A320 Flaps / Slats locked (yes again !)

[sonicbum]

Hey guys,

I know it's a pretty recurrent question and there are numbers of threads on that matter but I had a doubt that I was trying to clear and couldn't find the answer. Can we state that in case of a flaps / slats locked the Vref increment given by the ECAM must match the increment on the QRH ? The ECAM already knows the landing Conf and therefore why should there be a discrepancy between the QRH and the ECAM other than a pilot confusion ? Another one since we are here :) A little bit of "philosophy" : as legally the ECAM suffices to handle any failure and it does not ask you to use the landing with slats and flaps jammed paper checklist, are we legally covered in case of omission of that checklist for any reason ?

Cheers.

[vilas]

As you know except VLS everything else displayed on PFD comes from flap lever. They are your good time friends. The moment there is a mismatch between lever and actual surface the displayed S, F, VFE and VFE next are incorrect and only mislead you. So we ignore and don't fly them by selecting speed. The new way of configuring is given in Landing with slat/flap procedure in QRH. If you do not refer to QRH then how would you configure? ECAM doesn't tell you that. QRH Vref addition sometimes is slightly different(should not be) in that case you can take the higher. Eventually you will be flying the displayed VLS as it is always correct.

[Elephant and Castle]

Without the QRH you cannot work out the landing distance required for the failure, you will miss the 500 feet minimum autopilot disconnect altitude and you will not know what config or speed to use in the case of Go Around. All pretty essential so not a good way to go.

[TyroPicard]

sonicbum
Two important lines from the FCTM on the subject...

• Refer to LANDING WITH FLAPS OR SLATS JAMMED paper check list.
• Update the approach briefing

So I think you would be foolish to ignore the QRH procedure, unless a greater emergency deprives you of the necessary time.

[sonicbum]

Thanks gents for your feedback.

Tyro as I specified initially we were just discussing the pure "legality" in that context, nobody is intending to omit any procedure unless as you said you have something extremely time consuming that you need to prioritise.

[Rocket3837]

Can U confirm you are referring to S/F locked or S/F jammed procedure?
In any case the speed increment displayed on ECAM is more correct than QRH. i.e. if there is a difference between the two speeds increments, apply ECAM spd increment.
On final approach, the VLS will represent the required spd + any increment due S/F failure.

[TyroPicard]

sonicbum
as legally the ECAM suffices to handle any failure
I disagree. Legally you are required to operate in accordance with your Ops Manual. ECAM is a tool to help you do that. It does not cover every failure.
And if you are not intending to omit the procedure why did you ask the question?

[vilas]

sonicbum
Forget the legality that will come after you landed. How will you configure to land without slat/flap jam procedure, unless you do the items from memory. ECAM does not advise you on additional necessary procedures like Overweight landing, straight in approach with OEI. Legally you need to remember and apply them.

[Gryphon]

I think there is a misunderstanding. From FCTM:

"When ECAM actions have been completed, and the ECAM status has been reviewed, the PNF may refer to the FCOM procedure for supplementary information, if time permits. However, in critical situations the flight should not be prolonged only to consult the FCOM."

But here we are talking only about expanded procedure in FCOM (very useful, if time permit)

But if you continue reading the FCTM:

"SOME ADDITIONAL REMARKS
• There are very few memory items
• OEB
• Some procedures require reference to the QRH"

ECAM/QRH/FCOM are tools and you have to use them accordingly

[sonicbum]

Tyro, it is an open discussion that started once the main points of the thread were discussed at the very beginning. Call it food for thoughts if you wish. Thanks for your feedbacks and opinions that I share myself.

[PENKO]

Where does it state that an Airbus has anything to do with the law?

(as in 'legally ECAM is enough in case of a failure')

ECAM does not tell me to inform the cabin crew, ATC, passengers, or the fire services of my emergency..

[sierra_mike]

ECAM does not tell me to inform the cabin crew, ATC, passengers, or the fire services of my emergency..

in certain procedures ECAM indeed tells you to notify ATC :}

but of course you are right, "ECAM actions complete" doesn't mean by far "we're done"

[Drifter72]

Hi,

Beside Vref increment message, ECAM Status page displays reminder to calculate performance, so you need to go to QRH.

During the training I noticed that pilots tend to wrongly interpret exact failure and consequently they calculate wrong performance from QRH tables. This is where ECAM Vref can be very handy. Comparing ECAM Vref with QRH Vref can be a quick confirmation that we are looking at the right failure for which we need to calculate landing distance.

I agree it is also not 100%, but at the end it is only a reminder that needs to be confirmed in QRH during performance calculation.

[Microburst2002]

I think the ECAM gives the landing configuration. Since VLS is the approach speed, you don't really need to go for any paper checklist if you are, for instance, in a fuel emergency and you are reasonably familiar with the procedure.

But if there is no hurry, you better get the checklist done.

[sonicbum]

Hi guys,

had another interesting SIM session where taking off with CONF 2 upon selecting flaps 1 we got a flaps locked. According to the ECAM the speed correction was Vref +10 as if the flaps where still in position 2 and the position on the ECAM indicated the same. We then had a discussion with the other colleagues about the fact that in order to trigger the WTB there must be even a slight movement of the flaps that will put you in a situation of flaps < 2, even by a very small undetected amount and therefore vref +15 (from the QRH).
I would appreciate your feedback on that matter.

Thanks.

[Amadis of Gaul]

Sonicbum, just to make sure I understand: you're sweating a 5kt difference? I can see how you might be concerned if the ECAM was saying +10 while the QRH was saying +30, but +10 vs +15 is (to me anyway) close enough for guvmint work, as we say in South-Central Oklahoma.

[vilas]

When the jam occurs you are not in appropriate landing configuration so Vls displayed is not Vapp. So you use ECAM/QRH to correct MCDU Vls but once you are appropriately configured the displayed Vls is correct and you can fly that.

[Gryphon]

had another interesting SIM session where taking off with CONF 2 upon selecting flaps 1 we got a flaps locked. According to the ECAM the speed correction was Vref +10 as if the flaps where still in position 2 and the position on the ECAM indicated the same. We then had a discussion with the other colleagues about the fact that in order to trigger the WTB there must be even a slight movement of the flaps that will put you in a situation of flaps < 2, even by a very small undetected amount and therefore vref +15 (from the QRH).

You cannot find any Vapp or Vapp correction in the QRH when in a slats/flaps fault situation (Abnormal proc or In Flt Perf).

Vref+10 or 15 is from an ECAM procedure (title white background) as read in the FCOM, and ECAM shows the correct increment according to the SFCC signal from IPPU.

It makes no sense to read an ECAM procedure for disregarding ECAM. :ugh:

[Togue]

sonicbum,

where taking off with CONF 2 upon selecting flaps 1 we got a flaps locked

I understand that you took off in Conf 2 and after take off, when you selected flaps 1, you got the flaps locked message. What was the number under the slats/flaps icon? was it 2?

According to the ECAM the speed correction was Vref +10 as if the flaps where still in position 2 and the position on the ECAM indicated the same

As per QRH, for flaps jammed at 2, the correction for VREF is 10. For flaps 1 the correction is 15.

Gryphon,

You cannot find any Vapp or Vapp correction in the QRH when in a slats/flaps fault situation (Abnormal proc or In Flt Perf).

Have a look at QRH PER-27A.

[Gryphon]

Sorry, my mistake! :\

But still I think the ECAM receives the actual configuration from SFCC and it will display the right Vref correction.

[sonicbum]

Gents thank you all very much for your inputs. I share the same thoughts myself but wanted to see if there were some more considerations that could have been made and gather some extra knowledge and there are definitely some very interesting points that came up.

Happy new year !

[pineteam]

Hello guys,

Could someone please tell me why on this table for the go around procedure in case of slats or flaps jammed on the right Colum there is a note saying '' Not allowed" only in case of F>3 and S=0 or S= 0<S<1 ? I'm pretty sure I learned that during my initial training but I can't figure it out anymore..:}. That table is so not intuitive...
Edit: Plus also I don't really see the point of that table. For a go around, I can just rely on the VMAX displayed on the PFD right? It can only be more conservative. I understand if you intend to divert then it’s useful...

Thank you.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/604x387/img_8606_15652__2f3279d722fde657578e7c582fee096420a9efa1.jpg

[vilas]

Hello guys,

Could someone please tell me why on this table for the go around procedure in case of slats or flaps jammed on the right Colum there is a note saying '' Not allowed" only in case of F>3 and S=0 or S= 0<S<1 ? I'm pretty sure I learned that during my initial training but I can't figure it out anymore..:}. That table is so not intuitive...
Edit: Plus also I don't really see the point of that table. For a go around, I can just rely on the VMAX displayed on the PFD right? It can only be more conservative. I understand if you intend to divert then its useful...

Thank you.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/604x387/img_8606_15652__2f3279d722fde657578e7c582fee096420a9efa1.jpg
It's true the procedure is a bit confusing. First the easier part to answer, for Max speed you cannot rely on displayed Vmax, actually VFE is displayed, because it comes from lever position while the limitation is due to most extended surface. Since you're always landing in Conf3 the displayed VFE will be 185kts which is not always the case. That is why the table gives you different Vmax for different combinations. For slat 0 and slat equal or less than 1 it says flap>3 not allowed because you cannot be selecting flap full with slat stuck at 1 or less.

[pineteam]

Hello Vilas,

Thank you! I mistakenly thought we were still using config full regardless. It makes sense now!

[vilas]

Pineteam
You may not refer to the Max speed table. Max speed is the real(not displayed) VFE of the most extended surface at Conf3 which can be seen on the indicator itself.

[Citation2]

In case of go around , while retracting one step up , you get slats / flaps locked. Would you pull the speed instantaneously ? Or let it managed and then pull the speed during acceleration.

pilots are trained to pull the speed but if that occured during go around , pulling the speed will cancel SRS and revert to OP CLMB.

[pineteam]

Pineteam
You may not refer to the Max speed table. Max speed is the real(not displayed) VFE of the most extended surface at Conf3 which can be seen on the indicator itself.

Thanks. the Max speed displayed on the PFD is ok to use as it’s more conservative than the ones on the tables. Got it!






In case of go around , while retracting one step up , you get slats / flaps locked. Would you pull the speed instantaneously ? Or let it managed and then pull the speed during acceleration.

pilots are trained to pull the speed but if that occured during go around , pulling the speed will cancel SRS and revert to OP CLMB.

I will still pull speed. In a go around, Managed Climb is not available anyway. You always get OP CLB after SRS in Go around phase.

[fpuentegomez]

In case of go around , while retracting one step up , you get slats / flaps locked. Would you pull the speed instantaneously ? Or let it managed and then pull the speed during acceleration.

pilots are trained to pull the speed but if that occured during go around , pulling the speed will cancel SRS and revert to OP CLMB.

If you are accelerating you are no longer in SRS, hence you should pull SPD to prevent an overspeed.

[sonicbum]

In case of go around , while retracting one step up , you get slats / flaps locked. Would you pull the speed instantaneously ? Or let it managed and then pull the speed during acceleration.

pilots are trained to pull the speed but if that occured during go around , pulling the speed will cancel SRS and revert to OP CLMB.

Very good point for a discussion. Let's see pros and cons.

- "Go Around - Flaps"
- "Flaps 3 (or 2)"

BING !

Threats = surprise and startle to be added to what caused the go around (unstable ? no visual contact at DA/MDA ? etc..). The greatest priority (as always) is to fly the plane as getting distracted by the ECAM in this "critical" stage will most likely induce a mismanaged go around, especially if it hand flown (we have discussed elsewhere all the problems related to somatogravic illusion and startle regarding the Fly Dubai event), regardless of the fact of being above or below 400 ft AGL.
So the Go around sequence SRS/FMA - Positive Climb - Gear Up must be adhered to no matter what.

Once this is done we have 2 options (provided we are still below the GA accel altitude : Pull speed or let the SRS work.

What do we know : SRS maintains the current speed at Go-Around engagement or VAPP if higher (max VLS+25 kt with all engines working).(KNO) It also gives us several protections, especially if we went around for an actual or suspected windshear.(SAW)
We mush remember though to pull speed before the Accel Alt.(APK)

Second option : pull speed. It complies fully with FCTM guidelines of Slats/Flaps locked and anticipates the threat of a slat/flaps overspeed but we lose the SRS benefits.(APK) (KNO)

Both paths involves several if not all pilot core competencies and both paths can lead to a successful outcome with enhanced safety. The beauty of competency based training rests within those different approaches that can lead to a positive outcome.

[dream747]

In case of go around , while retracting one step up , you get slats / flaps locked. Would you pull the speed instantaneously ? Or let it managed and then pull the speed during acceleration.

pilots are trained to pull the speed but if that occured during go around , pulling the speed will cancel SRS and revert to OP CLMB.

According to FCOM, pulling the speed does not disengage SRS.

Can anyone confirm after having flown the approach in selected speed, on the go around it will revert to managed speed, and the target speed will be limited to VLS + 25 (with VLS speed taking the actual slat/flap position into consideration)?

[vilas]

Pineteam I did not say use indicated VFE but by indicator I meant SFI, the Slat Flap Indicator which will show you position of the jammed surface and help you calculate correct Vmax. Displayed VFE is not always conservative. The present case when you retract from say Flap full to 3 displayed VFE will move to 185kt while the correct VFE is 177kts. So can cause exceedance. So look at SFI not VFE.
dream747 SRS is managed speed mode at ACC ALT it will change to OP CLB. If you go around with selected speed it will change to managed speed in SRS. Design philosophy.
Pulling speed in not a ritual. It's purpose is to stop acceleration to prevent VFE exceedance. If you are in SRS aircraft is not accelerating no need to pull speed. Meanwhile may be put AP on.Wait for acceleration altitude and SRS to Change to OP CLB only then pull speed to stop acceleration and deal with ECAM.

[pineteam]

Pineteam I did not say use indicated VFE but by indicator I meant SFI the slat flap indicator which will show you position of the jam and help you calculate correct Vmax.
.

Sorry! Missread you! Undestood now! Much easier than trying to figure out that table! Thanks :}

[vilas]

According to FCOM, pulling the speed does not disengage SRS.

Can anyone confirm after having flown the approach in selected speed, on the go around it will revert to managed speed, and the target speed will be limited to VLS + 25 (with VLS speed taking the actual slat/flap position into consideration)?
The SRS mode disengages:‐Automatically, at the Go-around acceleration altitude (GA ACC ALT), or if ALT* mode engages (above 400 ft RA)
‐If the flight crew engages another vertical mode
‐If the flight crew selects a speed while in SRS mode: SRS reverts to OP CLB mode and a triple-click aural warning is heard.
​​​​​​
To use a selected speed/Mach target, the flight crew uses the knob on the FCU to set the target speed, Selected speed has priority over managed speed. The only automatic change-over from selected to managed speed target may occur at go-around mode engagement.

[dream747]

The SRS mode disengages:‐Automatically, at the Go-around acceleration altitude (GA ACC ALT), or if ALT* mode engages (above 400 ft RA)
‐If the flight crew engages another vertical mode
‐If the flight crew selects a speed while in SRS mode: SRS reverts to OP CLB mode and a triple-click aural warning is heard.
​​​​​​
To use a selected speed/Mach target, the flight crew uses the knob on the FCU to set the target speed, Selected speed has priority over managed speed. The only automatic change-over from selected to managed speed target may occur at go-around mode engagement.

Thank you Vilas.

Edit: I should have read my FCOM more deliberately!

[vilas]

What we discussed was actually straight forward. But incidentally we discussed go around. Now if you go around from flaps full the lever will be in position three and suppose flaps get locked between full and three. Can someone explain will you land in flaps lever at full or leave it at three?

[dream747]

According to the Flaps locked Abnormal Procedures, it says to keep CONF FULL if flaps are locked at more than 3. I’m not sure if the keyword is here is “keep”, but now that the lever is already at 3 is there any downsides if we shift the flap lever back to FULL?

If we keep the lever at 3, the max speed works out to 177kt, if we put the lever back to FULL, the max speed also works out to be 177kt. Both cases will require the GPWS LDG FLAP 3 to be on.

[vilas]

According to the Flaps locked Abnormal Procedures, it says to keep CONF FULL if flaps are locked at more than 3. I’m not sure if the keyword is here is “keep”, but now that the lever is already at 3 is there any downsides if we shift the flap lever back to FULL?

If we keep the lever at 3, the max speed works out to 177kt, if we put the lever back to FULL, the max speed also works out to be 177kt. Both cases will require the GPWS LDG FLAP 3 to be on.
Thanks! I knew you have to land in Flaps full but I had missed the FCOM reference in the Flaps locked procedure. If flaps are Stuck beyond 3 then you have to land with lever in full due to gain control in Flap3 makes handling very sensitive.

[dream747]

Out of curiosity, what determines the difference in the gain control between CONF 3 and FULL? Is it the actual flap/slat position or it is the flap handle position?

Great discussion, as always!

[vilas]

Out of curiosity, what determines the difference in the gain control between CONF 3 and FULL? Is it the actual flap/slat position or it is the flap handle position?

Great discussion, as always!
The reason is obvious, the handle position. Because the flap is stuck beyond 3 or may be at full but the handle needs to be brought back to full.
747 ignore this post it's incorrect, just check #41.

[pineteam]

. If flaps are Stuck beyond 3 then you have to land with lever in full due to gain control in Flap3 makes handling very sensitive.

Hi Vilas,
Care to explain please?
Why with the lever position between flaps 3 and Full will change the gain control if the flaps or slats are stuck?
Thanks.

[vilas]

Hi Vilas,
Care to explain please?
Why with the lever position between flaps 3 and Full will change the gain control if the flaps or slats are stuck?
Thanks.
My apologies I got mixed up. The control laws act according to actual slat and flap position. There was a runway overrun in Hongkong of Dragon air A320 VR-HYU on 6Junv1994. In it's report it explains everything. There was already an OEB in existence but crew didn't know it. After this accident the ECAM was modified. To quote from it:
The lateral control laws applied by the flight control computers correspond to the actual positions of the slats and flaps (para 1.6.4). During the event, the gains and kinematics corresponding to the Config FULL were not selected due to the fact that the slats were retracted.3.1.20 In this incident, flaps were locked at Config FULL (40°) while the FLAPS lever was set at Config 3 for the second approach, Config 1 for the third and Config 3 for the fourth approach (paras 2.4.6 and 2.4.7). The lateral control law was not optimised in these configurations and was liable to generate, in turbulent conditions, lateral oscillations when the autopilot was engaged and to increase the lateral sensitivity in roll when the aircraft was being manually flown.

[pineteam]

The control laws act according to actual slat and flap position..

What's the difference between Flaps 3 and flaps full for the control laws?

[vilas]

What's the difference between Flaps 3 and flaps full for the control laws?
You can access the report on Google. I will quote the relevant information below:
The Kinematics figure shows that a 5°/sec side-stick demand in Config Full results in aileron and spoiler deflection of approximately 11.5° and 3°respectively. The same side-stick demand in Config 3 results in deflections of 18° and 8° respectively. Clearly the aircraft is more sensitive to controling inputs in Config 3 than in Config FULL.

[pineteam]

Interesting facts!! Thank you again!!