Command Training Program and Duration

[titaniumwings]

Hi,

Am interested to learn about the different command training programs between airlines.

From what I have learned the one with SQ is roughly about 9 to 11 months, about 5 LOAs, 2 Base Checks, 6 Line Checks and over 90 line training sectors. They say it is one of the longest in the industry. Is it true?

Anyone care to share other experience?

Thank you very much for sharing.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

My first command course was rather concise by comparison:
- 3 days groundschool
- 2 sim sessions + checkride
- 12 sectors line training (done in 3 days, linecheck included)
Then I was on my own - it was "sink, or swim"... :E

[MCDU2]

At most airlines it starts from your initial interview as a copilot in effect.

[RAT 5]

MC: read the thread about 1500hr requirements for RHS for the future and how your bum in the RHS can be bought for much dish today. You might re-think your comment. However, at my time of entry your idea was indeed the case.

[Track]

12 sectors initial training in right-seat acting as captain under supervision
2 FFS sessions basic faillure management / evaluation
6 FFS sessions followed by FFS check
5 day CRM course / 2 days performance course / 5 days groundschool
minimum 20 sector linetraining and line check.

[Offchocks]

It was a while ago now, I did a type conversion course and then went straight into a two month command training course containing the following:

9 training FFS followed by a Check
18 training sectors
4 sector Check
Final FFS Check
5 sector Pre-Final Check
6 sector Final Check
Followed by a "many beers" celebration with the crew! :)

[slr737]

Also quite a while ago but was for a major airlines at that time :

- few days of ground school
- Full type rating from the left seat with a FO doing his initial type rating
- 100 hours of line training
- During line training for 4 sim checks including ATPL check, all as loft.
- 2 legs line check + about 2hours of question on all required documentation (OM A, ...)

[titaniumwings]

It is indeed an eye-opener to see the various programs for command training. Thank you so much for sharing.

In particular it is interesting to see that performance and failure-management sims are also a great highlight. I can really see the value of these.

I am just wondering how is the line training conducted? I hear that in some Orient airlines it is actually more about checking for any negative trends or weakness, not much training really.

Thanks a lot again guys.



ps: seems like SQ really has one of the longest program. Nonetheless relationship between duration and quality is never established. Did hear also that their failure rate is relatively high though.

[polax52]

Command course at Saudia is around 12 months for initial. I don't know what it involves but the pass rate for direct entry command seems to be around 40%(my experience was 3 passed out of 7).

[titaniumwings]

Saudi is then longest and "toughest" (by failure rates) so far. I think this is harder than the SQ one's.

[McNugget]

I don't think you can judge the toughest command course based on the experiences of DEC hiring. There are lots of factors at play in that instance, and certainly doesn't make it a 'harder' course...

To my knowledge, CX and SQ have the longest command UPGRADE courses. Failure rate at both is quite high, though if what's written here is true, the SQ course is a bit longer.

[titaniumwings]

You know that I agree with you. "Toughest" and "hardest" is always relative and subjective. There are variables even within the different courses in the same company.

I also heard of the "tough" CX training. Really wish to know how is CX course for comparison. Wonder whether there are similarities to BA's. I have no means to verify but I heard there is a significant influence from BA as there may be a sizeable number of British pilots especially in the beginning.

Thank you for taking the effort in sharing, learning and not be too critical with me.

[McNugget]

No problem.

My point regarding Saudia DEC failure rate is not subjective, but highlighting the fact that if you're hired as a direct entry Captain, the failure rate is not necessarily a product of how tough it is (although I'm sure it is), it is also affected by the fact that DEC trainees may be operating in a very different style to what they were used to. As opposed to the BA/CX/QF etc command trainees who have been with the company for many years as FOs.

So, it is not a fair comparison. A fair comparison would be to assess the course length and failure rate for Saudia FOs upgrading to Captain.

The CX system is not very similar to that used by BA. Perhaps it once was, but from friends at BA, it doesn't sound much like the CX system at all. CX is along the same lines as SQ, but not quite as long. Many checks along the way.

[7Q Off]

In 2008 my upgrade was

7 FFS
1 FFS - Line check
1 FFS - Typerating by Civil Aviation
1 FSS - LOFT

optional 2 more FSS if the instructor wanted or if you ask, no questions asked.

100 to 150 hs with instructor on the right seat (2 to 4 months of flying)

1 Final Line check

Then you are on your OWN. Fair and simple. If you were an FO on the same aircraft you upgrade only 4 FSS. 70 to 80% success aprox

Now they change the upgrade course.

4FFS
1 line check
4 FSS
1 Line check
4 FSS
final Line check
1 FSS with civil aviation for typerating
1 FSS cat 2/3 with civil aviation

no mater if you were an FO on the same Type rating.

between 100 to 300 hs depend on previous experience. 2 line checks before final line checks.

A pain in the butt, after that you are a space shuttle captain. now 60 to 70 % off success.

[titaniumwings]

A friend just relayed the program in TR:

Normally 2-3 months fr ground school to line check.
5 SIM sessions. 4th session is a LOFT. 5th session is base check.
50 sectors in 2 phases.
Command line check is 4 sectors.

It is interesting to see how different airlines have different approaches.

Thanks guys for sharing.

[titaniumwings]

Thank you for enlightening McNugget. =)

Just something I have learned. The failure rate for DEC in SQ was almost 0. Evaluation was done as to the suitability before hiring. Unless something drastically went wrong after the interview n simulator check usually it was just a familiarization on the left hand seat.

I was with the impression this is also the case with quite a number of airlines but maybe not Saudi.

Cheers.

[polax52]

Saudia has a selection process really just based on experience, if you meet the experience, can pass the medical and a basic selection simulator then you easily enter the company on a Probation period. During probation they do not have any hesitation to terminate your contract. Having said that if you are a reasonable Captain and you put in the required work then most probably you will pass. The guys I know that did not pass were generally distracted by something during training, this is fatal. Issues such as bringing family over too soon then issues with accommodation or schooling. Another one was getting his saudi driving license then importing his car. The moral really with Saudia is "stay focused".

[McNugget]

Sounds fair enough.

What are the DEC conditions like at Saudia, out of curiosity?