on the end.

Few years down the line or a bang to the head you might be different.

Now if it happens is it to be into a hospital to try and fix you or euthanasia?

There are still para's committing suicide from being involved in the Falklands war.

Apparently the Royal Marines have less of a problem with thier veterans. They think its because the Royals came home by boat and the para's flew home.

MagnusP
6th Nov 2014, 14:59
RGB: what's with the selfie?

rgbrock1
6th Nov 2014, 15:19
Magnus:

took it this morning to let SRT know I"m thinking of him!!!!!

Solid Rust Twotter
6th Nov 2014, 15:42
...to let SRT know I"m thinking of him!


Explains the itch between my shoulder blades.:}

rgbrock1
6th Nov 2014, 15:49
SRT wrote:

Explains the itch between my shoulder blades.

Well, better than an itch between your balls. That would be highly inflammatory. :}:}

goudie
6th Nov 2014, 16:01
Do I sense a blossoming cyber romance in the offing?:)

rgbrock1
6th Nov 2014, 16:58
Nah, goudie. SRT wouldn't be able to handle me anyway. And especially not when I don my pink tutu. :}:E Besides, long-distance relationships never really work anyway. Sorry SRT. :E:}

racedo
6th Nov 2014, 16:58
Cornick was diagnosed with diabetes aged 12.
The condition meant he could not fulfil his ambition of joining the military.

Think how much damage could he have done in the military with a personality like thta, reality is he probably would have washed out early.

racedo
6th Nov 2014, 17:20
They think its because the Royals came home by boat and the para's flew home.

In many ways that would have helped because you have weeks with colleagues to get it out of your system rather than one day in a battlezone and then next day at home with great welcome.

A week later your mind and body are in different places as wife wants you to deal with gas man fixing the broken boiler.

Perhaps instead of flying people directly back from next conflict they are sent to an R&R camp for 3 weeks to get it out of their system before returning home.

goudie
6th Nov 2014, 17:24
Perhaps instead of flying people directly back from next conflict they are sent to an R&R camp for 3 weeks to get it out of their system before returning home.

Wouldn't have worked with WW2 Bomber crews!

racedo
6th Nov 2014, 17:33
A good friend in the US is a specialist at head injury cases, he is anti Death penalty and has met countless individuals on death row over the years.

One case he described was an African American male who had brutally murdered a couple of people, caught and sent to death row quickly.

He got involved a lot later when looking at an appeal against the death sentence.

Said guy was raped within his family from an early age, continually beaten and was his cousins boyfriend at 10, violence was all he ever saw along with abuse. Subseqently carried out the robbery and horrific murders.

Lots of tests carried out on him including seeing what his abilities were, he had mental ability of a child, there was no type of right or wrong reasoning nor any self control over his actions and pretty much his head was a total :mad: up mess. In short mentally ill because of a long history of physical abuse and have not commented on the alcohol or substance abuse from an early age.

Challenged my friend did he want him free to do so again.

He said the answer from his client was "I feel that even were I free I believe I would do something horrible again".

He was not seeking his freedom rather his removal from death row and life long treatment within prison as some who is suffering from a mental illness which will never be cured.

Mechta
6th Nov 2014, 17:34
Quote:
They think its because the Royals came home by boat and the para's flew home.
In many ways that would have helped because you have weeks with colleagues to get it out of your system rather than one day in a battlezone and then next day at home with great welcome.

A week later your mind and body are in different places as wife wants you to deal with gas man fixing the broken boiler.

Perhaps instead of flying people directly back from next conflict they are sent to an R&R camp for 3 weeks to get it out of their system before returning home.

Supposedly a problem with UAV pilots. They watch the bad guy for hours, if not days, at a time; a lot of which may be day to day family activity. Eventually they take him out with a whizz bang, switch off the monitor and drive a few miles down the road to the wife and kids and normal domestic life. Next morning, back into work to watch and kill the next bad guy.

racedo
6th Nov 2014, 17:35
Wouldn't have worked with WW2 Bomber crews!

But bearing in mind they flying x thousand feet above the fray was it as bad an issue as the grunts on the ground.

In USAF case there would be 2-3 weeks from flying before they got home.

mad_jock
6th Nov 2014, 17:58
Think how much damage could he have done in the military with a personality like thta, reality is he probably would have washed out early

Maybe or he might actually feel as if he is in a secure controlled environment and been able to sort his head out.

There was a prog about the Royal Marines Basic training course not that long ago on UK telly.

They had on site specialists to deal with solders who came in with mental baggage. And it certainly seemed they had no intention of getting shot of them if they could help it.

goudie
6th Nov 2014, 17:59
was it as bad an issue as the grunts on the ground.

Probably not in one sense but seeing and hearing crews being blasted out of the sky plus your own crew being shot up was, as we now know, was extremely stressful, then it's back to (almost) normality... till the next night!

rgbrock1
6th Nov 2014, 18:56
It can get read bad for the "grunts on the ground." Real bad.

con-pilot
6th Nov 2014, 19:26
But bearing in mind they flying x thousand feet above the fray was it as bad an issue as the grunts on the ground.

In USAF case there would be 2-3 weeks from flying before they got home.

Also keep in mind that the 8th Air Force in Europe during World War Two had a higher causality rate than the US Marines in the entire Pacific Theater during World War Two.

Flying Lawyer
6th Nov 2014, 22:53
Worrals in the wildsIn Australia (and I believe the same applies in England) the common law is that a child under ten cannot be deemed to have criminal intent.

For a child between the age of ten and fourteen there is a presumption that they lack the ability to formulate criminal intent (doli incapax), though that can be rebutted.

Both the presumption and the defence of doli incapax have been abolished in England.


mad jock
And thanks FL for posting a link so I could watch it.
Makes me grateful for what I have.

Me too. The Clinical Director summed it up very well: “It’s very easy to see somebody as either a perpetrator or a victim. It’s much more difficult to understand that somebody might be both.”

I thought it gave a valuable insight into the challenging work they do at Broadmoor. I was surprised they were allowed to film in the ultra high security ward I described in my previous post but impressed that it was allowed.


FL

Worrals in the wilds
6th Nov 2014, 23:00
Cheers, I knew I'd mess it up somehow. :\ It's still valid down here.
So how are 10-14 year old children treated within the English system? Are there any allowances made for their age?

Flying Lawyer
7th Nov 2014, 11:10
In very brief summary:

Those between 10 and 17 are dealt with by youth courts (save in exceptional circumstances), given different sentences if convicted and, if they receive a custodial sentence, are sent to secure centres for young people.


FL

racedo
7th Nov 2014, 12:13
Probably not in one sense but seeing and hearing crews being blasted out of the sky plus your own crew being shot up was, as we now know, was extremely stressful, then it's back to (almost) normality... till the next night!

True but they know they still on front line so to speak, its when they got back stateside, was it as bad then ?

bcgallacher
7th Nov 2014, 22:43
These kind of crimes are completely unpredictable,there are many people go through life being odd but completely harmless.Similarly how often do you hear after a particularly horrific crime ' he was such a nice polite boy' etc. mentally disturbed criminals are released into the community by doctors sure they will not offend further,they then go on to commit the same kind of crime. If predicting future behaviour is beyond the professionals ability what chance does the amateur have.If confining those who do not conform to the norm is the answer a large proportion of our citizenry would be affected - including quite a few of us who post on JB!

Fantome
8th Nov 2014, 01:59
Re the subject of this thread;

A length of pre-stretched rope

A trapdoor

Problem solved!

And yes, I'd pull the lever. Without hesitation.


Pinky . . .. . you know it is not as simple as that. And you know that
one of the reasons for the abolishment of capital punishment is that it
has been shown time and again that innocents have been convicted and
killed by the state. If you in all seriousness propose that due process
be scrapped in certain cases then that mindset is only a small remove from the advocation of lynch law.

Crime and punishment is a huge and complex subject with myriad branches. If the distasteful aspects of living in those societies we do become too odious to bear then there is a case for either finding a Shangri-La, if such exists, or adopting the detached life of a hermit. Hermits were once all the rage you know .. . . see Edith Sitwell's 'English Eccentrics'.

mad_jock
8th Nov 2014, 03:12
FL I realise you may not be able to comment.

But do you legal types get some form of introduction to all this stuff or is it purely on the job training so to speak and experience.?

ie A young blogs gets handed a file and told the client is in xxxxx hospital.

Fantome
9th Nov 2014, 06:19
Nah, goudie. SRT wouldn't be able to handle me anyway. And especially not when I don my pink tutu. Besides, long-distance relationships never really work anyway. Sorry SRT. -

SO SAYS rgb (red? green? Blue?)

says I . .. . . a long-distance relationship or an arm's length one
can result in a stiff . . .. . . arm

says I too . .. . . re. an itch between the shoulder blades . . .
... .. . she once said that the irritation between her toes
was hardly bearable . .. when pressed . . she
confessed . . . between my BIG TOES

it can be lonely out here in the corridor . . sir. .
here endeth salacious diversion

Solid Rust Twotter
9th Nov 2014, 07:10
Handle a ranger? Too easy. Shut down the ice cream machine and they go tits up in about two hours.

After that you just keep them in the usual way, making sure the cage is cleaned every day and the water bowl filled with beer. Be careful when letting them out for exercise. They tend to run away if not on a leash, but can usually be found with noses pressed up against the display window at the nearest ballet clothing emporium.

rgbrock1
10th Nov 2014, 13:14
SRT wrote:

they go tits up in about two hours.

I'll ignore the other stuff you wrote but I have noted your inclusion of the word "tits." (SRT wrote "tits", tee-hee) I like that. :}:E:ok:

vulcanised
15th Nov 2014, 12:52
Talking of psycopathic kids, has anyrhing been heard about trial or sentence for that reptile who killed 60 dogs?