View Full Version : When is an outflow valve not an outflow valve?
TURIN
26th Oct 2014, 20:31
Now pay attention. I will say this only once.
This is an outflow valve...
http://cornwallfreenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Capn-Dan-March-18.jpeg
It is NOT a panel that has been left open or a loose door.
The next time you see something which you suspect may not be quite right. Please contact the people who know.
It saves a lot of time, approximately a tonne of JetA-1 and over an hours delay.
Thankyou.
B737900er
26th Oct 2014, 21:22
Mods get rid of this pointless thread that I just waisted 10 seconds reading.:ok:
...not so fast there B737900er!
There's obviously a reason Turin posted what he/she did, and I'll bet there's an interesting story behind it that a few on here would like to know.
So do tell us Turin! What happened??
TURIN
26th Oct 2014, 21:50
It wasn't pointless for the two hundred-plus passengers who had their flight delayed today due to their a/c being returned to stand because some idiot in the orange Airbus behind them doesn't know what an outflow valve looks like!!
And it meant I missed the first half of a rather engaging Association Football match. :mad::O
Pity you didn't think of closing it!
AF330
26th Oct 2014, 21:55
Yes TURIN,
But the outflow valve is controlled by the CPC, it can open and close the valve when he wants. So what was the problem exactly?
Lord Spandex Masher
26th Oct 2014, 22:05
some idiot in the orange Airbus behind them
Obviously didn't cover that in "you must blindly follow all SOPs school".
:E
TURIN
26th Oct 2014, 22:13
Oh for crying out loud!
An Airbus pilot should know what an outflow valve looks like on another Airbus.
It does not look anything like a 'loose panel' or a hatch that has been left open.
Pity you didn't think of closing it!
BOAC
Is it SOP to close it just before take off?
No it isn't.
AF330. Shut Up!:rolleyes:
On the plus side, a late injury time equaliser secured a point. :ok:
FE Hoppy
26th Oct 2014, 22:23
@ Turin.
Hope your company contacts the Orange ones and asks for an explanation? This is the sort of thing the tabloids would love to jump all over. ;-)
Did you ask them to follow you back in and point out the loose panel?
No it isn't. - No it isn't, but it should have avoided your delay. How does it go? What are Sop's for .......?
AF330
26th Oct 2014, 22:27
Hey TURIN, I am really suprised by your reaction....
I just talked about the outflow valve today with an aeronautical engineer, and in his docs it was creally written CPC (cabin pressure controller) manage the outflow valves. So please explain me what happened. The CPC's can close/open the different outflow valves...
Denti
26th Oct 2014, 22:56
Thing is you're completely missing the point. It is not about computers, it is about the knowledge, or lack thereof, of professional pilots, not eager aviation nerds.
I saw something like that unfold once as well, however the crew in the leading aircraft asked very specific questions about the location of the "loose panel" or open hatch, decided it was the outflow valve and departed without returning to the stand. The crew in the following aircraft learned that day that not all outflow valves are in the same position on every aircraft.
john_tullamarine
27th Oct 2014, 04:34
So long as a thread has a message to tell and is of interest along the way it should stay.
Food for thought for all .. ?
Old Fella
27th Oct 2014, 04:36
Maybe it is time to revert to having PROFESSIONAL Cabin Pressure Controllers, namely Flight Engineers, and the pilots can do what they do best. Like fly the aeroplane and not have to overtax their brains with the technicalities of the beast. Hard Hats at the ready!!!!
Sidestick_n_Rudder
27th Oct 2014, 07:51
It's quite common that Bus outflow valve freak people out:
1) a non-pilot friend called me from a departure lounge telleing me that he just saw an Airbus passing by with some door open and asking me if he should alert the staff and make fuss about it. After a few guidance questions as to where it was/what it looked like I told him no...
2) Taxiing for departure an A320 had the same call from the tower - again, after 1-2 additional questions and a good look on the ECAM door page we elected to go.
Perhaps it's a good idea to do a good analysis of the problem before doing 180...
BTW, anyone remember this old chestnut:
Tower: "Airline XXX, it looks like one of your baggage doors is open."
Captain (after quickly scanning the FE panel): "Ah, thanks tower, but you must be looking at our APU door."
Tower: "Okay, Airline XXX, cleared for takeoff."
Captain: "Cleared for takeoff, Airline XXX."
Tower, during the takeoff roll: "Airline XXX, ahh ... it appears that your APU is leaking luggage..."
:E
It does not look anything like a 'loose panel' or a hatch that has been left open.
You and I know it's not a loose panel, at least not from such a photo taken from under the aircraft, but to say it doesn't look anything like a loose panel or hatch is stretching the truth a bit.
Some maintenance hatches are not much bigger, but most of them are on the fuselage centerline. e.g. rear stabiliser access panel on a 747. The A330 fuelling panel is off-centre, but well underneath the aircraft. The forward equipment centre hatch on an A380 is also off centre but opens inwards, I recall.
The red outline may be a give-away (to show a hazard area), but an orange/red colour scheme might hide that somewhat.
Tower: "Airline XXX, it looks like one of your baggage doors is open."
Captain (after quickly scanning the FE panel): "Ah, thanks tower, but you must be looking at our APU door."
I remember hearing a story of a 747 Classic flight attendant calling the cockpit just before takeoff about something hanging from the wingtip. The flight crew incorrectly misinterpreted his description of the item as a static wick/discharger. It turned out to be a HF wingtip antenna (probably now resting at the bottom of the ocean). How long were those things? 2 meters? Made of aluminium, but it still would have put a decent sized hole in someone's roof.
JammedStab
28th Oct 2014, 03:47
Perhaps the earlier post was onto something. Could you go to manual, close it, ask the other aircraft what they see now and if they say it is closed, you an go back to auto and go fly.
CaptainProp
28th Oct 2014, 05:40
Use the DITCHING pushbutton.
stilton
28th Oct 2014, 05:55
Many years ago in a different life while operating a very modest small twin I noticed a taxiing MD80 with something attached to it's nose gear.
I let ground control know and they relayed the message to the crew. They were concerned enough to return to the gate.
Where it was confirmed it was the 'spray deflector'
Oops, I was embarrassed but the crew were kind enough to thank me, and I didn't feel too bad as they weren't sure what it was either.
Unfortunately if someone see's something they think is abnormal it's pretty much incumbent on you that you get it looked at, in the past we have had a mechanic drive out and take a look before giving us a 'thumbs up'
If you ignore it and something happens it won't look good :eek:
TURIN
28th Oct 2014, 09:25
Hope your company contacts the Orange ones and asks for an explanation? This is the sort of thing the tabloids would love to jump all over. ;-)
Did you ask them to follow you back in and point out the loose panel?
Fortunately (for my company) I do not work for the airline in question I do not know how far they will push it.
By the time we (as the ground engineering contractor) were informed, the orange Airbus had long gone. (A clever way to jump a slot if you ask me :E).
If we had been informed straight away instead of nearly an hour after the a/c had initially left the gate, perhaps we could have avoided the RTS.
- No it isn't, but it should have avoided your delay. How does it go? What are Sop's for .......?
I see what you are getting at now BOAC. Good point, well made. Manually opening and closing the valve(s) and asking the following a/c to confirm operation would have avoided any delay. :ok:
yotty
28th Oct 2014, 10:29
I've been called out to umpteen aircraft before departure, to check reports from non-engineering staff (from toileteers to flight-deck). For the vast majority of times they are "red herrings", but now and again they've highlighted a significant defect which required attention before flight. Even when it's a un important event I still thank the reporter as they might not bother next time!:cool:
ATCast
28th Oct 2014, 17:58
Be grateful for people that watch after each other. As an A320 driver maybe he should have known that it was an outflow valve he was looking at, but you can't expect everyone to know all the details of all aircraft.
It reminds me of this piece of great communication and problem solving at JFK when a Lufthansa A340 was taxiing with an open fuel panel. That didn't take an hour.
2fs9HcdhUFI
TURIN
28th Oct 2014, 20:31
Brilliant! :D
I'd love to know how he got out as that ladder in the nose is a pig to unlatch. :ok:
FlightDetent
28th Oct 2014, 21:47
The LH340 recording was presented to me (audio only) on an ICAO ELP test. Afterwards, I must say it seems like a truly professional choice of material for the exam. To a mid-European.
Mecaniquito84
3rd Nov 2014, 07:39
It's not advisable to use Ditch Push-button, You will actually close both outflow valves, but aircraft's conditioning air, w/o exit, will pressurize the plane on ground and will be out of control afterward, since controoler will not control the valves anymore. Help me some one, but I believe that after using the Ditching p/b, reset may be performed only on ground, engines off.
Aside. I had some kind of similar experience w a MD83 (exhaust valve dimensions relationship to fuselaje diameter is bigger), but the person w the question was a Ramper and he, ISO stop a/c, asked a mechanic about....
As the ditching button is a part of the deicing/anti-icing procedure on ground procedure i seriously doubt that a reset is required.
Switching the Bleed off or Packs off before hitting the ditch switch would be sensible. Assuming the A330 has a ditch switch. I can't remember seeing one.
KBPsen
3rd Nov 2014, 16:56
It does and using it also closes the pack flow control valves.
No Fly Zone
4th Nov 2014, 09:10
Hilarious! Is that why it is marked in red? How many times has somewone worried about this 'loose, flapping thing' on the belly? Work on or around airplanes: know them. And yes, if you see something that is obviously not right - not marked in RED as normal, speak up. Ground staff too need some functional brain power - and proper training. (Best example is that 'little bump.' Grounders are NOT supposed to bump birds, but it happens. For the sake of 3 or 300+ souls, when - not if - that 'Little Bump' happens, tell someone. Please. :D
barit1
4th Nov 2014, 14:49
Didn't Sully and Skiles prove to us the ditchswitch is just excess baggage? :rolleyes:
max alt
5th Nov 2014, 18:07
Happened to me once as I taxied past the control tower in Ajaccio for departure,
"XXX ooold position,you have a little door open"
After a brief conversation with my French friend,we resolved it was the outflow valve.Nice to think he was looking out for me and it could have been something that had been missed/faulty.
Safe than sorry and all that.:ok:
Check Airman
9th Nov 2014, 08:13
What type of airplane is pictured in the first post?
Fursty Ferret
10th Nov 2014, 20:47
Fortunately (for my company) I do not work for the airline in question I do not know how far they will push it.
I hope they don't. We're all capable of making cock-ups and one day you might be glad that the crew in the "orange Airbus" spots something you've missed. Two other pilots have independently seen something, probably discussed it a bit, and been concerned enough to raise it.
Makes me wonder what the atmosphere is like in your flight deck when a new guy spots your mistake but is apprehensive about speaking up about it.
So it cost a bit of time and fuel. Who cares?
TURIN
11th Nov 2014, 11:06
Makes me wonder what the atmosphere is like in your flight deck when a new guy spots your mistake but is apprehensive about speaking up about it.
I never said I worked in the flightdeck. You are assuming I am a pilot.
Please do not judge me. I have witnessed too many arrogant captains who belittle their own crew. I despise that attitude.
It would have been more productive if the original captain had just spoken to the engineers/mechanics and get them to do a visual inspection and confirm the a/c was serviceable. But no. Pontificating for nearly an hour until it was too late was the order of the day.