What is going on at EK

[Neptune Spear]

While pondering the going ons at Emirates with some buddies we had some questions we couldn't answer so I'm throwing it out on pprune.

A-380s
11 airlines have the 380 (not including the 2 airlines that just received theirs last week) and 10 of those airlines have varying degrees of dislike, to we wish we didnt buy them, to cant wait to get rid of the airplane. None of those 10 airlines are going to buy anymore.
One airline (guess which one) loves the airplane and can't get enough of them. I know we are not industry leaders when it comes to pay and conditions but what is the big difference? Why does Emirates love it when the vast majority of the industry dislike it? It will be interesting to see how the other two gulf carriers who just received them like the Big Bird.

Money
Emirates is very profitable but when compared to,some of the US carriers you have to wonder where all the money is going.
AA made about $2.4 Billion in a quarter (yes that is B for billion and yes that is for a 90 day period), UAL made approx $1.7 B and Delta brought up the rear with Only $1.3 B.
Emirates with their 13% labor costs, fantastic aircraft utility rate, no government agency to regulate them and no labor unions made $1 Billion in a whole year. Where is all the money going?
Is this the reason the company is squeezing us so hard so more money can go out the back door?

I joined almost two years ago and it has been a constant slide to the bottom. I know pilots that have been here longer has experienced a much steeper and drastic decline. How much more are they going to turn the screws on us?
We are most definitely underpaid and overworked. A dangerous cocktail going forward. What is this airline going to look like in a year? Not a pretty site.

[puff m'call]

All very true, you can only stretch the elastic band so far before it snaps, let's see in twelve months. That will also be about the time I'm looking to leave after twelve years. It's all sliding down hill, slowly but surely.

Leave system is appalling, roster system is appalling, per diems are appalling and the salary isn't getting better.

Twelve months, we'll see.

[SMT Member]

1: It would be nice if you would provide some substance to back those numbers. It is certainly within the realms of possibility that BA, LH, EY and QR will order more, and once Air China finds they can no longer buy 747s, they might spring for a few as well. Even more so when Airbus fits the kite with a new team of donks, bringing the much-wanted CASM figure below that of the new 777.

2: US airlines derive a sizable portion of their revenue from ancillary sales, e.g. checked baggage, food, drink etc. All this is still included in the ticket price of EK, which is something most long-haul travelers appreciate. Secondly, EK is a long-haul airline; US airlines are predominantly domestic, one in particular exclusively so, with an international presence. Operating long-haul internationally is rather more expensive than domestic, with max. sector lengths of around 6 hours, particularly when compared to the US. Further, EK's traditional market is hauling people on and off the sub-continent, a large portion of which does not command the disposal income of your average US citizen. This in turn drives yields down, meaning you'll earn less for every passenger carried. Do note, this has nothing to do with the price of a ticket, but everything to do with the cost of producing that seat. In other words, it's about whether you earn 100 bucks on a 500 bucks ticket, or 95 bucks on a 1000 bucks ticket. Furthermore, being a domestic airline the US big-4 are deriving the vast majority off their narrow-body fleet, pottering about on 2 hour sectors. This enables an aircraft to make around 3 round trips per day, carrying a total of around 800 passengers (6 x 150). Compare that to flying a big jet with 400 seats for 10 hours, carrying the same 800 pax a day but at higher cost. And last, but certainly not least, through a series of Chapter 11 re-organisations, most US airlines (with just one exception among the majors) have financially raped their creditors, employees and retirees over and over and over again. To my knowledge, EK has continuously delivered a positive return on investment to it's owners, and have never been even close to filing for bankruptcy.

[bogeydope]

SMT

The only thing I agree with you on, are the baggage fees in the US. The rest of what you are saying is a load of baloney.......

[fatbus]

2things 1st who cares if the 380/ me airlines make money and 2 nd why can't pilots just fly the damn planes and enjoy job of flying an airplane what ever size it is.

[troff]

AB's parent company is EADS. EADS is somewhat owned by… guess who? Of course the whale has to do well here! We're becoming a vertically alligned company- we're almost at the point where we make our own airframes, not unlike the automobile/ truck company that makes their own steel.
Not GM, Volkswagen, BMW or Mercedes… it's Tata.
Anyway, we can all moan and groan about T&C's but to the company's credit, my wife was recently diagnosed with a serious illness and the EK umbrella has opened up quite nicely, thank you very much.
We'd still be waiting another 16 MONTHS for the catscan and petscan with socialized health care where we're from, but we're almost done- from diagnosis to completion- in nine weeks!
That's the part of the package few realize is there.
Go ahead, make a quarter mill on a 320 in China- you're on your own if you or your family members get sick. Good luck!

[Kapitanleutnant]

Troff….

Well said!

As much as I like to dig at EK every now and then, I must say I've heard of more than a few colleagues who've had some pretty serious medical issues with themselves and with family members, and each and every time, EK has indeed come through for them pretty much unconditionally and offered as much assistance as was needed.

This seems to be one area of the entire operation they don't seem to skimp on.

Good on EK for this!!

K

[montencee]

On the other hand, in the course of my wifes treatment for a serious and life threatening illness the medical accounting department called me in to discuss their preferred option of her medical treatment continuing with the 'socialised health care' program of our home country.

Following some argument they did eventually approve the treatment and eventually reimburse my bills and she made a full recovery.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Montencee:

Very glad to hear it all turned out ok!!

Tightseat:

As far as illnesses, I know some have had issues over the years of mold in their apartments or villas yet if you read the fine print, evidently is NOT a reason why you can move out according to the housing department. This mold affects different people in different ways…. some hardly at all and some rather seriously…. but again: Not a reason the housing office has to move you.

K

[Am NOT Sure]

Fatbus

You are a modest man indeed

[sheiken around]

Whilst I'm genuinely happy to hear about the positive medical outcomes of my fellow EK pilots wives and families, lets not forget something...

The EK "medical insurance" is exactly that...an in-house medical insurance in which YOU pay a PREMIUM for your wife and children.

Like any other insurance (Bluecross, BUPA etc), there are limits, exclusions, locations of treatment facilities etc.

So, please don't run away with the notion that EK has "gone the extra mile" to help your wife or yourself - while in fact, any other paid insurance would have done the same.

Personally, I'd be happier if EK dropped their in-house money making insurance (which it most definately is...) and offered us a private, non company invasive medical insurance.

[777boyindubai]

Medical "Benefits" have shafted countless people. We pay for the "free" health care. Nothing free from EK.

[alwayzinit]

It will be interesting if and when the results of the staff survey are published.

EK was an absolutely excellent job. The rosters were stable, days off were usable any many, overtime limit was fair for a long haul operator. The airline was profitable and shared those profits fairly among its employees.

The 92 hours pm have made "quality of life" a redundant phrase, rostering restrictions, principally max 6 then 5 off in a row appear purely spiteful.

As far as I can see we are now flying ULR with a short haul rostering pattern.

On a recent ULR trip all four of us were working on exit plans. Now I know talk is cheap but the plans were pretty detailed for just mind games.

From a personal point of view I honestly loved here 8 years ago, now, sadly I hate it.

EK could be the best airline job in the world but through bizarre management and greediness it is now NOT the place to come or stay.

[SOPS]

100 percent agree to the above.

[AdamFrisch]

Surely, half the battle must be that when EK fuels up at home, they pay what 10% of what every other airline pays for Jet A1? That's a huge savings. One of the benefits of being the national carrier of a giant oil well.

[JAYTO]

And who, may I ask, is paying the other 90%. There is no fuel refinery in the UAE. All fuel is imported. EK must have some very generous fuel refining "brothers" to be paying only "what 10%"

J.

[SOPS]

Oh please stop. EK does have it's faults. But I will protect it when it comes to this free fuel rubbish.

EK pays market rates for its fuel. Out of some ports we tanker fuel into Dubai because it's cheaper to buy there than in Dubai.

This free fuel thing is a total myth. Please stop believing it.

[Geebz]

SMT, that's not entirely true that US are domestic only. Most of the big 3 domestic feed comes from their regional airline partners, by most, I mean 50-60%. So that leaves the remaining 40-50% to be divided up by the mainline fleet. A good portion of that is operating internationally. Most int'l flights don't charge for food, only bags. As far as the debate on that topic it all comes down to the marketplace, the consumer. THIS is what the consumer ultimately wanted, meaning an "unbundled" product. US consumers typically have no loyalty to any given carrier and are often members of all FF programs. They shop in the following manner 1) On-time ranking 2) Price 3) the rest, the fluff.

Nobody really wants a crappy US domestic meal, so why provide it? On the int'l flights, meals are still provided. SWA will start up Central America flights this year and so we'll see if the public choses price over amenities. I'm guessing they'll chose price. If SWA starts to dominate, the US carriers will drop the food on those segments in order to match price. Sure the public will whine about it, but like I said, it's ultimately what they wanted.

Continental was the last hold out to serve meals? It made no difference in terms of customer retention. Sure people would say they preferred CAL over the others, but they'd still fly American, UAL (prior to merger) or DAL just to save 8 bucks on ticket. So CAL had to ditch the free meal service on domestic as well. Hawaiian still serves meals but they typically dominate their markets and are sort of a niche carrier.

With respect to bags... nobody likes it but, again, it is what the customer wanted, by default of their lack of loyalty to any given carrier and their propensity to chase around the last buck on tickets. The airlines tested the waters by first charging $15 for the first bag, then $25, then that same amount for the second bag. Now it's graduated up to $45 per bag. Ouch! But US airline managements also did one thing carriers like EY and QR haven't bothered to consider, capacity discipline. IOW, they keep demand just ahead of supply (of airline seats), which gives them pricing power. They don't order mass amounts of aircraft then guess where to fly them. Instead they surgically pick their future markets and study whether it makes sense to order growth planes. By restricting capacity, all 3 benefit. It's basic business sense.

Don't like the bag charges? You can fly SWA and take all day to get to your destination because of their point-to-point network. But since time is more valuable than money, the core of the big 3 carriers customers still want to fly via the hub-and-spoke system. And seeing how there's a shortage of seats, the big 3 can finally charge a cost-plus rate for the lift. Those who want to travel with too much crap can pay for it. Those who don't can still bring their carry-on. So the big 3 in the US have the ticket price just low enough to be competitive and keep the government off their backs, while competing with the LCCs, but if you want more on your pizza, you pay for it. Want a meal? Pay. Want to bring 10 pairs of shoes for that weekend trip? Pay. Like anything else in life. Want to save money? Eat before you get on board and travel light (what most people do).

As far as the OPs questions, if I may add my $.02. I flew in the M.E. and S. Asia on contract jobs for years, so I'm a bit more qualified to comment than the average Yank who isn't presently flying for EK, EY, or QR. The issues is labor... ME carriers and some S. Asian carriers lack proper labor protections afforded by traditional unions. As long as that's the case there is nobody going to bat for you while you're out flying the line. The only thing assuring your career satisfaction is supply and demand. As long as there is an endless supply of applicants to take your place, which there is, mgmt will undermine you at every turn, with respect to how it deals with pilots, etc. Sure they'll pay heed when they turnover reaches an unusual level. And no they're not going to create all that hostile an atmosphere for fear of pissing off the pilots. But the overall changes in terms of upward progression will always be far less than what the pilots were expecting and deserve. It is what it is. Contrary to popular belief, unions don't kill an airline. Look at UAL, DAL, and AAL.

The only way out is to do what thousands of EK aviators before you have done and vote with your feet. Otherwise, relax, take comfort in the fact that there are still quite a few good attributes to the EK career, and enjoy your time there. Just don't expect much in the way of positive change.

NOTE: I'm not trying to denigrate EK. I have many buddies there who really like it. But having worked at too many non-union carriers in the past, I prefer the union-protection for my career over the offerings of a EK/ QR setup. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Each has it's strengths. Its all about what works for you.

[fatbus]

50 pilots left in the last 5 months.

[troff]

How many piolts joined in that time?

[777boyindubai]

Troff. Please learn to spell pilots. Probably more than fifty (fleet expansion, retirement and people who had enough) Perhaps you should ask why pilots are leaving EK and take note of the increases of the cost of living in Dubai.

[flap relief]

My friend, what are you thinking posting a logical, well reasoned sensible clear post on PPrune.

It may well be a first….!

Nice work.

[thatwasclose]

I am about mid table in seniority . Since May 16 till today I have moved up 30 numbers. Translates to a 2%, at least for the top half of the table.

[Tangodog]

777boyindubai please learn to punctuate and put a period at the end of your parentheses prior to starting your next sentence.

And maybe grow up a bit also!

[777boyindubai]

We don't all punctuate according to American methods. That is why it is called English. Keep busy and go and invade another country.

[Tankengine]

777boy,
That is the best post I've seen in a while!:}
So true!:E

[CaptainChipotle]

Here we go again... more American bashing...

And 777boy, if you're from "England" as anyone would guess from your post, then we learned to invade from YOU! We beat the ENGLISH out of the colonies over 230 years ago, it might be time to get over it.

[Payscale]

People like you drag our profession down to a blue collar domain. Bitching about punctuation and colonial tendencies. Really. Is there a Pprune where for pilots that can share important and relevant information? I am sure that was what the people who set up this site initially intended. It's turned into personal insults and Mine Is Better Than Yours type of posts.

G'day

[ekwhistleblower]

Mine Is Better Than Yours type of posts.

No it isn't!:ugh::)

[777boyindubai]

230 years ago you did indeed beat the English. However you have now become the masters. A failing economy. Prison rates to make people cry. An aggressive foreign policy. Illegal wars and sanctions. I could go on. I know many amazing Americans. There are so many wonderful things in the US. But, that doesn't mean we all have to do everything the American way.

[GoreTex]

777boy,
then stop flying the 777 and fly a europlane

[777boyindubai]

As I said. Lots of great things come from the US.

[OnceBitten]

230 years ago you did indeed beat the English

And everyone else has been doing it ever since.
Cricket, Rugby, Football etc etc to name a few! ;P

[CaptainChipotle]

777boy, here is chance to enlighten yourself. As a matter of fact I just finished this film this morning. It addresses a few of the issues you pointed out in your previous post.

America: Imagine the World Without Her Trailer (Official Trailer) - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi3770789145/)

With all that said, I'm damn proud to be an American, but where I'm from has no meaning in these forums. I've flown with great (and no so great) pilots from everywhere so there is no rationalization between where I'm from and what politically my country is doing. You don't like the US? Go cry about it or write some poetry. I can't send Obama an email and ask him to straighten his foreign policy out, and I can't right the wrongs for the mistakes of anyone before me.

YOU, sir, are part of the problem. Instead of coming onto these forums and adding content or arguing a valid point, you poke fun at Americans. Well done.

Things at EK are dwindling pretty fast. I can't see how pointing fingers at the Yanks is going to help the situation.

[flareflyer]

Is there any chance to ban these two idiots from PPRUNE????
We honestly don't give a s#|ttt about your countries.......
Now please back to topic.......

[Alconguin Crusader]

777 Boy you must love the US and us enough to go down to the US Consulate on two of your off days Without pay just for the privilege to fly to the states.
While you are in the US why don't you check out the US airlines and the pay and contracts the pilots have. Or maybe you already have and that is the reason for your jealousy and bitterness towards the Yanks. After all Delta 777 FOs make more than Emirates captains and work less days.
But Emirates is a good job, just ask any Ryanair pilot or 777 Boy.

[777boyindubai]

Captain and Al. I could write a long reply. Clearly anyone who disagrees with anything American is a Yank hater. Sorry to tell you other people are entitled to their opinions. In the interests of keeping this post relevant to the title, I am not going to rise to the bait. Apologies to all for the thread drift.

[fliion]

Your apology is warranted - and noted.

No one says you are not entitled to an anti American opinion - just keep it off these threads.

If you really want to get off on Yank hating - get on the ISIS sites & indulge yourself.

f.

[777boyindubai]

I wasn't apologising to you Flion or any of the other flag wavers. I have my opinion and will voice it whenever.

I apologised to the others people who don't want the thread diluted.

Get off your high horse!!

[falconeasydriver]

Can't we all just get along and play nice? Besides there is only one true unbiased opinion around regarding the septics.....

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GiKc37mhy58

:}:}

[fliion]

777kid

In post #25 - you somehow took another posters grammatical correction - and talked about the US invading another country.

You should know by now , if you attack Americans on here, it will be defended - so don't go there.

High horse?

Really, back to your American iPad, Airplane jnr

f.

[777boyindubai]

Flion. Americans giving advice on punctuation?? Please. It's English. Not American.

Good the Brits invented the internet. That way Americans could borrow money off the Chinese to afford iPads. Also good that the Brits invented the jet engine. And the passenger plane.

Captain. Thanks for the update on the terms and conditions of US carriers. Perhaps some of us don't just value money and maybe would like a health service free at the point of delivery and not worry about our kids getting killed by another kid with a gun at school.

Why don't we agree to disagree? Lots of great things in the US. Lots of great people. But not everything is rosy. Like many places.

Now, how about we get back to the topic?

[Mullah Kintyre]

In that one post, fliion, you used the '-' symbol contrary to correct grammar on three occasions, omitted one apostrophe and one fullstop, placed a space in front of a comma, used two commas where none were suitable and wrote an incomplete sentence.

Feel free to send your posts to me by PM prior to submitting and I'll have my kid proofread them and send them back. :p

[Aluminium shuffler]

Funny how the Yanks bang on about winning the War of Independence. I had been under the illusion that those "cheese eating surrender monkey" French had won it for them, not only by supplying large numbers of troops and supplies, but also tying up the bulk of the British army in the Napoleonic campaigns. Then again, some may argue that had they "won" that war, they'd still be British and civilised!:}:}:} ;)

Seriously, guys, different countries with more similarities than differences and a long history of co-operation. We don't need to love everything about each other to have mutual friendship - there are good and bad values and people in both. Hopefully more of the good.

[CaptainChipotle]

777 boy

Yes lets agree to disagree. However, I'm not pointing fingers about all the wrongs your country has done or its shortfalls, because I don't care!

You didn't want to lower yourself to respond to my post, even though I was just defending your insults to my country. Then you add further insults. But be careful not to lower yourself (rise to the bait)! That's laughable. I guess my "English" comprehension is above yours....

I have respect for people who come here to add content and argue valuable topics, whether i agree or not. The only thing i've done is defend my country against your stupid accusations, what have you added?