Norwegian lays off 60 pilots

[flannagan]

On late friday afternoon, Norwegian has sent a notice to 60 pilots for termination of contract. Hopefully rehired in 2015. Application for B787 positions were offered. More news to follow...

[wind check]

More and more low cost airlines offer renewable seasonal contracts.

Low cost means low cost. ;)

[calypso]

Not always. In my experience Low Cost very often means low price but high(er) overall cost.

[Avenger]

People may not have liked where they stood in Ryanair but at least they knew " where they stood"! with this bunch it's a guessing game to be avoided, job security is nil, For all the shaking hands and kissing babies routine, they have managed to descend "underneath the barrel", re-hire in 2015! you must be kidding..good luck to the guys remaining.

[Iver]

Which pilot base impacted - LGW?

[captplaystation]

Could I suggest that we keep discussion about this development to this long-term thread

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/502355-norwegian-b737-pilot-selection-updated-36.html


People thinking of joining usually look on this one, this new thread will be gone & buried within weeks (if not days) and those thinking of joining need to be able to read back & know about this stuff before taking the plunge.

Thanks for understanding folks :ok:

[RAT 5]

Guys, guys. with the airlines that offer self employed no guarantee of work contracts what's the difference? You might not have any rostered work for months, but be on unpaid SBY. Don't bleat about this and not bleat about the other.

[nitefiter]

The majority are with PARC or ARPI and aren't on that sort of contract.

[wind check]

Those contractors agencies are the EBOLA equivalent in the Civil aviation jobs. It really should be banned from the industry. Pilots, cabin crews and engineers should be directly employed by their airline company with a proper contract.

[EdnaClouds]

@wind check :ok:

Where are the regulators?

[Pucka]

Boycott this mob..they're a bunch of trouble and as stated.. Unfit for purpose but..shows how the regulators are moulded from same..crap to boot too...

[Alex400]

Why complain if everyone were offered 787 positions? :confused:

[8ah]

Might be the 30 000 Eur bond thingie....

[captplaystation]

60 laid off inc 10 Capts, 15 787 positions (FO & Crz Capt ) and the bond (which normally requires a bank guarantee, try getting that whilst laid off )

They are complaining because they left permanent positions & didn't sign up for a seasonal contract.

[Alex400]

So not all the guys get the 787 offer? That sucks

[semmern]

What 787 offer?

[captplaystation]

See post # 1 +



Who can apply for the 15 pilot positions on long haul?
Everyone can apply for this. We will prioritize pilots from SH for these positions. Working on LH you will also have to work under the LH agreement. A bond for 36 month will be asked. H**+* P*+++++* has more details about T&Cs.
The minimum requirement is
For RCA:
· 5000 hours total time
· 2000 hours on B777, B767/757, B747 or B737EFIS/NG
· 1500 PIC hours on any Boeing aircraft
For FO:
· 1500 hours total time
· 500 hours on B777, B767/757, B747 or B737

[jimsmitty01]

The big question is why have they had to let go of 60 pilots this winter?

Too much capacity ?
Too many pilots?
Unprofitable routes?

Generally it looks like very poor management. They're recruitment drive always looked a bit overheated. Can anyone shed light on what the company are giving as an excuse to let 60 people go this winter?

[FRying]

So, instead of whinging again, are you going to do something about it or are you going to act like cattle being led to the slaughterhouse ?

[Deep and fast]

Norwegian lays off 60 pilots
The big question is why have they had to let go of 60 pilots this winter?

Too much capacity ?
Too many pilots?
Unprofitable routes?

Generally it looks like very poor management. They're recruitment drive always looked a bit overheated. Can anyone shed light on what the company are giving as an excuse to let 60 people go this winter?

The recruitment can be as overheated as they like if those taken on are on summer contracts, then just bin em and take new monkeys next year.

Hold out for proper jobs or put up with the :mad: these management arses rain down upon thee without complaint.

I do genuinely feel sorry for those let go, I have been there and yes it was just before Christmas also.

When will this chuffing industry pick up and get more compassion and an improvement in terms and conditions?

[DooblerChina]

When we stop accepting it. it's not the companies at fault here, if I ran a loco airline I would do exactly the same, in fact I'd be more ruthless and not pay any salaries, just offer experience. I'd still crew my aeroplanes. Sad but true.

When folk stop training because the jobs just aren't there, things will improve. What goes around etc....

[FRying]

I do genuinely feel sorry for those let go, I have been there and yes it was just before Christmas also.

When will this chuffing industry pick up and get more compassion and an improvement in terms and conditions?


Poor puppy... When will those nasty vilains be nice again ?...:sad:

Don't you understand the course of history depends on you and not on how nice "the nasty bosses can be" ???

Just wake up ! You feel sorry... You're next in line, boy. And since you haven't fought for those chaps you feel sorry for, your management will feel rewarded and free to act so again and again. This time on YOU. And other people will feel sorry for you being led to the slaughterhouse. First they came for the...

Managers make decisions within boundaries that are given to them by the market, by their bank, by society, by their employees, by their board, etc... If you let their boundaries expand until they reach the troposphere, then they'll use that extra-space. If you don't let them do it, then they'll have to manage their business within more restrictive boundaries. Don't feel sorry for them after having felt sorry for those furloughed. Just defend yourself and bite, for Christ's sake !

I can't believe what I'm reading here.:ugh:

[JW411]

I might be totally wrong but I think I am beginning to detect just the slightest whiff of hysteria creeping into this thread.

[FRying]

Oh no, nothing to be histeric about, JW. Only 60 people being shown the door and the rest hiding out in fear of being part of the pack, in a growing profit-making company.

Because of people like you, JW, europeans pilots are where they are now : never reacting, never getting angry, not the slightest glimpse of hysteria. Just a bunch of quiet puppies.

When will you get b@lls ? Acting gentlemen will serve nobody's cause.

[ICEHOUSES]

Unfortunately things are only going to get worse especially with all the mummy's boys cadets being hired across Europe most of who have never had a proper job before or belonged to a trade union and never been part of collective bargaining who will pay to fly as a hobby :ugh:

[Deep and fast]

fRying, I said what I said because I have compassion which is a natural human trait. This is something FR probably removed from your soul!
Actually, my situation was completely different and I am longer involved with the airlines and their sharp employment practices.

Flying, if you can't take a joke, don't join.

[X-Centric]

I am in total agreement with FRying & DooblerChina. This isn't about emotions nor even hysteria: this is about the continuing decline of value of the airline pilot & it is us, the pilots, who have ourselves to blame, simple as that. Looking from the outside it seems to me that Norwegian were over recruiting pilots as some kind of publicity stunt, demonstrating their over zealous expansion & broadcasting it to the world. They didn't give two hoots about the lives or even careers that they were messing with, never gave it a second thought.

I was a captain with Ryanair & I would continually hear the moaning & groaning from the 'cadets' about how crap life was at FR, low pay, lousy roster, nasty management, etc., etc. (And it was & still is.) They were all going to build their time & then leave & here I would ask the question, "where are you going to go to?" All of the airlines have continually lowered their Ts & Cs & there are now no places left that offer anything like the conditions that we all took for granted back in the eighties & nineties. Now, if those same people: the Ryanair, Jet2, NAS pilots told the likes of O'Leary, Meeson, Kjos, et al, to shove it & walked out, within a day all of our professional lives would improve.

Where are many of the Ryanair boys going? To Norwegian which offers some of the lowest pay in the industry: you won't find a lower salary for a 787 driver in the world. So now you have built up your wide body time on the 787, again, where will you go? All of the other carriers have seen that we are prepared to work for peanuts & will consequently lower their Ts & Cs, simple economics in a capitalist market place.

Until we, the pilots, stand up for ourselves, refuse the :mad: that we are constantly fed, then we can expect, & as a group deserve, nothing more. :ugh:

[Guttn]

Yes, if the pilots only could stand up together and tell the bastards to shove it… Well, the NAS pilots had a great opportunity to do just that back in May 2012. Their union leaders rallied around and got an overwhelming support from a lot of other European unions, as well as some cabin crew, ground crew, fueling services etc. It looked as if the big wave was about to hit the shore, but the union folded and accepted somewhat of a flimsy agreement some that they (on normal T&Cs, not contract T&Cs) would get further job security. Next year at the negotiating table, guess what happened… Almost another strike (it`s always almost… BK is a lawyer and pushes it as far as he can, then "gives" a bit so it may look like the union has accomplished something), but management and union agreed upon agreeing upon already negotiated collective agreements. Pensions and such nasty little things… It`s not getting any better, and people keep selling themselves short just to get a foot in the door, and get the boot out the backdoor.

[Deep and fast]

Time for a new union that serves pilots and their interests not those of threatening management.

Balpa is a self serving beast that is trying to play politics not union representation as required by the pilots. A union without teeth can't bite, it just sucks!

[captplaystation]

Yep, and we know what it sucks (or kisses)

Sad fact is, when Unions are willing to accept loosely worded agreements, with liberal use of terms such as "should"/ "may be" / "will endeavour to " , particularly when the guy on the opposite side of the table is a solicitor, it does leave one wondering if the word collusion is applicable.

In my time in BM (BMI for you younger uns) BALPA was another level of management (in waiting) where most of the Reps were just biding their time & buying pints in the lodge whilst waiting to move sides.

I doubt if there is quite that level of treachery in NAS, but it does appear the "agreements" could be more watertight.

The main problem remains though, that a solicitor knows that he can sign something, subsequently disregard it, and enjoy the benefits accrued for quite a number of years before the inevitable court case/appeal etc . . . much like that affable Irish bloke running the other mob.

[RAT 5]

Has anyone heard a squeak out of ECA? The cool breeze from Dublin drifted eastwards on the wind over EU and slipped gently southwards even into warmer climes. Others saw the signs and followed suit. Is it that a cold arctic blast is about to descend and sweep southwards across the cosy plains of southern regions? ECA's silence might be jolted into action. Even the strong nationals are feeling the effect of the cool winds and the crews there will have very different career futures to their predecessors. Their in-house unions will be of reduced effectiveness under the threat from share holders who see what is possible from competitors. I think ECA and its constituent parts will find themselves running up a down-escalator and slowly running out of steam and not ascending, but drifting downwards. I doubt the crew shortage (pilots/cabin staff/engineers) will be severe enough to reverse the trend of the past 15 years. Ever since privatisation of the majors the writing has been on the wall, but too many a blind eye was buried in the sand. A juicy backside was presented to management and it was duly shafted.

If you think this is fantasy, then think on the edges. How long ago, and who was it that introduced baggage charges? How many others followed when pax numbers did not fall? How long ago and who was it that introduced check-in charges, and credit card charges, and administration charges, and weight limits with exorbitant excess baggage charges, and print your own boarding passes and …and….and. Now even the likes of KLM and other ex-majors have followed suit; more gently, but still in the same manner. We now think the the norm to pay for baggage, check-in/admin, print our own boarding cards etc. We now expect the ticket price to be way less than before. It won't be long before the free bar disappears on the majors. All tat has happened and conditioned the pax way of thinking in only 10 years. So please don't think the T's & C's are not going to suffer the same fate. Eventually the market forces may have an effect, but not for a very long time.

[Greenlights]

X-centric
They were all going to build their time & then leave & here I would ask the question, "where are you going to go to?" All of the airlines have continually lowered their Ts & Cs & there are now no places left that offer anything like the conditions that we all took for granted back in the eighties & nineties.

X-centric, that's exactly I ask myself everyday to be honest.
Im in a LCC in asia, and this question regularly comes in my mind.
No need to be at FR to ask this same lol
That's why I am doing a business on side and study online. Then I will leave the industry if nothing better comes.
As you said even majors lower...Like many expat I could go to Dubai but, that's not for me and I am sure of it. Leaving asia for Dubai, I do not see it as an improvement in my life, except for the money only (but i don't care that much).
What else, oh europe ? where ? EZ ? same thing : leaving a LCC to go to another LCC, I don't see it as a climb on the ladder. It's just a horizontal movement. Not really vertical.

anyway you raised a very good point.

ah and of course standing up it's a nice idea, but as expat, you do that and in the second youre fired...

[FLY BY WIRE]

FRing, Rat5, X-centric, totally agree. We are still in a race to the bottom.
Olearys stated aim is to give tickets away for free (making all the money on the extras) and where is it easiest to cut costs to pay for that? From the T&Cs of the workforce.
The other airlines are following suit, not just because of market forces, but because they have found they can.
BALPA seems powerless/disinterested in taking a stand because it probably hurts their long term political goals whatever they may be, and besides we will only get real action from them when BA T&Cs are threatened. (Veuling?)
Too many union company reps are looking out for their own advancement (happened already in my company) and the pilot work force are just too ready to accept the managements word for it that "times are tough" because they've got school fees, alimony, credit cards and overstretched themselves on mortgages, to stand up to the T&Cs onslaught and need a steady income no matter how low.
I don't see an improving future for pilots in Europe in the next 20 years unless we actually stand up and fight for it.

[X-Centric]

Yes, Fly By Wire, all true. I've worked for the same airline for nine years now. In that time I've seen the Ts & Cs eroded to such a degree that it is unrecognizable from the company I joined. Our pay has reduced in real terms by 28%. We used to stay in great hotels downtown now, without exception, they are all three star airport layovers. Speaking of layovers, they have removed so many by operating a 'heavy crew' system (with us that's just three pilots) & scheduling two leg flights: e.g. LAX-SFO-NRT or AMS-MXP-NRT: 17 - 18 hour duties traversing time zones & even the international dateline. We have had the annual CPI pay increase removed from our contracts. If you call in with fatigue expect to face a disciplinary. The crew food is slop that honestly wouldn't be allowed in a prison; they have even removed the disposable, paper toilet seat protectors to save money! :ugh:

Want to leave then hey, "You fly the B747, we operate the 777 or 787 or 737 & we're not going to pay for your conversion course!" Or, "You fly heavy jets it's totally different from single aisle flying, close the door on your way out!" If I could get out of this once proud &, yes, glamorous industry & still meet my mortgage payments & school fees I'd be gone tomorrow. Sadly, that's the view of nearly all of my colleagues. And who do I fly for? Not a LCC, not in Europe but a Japanese airline who was once the bastion of great Ts & Cs. This is the point of my previous post: when all the guys who are willingly accepting the crap at the bottom want to move up there is going to be nowhere for them to go any longer. :(

Apologies for the thread creep.

[adolf hucker]

x-centric,

Bit rich to be blaming the guys at the bottom for accepting crap Ts and Cs when, by your own admission, your own Ts and Cs have fallen through the floor yet you still turn up to work at an increased profit margin for the company. Pilots have a great tendency to point the finger at anyone but themselves when it comes to bemoaning the decline of the industry.

[Oldaircrew]

Actually Adolf, I believe X is right. The new generation accepting lower T&Cs(and even paying for their jobs) just to get a ten year jump career wise ahead of their mates in the industry, has enabled even the higher end companies to offer (and in some cases reduce their present) lower packages.

X would have no choice but to continue working for his company even though they refused to increase salaries in accordance with inflationary pressure. Had he threatened to change companies, he would have been shown the door with a smile as the accountant would happily accept his resignation knowing full well that he could be replaced with some-one who would work for less

This has helped to create the terms, conditions and 'respect' that aircrew receive in general from airline management.

He has it spot on by saying that when the new generation try to move up to the 'better' paying airlines, there will be nowhere to move to. Their( the new generation) sense of entitlement has bitten us all on the butt.

[FLY BY WIRE]

It can't be too far ahead that it becomes economically unviable to aspire to be an airline pilot. The cost of training (approx £90,000) to get a low paid second officer postion, and in some cases Flexi crew contracts (only paid a basic wage when you actually work) makes the job of today's pilot almost slave labour.
The introduction of MPL courses which basically trains applicants to be computer operators rather than giving them a basic grounding in flying skills and airmanship, which in my opinion is a trade off of profits over safety.
As an example of this the MPL pilots are brilliant at controlling the aircraft through the automatics (autopilot & auto thrust), and handling ECAM, but it all starts to go a bit wrong once the autopilot is out and they actually have to fly the aircraft to land it.
That comes with experience and plenty of landings, but until then, as a line Captain you are effectively in a training role until they gain that experience.

So I wonder how many youngsters out there can actually afford to front up that kind of money to, in effect, not be trained as a pilot. Surely the realities of the job for new aspire-ees is plain to see once they start to look, and dispels any perceived glamour of being a pilot. But the new guys I fly with tell me there's still a queue out the door at training establishments which I can't fathom. There are much better paid jobs out there and the respect for pilots has been effectively killed by ignorant management and accountants to drive costs down.

Maybe BALPA should do more to advise aspiring pilots about the realities of the job? But then that would mean less pilots, which would mean less subs paying union members.......Hmmmm.
Is it easier to accept more members paying less in fees (because they are so low paid) or to stem the flow of cheap pilots for companies, increase terms and conditions for the rest, and accept a higher % from them. Interesting question.

The plague of the Low cost companies has turned the industry from just very competative back in the day, to ultra ultra cut throat today. That is having an ever increasing effect on safety margins, and I wonder where it will all end?

[Narrow Runway]

You say: "That is having an ever increasing effect on safety margins, and I wonder where it will all end?"

I am not saying I necessarily disagree, but where is your proof of this?

I haven't seen many (indeed any) instances of your assertion in the public domain.

The fact is that modern A320/B737 aircraft are generally very reliable, and hence, safe. That is why MPL is possible. The statistics show it to be safe, therefore regulators and insurers are prepared to take the "risk" - whatever that may be.

[FLY BY WIRE]

Colgan Air 3407 - tired lowly paid pilots.
Air France 447 - junior pilot incorrectly flying the aircraft in an emergency situation.

Your right, modern new aircraft don't often go wrong. (That's what management and the accountants hang their hat on to reduce T&Cs) But when they do, you need highly trained experienced pilots to fly them. Eg Flight 1549 & Capt Sullenberger.

And you know the old phrase about statistics..... ;-)

[Narrow Runway]

FBW,

Statistics, yes I know what you mean.

However, there is solid proof that in AF447, whilst the junior co-pilot was at the controls, the Senior co-pilot who was in relief command did absolutely nothing to resolve the situation. The captain was in the bunk having taken his girlfriend out in Brazil the night before. Not exactly inexperience causing the crash entirely, I would suggest....

Colgan: Again, factors outside inexperience. Commuting pre duty, fixation on matters other than flying the aircraft, fatigue.... all there, but not inexperience. The captain had plenty of hours (albeit with a "patchy" record in check rides I believe) and the co-pilot was also in line for command, but as we know, she wouldn't move from the west coast for a command in Newark, NJ. It is all on the tapes....

So, I wouldn't say that pilot inexperience caused these accidents. I would agree though, that the cost cutting culture that exists now, did play a major role.

[FLY BY WIRE]

Narrow,

I think we essentially agree.
I just don't want the commitment, hard work, professionalism, and dedication that the job of a pilot entails to be ignored and minimised for the sake of profits.
It's complex, and I have no answer, that is why I wonder where it will all end up?

[EdnaClouds]

And would it be a fair assumption today and in years to come that not necessarily the best pilots remain in the industry but rather those that can put up with and accept the dwindling terms and conditions?

As previously mentioned by FBW, it has become economically unviable to become a pilot.

How many guys are happy on a sham self employed contract or a contract through an agency which almost doesn't seem to be worth the paper it is written on? I know its a difficult one as I include myself in one of these workers, and I appreciate how hard it is individually to make a change without the collective agreement of all pilots through a union or otherwise.

When will people realise in 20/30 years down the road that they don't have a decent pension, still no job security, mediocre pay, no health insurance etc etc, but are still willing to fly a shiny jet for a company that is ever posting more and more profits year on year.

Unfortunately it looks like this has become the norm the world over with ever more intricate ways of setting up the employment structure for air crew.

[172_driver]

My suggestion;

Regulate the flight training, take it off the free market.
Today lots of people are putting themselves in debts for life. Their shortsightedness stops them from getting a house mortgages, settling down with a family, all those things most people in late 20s/early 30s are looking for. A regulated market could bring out the best candidates for the job, not just the once who can afford it. It will balance the supply and demand which I can see brings back healthy employment forms (no zero hour, short term contracts). It will inject a reasonable amount of cadets into the job market and experienced pilots will not be undercut by cadets with too much money. Isn't this what a regulating safety body should be doing?? (read: EASA)

But of course this will never happen…..

[Oldaircrew]

John Smith

I hear what you say about those in the industry who took advantage and exploited the naive but if you think the newbies have not affected our T&cs, you're very much mistaken.

[McNugget]

I agree that the 'modern' marketplace for new entrants into the industry has very much changed the T's & C's, but I personally believe it is absolutely not realistic to expect the newcomers to protect the labour market.

That job falls to those already within.

[galaxy flyer]

Those contractors agencies are the EBOLA equivalent in the Civil aviation jobs. It really should be banned from the industry. Pilots, cabin crews and engineers should be directly employed by their airline company with a proper contract.

Why isn't this so in Euroland? In the US, the union contract and even most non-union carriers, all flying must be done with employees--the scope clause. The carrier just cannot go out and hire contractors. Seems an obvious contract issue.

[captplaystation]

To take this thread vaguely back on subject. . . . . . . .


We received (several days later ) a vaguely explanatory email from the DFO, with some excuse, but no "excuse-me".

In the meantime, via social media, quite a number of pilots accepted to fly reduced roster, on the basis that this would possibly allow for the laid off colleagues to reduce the period of unpaid leave, or , at least, receive 25% salary for a month & 50% for the next.

The organisation/motivation for this came from the pilots themselves. Another email was sent, with some other excuse, & a half reassurance that this wouldn't be repeated for these guys ( Good luck to the new entrants next year however) in which management tried to imply that they were some way to be credited with this initiative, that is B.S. it came from the pilots/for the pilots.

Way back in the end of Summer, an offer was made to all the contract (but not core) FO's of the availability of 50% or 80% roster (or even periods of unpaid leave) over the Winter, there was no mention that, if no-one took it ( & most thought, very reasonably "better to sit at home on 100% salary & do less. . . . . well, you would ! ) the next stage would be enforced unpaid leave.

In this instance, the pilots have stepped up to the plate & several individuals have had the pain reduced ( a bit at least)

This is a very heartening development, and bodes well for the next stage of our current struggle to avoid Ryanairisation (Oh, in my humble opinion of course)

The agencies PARC & ARPI have been advised that their services will not be required after the middle of the year, the 3rd stoogie (Confair) will not continue in 2015. Pilots hired through Confair have been given the joyous news that the company would like them to be employed (either permanently or as Contractors , depending on how long they have been in the company) through an affiliate of a "shipping agency" (looking at the shipping industry doesn't that sound promising :hmm: ) whose aviation credentials thus far seem to mainly involve the "employment" of our USA based 787 cabin crew. With 1month & 1 day to go until termination with Confair no-one has been presented with a Contract for perusal, merely a "half-promise" that conditions will remain the same (why oh why would we not believe them. . . . . . do you want a list from the last 2 years ? ? )

In the meantime, at least 80% of Spanish based pilots have signed up to SEPLA & a request made to NAS for recognition. . . the response ? to pass it on to NAR (Norwegian Air Resources) who, in spite of being the future employers in Spain via NAR ES have decided to play the evasive trick "well, we don't employ you" . . .EXCUSE ME ? "we only provide you to NAS" . . .Oh yeah ? so NAS sent the request to you, but it isn't your Dept ? Ah OK , that is very clear, is this what we call "passing the buck" perhaps, NAS say "it isn't us" & you say " Nah not us either"
A recent second communication to NAS after the news that we would be expected to change agency awaits a response, & in the meantime we have the news that recently recruited Cadets, who were given LGW base, appear to be looking at the rather expensive luxury of providing their own accommodation/transport in Oslo , where it looks like they will spend the 1st 6mths of their time in NAS for Line Training ( & no doubt the rest of the Summer) to keep "Core" artificially small . . . just like all the guys from last year who joined from Ryanair expecting a Contract base, and instead found themselves on a temporary Scandi contract with all the attendant expenses & unforeseen (at least by them ) tax responsibilities . . . they were almost as happy as those that joined before them with the promise of rapid command (which has now migrated to Q4 2015/ Q1 2016 at earliest.)

Welcome aboard the "Happy Ship" :ooh: at least we take a little bit of care of each other, even if our employer doesn't seem to wish to.

Edited to add (as the Mods saw fit to remove my post from the main Norwegian thread) we now await with baited breath the "permanent contract".
It has been vaguely stated that conditions will be "very" similar to what we have as Contractors (as ever , the devil is in the detail) however, we have conflicting reports from different Spanish base meetings from colleagues who attended.
One thing that is certain however, is that the company is benchmarking Vueling when deciding the renumeration they wish to offer the Spanish Cabin Crew.

Should they wish to lower the bar to the same level for Flight Deck personnel this will surely spell the end of anyones desire to remain here.
Given the harm they have done to their reputation with this recent debacle, it will be very optimistic on their part indeed if they choose to score another "own goal" in such rapid succession,it is notable that the flood of applicants from RYR has already dried up (if not indeed reversed as per the "rumours")
The only thing that may give them the courage to try such tactics would be the fact that net expansion for next year is very low, before ramping up in 2016, maybe they do indeed feel like giving it a punt. . . if so, the training Dept can cancel that "quiet" year they were looking forward to.

[lear999wa]

Well said captplaystation. The future seems to be very bleak indeed. Time will tell! To all those thinking of Norwegian, think again.

[RAT 5]

Those contractors agencies are the EBOLA equivalent in the Civil aviation jobs. It really should be banned from the industry. Pilots, cabin crews and engineers should be directly employed by their airline company with a proper contract.

A couple of weeks ago, Sat Nov 15th I think, in Daily Telegraph there was an article reporting on comments by a government minister. i've forgotten the name of the sports retail company, but he was scathing in his criticism of the company policy to have so many workers on zero-hour contracts. He said that a large successful profit making company should not be using such contracts in 21st century. It was unacceptable to have so many front-line workers with no protection of their rights, no regular salary, no pension contributions, no NI payments etc. He called for a review of such contracts in todays workplace.
Sound familiar. If people opened their mouths they might find they have a friend in high places.

[Avenger]

According to an ex RYR colleague, the Spanish authorities only allow " contractors" to work for a period of 2 years in this status..if NAS want to continue with these " contractors" one would presume they have to either: Have perm employment or move to bases outside of Spain..
Given many will reach the 2 year benchmark by Jan 2015 and the perm contracts are not likely to be on the table until end 2015, it would appear a " void" is on the horizon..?

[silverhawk]

Flags of convenience. Like Shipping decades ago.




Run for your lives!

[LNIDA]

Norwegian pilot contractors are salaried not on zero hour contracts.

Avenger

The last NAS info stated that all Spanish pilots working for contractors in Spain would be offered perm contracts in the 1st quarter of 2015 and that the terms would not be less than currently offered.......still messy thou

[captplaystation]

LNIDA, for now they are saying only AGP based pilots , & no later than end of 1st quarter 2015, and , half promises don't seem to count for much anymore . . ask the numerous people unhappy with what was "half-promised" at interview in the post Bjorn H era , including , but not limited to , Core position (not permanent employment "Core position") early command assessment, basings, etc etc. . . . If you wish to believe "half-promises" & phrases like "will be very similar to", "not different/less than" etc, Good Luck :ok: like many others, I remember the HEL fiasco & would prefer to see "the colour of the money" (I.E a draft contract, surely not that difficult to produce ) before waving the celebratory flags here.

[greenedgejet]

Ah poor didums ! Actually no not so poor and not without the power of choice despite all the navel gazing about Western economies.

How did they get £120k debts in the first place? Selling big issue?

Whilst the regulators, big flight schools, pilot shortage journos and loco managers and the likes of BALPA have the largest responsibility, the self funded cadets share some of the blame game for being taken in by the former.

Now you either have to have 3000h heavy type with 500h recency on exact model of aircraft or 150000usd to spend on an MPL.

The sensible middle ground/apprentiship route has become a wasteland. Those from non heavy Mil backgrounds, GA and commuter/tp airlines are ignored with predictable results for all concerned.

[plain-plane]

Read your latest info fro the resources department more carefully CPT-play....

Spanish based Norwegian pilots will transfer to permanent employment after 2 years with company... As per local Spanish law... So, also pilots at other (than agp) Spanish bases will transfer from contract employment to permanent employment, when they reach the 2 years, and several will transfer 01/01/15...

All training staff will also transfer to permanent employment as required by the NCAA.

[captplaystation]

You may believe what you wish. . . . the trainers etc have recently been told they will be given a new contract "within days". . .the clock is ticking, the email I refer to said it would happen within the 1st quarter, anyhow, nobody has seen the "permanent contract" so, will we smile or cry when we see it ? what is your prognosis ?

A large percentage of pilots are "out of contract" at the end of this month, their efforts to "regularise" their situation by joining ARPI has been deemed impossible by NAS (mainly because ARPI appeared to be willing to communicate with the Unions I could imagine) so, we are all sitting waiting to see what the new "favourite kid on the block" can come up with. I don't know how high your expectations are, but flying too high can melt the wax holding your wings together.

[LNIDA]

I understand your cynicism & doubtless there will be more cock ups ahead, of the two main contractors Arpi & Confair the latter never really committed to tidying up its act as required by NAS, the first and only time Confair deducted income tax at source was November 2014 payroll, so something had to change. OSM's first communication had the polish and pre thought of a turd, it was just let go....

The 60 layoffs now much reduced in scope was in part down to a Spanish ticketing issue, more accurately Norwegian were ready this winter to go with mainland flights to the Canaries, until someone asked how they were going to deal with the residents 50% ticket discount between the Islands and mainland, the good people of Noggy land were apparently unaware of it!!!! if you doubt it ask your self where most of the new pilots (60) were based??

Icarus never got off the ground, never mind too near the Sun, although i do like the line of "overcome by the giddiness that flying lent him" sounds like a pay to fly scheme!! mind you spending more than a week on Crete and I would be flapping my arms in the vain hope of getting away from there.

[captplaystation]

A bit of humour is certainly required to deal with this whole scenario, we will see however if any serious info is imparted this day in LGW.

One very important fact to be resolved however is that OSM seem to be acting under the miscomprehension that they may be involved in permanent contracts in bases that have been open for 36mths. It would be good if it was pointed out to them that this is in clear contravention of the agreement between NAS & the NPU.

The very 1st Captain I flew with way back in 1984 had been around the block ( & then some) he asked me on one of our 1st trips together what qualities I thought were needed for a career in aviation. . . . . my suggestions were nowhere near the mark.
As he pointed out to me, the one quality required was "resilience", as he told me all those years ago, you are going to spend your entire career being expected to eat ****, so, if you can't let that wash over you like soft caribbean waves don't stay in this industry . . . how right he was.

[lederhosen]

Stockholm to Ulan Bator on the 737 max as seen on a Norwegian presentation should be a fun trip! Night Delhi and return or more probably the other way around after minimum rest should also be a good laugh. :hmm: