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421dog
2nd Nov 2014, 21:56
Please fix it prior to further cross-pond pontification:

Army Cadet Attacked With Makeshift Blowtorch While Selling Poppies (http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/11/02/Army-Cadet-Attacked-With-Makeshift-Blowtorch-in-Manchester-City-Centre)

Fox3WheresMyBanana
2nd Nov 2014, 22:06
and another one...

MPs to escape expenses investigations after paperwork destroyed by Parliament - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/11204405/MPs-to-escape-expenses-investigations-after-paperwork-destroyed-by-Parliament.html)

747 jock
2nd Nov 2014, 22:06
So on one hand there is a case where one youngster suffered minor burns following an attack in the UK and on the other hand there are an estimated 10,000 youngsters killed or injured by guns in the USA.

Thanks for allowing the subject to be brought up again.

mixture
2nd Nov 2014, 22:24
Meanwhile, in the last 24 hours in the USA.....

Washington School Shooting Fourth Student Dies
1 person dead in Colorado Springs shooting
One injured in shooting outside Anchorage hotel
One killed following double shooting early Sunday
Three wounded in shooting at Maplewood apartment
Saginaw police respond to shooting
One man was injured in an early morning shooting in Northeast Washington
Shooting at a barber shop in the Leimert Park
Homicide detectives investigating Dogtown shooting


.... and that's only the first 5 pages of Google news from the last 24 hours !

No school shootings yet, but hey ... its Sunday and a fresh month has only just started ! The October shooting month ended with a score of 5 deaths and 2 injuries.

I reckon the USA is still the one with the problems. :cool:

421dog
3rd Nov 2014, 00:46
Spin it how you want, but what most of the world fails to realize is that the places in the us where people do most of the killing are not functionally part of the first world.

We pay people enough that they won't work for fear of losing their benefits, make disability a career choice, and remove any stigma from living on the dole.
We further have in place a political system that somehow regards having more than 1/3 of the work-eligible population not working as an ok thing.

I've been to Somalia, and parts of Minneapolis aren't a heck of a lot different except for the snow.

The fact that we keep as much of a lid on our antisocial element as we do is a testament to the remaining g good people.

Hempy
3rd Nov 2014, 01:19
So in other words, you are telling us that parts of your great country are essentially third world shlt holes and those places are where all the murders take place? So in your WASP, walled, secure neighbourhood who are you defending yourself against?

You lot hold your Constitutional Rights as 'inviolable', but ignore the fact that there are many groups of people who can NOT legally own a firearm. Why aren't you fighting for THEIR constitutional rights? Surely the Government banning guns from people is an indication they've gone 'rogue'? Call in the Michigan Militia!

I don't see many Americans quoting the Declaration of Independence much these days. I think it needs an amendment..."We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal unless you are Black, Muslim, Hispanic, poor, etc'

galaxy flyer
3rd Nov 2014, 01:26
It says "created equal", not "are equal".

GF

421dog
3rd Nov 2014, 04:40
The chief of police in Detroit is on record as encouraging people who are elegible to arm themselves for the protection of themselves and the community at large.

Despite the mess that people in that end of the state have created, some are trying hard to fix things.

He's a strongly pro-union Democrat.

Oh, and he's black,
not that it makes any difference to any of us who live here.

Just wanted to poke another hole in the 'Michigan Militia' stereotype you all are promulgating

Hempy
3rd Nov 2014, 05:21
You really should try to arm everyone!

That policy seems to be working like an absolute treat for you!! Like I said, if guns protect you and make you safe, then America must be the safest goddamn' country on the planet!!!

Even when you do have (11,000) homicides, it's obviously the victims fault they gel shot. If they had been packing heat like any good patriot should things would have been different!!

:rolleyes: :ugh:

Andu
3rd Nov 2014, 05:57
I was in Sydney city on Saturday night and on the very crowed train, found myself standing beside a 20-something man who was wearing a Returned from Active Service badge on his coat lapel. My first reaction was that it had not occurred to me there must be quite literally thousands of young blokes of a similar age eligible to wear that badge - (which in my addled mind, has been something you only see old farts of my age and older wearing).

But then a second, not so warm and fuzzy feeling hit me - in fact, a distressing and highly unpalatable thought. The young bloke was announcing to everyone who knew what to look for that he is a serving (or recently ex-)serviceman, making himself a prime target for his "fellow citizens" who have been instructed by people they see as their spiritual leaders to kill any fellow citizen they choose to, but in particular, fellow citizens such as him.

How sad a comment, I thought, on what our society has become for that thought to come to my mind.Thanks entirely to the social engineering that has been foisted upon us by the political leadership of both sides, who think they know what's best for us - social engineering that has been proven conclusively not to work in the nations of Western Europe - this has become an accepted fact of life.

How long before ex-servicemen are instructed not to wear the RAS badge "lest it offend some in our society"? The government has already spent $600,000 on an investigation that found that the way we celebrate ANZAC Day (a sort of an Australian equivalent to Veterans' Day for American readers) does indeed offend some "Australians" belonging to the religion of peace and so should be "toned down" so as to lessen that perceived offence.

Krystal n chips
3rd Nov 2014, 06:11
"making himself a prime target for his "fellow citizens" who have been instructed by people they see as their spiritual leaders to kill any fellow citizen they choose to, but in particular, fellow citizens such as him.


That's about as unsubtle as it gets as to whom you are referring to.

However, I take it you weren't n the UK when the PIRA were active and whom I effect scored a propaganda victory which was long lasting in that military personnel were prohibited from wearing uniform in public for a very long time.

UniFoxOs
3rd Nov 2014, 06:59
WOW - a whole 2 posts before a thread is hijacked by gun control wankers who think they should run the world.

sitigeltfel
3rd Nov 2014, 07:17
Back on track....

"Understandably both he and his family are in a state of total shock and cannot believe someone would do this."I can believe it. There was another incident (http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/POPPY-ABUSE-Adelso-Saws-charged-Belper-cadet/story-23723025-detail/story.html) a few days before, and there will be more.
Unless we learn to be more ruthless and intolerant of their beliefs and actions they will get bolder.

Seldomfitforpurpose
3rd Nov 2014, 07:29
WOW - a whole 2 posts before a thread is hijacked by gun control wankers who think they should run the world.

Hijacked.......did you read the OP?

419
3rd Nov 2014, 09:17
WOW - a whole 2 posts before a thread is hijacked by gun control wankers who think they should run the world.

How can you honestly say that the thread was hijacked when the sole purpose of the opening post was to state that as there is crime in the UK then people shouldn't point fingers about problems in the USA?

If 421dog didn't want comparisons made between the two countries, why on earth post in the first place?

421dog
3rd Nov 2014, 11:36
I'm not trying to say that I have the answers.
I made the mistake of rising to the troll bait about guns, which didn't help the discussion to stay on track.


What I am saying is that a 15 y/o JROTC kid was attacked while he was engaged in an activity that just about any reasonable person would regard as laudable.

I worry for our collective future as members of Western Civilization when things like this happen, and I think that a response somewhat beyond "oh what a shame" is warranted.

I think we can all agree that the world would be the better for the universal villification of this action, and that we'd be better off applying ourselves to that end as opposed to beating each other up.

charliegolf
3rd Nov 2014, 11:44
Is the purpose of this tread to point out that America is a failed state because its citizens DON'T attack each other with improvised blow torches? Or am I missing something here?

CG

421dog
3rd Nov 2014, 12:12
I don't think anyone deserves to be treated in such a manner.

I'd like to know what is being done to bring the miscreant to justice and what plans exist to prevent it in the future.

We've got our own dirty laundry to wash, and I'm not at all certain that we're up to the task either.

I'm pretty sure that the answer doesn't involve us wasting time excoriating each other.

mixture
3rd Nov 2014, 12:42
I worry for our collective future as members of Western Civilization when things like this happen, and I think that a response somewhat beyond "oh what a shame" is warranted.

I'd like to know what is being done to bring the miscreant to justice and what plans exist to prevent it in the future.

So, in essence, you are saying that the USA is not a member of Western Civilisation because all you do when there are shootings is say "oh what a shame" and steadfastly refuse to do introduce de-minimis common-sense plans to prevent it happening in the future because your stupid second amendment is holier than god and nobody can touch the second amendment or introduce any legislation which may affect its interpretation.

The idiom "pot calling the kettle black" comes to mind, although in the case of the USA you are actually worse off by a country mile ! The USA's attitude to guns is quite frankly a joke.

pax britanica
3rd Nov 2014, 12:58
While all countries have problems in various ways I tend to think we should give the US a pass on its attitude to gun control. Personally I think it is crazy but its their country and unlike numerous other , fads , ideas, policies and fictions they do not endeavour to export that part of freedom and democracy US style to anyone else and so to the rest of us its pretty harmless unless we have to go there.

And I don't think I am wrong in thinking some of the most vehement defenders of the right to bear arms on this forum do not try and push the idea that the civilised world should follow suit.
PB

419
3rd Nov 2014, 13:03
I worry for our collective future as members of Western Civilization when things like this happen, and I think that a response somewhat beyond "oh what a shame" is warranted.

Where has anyone (either on this board or elsewhere) stated anything like "oh what a shame" in relation to the incident in question?

brickhistory
3rd Nov 2014, 14:42
Mustn't point out the second banana's faults.

Brings the insecurities to the fore and there's more than enough to occupy them as it is.

On the other hand, a continent-sized nation with six times the population but without the historical caste system simply must be instructed by "the more enlightened" so we can be more like them.

Despite the historical notion that the revolution ultimately came about because we didn't want to be like them.

Remnants of that spirit linger on still.

And, given the rates of emigration and immigration between the two, it is still drawing crowds.

radeng
3rd Nov 2014, 14:57
If I am not mistaken, (and for once I don't think I am) is it not a case that someone convicted of felony, domestic violence or some misdemeanours in the US is not generally allowed to legally be in possession of a firearm? I suspect there are other categories of people in the US who aren't supposed to be in possession of a weapon.

Now just how many of these US shootings are carried out by people who weren't entitled to have a gun? Restricting gun sales doesn't seem to have much effect in the UK, judging by the 2 - or was it 3? - UK shootings this weekend just gone by, so why would it in the US?

I cannot but feel that the problem is keeping the guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them, rather than those who would be responsible with them. Banning handguns doesn't seem to have worked that well in the UK.......

bcgallacher
3rd Nov 2014, 15:21
Radeng - I am beginning to think you are simple minded. Last year there were 51 deaths from gunshot wounds in the UK, in the same period in the US, a country with about 6 times the population you had about 30,000 and you say our handgun legislation is not working. If your system worked as well as ours you would have just over 300 deaths from gunshot wounds not much of a difference the way you do maths?

bcgallacher
3rd Nov 2014, 15:29
Radeng - you quote 2 or 3 shootings in the UK over the weekend - in the US on average each day 240 people will be admitted to A&E with gunshot wounds of which number 80 will die including an average of 8 minors. I think you should get out more.

radeng
3rd Nov 2014, 15:31
Sorry bcg, you are missing the point.

HOW many of the US shootings are with legally held weapons?

THAT is the question.

mixture
3rd Nov 2014, 16:13
HOW many of the US shootings are with legally held weapons?

THAT is the question.

Because of the US's stupidly relaxed gun laws (or rather lack thereof), I suspect you'll find pretty much all shootings in the US are with legally held weapons since there's no licensing, registration or training regime to speak of you can just waltz into your local supermarket and buy one off the shelf.

419
3rd Nov 2014, 16:16
HOW many of the US shootings are with legally held weapons?

THAT is the question.

I don't think that it makes the slightest bit of difference to the people that were killed, they are still dead.
Anyway, there is a good chance that many of the illegal weapons were legally held at some time in their history and became illegal following crimes in which they were stolen.

Seldomfitforpurpose
3rd Nov 2014, 17:17
Sorry bcg, you are missing the point.

HOW many of the US shootings are with legally held weapons?

THAT is the question.

Quite likely some were, but with regards to our shootings how many were carried out with legally held hand guns?

Point to note is that folk were being shot with illegal hand guns prior to the hand gun ban here in the UK :ok:

racedo
3rd Nov 2014, 18:27
So of those 11000 people who died in the US by firearms how many of those who died were killed by legally held weapons ? and killed by said owner of legally held weapon ?

MG23
3rd Nov 2014, 18:31
So on one hand there is a case where one youngster suffered minor burns following an attack in the UK and on the other hand there are an estimated 10,000 youngsters killed or injured by guns in the USA.

If you count teenage gang members and drug dealers as 'youngsters', you may right. Actually, I think some of those 'youngster' statistics include anyone under twenty-one. Pretty soon, they'll probably increase it to anyone under thirty, to make it seem even more scary.

radeng
3rd Nov 2014, 18:42
A friend now deceased (from cancer) was, before retirement, a very senior police officer in Norfolk. He told me that in seven years, in a county with 275,000 registered firearms (!) - I know, hard to believe the number but that is what he said - there were NO crimes attributable to legally held weapons. There were some shootings, though.....drugs gang led, and armed robberies.

It is possible that some of the illegal weapons used in the UK were legal at one time, but it is obviously now fairly easy to get a handgun illegally in the UK - probably easier than it used to be to get one legally.

The number of US shootings need to be split down, rather than some total waved around - for example, break out self defence, such as the 19 year old Oklahoma widow defending herself and her baby.

BTW, I didn't count the three shootings in Ulster in last weekend's total.

UniFoxOs
4th Nov 2014, 07:34
How can you honestly say that the thread was hijacked when the sole purpose of the opening post was to state that as there is crime in the UK then people shouldn't point fingers about problems in the USA?

And of course you took it to mean gun control, on which we already have 2 threads running and need another like a hole in the head.
I think the OP was saying "WHY DON'T YOU JUST STFU FOR A BIT"

With which sentiments I totally agree.

Seldomfitforpurpose
4th Nov 2014, 08:26
And of course you took it to mean gun control, on which we already have 2 threads running and need another like a hole in the head.
I think the OP was saying "WHY DON'T YOU JUST STFU FOR A BIT"

With which sentiments I totally agree.

A life time of experience shows me that when folk finally resort to STFU its generally because their argument is lost, not always but more often than not.

UniFoxOs
5th Nov 2014, 10:35
My argument is that hijacking threads into gun control hamsterwheels is simply a waste of bandwidth. If you think that argument is lost - so be it. If two threads are not enough why don't you start your own forum on gun control and let the rest of the JB'ers get on with taking the piss out of people.

racedo
5th Nov 2014, 11:45
If two threads are not enough why don't you start your own forum on gun control and let the rest of the JB'ers get on with taking the piss out of people.

You mean some people take JB SERIOUSLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

421dog
8th Nov 2014, 23:52
Hey, seriously, strong work on this Queen plot thing. I am happy you found the bastards.
http://i.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/63032523/queen-elizabeth-murder-plot-foiled
I'm also jealous that you have such a class act as your head of state. I am convinced that she'd keep a stiff upper lip and walk into damn near anything.

tony draper
9th Nov 2014, 08:37
It gets worse we now apparently have a outbreak of cannibalism. :uhoh:

Dushan
9th Nov 2014, 16:56
Hey, seriously, strong work on this Queen plot thing. I am happy you found the bastards.

I'm also jealous that you have such a class act as your head of state. I am convinced that she'd keep a stiff upper lip and walk into damn near anything.

Everyone knows she carries a brick in her purse, so if they came anywhere near her she'd whack them on the side of the head.

Of course she used to carry her service Webley until it was banned.

alwayzinit
9th Nov 2014, 17:26
The US suffers from a very large number of gun related killings.

What none of the posts so far have tried to break down the stats of those shootings.

How many shootings are carried out by using illegally held weapons? How many are entirely criminal against criminal? How many are concentrated in one ethnic grouping or another?

A quick google shows that there has been a marked reduction from the mid '90s to the present day.
A huge majority of shootings are carried out using illegally held weapons.
Most, 90%+ are criminal against criminal.
The vast majority are in one ethnic group...........

As a previous poster highlighted, all mass shootings have serious mental health aspects, yet little or nothing has changed in the treatment of the mentally ill. The mass shooting of innocents of course is tragic and headline grabbing but only makes up a small percentage of the total.

A blanket ban, similar to Australia, is economically impossible as it would impossible to fund. A ban would also be ignored by the criminals, after all they are criminals.

I believe that a debate on this subject should be held, however lets look at the facts not at what we would like to be true.

Dushan
9th Nov 2014, 17:45
As a previous poster highlighted, all mass shootings have serious mental health aspects, yet little or nothing has changed in the treatment of the mentally ill. The mass shooting of innocents of course is tragic and headline grabbing but only makes up a small percentage of the total.



Actually something has changed, but not in the positive way. You no longer can lock up the mentally ill as it goes against their human rights and civil liberties. You can thank the lefties for that.

John Hill
9th Nov 2014, 17:49
We can be quite sure that almost all the killings were with legally held or former legally held guns.

Dushan
9th Nov 2014, 17:54
How do you come up whit such gems, JH, when you can't even figure out who started the Korean War?

421dog
9th Nov 2014, 18:25
Really, I just felt the need to point out that, while y'all do have a problem, you did this unequivocally right and deserve credit for the operation and the public response.

I'm sorry the thread is degenerating into more firearms strife.

John Hill
9th Nov 2014, 19:34
I'm sorry the thread is degenerating into more firearms strife.

That's one of the problems with firearms, wherever they are strife tends to follow and wherever there are legally owned firearms there will soon be illegally owned firearms.

Dushan
9th Nov 2014, 22:22
Only if the lefties win. That's why we keep fighting. From my cold, dead hands...