Flooding the market. ATR, A320 engineers.

[skiinoz]

Training organisations, (CASA 147), are absolutely flooding the market with poorly trained engineers, ATR and A320 courses are being run back to back with literally hundreds of guys emerging with type ratings following courses running for as little as 4 weeks for ATR, ALL variants, B1 and B2,4 WEEKS!, followed by a couple of weeks on POC, they are type rated. How can it be possible to be adequately qualified when you could conceivably have never set foot on that A/C type, yet hold a rating.
The A320 courses are no better, CASA is not helping the industry by sanctioning this, it is a sad state when the type ratings and qualifications in this country are now so undervalued, the courses are attendance only, and are basically being given away to anyone who has $10K to hand over.

[t_cas]

Are you blaming CASA or the Industry?

[hiwaytohell]

This would depended upon a) the quality of the course, and b) the experience of the candidate.

For example with good course material and a good instructor 4 + 2 for an ATR would be about right for say an experienced B1 or B2 already licenced on the Dash 8 series for example.

For a fresh B1 or B2 with no other ratings CASA would not just issue a licence without some solid experience.

[Berealgetreal]

All day everyday low fares.

[Diabloblizzard]

I know a QAC A320 course earlier in the year had 30 people on it. Definitely a flood of A320 guys.

I had a mate do an ATR course with QAC and there was only a handful of people who where already employed by companies performing maintenance on ATR-72 or 42s. Definitely not hundreds there as far as I am aware. And also QAC are currently unable to run a Practical course, so guys doing his ATR course certainly ain't walking off all licences up.

In Europe its much the same. Pay money and and pick up a rating just like here. Its a follow on of the EASA and Part 66 system we now use. Have a chat to Harry McDougall. He's teaching all his courses as per what CASA have dictated.

[t_cas]

Don't confuse a type course with a conversion to the full B1. Either for a mechanical guy or a B2 (avionics) guy. Many of these courses are for those that have gone of and done their electrical basics, (say for a mechanical LAME), and then gone back to pick up the differences for electrical on a type already held under the old CASA licensing system. That is full B1 without restriction on type.

It will be a bit like what is unfolding with the part 61 debacle for flight crew licensing. The more CASA try to align with EASA or JAR OPS, the further away we get from being anything near the same..... Or even achieving some form of commonality or synergy.

[skiinoz]

You miss the point Tcas, the experience of the engineer is irrelevant, there is not one type course for an experienced guy and another for a newbie, the ATR course running at QAC is full B1 and B2 on 42-300 and 500, and 72-300, 500 and 600, in 4 weeks, there is nowhere in the world you would get away with teaching that syllabus in that timeframe. Also the feed back from guys who have done there A320 course is terrible, surely you are supposed to learn more than what is the bare minimum on a level 3 course. CASA and the 147 training companies are both to blame, CASA for approving the short courses, and the 147's for churning out course after course of poorly trained guys and making a fortune, with no jobs for these guys to go to. Additionally, the new POC allows for you to apply for the type rating following 2 weeks in the classroom looking at pictures of the component locations, you don't even need to go onto the A/C, is this really the way it is heading?

[yr right]

Instant engineer. Just add water. I've said it before we have never been in such a dangerous place and it's going to get worse. People leaving tafe with a lic is just the start. I said over 15 years ago that this would happen and people will go to the org that are passing people. Adds starting if you pay this $ you may pass but if you pay this $$$$$$ you will pass.
I was quoted 6k to get exemptions of my lic. Plus then accom etc. what for. The system is broken.

[fruitloop]

Instant engineer. Just add water.. Yep you have hit the nail on the head there...I've had the opportunity to "work" beside a few of the "New" ones and it scares me what they actually know(NOT) other then how to pass the exam. With regards the A320 when they were asked to do some trouble-shooting on Major systems they had no idea and relied entirely on using the TSM..(The TSM is a guide and not the "Bible" that they believed it was, Yes it gives you a "Sign-off" for problems,where did Airbus get the information from ??,who said all the correct "Fixes" were passed on the Airbus ??)Experience can't be taught out of a book.

Diabloblizzard
30 people in 1 class ??? Maybe the Moderator has stepped out..

[yr right]

Jack do you have trouble reading. Because if you have been reading my post it's just what I've been saying for a long time. When the accident rate reaches the pilot accident cause then we may have a problem.

[yr right]

Go back to your toy. I've been doing this longer than your been a scratch in your dad's jeans.

[Stikybeke]

Steve.

I think that I've stumbled onto something positive about your posting technique....I've noticed that when your stress level (as associated with the topic you are responding to) increases your ability to articulate your thoughts into writing which can be clearly understood also increases .

For example, with regards to your most recent posts within this particular topic, your response is quite clear and easy to understand. I've noted this before with some of your responses that have had a similar impact so this is obviously a topic that is not only stressful to you but to all concerned. Well done for taking on board the stress of everyone and converting that to documentation that is almost grammatically correct..

Just thought I'd throw this in as there's a pattern starting to form. Maybe that's a good thing....:D

Only trying to help....

Stiky
:ok:

[yr right]

Nah not stressed just working. Notice that jacks post is gone. What a shame. I have no technique
I do suffer from the following.
I hate drug takers.
I hate liars
And I don't suffer fools.

I have a passion for aviation and most importantly aviation safety. And if anyone doubts this go a head I really don't care.

[Diabloblizzard]

Fruit Loop,

as for 30 people in one class, that was told to me by one of the staff at QAC. If have no other way to know if it is true or not, so if this staff member was exaggerating then I am obviously sending out incorrect information.

I have done other QAC courses in the past with 20 people on it, so 30 didnt seem that odd to me. I do however agree that it is to many people for one instructor.

[Engineer_aus]

The days of going on a course for 2-3 months is long gone. I remember those days rather well where I learnt everything about the aircraft! Now it is just a tick and a flick.

[yr right]

Yep and one airline to blame for that.

[Badengo]

4 weeks is the norm for type courses and has been for years! My Dash was 4 weeks finishing at 1pm everyday with the last exam on the final Friday morning, had to wait for pub to open we were that early! PT6 was only 3 days too.

Even with full POC you still need a minimum of hours on type usually 3 A checks for the airframe. Then there's the 6 week wait to be company approved.