£110k+ EZY MPL scheme [Archive]

sapperkenno

16th Oct 2014, 18:53

And if nobody pays... What then?

Quick thought experiment.

If nobody else paid that amount of money, then how would they get their pilots? Same for any airline. If people stopped paying to work, then the airlines would need to start recruiting people and paying for those people's training. Think about it.

ALL THE DELUDED PAY TO TRAIN MPL LOT ARE PLAYING INTO THEIR HANDS!

If you all stuck together, got yourselves the minimum licences required for the job, THEN STOPPED THERE, it would be up to the airlines to fund your TR, put you on a CRM/MCC/JOC or whatever other crap they call it this week (which would probably dry up and be done away with, once no flight schools were making money taking an extra £1-2000 off all pilots) and train you in-house to their standards while picking up the tab.

Even better would be to stop paying for everything post-PPL. Now tell me why that wouldn't work?

Contrast this with train driving, a job with similar responsibilities to an airline pilot. Fair play it's not flying, but hear me out. It pays a decent wage once trained (circa £35k+ initially with most UK companies, rising to £50k+), and hear this: YOU ARE PAID WHILE TRAINING. So the rail company pays YOU a salary (around £18-22k), trains you up at cost to them, then employs you with (still listening?!) very agreeable terms and conditions. There is a fairly rigorous selection process, and a small percentage of those who apply off the street make it all the way, but that's how it is. Plus, at the end of it all they get a driver who met all the necessary criteria on their own merit (sadly some people aren't up to it) and has been trained by the company since day one.

In the airline world, you have a stupid system where people keep paying to tick all the boxes and add the ratings, try to make themselves more "employable" by paying for further courses etc and trying to get one over their contemporaries to apply for few jobs where supply far outweighs demand. Buying hours on type and all kinds of nonsense. Also, there is a widespread cancer of people not actually having the basic flying skill, or experience built hard-wired knowledge that comes from working their way up the ladder from stick and rudder flying onto more advanced aircraft with a lot more automation (but that still fly like a real plane if you kick it all out) but have little in the way of manual handling skill, and who aren't encouraged to develop more manual flying skills in the normal line of work.

The industry is knackered, with no immediate sign of improvement, especially here in Europe, and I for one am happy scratching a living flying spamcans and have lost any sort of aspirations I had as a kid towards being an airline pilot. Hopefully more people will see the light and stop sucking up the FTO propaganda and paying thousands, and the boot will be on the other foot and airlines will lose their power over the masses and start having to offer training to prospective employees, and pay them a decent salary to attract the right calibre of pilot.

Googlebug

16th Oct 2014, 19:08

We know there is no stopping it. No matter how many people try the if everyone stuck together scenario, there will always be the rouges. With CAA and CTC marketing skills the rot will never stop. Anyhow it doesn't differ to much to people going to a third rate UK university paying 9k a year to get some airy fairy degree. Yes it's a third of the cost but perhaps you could say there's more chance of they will end up will les reward for their capital.

My worry is will these new cadets have jobs for the whole of their 40 year career. (Maybe a bit of thread drift) but how likely is it within the next 40 years UAV commercial jets will be common. If not UAV's certainly single pilot flight decks even if remotely monitored. We talk of airline overcapacity, I predict in years to come there will be world wide pilot over capacity. We need to face the fact we're going the way of the car plant workers.

speedrestriction

16th Oct 2014, 20:52

I don't buy the CAT UAV angle - as professional pilots we fly a little bit but spend most of our time making operational safety and commercial decisions which are frequently nuanced. A car plant is a controlled environment - the big blue sky is anything but.

Bradley Hardacre

16th Oct 2014, 21:06

interviewer,

"what can you offer the Company?"

interviewee,

"£109,000"

interviewer,

"when can you start?"

4468

16th Oct 2014, 21:17

Bradley Hardacre

I couldn't agree more. What else does an employer need to ask? Certainly little need for any aptitude tests if training is entirely at the risk of the trainee!!!:rolleyes:

Endofan Industry

I'm genuinely interested in your post. It's a side of this business I wasn't previously aware of. What is the stepped command payscale, and what attitude do these 'unpalatable individuals' bring with them?

Many thanks.

Jwscud

16th Oct 2014, 21:18

You do realise that the Dutch who go through EPST (but actually train with Oxford) pay nearly 200,000 €, right?

I was unsurprised to find that. Given the attitude and reputation of their output :mad:

vrb03kt

16th Oct 2014, 21:53

The price is absolutely outrageous, but playing devil's advocate let's look at it from a longer term point of view:

They get an A320 type rating, which gives them a much better chance of earning a living than many other TRs AND it puts them right at the front of the queue when, let's say, BA start recruiting. Whereas the likes of me in my turboprop get left to the end when employers have ran out of type rated guys. Is it really that surprising that they want to buy their way up the queue? I'm sure many people on here would do exactly the same thing if they were making these decisions again.

Portside

16th Oct 2014, 21:58

Now let's get this right. It's not just Easy that take advantage of this abomination of employing cheap labour.
Look what's happend at Monarch! (30% reduction in pay for all)
BA / IAG, Review of S/H!
Virgin, consideration of MPL pilots for L/H,
Not to mention the dreaded MOL Army.
Now what is the pilot population doing about it? (sweet F/A)
O yes let's blame BALPA!
Well guess what!! We are BALPA. All of us who pay our 1%.

Stating the obvious;
The economics are simple. The cost of flying families to sunnier climes costs more than £19 a seat. So Mr brilliant Bean counter, sez, I know let's shift the cost to the pointy end, that way our profits are secured. And then pay an FO flumpence as he should be grateful for a job.
The only reason Train Drivers have kept their T/C's are they are organised, and prepared to stand up to any threats from their employers.

Why shouldn't the flying public know that the guy/gal in the RHS is paying for the privilege of being a pilot? And that he/she has a dept of £100k+, and has to come to work fatigued, feeling unwell to furnish his/her dept.
Spleen vented.

Harry palmer

16th Oct 2014, 22:21

Bang on post Portside.

WHYEYEMAN

16th Oct 2014, 22:57

Doctors pay for a medical degree...
Lawyers pay for a law degree...
Getting a pilot's degree (if you will) requires much more high tech (expensive) kit that a musty lecture theatre and a professor or two.

This is no longer the '60s when firms were falling over themselves to offer you a job. It's supply and demand and it's a tough world out there for the late teens / early twenty-somethings.

cvg2iln

16th Oct 2014, 23:20

vrb03kt mentioned the devil's advocate. Timely and appropriate, for what we now need for clarity and enlightenment is another long post from the venerable yet completely impartial (no vested interest or agenda) BEELZEBUB to explain why this ab initio scam makes perfect sense, is the best way of doing business and is intrinsically correct.

A mucker of mine who's a Training Captain at Easy has been grumbling about these schemes for a while now. He feels like he's flying single pilot alot of the time due to the throughput of inexperienced cadets.

Perhaps cash is no substitute for competency - which is derived through experience. Be nice if said mucker along with said mucker's like minded mates were to speak up and put their concerns and observations into the public spotlight.

Blantoon

17th Oct 2014, 00:42

Even better would be to stop paying for everything post-PPL. Now tell me why that wouldn't work?Are you joking? Firstly this would take collaboration on a gigantic scale. Down to the last wannabe pilot. In practice, of course, totally impossible.

But even if you could get everyone in the whole bloody country to agree to put their lives on hold until airlines offer more, you would also need to agree a level at which the pilots all stop boycotting airlines. What if some think that airlines paying for CPL/IR is enough, while you're holding out for paid TR/better T&Cs/lifestyle? Oops, system breaks down.

And then if by some miracle EVERYBODY agreed to the exact same goals, and NOBODY gave in for anything less, as soon as those goals were reached there'd be a stampede for the few jobs that existed. And what does huge supply and low demand create? Wheee back to the start again. :D

The rest of your drivel post really didn't have enough meat in it to even bother engaging.

WhyByFlier

17th Oct 2014, 02:38

Endofan industry, you say you 'work with' - are you a captain for easyJet or an FO?

sapperkenno

17th Oct 2014, 06:58

It's interesting to note that in the States, where they have now brought in the 1500 hours requirement for commercial ops, that a lot of young people are turning their backs on the industry as they don't fancy the prospect of a massive financial outlay for little return...
And lo and behold now, a few airlines are offering signing bonuses to try and get people in, because those who are qualified are turning down the offer of a crap, low paid lifestyle.

Let's see if I can do this bit without drivelling again... It's not so much the money (having enough of it to pay) that grates me, or makes me jealous, but how people are so willing to pay through the nose, to be a slave for an airline and play into the hands of airlines and the training providers (who work hand in hand) who then knack the T&Cs across the board as they wish because there is always a ready supply of the next bunch of idiots wanting to sell their souls and rubbish the system even more.

None of these wide-eyed kids see any of this, as their exposure to it all is only watching pilots in their uniforms at the airport when they go on their holidays, drooling over the advertising pictures of an airliner flightdeck with an alluring view in the various pilot magazines, reading crap on this website (other websites are available) and FALLING FOR THE GLOSSY BS ADVERTISING of the likes of CTC/OAT etc. Get down your local flying club, talk to proper pilots (there will be a few current/ex-airlines, not just flying for fun PPLers) who fly for a living who aren't trying to sell you something, and hopefully you'll rethink it all and get a better idea what is involved. Don't get indoctrinated and think the only way to become a pilot is to part with vast sums of cash.

WHYEYEMAN

17th Oct 2014, 07:16

Sapperkenno, that's a lovely sentiment but try telling that to the people who "fell for the glossy BS" five years or so ago and are now only a couple of years away from a command. I think it will fall on deaf ears.

I'm not saying it's right or fair, I'm simply saying that it is how it is. Feel free to waste time down at your local flying club if you wish, that's not where a career in aviation lies these days.

Wirbelsturm

17th Oct 2014, 07:23

Sapperkenno,

Nice post, pretty much hits the nail on the head but, sadly, won't change anything.

Those wannabees who proliferate through this system will just view those refusing to be drawn in as one less obstacle in the way to them getting their RHS place. If they have the opportunity to pay, be it through bank of Mum & Dad or dreadful loans from sharking banks, then they will take the course as the 'foot in the door'. Unfortunately it takes a few years of hard graft on the line for them to realise that their actions have detrimental effects on their future remuneration.

Be nice if said mucker along with said mucker's like minded mates were to speak up and put their concerns and observations into the public spotlight.

They have, many times to the airlines training managers and the safety council but, as they are running a pretty heavy revenue stream, their concerns fall on deaf ears. Remember, in this industry as in the military, the QRH and change are generally written in blood.

Checked for typo's, missed letters and inappropriately spaced words on an Android phone from the beach in St Lucia after 1 sector! :};);););)

Wodka

17th Oct 2014, 08:43

I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from listening carefully. Most people never listen.

- Ernest Hemingway

stiglet

17th Oct 2014, 09:13

WHYEYEMAN said

'Doctors pay for a medical degree...
Lawyers pay for a law degree... '

I agree:
Doctors pay for their medical degree; Lawyers pay for their law degree, why shouldn't pilots pay for their flying licence? Why are some professions expected to pay for their own qualifications? I would assume it is because their ultimate remuneration is much higher. If anyone is going to have their training paid for surely it should be doctors who benefit the community to a greater degree.

Doctors and lawyers need to have far higher educational qualifications to get into their profession and their training is much longer; 7 years for a doctor as opposed to maximum 2 years for a pilot.
Once qualifiied and employed a junior doctor earns mid 20K whereas a SO earns 40K+.
Yes airline pilots hours can be unsociable and tiring but so are doctors.
So why should pilots be any different?

I think the TR should be paid for by the airline but as for the basic qualification paying for yourself is one way into the profession. If you can get an airline to sponsor you great, if not and you can pay, go for it. The rewards if you really want to fly far outweigh the difficulties.

Many of the newbies are attracted to airline flying for the glamour but has that not always been the case?
In flying, medicine and law most benefits come later in ones career. The difference in the professions is that medicine and law have a much more hierarchical structure whereas in most airlines it is much flatter.

Can a doctor or lawyer expect to earn in excess of 120K within 5 years of qualifiying?

The world is changing and so is the profession. If you want to be an airline pilot this is the way it's going to be from now on and none of us can change it whether we are experienced long time trainers or wannabees; there is no point blaming anyone. The ones I feel sorry for are those trying to work their way up the business through instruction, air taxi and the regionals who now find themselves excluded from the opportunities to progress.

MaydayMaydayMayday

17th Oct 2014, 09:27

Stiglet, medical school neither costs £110k nor takes 7 years. More like £45k in England and Wales (far better deal north of the border, and with bursaries in England and Wales, the figure can be lower, too) and 5 years as standard. Nobody needs to remortgage a house to go to medschool, though. Still, take your point about the more obvious benefits to the community in regard to potentially publicly funding that sort of endeavour. Admittedly, I think the Germans have got it right when it comes to university funding, but I've already gone off on enough of a tangent... :}

WHYEYEMAN

17th Oct 2014, 09:29

Just a note to add that speaking as someone who flies with these "wide-eyed, gullible, spoiled, (insert derogatory adjective of choice)" CTC pilots, they are almost without exception a pleasure to fly with and very competent. When I say almost without exception, I can't remember the last time I had a tedious day out with one.

Inexperienced, yes. But thats why I'm there.

Wirbelsturm, well you're missing a beautiful autumn's day in the south of England and personally I feel sorry for you. :E

Wirbelsturm

17th Oct 2014, 09:29

sad fact is that airline pilot pay is still artificially high. It is a job that doesn't require too much in the way of qualifications (it is open to school leavers after all), it is a semi-skilled job at best, and there is a never ending stream of people prepared to sell their souls to do it.

Ah, that old 'hand grenade' again. It's been around the block so many times it's just not worth the effort replying. :}

Wirbelsturm, well you're missing a beautiful autumn's day in the south of England and personally I feel sorry for you.

Feel free to. :-)

Wirbelsturm

17th Oct 2014, 09:33

Just a note to add that speaking as someone who flies with these "wide-eyed, gullible, spoiled, (insert derogatory adjective of choice)" CTC pilots, they are almost without exception a pleasure to fly with and very competent. When I say almost without exception, I can't remember the last time I had a tedious day out with one.

I would agree, they are very, very good. Keen, attentive, very well versed in the technical aspects of the operation. The applicants and the product are not the problem it's the situation behind them that is. Make the application criteria more difficult as the US has and the situation will change.

WHYEYEMAN

17th Oct 2014, 09:49

I won't ask what you were doing on the beach in St Lucia at 2am. :D

sunside

17th Oct 2014, 09:54

Your training day at CTC will resemble to this:
8ii-xRz0KJg

NOT ORANGE

17th Oct 2014, 11:52

The doctor comparison is total BS.My brother in law is a surgeon,48 and earned over 400k last year private (NHS really) and NHS.Worked 9 to 5 no weekends or antisocial hours and has a cracking state funded pension waiting for him.He lives in a 2 million pound house surrounded by mostly other doctors.He didn't pay a bean for his training.
The 110K thing is just another example of the boomers screwing the young ,50K for Uni,renting from your grandparents generation ,retirement when you 75etc.Good luck, your generation is going to need it.

flieng

17th Oct 2014, 13:10

I have to say that I am ashamed of being part of this sad "profession " of being an airline pilot, I, m proud of my achievements from a dis-advantaged background but not proud of the naive idiots with invariably more money than sense who completely ridicule a previously hourorable and respectable true profession. If you want to compare this occupation with that of doctors, check the real facts as the previous post alluded to, they (medical) would never be so stupid to pay for everything, work for virtually nothing in the hope of "crumbs from the rich mans table" (as an analogy) in the hope of a job. Those that are pay to fly pilots be aware that those around you on the ground respectable engineers , ATC , dispatchers , refuellers and more of the travelling public are aware of what a joke you are, so I suggest humility at all times. You are a disgrace.

Aluminium shuffler

17th Oct 2014, 13:13

John smith, assuming you're not just a troll but a genuine share holder, then you are a part of why the industry's standards are plummeting. If you have money to invest, then it seems a fair assumption that you are well paid. How much did you have to invest into your career, and how many years did you have to spend unemployed and then clawing your way up? How many lives are dependant on your skill and attention at an instant, and how often do you have to undergo proficiency and medical checks that could terminate your career? How many nights, weekends and holidays do you work, and how much restriction do you have over holidays and where you live? And are you really so stupid that you want the jobs to go to those who will accept the lowest pay? Maybe you should start an airline staffed by school drop-outs - they'd be cheap, and who cares about their intelligence or competence? You are a selfish, short sighted and ignorant buffoon.

Three Lions

17th Oct 2014, 13:55

Although they certainly are one of the major causes of the downward trend for general standing and conditions in the UK, It is unfair to focus on ezy, nor their loco partners in the race to the bottom

The comment about Germanys recent achievement of ridding their country of universities charging student fees stands out as a very positive move Here you have a country with pride in itself, achieving through manufacturing and economy whilst looking out for its people. Obviously they hun have identified that allowing those with talent and ability to rise to the top both rewards excellence and ensures their continual existence as a strong and leading country continues into the future. This does not discriminate based on background or financial situation.

The UK has a broken Economy, a broken political system and little regard for its people. No matter what the media, nor the any of the political parties try convincing the electorate prior to the looming election our great country is in fact a total mess.

This, quite frankly, ridiculous process of paying £115,000 to gain employment with one of the bottom echelon airlines (my view and that view of the bulk not employed within the orange propaganda bubble) reflects us as a nation. Poor and low class. I agree fully that the USA change to regulation with the 1500 hour minimum an essential that the industry needs to stop virtually the whole lot been dragged down with the locos

I have to agree there are definately posters on here silently appearing as "impartial posters" who are working to an agenda. It is not difficult to identify those with some "interest" in maintaining the current recruitment path/streams dominating recruitment like never before.

My guess, either connected with an interest to the "current streams" or pretty much propaganda soaked.

NOT ORANGE

17th Oct 2014, 14:34

I agree wholehearted with the above post.U.K. government is massively corrupt and has an agenda to favour the few...doctors,politicians and those sitting on generous totally unfunded pensions.
negotiations with doctors
do you want to work evenings?....no
do you want to work weekends?...no
do you want a 30 per cent pay rise?...yes please
We can pay for that with the VAT we make on pilot training BINGO!!!

Bradley Hardacre

17th Oct 2014, 14:45

John smith wrote,

it is a semi-skilled job at best

and micheal o'leary said,

the hostess can land the plane

john, you are micheal o'leary and I claim my five pounds

NOT ORANGE

17th Oct 2014, 15:45

Depends which lawyers you look at.Is it the ones in London who rubber stamp their public school mates Lehman Brother deals and earn 1.5 million a year or the 95 percent who earn 35K doing whippy claims and putting your car insurance through the roof?In Asia piloting is well respected and well paid.I agree though pilot egos are ridiculous coupled with not much upstairs can lead to the situation we are seeing in Europe.

Mickey Kaye

17th Oct 2014, 16:33

My brother in law is a surgeon,48 and earned over 400k last year private (NHS really)

Well I know more surgeons than most and I don't a single one that is one that figure.

I have also yet to see a pilot do a 100 hour shift whereas 10 years ago that was common in the medical profession.

These have eased up but I know people who regular work over 80 hours a week.

Wee Weasley Welshman

17th Oct 2014, 16:36

Leaving aside all the hysterics I regularly sit next to lovely FO's who are good pilots, nice people and well aware of their inexperience (and bring it up in their briefing). They have spent about £100k getting to sit next to me. They are early twenties and they earn after two years a salary of £45k whilst owe the bank lets say the full £100k.

Their pay is £2,500 a month. Their loan repayment is £800 month. Their rent is £450 a month because they share with another.

This is a lot better than year two of my professional flying career. I was just stopping teaching PPL's on Tomahawks for £8hr and just starting to teach CPL/IR's on Seneca III's for £24,000. Luckily I then bypassed the four years in a turboprop job and went straight to jets in a national airline.

When you sum it up they have things better now than I ever did or my generation who didn't get a BA Cadetship.

This is why there is a queue around the block to sign up to this scheme. Moan, bemoan, despair all you like but its the new normal and its no worse than the old normal. Just different.

flieng

17th Oct 2014, 16:52

The above, Some Pilots have an over-inflated egos the same as members of any other profession. Piloting is not semi-skilled but the Airlines are trying to make it so by technology, spy equipment , sops and specialist training (mpl). Salaries are not "artificially high" but I would agree that the next attack will be on Captains salaries , eventually being on a par with train drivers, around £55k. The jobs buggered by Airline bosses(piss takers) and idiots(P2F), its been a team effort. One post mentioned P2F being "a pleasure to with" there,re unlikely to be any other, that aside they have denied more deserving and probably more competent cases, by their immoral and corrupt actions as well as that of the Airlines. Disgusting.

InformationAlpha

17th Oct 2014, 16:53

Lets just clarify the process of the scheme
By way of finance...
'Airline Placement Limited (APL), a wholly owned subsidiary of CTC Aviation, will part-sponsor your MPL training. The total funding requirement for the CTC WINGS MPL Route in partnership with easyJet is £109,000. You deposit a ‘security bond’ of £69,000 to secure your place on the course. This security bond is deposited in 13 instalments over the period of training and is held by APL until your employment with easyJet. During the period of employment by ARL, the £69,000 security bond you deposited during MPL training will continue to be held by APL until you are employed by easyJet.
easyJet will, in turn, repay the £69,000 bond to you in monthly instalments over a period of seven years in addition to the salary commensurate with experience.
Heres the issue...
You will be required to pay two MPL Training Fees. The first Fee totals £20,800 and is payable before you travel to NZ or USA to commence flight training. The second Fee is due prior to the Advanced Phase of the course and totals £19,200'.
Is this a separate cost?

Now, regarding employment...
'easyJet also continues to select from our Airline Placement Pool of CTC WINGS Integrated ATPL "white tail" graduate pilots which is always open for applications

Generally airlines will make a ‘conditional’ offer of employment prior to the commencement of training and pilots will be employed by the airline on completion of Advanced Phase 4 of training.

On commencement of Line Operations you will be offered a three year renewable contract to fly as a First Officer for easyJet through CTC FlexiCrew. After 12 months flying as a CTC FlexiCrew pilot, you will be eligible to apply for a permanent position of employment with easyJet.
Pilots operating as a CTC FlexiCrew pilot with easyJet can expect to operate, but cannot be guaranteed, a minimum of 750 flying hours in any one 365 day period.

In reality, one pays c.£109k to be rostered out to a recruitment agency, then if it suits the employer (easyJet) you may be brought into their stable after 3 years? Would I be correct in my assumption?

- All cited material sourced from CTC website -

Wee Weasley Welshman

17th Oct 2014, 17:11

That's pretty much it.

Wanna hear about the years of hardship, penury and tough flying jobs I risked my life on in my journey to an airline job? No. Nobody does.

But before we travel too far down the rosy tinted memory lane lets not forget that to be getting a job in a big FTSE100 listed airline in a 70ton jet was until fairly recently a wannabes wet dream and about as likely.

Like so often in life you can either have your cake or eat it but not both.

NOT ORANGE

17th Oct 2014, 18:14

Consultants contracted with the NHS 3 and a half day week full time.That's how they manage 1 and a half days doing private.One day private generally nets about 5K.
WWW I'm glad you love your job so much,I just got bored after 25years of saying checked and set and sitting in a broom cupboard watching clouds go by.My 3 times tables are brilliant though.

NOT ORANGE

17th Oct 2014, 18:54

I recently flew with a young guy who had been dumped by Easy as one of the trainers didn't like him.He had done the CTC/New Zealand thing and now he owes :mad: loads of money and has very little chance of getting a job as he has n experience.
Firstly what a :mad: the Easy head trainer was to chop him.I remember the walking ego his was when I was with Easy 12 years ago but I think this sums up the dumb idiots that inhabit the loco pilot world.
The pilot was really good for what it's worth.
I so wish I too could fly a 70 tonne ,550 mph FTSE 100 airplane but I am not a :mad:.

Dct_Mopas

17th Oct 2014, 19:17

Not Orange,

The training system at EZY does not allow 1 trainer to dislike a cadet and then decide for them to be chopped. Quite frankly if he was let go by EZY then it would have been due to consistent poor performance, possibly combined with a bad attitude.

The decision to drop anybody is not taken likely, and certainly would be a majority decision after various re-training packages. EZY standards are high and a number of people struggle to reach that level required.

Chorlton

17th Oct 2014, 19:46

Not orange , I think you hit the nail on the head . When someone doesn't make the grade & gets dropped , it's a response which generally confirms the training system works when individuals blame the trainers .

It's a very mature thing to look at yourself & seek help to improve , to attempt to understand & remedy your failings & quite the opposite to blame the trainer .

I find the more these pay to fly schemes develop , the more these cadets feel they are paying for a service & the training Captain's job is to get them through !

NOT ORANGE

17th Oct 2014, 19:51

Ok fair enough I don't know the full facts of the case but I think if Easy want pilots that way they should interview them before they embark on a massive financial commitment and make sure they are the sort of person they want.
I just don't know how you can go to a bank manager at 21 and say can I have 110K for the possibility of a job.I reckon my bank manager would have floods of tears rolling down his face if I asked that 25 years ago.

WHYEYEMAN

17th Oct 2014, 20:09

FANS

17th Oct 2014, 20:17

The problem www is that selection is dependent upon having £110k.

Yes flying has always had a cost barrier to entry for most, but this is a whole new level and is really selection based upon parents funding.

Other companies such as BA have found a way around this but ezy couldn't give a stuff and the calibre will reflect this.

ManUtd1999

18th Oct 2014, 11:23

Other companies such as BA have found a way around this but ezy couldn't give a stuff and the calibre will reflect this.

That's the key issue for me. We all know flight training is expensive and CTC are entitled to make a profit. But instead of EZY rolling over and letting cadets take all the burden, a simple loan guarantee would ensure the risk is spread and there are no financial barriers to applying. In turn, CTC wouldn't be able to hike prices year on year as EZY would be exposed to too much debt. If their own claims of a 35000+ salary from day 1 are accurate there's no risk of defaults anyway is there, so why not back the loans? :rolleyes:

dontforgetthecowls

18th Oct 2014, 11:53

There is some interesting debate on this.

I applied for the MPL and got rejected by easyJet after attending their final stage selection at Luton. I have subsequently been accepted on to the BA program. So its not just a case of having the money.

The BA program is £ 94k, they will act as a guarantor on the loan. But its at a fairly penal rate of 3.9%. They pay back £84k of it over the period of 7 years. easyJet dont pay the loan back, but you earn the going rate for a First Officer vs a reduced payscale at BA.

You can guarantee the loan against a house for either easyJet and BA at a rate of 3%. But in both cases your still going to be carrying debt around your neck for 7 years... At least with easyJet you have a chance of having a captains wage within that time to pay it off.

The difference for the cost of the courses is that easyJet require a contribution (or the whole amount?) towards the type rating. The latter phases of the MPL simulator training need to be conducted by a TRI, which is obviously going to be more expensive than a straight CPL/IR instructor.

I wasn't too concerned about the agency aspect of the MPL, because you can effectively offset your training costs against your tax bill. It will take a long time to use up the 100k and you will pay a negligible amount of tax whilst your remain a contractor.

No doubt that the BA program is better for the majority. However if you want to live up north and command is important to you, then its worth looking at the MPL..

dontforgetthecowls

18th Oct 2014, 12:03

...the other thing is that because the MPL has to include the 1500 hours to unfreeze the MPL, if you meet the performance criteria required during the training you have a guarantee of at least 1500 hours with easyJet.

Whereas with BA, the caveat with the employment offer is that BA require pilots when you finish training. If they dont, you have £ 94k of debt and no jet experience.

So if the Financial Crisis V2 happens, then easyJet will still have to give you 1500 hours. Or they are breaching their contract (assuming you meet the required training standard)

ManUtd1999

18th Oct 2014, 12:43

Whereas with BA, the caveat with the employment offer is that BA require pilots when you finish training. If they dont, you have £ 94k of debt and no jet experience.

So if the Financial Crisis V2 happens, then easyJet will still have to give you 1500 hours. Or they are breaching their contract (assuming you meet the required training standard)

True, but 94,000 debt secured against BA is infinitely better than 110,000 of debt secured against a house, despite a slightly higher risk of unemployment in the first couple of years. In reality the risk of BA dropping you is vey low anyway, historically they have always given cadets jobs even if they've had to wait a bit. The risk of EZY not making you permanent or reducing your hours/wage after your 12 months flexicrew? I'd say substantially higher....

MichaelOLearyGenius

18th Oct 2014, 13:13

£110k, I'd willingly sell both my kidneys to get in there.

Blantoon

18th Oct 2014, 13:20

Historically Monarch have never dropped cadets either until all of a sudden a few months ago it happens. "Historically" isn't necessarily the best thing to go on in aviation when things are changing. BAs recruitment needs have certainly changed in the past, and with short haul review coming up I'd say it's not a sure thing.

As for the risk of EZY reducing your hours/wage after 12 months? Pretty much nil chance. BALPA did very well to secure the NEC which guarantees you only spend a max of a year before being interviewed for permanent SO (with the vast majority passing the interview). Which is £40k+ first year at the moment.

That being said. Both schemes are the best choice a budding new pilot has. Pre-tagged is the least risky way forward these days.

FANS

18th Oct 2014, 15:27

Cowls, you're missing the point; if you don't have access to the funding for ezy, you could be the best in the world but you aren't getting through.

G-F0RC3

18th Oct 2014, 18:37

...if you don't have access to the funding for ezy, you could be the best in the world but you aren't getting through.

This has always been my view. A cadetship should ideally be about finding the best pilots for the airline, not the best pilots who can raise £25k. Having said that, there's no shortage of very capable people who can afford to pay the £25k, so it's unlikely to have a substantial effect on the average standard of pilots EZY will eventually end up with.

But anything that has a high chance of getting you into the RHS of an Airbus is clearly still a fantastic opportunity.

Gingerbread Man

18th Oct 2014, 18:56

So, what we're saying is "life isn't fair".

I think I'll write that down.

Alycidon

18th Oct 2014, 19:02

A cadetship should ideally be about finding the best pilots for the airline

totally right, but this is not a cadetship in the traditional sense, the moneygrabbers call it that to attract the mugs, it is nothing more than an indenture.

centropy

18th Oct 2014, 19:22

I wasn't too concerned about the agency aspect of the MPL, because you can effectively offset your training costs against your tax bill. It will take a long time to use up the 100k and you will pay a negligible amount of tax whilst your remain a contractor.

During your time as Flexicrew, you're employed by ARL(CTC) and contracted to Easyjet so you can't offset any tax. Sorry.

BALPA did very well to secure the NEC which guarantees you only spend a max of a year before being interviewed for permanent SO (with the vast majority passing the interview)

To be exact it's between 12-18 months depending on your start date, as Easyjet only issue contracts twice a year. I'm aware of people who have not passed this interview however they can continue to fly as Flexicrew and get another crack at the whip at a later date.

ManUtd1999

18th Oct 2014, 19:31

That's a bit of an odd situation. If you're not deemed good enough for a permanent contract, why are you good enough to continue flying for EZY through flexicrew? :* After all, you still fly the same a/c, same routes, same passengers...

Enzo999

18th Oct 2014, 20:10

I personally believe that any scheme that allows new people to enter a profession so massive saturated with qualified unemployed people is wrong, irrespective of cost. There simply is not the UK demand to provide everyone with work every time a cadet gets a job; it unfortunately comes at the expense of someone else.

For the lucky few that have the funds to buy themselves a job at EZ, my advice is buy it and never leave, because life outside EZ and BA is a living nightmare and it gets worse every day!

Xulu

18th Oct 2014, 20:54

You aren't able to continue as Flexi indefinitely.

If you fail assessment, you are given one more chance to pass. If you fail a second time you are chopped.

Until that second interview chance, you may continue to fly temporarily. It is a job interview for a career with the airline. They want everyone to pass.

cvg2iln

18th Oct 2014, 21:10

Until that second interview chance, you may continue to fly temporarily. It is a job interview for a career with the airline. They want everyone to pass.

Peachy. So you've once failed to make the grade and will potentially fail to again make the grade on a second attempt yet still get to waggle the yoke on a revenue trip with paying punters in the back?

A bit flexible on standards, is it not?

4468

18th Oct 2014, 22:14

A bit flexible on standards, is it not?
This isn't about finding the best pilots.

It's about finding the cheapest pilots. (for the company!)

So passengers can enjoy their cheap tickets, and the board can enjoy their generous bonuses.

Mind you, if I was Easy, I don't think I would invest in pilots who will almost universally view it as a 'stepping stone' airline. One with no sustainable life for anyone attempting to remain for forty years of same, same, same, same, same.

Blantoon

18th Oct 2014, 23:07

To be exact it's between 12-18 months depending on your start date, as Easyjet only issue contracts twice a year. I'm aware of people who have not passed this interview however they can continue to fly as Flexicrew and get another crack at the whip at a later date.The latest I'm aware of it's 4 times a year, so 12-15 months. But we're splitting hairs now.

And 4468, don't talk smack about a recruiting and training process that you know nothing about, and that famously produces an excellent standard of pilot.

WhyByFlier

19th Oct 2014, 02:48

To borrow your sentence, 4468, you seem to have a real axe to grind over Easyjet. Why is that???:confused::E

BA aren't exactly being generous or altruistic by charging £94K are they? And let's see what the upshot is with the SH and eventual LH reviews shall we? Every job is 40 years of 'same, same, same, same, same' - including heart surgeons et al. Only easy are bringing in new routes every year, the choice of 10s of good regional bases and the opportunity to be home every night so you have something else in your life and don't need work to continually be riding and allegedly stimulating your time. We also, as you know, have the varied elements to our job of the weather, different crews and a high standard to meet.

4468

19th Oct 2014, 10:18

Posting at 0348 WBF?

That must be you off on another four sector early report I guess? Doesn't that get to be a bit of a grind after a while? How will you feel if you make it to forty years?????

Which strips of tarmac have you visited today?

Easy have good standards. (But then most UK airlines have to.) That doesn't change the fact that, because of the work, it's largely a 'stepping stone' airline. Which is why I don't blame Easy for not wishing to invest in people who will run off to better prospects as soon as they can.

A quick question if I may. What is the retention rate at Easy, because I know for a fact we see large numbers applying to BA? (Including some who felt compelled to declare themselves bankrupt rather than attempt to payback any training loan!) I assume a fair number go to the big carriers abroad too? Plus Virgin etc?

Jwscud

19th Oct 2014, 10:21

WhyByFlier, FR offer the same too, with added nostalgia. They are also much more equal opportunity employers than EZY - modular, experienced FI, integrated, experienced GA. All are welcome (if they can pay for the TR). The downsides of FR are much-rehearsed and I would say much worse than EZY, but the flying and opportunities they offer are similar.

If you are talking simple price, it is possible to get a job at FR for half the money of EZY If you choose to go modular, but that's an argument for the wannabes forum.

G-F0RC3

19th Oct 2014, 10:32

This isn't about finding the best pilots.

It's about finding the cheapest pilots. (for the company!)

How is this true? There are so many already-qualified people looking for jobs that EZY could offer them a relatively poorly paid position as an FO and the vast majority of them would take it. Little training costs; little recruitment/selection costs; low salaries. This would be my definition of "cheapest" pilots, but it's not what EZY are doing. So I disagree that it's entirely about finding the cheapest pilots. If you look at it purely objectively and try to work out the strategy behind the current recruitment situation at EZY then you'll quickly see that cost is only one aspect of it.

UberPilot

19th Oct 2014, 10:34

Easy have good standards. (But then most UK airlines have to.) That doesn't change the fact that, because of the work, it's largely a 'stepping stone' airline. Which is why I don't blame Easy for not wishing to invest in people who will run off to better prospects as soon as they can.

Flying is Flying! It can and does get pretty dull! I can't stand anything over 2.5 hours! Why would I swap eJ for BA when I could get command in 4-5 years and live in one of nearly 30 bases around europe? Money wise it takes quite a while for BA to catch up, and I live at home and not in a hotel? Flying pays me a salary to let me go skiing and have a relatively comfortable lifestyle where and with who I choose. If my goal were ultimately to sit in the cruise for hours at a time and spend nights in hotels with guys I'v just met then BA would be an option. But its not. I fly to live… not live to fly!

Chorlton

19th Oct 2014, 11:03

From what I hear , easyJet offer a good competitive package , in fact I would say a contract a lot of others would envy combined with the elusive stability all in our industry crave.

As highlighted by others , we all now just fly from one tarmac strip to another whichever colour scheme you have on the tail attempting to prevent the company take on the new EASa FTL.

The money here isn't the problem for those in the industry , the problem for us is the never ending production line out of CTC and the like , creating an ever bulging pilot work force fighting for the decreasing scraps of contracts available to ever more aware airlines .

There will never be another pilot shortage in the UK & I fear all these gullible youngsters are being sold a lie . As they make ever increasing sacrifices to progress & accept the next offer the company makes for promotion with no increase in terms.

This is all without the near ready development of CPDLC , the aircraft will very soon be controlled from the ground , the accept button being a mere polite requirement until legislation allows full control & the pilots will just be monitors .

pilotchute

19th Oct 2014, 12:13

I think the theory behind the MPL is that EZY are gambling on the fact that other employers will be reluctant to take on "MPL" trained pilots. This leaves EZY with a captive workforce unable to move on after a few years if they choose.

Smokie

19th Oct 2014, 13:09

7 years of MPL – 7 things learnt
10 January 2014 - 1:34pm
The end of 2013 marked a milestone for the Multi-crew Pilot Licence (MPL), which had been introduced by ICAO as an alternative ab-initio airline pilot training program with a multi-crew focus. When MPL was launched in 2006 amid great scepticism within the pilot community, ICAO made a commitment to review the concept and assess the global status of MPL implementation. Based on a thorough assessment ECA identified 7 things about MPL learnt in the past 7 years.

1. The MPL programs allow a good level of understanding of pilot’s performance because they enable a better detection of possible competences that need reinforcing. When MPL syllabi are flexible to address individual competence drifts and problems this is thanks to the detailed selection of the candidates and the continuous assessment of the competences build up through training monitoring and oversight.

2. MPL syllabi contain various deficiencies. MPL minimum requirements introduce a drastic reduction of real aircraft time, reduction of real solo flight hours and a strong increase of simulated flight hours. The currently approved MPL syllabi meet the minimum requirement of 12 real landings and even less in some cases. Some currently approved MPL syllabi do not include real Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flights or asymmetric flying in real aircraft. What is more, there is no relevant Air Traffic Control (ATC) simulated environment available to date, which makes the ATC interaction training questionable. And not least, MPL syllabi introduce a global training timescale reduction, including little to no consolidation time (i.e. time to allow for reinforcing the just acquired skills).

3. MPL is a pure co-pilot licence. Training programs of most airlines in the past have selected and trained their candidates towards captaincy. Contrary to that, current MPL programs do not reflect the natural career path of an airline pilot, nor do they provide the necessary tools for an evolution towards it. There is no route plan for MPL pilots to prepare them for the left seat in the cockpit. There is also no proof of capability for a MPL licence holder to upgrade to captaincy and so far no MPL trainee has graduated to Captain.

4. MPL training schemes exacerbate existing training program deficiencies. With less flying time in the aircraft, very limited solo flight time, and less exposure to the real environment MPL training schemes only amplify existing shortcomings in today’s pilot training programs. Improving airmanship, basic flying skills and Crew Resource Management (CRM) skills of its candidate pilots is even more crucial when looking at the reduced MPL training programs.

5. Primarily cost-driven. The MPL syllabus design is primarily cost-driven, with a significant reduction of training time. Tying the MPL licence more closely to commercial needs of airlines – i.e. training more pilots faster – rather than empowering MPL pilots as an independent safety professional is a potentially dangerous practice.

6. MPL schemes bind pilots to one airline. MPL schemes are by definition tailored to specific airlines. Hence, an MPL qualified pilot is likely to face serious career restrictions when (s)he leaves the company or in case of any unpredicted developments at company level, such as bankruptcy or employment halt. Flying with another airline with an MPL licence would always require additional training and qualifications.

7. There is only limited data and feedback on the MPL pilots’ performance due to the limited number of MPL licence holders. Over the past years, MPL programmes have been running across the globe. But recent numbers indicate that by September 2012, there were 1.900 enrolments and only 600 MPL licence holders. This inevitably also affects the quality of data and feedback on the performance of MPL pilots.

In a nutshell, after seven years MPL is growing out of its infancy stage and is quickly becoming a shortcut to the cockpit at a lower price for the airline. Considering the many deficiencies, the potential safety implications and the precipitance with which MPL is being implemented by industry, it is crucial to remedy its deficiencies and to stick to a careful, gradual and precautionary implementation. Otherwise, we can easily fall in the trap of producing pilots who only function within standard operating procedures and when the skies are gentle but do not possess what is really needed to ensure safe operations: airmanship.

Also, is it really that much cheaper than the traditional routes? ;)

flash8

19th Oct 2014, 17:51

In a nutshell, after seven years MPL is growing out of its infancy stage and is quickly becoming a shortcut to the cockpit at a lower price for the airline.

Did anybody naively expect otherwise?

Back in my day we had the Cadets (mainly BA), Mil, the Self-Sponsored also on the Integrated (the well off) and the rest of us, BCPL/Self-Improvers. None of us had an easy ride (even the BA folk) back then.

Now everything is dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Where the heck we would be without glass... a scary thought.

razor27

19th Oct 2014, 19:40

Oh crikey

'Where would we be without glass...'

The aircraft would be falling out of the skies without gods of the sky like you to look after us.

Geez....:ugh:

WhyByFlier

19th Oct 2014, 19:46

4468, knowing the retention rate is outside my job description, pay scale and interest. From all the people I know - many have gone to Virgin, Emirates, Qatar, BA, Mon, Aer Lingus and some to Air NZ, JetStar, Tiger and Air Tanker. There's a healthy churn - some people 'think' they want long haul, some want more time off, some are suggestible and brain washed - they're tired, unhealthy, commuting, have a poor 'life' or are being affected by those that are. I can say that without offending as I have been all of those :sad:

I did 2 sectors with a great crew - flying with the captain was like spending a day with a mate. And then finished off with a raw data, man thrust visual - losing 10000 feet in 18 miles - enjoyable, fulfilling, satisfying, exhilarating flying - just why I dreamed of doing this job. And that's why Easyjet, as a job, is great. I'm very sure BA, as a way of life, is great too......for now......on LH......if you have sufficient seniority.

I feel good about being able to do this as a career but intend to diversify my earning potential so I can 'reduce' and not be dependent on such a turbulent industry - I love the job, not massively in love with the industry. I always feel for the 50/60 year olds at the times I reported this morn. As I'm sure you do on a 777/747/A380 going to the Caribbean or wherever it is you most like. Getting up at 0300, lugging a flight bag, in a polyester uniform, being active and trying to assimilate vital info at that time isn't a pleasure regardless. Making out that it's EasyJet specific or a LoCo thing is nonsense - it's an industry condition.

Jwscud, Ryanair is a fair, legitimate career. They don't over promise and thus don't underdeliver. You know what you're signing up for. It would be extremely low down on my choice list but I'm not knocking it.

4468

19th Oct 2014, 21:15

WhyByFlier

I'm genuinely impressed. Honestly!:D

What you have just described; manual thrust, raw data, manual flying is pretty much the bedrock of what I enjoy most these days! Bravo to you. If that's what you enjoy, then you will never be bored in this job. You've made the right choice, and the travelling public are fortunate to have you aboard! Never lose that!

Of course I don't do quite as much as you these days, but I still love it. Having flown in most environments and types over almost forty years, I flatter myself by thinking there is pretty much nothing I haven't had a go at in an aircraft! Believe it or not though, there does come a day when enough fun is enough. You are right that the negatives of the job take the edge off the enjoyment. I'll be out fairly soon, and will get just as much fun pootling between barbecues at grass strips, and air shows. Can't wait!

Many coming into this business will never know, nor appreciate that joy. They choose this for different reasons! More fool them!

Edited to add:
I always feel for the 50/60 year olds at the times I reported this morn. As I'm sure you do on a 777/747/A380 going to the Caribbean or wherever it is you most like.
We normally report for the Caribbean mid to late morning. (Perfect for a 50/60 year old!) Which means we are at the beach/pool bar for sundowners! Of course I'm normally a little sunburned by the third or fourth day! These jobs all come with risks, eh!

faacfilookingforajob

19th Oct 2014, 21:17

just why I dreamed of doing this job. And that's why Easyjet, as a job, is great. I'm very sure BA, as a way of life, is great too.

join the wannabe line of kids, get a loan and go play with our FMGC! We have bought cakies for you! (sorry, candles are fake!)

pilotchute

19th Oct 2014, 21:21

Smokie,

Got a link to the article?

Smokie

19th Oct 2014, 21:32

https://www.eurocockpit.be/stories/20140110/7-years-of-mpl-7-things-learnt

:ok:

Wirbelsturm

20th Oct 2014, 07:17

We normally report for the Caribbean mid to late morning.

Don't forget Male and Mauritius, slightly later in the afternoon. Nice flights out, three crew (mostly) and a nice visual approach at the other end around a lovely sun drenched island to a manual landing. Some lovely Indian destinations (outside of monsoon!), South America and Central America!

Always remember, the choice is yours in BA bid for what you want. The guys on blindlines are picking up excellent trips as there is so much choice that there is enough to fill almost everyone's expectations. (on my fleet)

This job is a hard or a easy as you want to make it.

4468, I'll see you at the grass strip barbecues in the summer I guess! :ok:

WhyByFlier

20th Oct 2014, 09:58

join the wannabe line of kids, get a loan and go play with our FMGC! We have bought cakies for you! (sorry, candles are fake!)

Call me thick but I haven't a clue what your bitter post is saying. I have 4500 hours flying the A320 - I'm far from a wannabe or in a line.

4468, you raise a good point. In my experience there are 4 main reasons why people become a pilot:

1. For the raw love of flying planes.
2. To travel.
3. For the status.
4. For the perception that pilots are loaded.

I became a pilot solely for point 1 and thus I'm very happy with the job, easyJet (who offer fantastic flying) and the prospect of doing this as my career until retirement. You can never be perfect in this game, there's immediate feedback as to your performance and the work IS meaningful. People who chose it for 2 become VERY frustrated in an airline like easyJet and usually allow their thoughts to get them into a position of divorce, few friends and a middle eastern owned villa:p. People in 3 and 4 are suffered daily, have little interest in the practicality, responsibility or flexibility the job requires. They end out with terrible names and being the subject of cockpit FM in the regional bases!

Ultimately your role and career in BA sound fantastic and it's excellent for you that you've enjoyed it so much. Hopefully BA can continue to offer that career to many more for a long time to come.

As for whether someone chooses to spend 109K on training with EZY or 94K with BA - well, that's there choice. And it's what makes this world go economically around. Thinking that you should control them or tell them what they can or can't do, just because it's 'unfair' on you is madness. Just as some people are born beautiful and can model for millions of pounds a year, and some are born with the 'x factor' and can get away with being a revolting plank whilst earning millions a year - some are born with generous parents, a wealthy background, the perseverance to carry on, keep trying and find a way and some are not. We all make our choices and need to accept that we live with the consequences. It is for us to invest in ourselves, not anyone else first. The majority who are expecting airlines, banks and the evil FTOs to cheapen prices are the least willing to back themselves and invest in their future - I wonder why. It's in the same vein as the benefits culture. I've seen too many people with nothing achieve everything to have sympathy with those that don't. And being an airline pilot, doctor, lawyer, genius, beautiful, good at football or able to sing is no one's right - it takes preparation, dedication, a large amount of risk taking, genetics and opportunity to come together! It doesn't take some lefty, social engineering, unnatural 'I know what's best for everyone' approach that people like Nick Clegg try to impose.

Wirbelsturm

20th Oct 2014, 10:22

The irony is that not that much has changed.

Many moons ago the 'cadets' didn't have to pay anything for their training and type rating. However, generally, they were employed on a 'sub' pay scale for, I believe, 5 years prior to joining the standard airline pay scale.

IIRC that was standard at the time for new entrants who weren't from the military or another airline. This pay differential was substantial and more than covered the airlines commit to training costs. The only difference being that the 'loan' wasn't taxed and the airline saved on National Insurance contributions over the period of the sub category pay.

It seems that the cost is now borne, up front, by the applicant which is a shame as the financial filtering system probably blocks many good applicants whilst permitting those privileged/indebted few through. Also the tax burden of repaying the loan is putting money in the chancellors pocket as the loan must be re-payed from taxed income AFAIK.

It's a sorry state of affairs that, with a little thought and a dig through corporate tax rules, could be changed to the benefit of the applicant and the company.

This will never happen whilst CTC and Oxford sit as middlemen IMHO. :{

Jwscud

20th Oct 2014, 11:06

WhyByFlier - I am also in your category 1. I'm not really sure the MPL is the route for anyone in that category. You don't get anywhere near the joy of doing a PPL, gong out and about on your own, getting stuck into some fly-ins, grass strips, maybe some time in the states before heading for your CPL, then hopefully ringing some of the guys and girls you met along the way in your job search. Plenty of people I know have never gone near the wannabes forum on here and got jobs that way.

The real problem is instructing is an exceptionally difficult way to pay the bills, and all the light twin charter stuff that the generation before me did has disappeared into the ether. Couple the lack of an obvious self-improver route and a big marketing push by OAA/CTC - you can barely pick up Flyer or Pilot without seeing full page glossy adverts - a lot of young guys are convinced it's the only route available.

silverknapper

20th Oct 2014, 11:21

Wirbelsturm

They are still on sub pay scales

JaxofMarlow

20th Oct 2014, 11:22

WBF - excellent post at 10.58 Spot on. No point in moaning about the rules. Love them or hate them they are the rules of the game. Life can and will deal kicks in the teeth. It is how you deal with them that counts. My Dad, long dead now, was a BA TRE. He lost his licence in the aftermath of the Staines Trident crash when heart exams were toughened up. He came from the crap end of Glasgow, flew fighters in the war and then went through Scottish Airways to BEA then BA. Flying was his life but not once do I remember him moaning about his bad luck.

4468

20th Oct 2014, 12:18

WhyByFlier
4468, you raise a good point. In my experience there are 4 main reasons why people become a pilot:

1. For the raw love of flying planes.
2. To travel.
3. For the status.
4. For the perception that pilots are loaded.

I became a pilot solely for point 1 and thus I'm very happy with the job, easyJet (who offer fantastic flying) and the prospect of doing this as my career until retirement. You can never be perfect in this game, there's immediate feedback as to your performance and the work IS meaningful. People who chose it for 2 become VERY frustrated in an airline like easyJet and usually allow their thoughts to get them into a position of divorce, few friends and a middle eastern owned villa.

I'm afraid if you "became a pilot solely for point 1", then becoming an airline pilot probably wasn't the best choice you could have made!

I've always said, the best paid pilot jobs are either dangerous or boring, and airline flying certainly shouldn't be dangerous!

Anyone seeking point 1, most definitely should NOT be considering selling their soul to the devil to sit in the RHS of an airliner! There is so much fabulous flying to be done elsewhere!

There are also non-flying jobs that pay much much better, should you prefer to turn yourself upside down on a weekend at your own expense!:D

Wirbelsturm

20th Oct 2014, 12:25

1. For the raw love of flying planes

If that's what you really want, go and fly helicopters.

If you really, really, really want to get into the raw, manual, seat of the pant's, on the edge flying go for a SAR contract. ;)

4468

20th Oct 2014, 12:37

If you really, really, really want to get into the raw, manual, seat of the pant's, on the edge flying go for a SAR contract.
But the pipe and slippers don't suit everyone Wirby!:E

4468 (3500hrs rotary!)

FANS

20th Oct 2014, 12:56

Mods - can you please close this thread.

It is apparent that this is of no concern to experienced crew, and is only for the (rich) wannabes.

Wirbelsturm

20th Oct 2014, 13:36

(3500hrs rotary!)

Is that all? :}

I still have a terrible urge to call 'torque split call Nr' at the onset of an engine failure! :ok:

3Greens

20th Oct 2014, 13:38

Just to clarify..the cadets in BA used to pay back £250 per month for 5 years AS WELL as being on cadet pay scales for the first 5 years.
All in all I think we paid back about £30k in the form of these salary deductions and reduced pay rates for pay points 1-5.
The cost of an integrated course at OAT circa 1999 when I was there was about £50k. I reckon BA would have been paying a fraction of that as they were effectively buying in bulk.
it was a good deal for BA and a good deal for the cadets. The numbers today are eyewatering and I'm not entirely sure where and how one obtains a £100k unsecured loan either.

Journey Man

21st Oct 2014, 07:55

Mods - can you please close this thread.

It is apparent that this is of no concern to experienced crew, and is only for the (rich) wannabes.

Whilst I appreciate the exact minutiae of the deal are not applicable to experienced crew, the conditions of those entering the industry has a direct affect on everyone. Those effects are moving through the industry faster than anticipated and very few working pilots will be unaffected before retirement.

By making experienced crews aware of these schemes, maybe we can start acting as an industry instead of a company of pilots or individuals.

FANS

21st Oct 2014, 09:03

By making experienced crews aware of these schemes, maybe we can start acting as an industry instead of a company of pilots or individuals

I've got more bad news for you; Santa Claus doesn't exist either.

Journey Man

21st Oct 2014, 11:20

Belief in a fictional character, and aspiring towards an ideal have as much in common as making fatuous comments and intelligence.

cgwhitemonk11

21st Oct 2014, 12:01

WBF - What do you know about 'the raw love of flying' ?!?

4400 ish hours flying 'raw data' 20 mile finals in an A320 with 7 modes of protection between you and any drama ?

Give me a break, its clear you love your job and thats great but don't pretend its something its not. I have friends in Easy who are very open about why they are there (salary and a good variety of bases) and i respect them much more for their honesty.

If you think flying an A320 is that exciting go fly a C208b or a DHC6 into some short strips in wild weather... source ?! I've flown all three. :ok:

WhyByFlier

21st Oct 2014, 12:37

Jaxofmarlow, thanks, I'm glad we are more on the same terms now! I hope things have settled and you've had some luck with the easy application.

Cgwhitemonk11, It's not for you to measure what I know about the raw love of flying. Who do you think you are? And at 26 whole years old! I didn't say 20 mile final approaches - I said visual approaches, rolling wings level at 4 miles, 7.5 degree approaches, managing the energy, tail wind following you around, VFR traffic from a light aircraft airport which is at exactly 8 miles final on a sunny saturday afternoon and rotor effect at 500 feet all compound to make for a challenging and enjoyable approach - I'm based at an airport in a mountainous area!

If you fly the A320 you'll know that the '7 modes of protection' don't do much for you normal ops - having a flap overspeed, alpha floor, pulling the wings off in a turn or breaking air rules doesn't help you keep a job or curry favour with your colleague in the flight deck. Doing it well and having a 'nice job' from the captain as you grease it on in the touch down zone, on the centreline is rewarding, fulfilling and meaningful - to me!

My job is everything I say it is. It's an extremely responsible, qualified, fulfilling, enjoyable, inspiring, beautiful job and I'm grateful to be doing it - not at any cost I'll hasten to add. The earlies and lates are not ideal, the sitting down all the time can give me a bad back and the crew food and uniform are poo! But who cares when I get paid well and enjoy my job - I take it seriously and revise regularly - as should every pilot. Some FOs don't though (perhaps because they are from club 2-4:confused:), get by on naff all knowledge, perform averagely at best and think the job is a joke - when in fact, they're the unprofessional joke - they're again the subject of many a captain's rants. Fortunately, as an FO, I very, very, very, very rarely have to fly with these types. My mates from training, across many airlines across the world do however take the job the same way I do and I put that in part, it pains me to say, down to the way CTC trained us.

I've flown the king Air into snow covered scandinavian runways and piss wet through 750m, 25m wide VFR runways too, thanks. I'm sure it's not quite raw and manly enough for you though.

4468, I became a pilot for those reasons. I justified it because of the income and ability to sustain a career in it for 40 years (offices frustrate and bore me). Many of my pals who decided to stay in the AAC for 8-10 years are at a loose end now with 2000 hours on a lynx. I'm sure it was fun but once you've left, which all want to do, it doesn't qualify you to put food on the table, buy BA holidays, flown by you, to the Carribean or allow you to be established early enough on - as we can see from how rapidly things are changing, please forget how it was back when you left the military 27 years ago and joined BA!

This thread isn't about tme - I enjoy my job, I'm grateful (but could walk away from the job and industry and I intend to make myself robust in this respect.) and I know that the skills, qualifications and ability needed to have a long successful career will mean people sink or swim. I reiterate, it's people's choice to spend what they will on their futures - it could be a lot worse - this could be America!

wiggy

21st Oct 2014, 12:43

go fly a C208b or a DHC6 into some short strips in wild weather...

I've flown the king Air into snow covered scandinavian runways and piss wet through 750m, 25m wide VFR runways too, thanks.

And IMHO, the fact that the MPL'ers will have never experienced the joys of the same or anything remotely similar is, I think, an absolute tragedy.....

But saying that makes my sound like an old you know what, and anyhow I digress.....

flieng

21st Oct 2014, 13:34

Money talks and invariably :mad: walks.

JosuaNkomo

21st Oct 2014, 13:59

Seems this is becoming a great big pissing contest.

You are not a man (or wimmin) with great big hairy testicles until you have flown with yours eyes closed,buttocks clenched, and armpits swimming in sweat onto the thunderbirds home island strip with Parker hanging on every word and Lady P spent in the forward galley.

WhyByFlier

21st Oct 2014, 15:12

So invest in yourself early on flieng!

FANS

21st Oct 2014, 15:32

This thread has descended into chaos, with essays on the beauty of raw data approaches/BA vs EZY ops/BA vs EZY entry requirements etc.

It's not relevant, but on the plus side these new cadets will have some excellent blogs/twitter accounts/youtube videos to show mummy and daddy the beauty of what they've bought.

WhyByFlier

21st Oct 2014, 15:55

Have you flown an airliner or professional military aircraft (not a cadet type arrangement) FANS? A Boeing, an Airbus, an Embraer, a Bombardier or a Canadair? An actual plane - not a sim, full motion or otherwise.

If not, which I suspect is the case, and 'your way' didn't work, perhaps you'd take your strong opinions, bitterness and anger elsewhere.

cgwhitemonk11

21st Oct 2014, 17:06

I'll ignore the tone of your reply and before the thread is closed simply point out one thing. The issue people have the problem with is not you or your enjoyment of your role (quite seriously that is a rarity these days so good for you).

The issue is by the time you have your command the guy sitting in the RHS next to you will never have gone through any real world flying experience outside of Easy, and will have paid extortionately to be in that seat, and you hardly have a world of experience yourself. (Nor do I, for context)

Now 99% of the time who cares sure the things fly themselves these days but I don't look forward to when the MPL moves to the LHS and we have Dual MPL upfront, do you?

Blantoon

21st Oct 2014, 17:28

Would you feel better if they had 1000 hours bashing circuits in VMC instructing experience from 10 years ago?

Experience gained in the environment you wish to utilize it in is far more valuable than that not.

(disclaimer, I am NOT saying that SEP instructing inexperience is not valuable. But it is an extremely rare circumstance in airline flying that requires those skills vs the skills gained from flying multi-crew jets.)

4468

21st Oct 2014, 17:37

Absolutely loving this thread! I'm sure any potential pilots are too!

WBF

Don't know where you got your info from, but it's only 25 years since I left the World's finest Air Force!

Wiggy

You and I need to realise that there comes a time when we don't just sound like KOSs!!!

Please keep going chaps. I'll swing the chandelles

We need more threads on 'war stories'!

cgwhitemonk11

21st Oct 2014, 17:38

I would like to live in a world where at least one of the men/women at the front of an 80 tonne jet travelling at 500 mphish had spent 1000 hrs actually flying an aeroplane….

so yes, that would be preferable provided they didn't go in as DEC :cool:

4468

21st Oct 2014, 17:51

Blantoon

An instructor, even in a C150, will at least have explored the flight envelope. A pilot who has pretty much only ever flown an airliner (95% on autopilot) never ever will! No matter how many hours he/she has!

(You familiar with AF447??)

It seems to give one a certain appreciation that some used to call 'airmanship'.

I believe that may be the invaluable 'experience' to which others refer?

Come to think of it, what was the specific experience of the AF447 pilots at the controls? I genuinely don't know. Some seem to think these machines are just big computers, completely overlooking the fact that they are STILL aeroplanes carrying hundreds of soft skinned humans!

FANS

21st Oct 2014, 20:02

My interest is not as a prof pilot in any way, but £££. Same as the guys at inflexion and ezy, and indeed many of you on the other of the coin.

These threads are useful to me as the opportunities that ctc and ezy amongst others have generated also apply to other regulated sectors.

Where I struggle is with selection by parent's wealth. If Clifford or GS did it, there'd be hell on. Some of you seem to defend it, and then wonder why management keep pick pocketing you.

Blantoon

22nd Oct 2014, 12:33

4468. I am of course familiar with AF447. You know as well as I do that with the myriad of factors involved it can't be used to argue for or against MPL flying. The copilot at the controls was also a glider pilot - can't get much more familiar with the flight envelope than that can you?

Regardless, it still falls into what I called the rarest of circumstances (and is still trained for anyhow).The far more likely life-threatening problem an airline pilot is going to encounter is a medical emergency, fuel emergency, smoke or fire, a defect that requires correct management etc etc. In those circumstances, good CRM through airline flying experience is much more likely to help you than watching 17 year olds fly around at 2000ft, in my opinion.

I will reiterate, I DO think instructor experience is valuable, but I do not think it is irreplaceable.

HidekiTojo

22nd Oct 2014, 13:03

Nearly 40 per cent of all fatal accidents involved some kind of loss of control, making this the most frequent type of accident.

4468

22nd Oct 2014, 13:36

HidekiTojo

Thank you. That's pretty much what I thought.

cvg2iln

22nd Oct 2014, 17:14

Don't know where you got your info from, but it's only 25 years since I left the World's finest Air Force!

I had no idea that you were American.

4468

22nd Oct 2014, 17:40

You're absolutely correct. I should have phrased it better.

I should have said: The World's finest, and the World's FIRST independent Air Force. That would have been more accurate.

Thanks.:E

Edited to add:

The Royal Air Force was formed on 1st Apr 1918. The US Air Force was formed on 18th Sep 1947.

Incidentally, this is why it is never necessary to refer to it as the 'British' Royal Air Force, as one might refer to the Royal Canadian/Australian/New Zealand etc Air Forces.

It is simply THE Royal Air Force! Because that's what it is.

It's what it says on the tin.

Interested Passenger

22nd Oct 2014, 17:56

is this anything like the multi million pound global business that is Formula One?

Good drivers get paid millions, to drive the front running cars. Rich kids pay millions to drive the slower ones.

It's worrying for the passengers in the back to know one of the passengers paid a lot more for his ticket, and gets to fly the rest of us:uhoh:

G-F0RC3

22nd Oct 2014, 19:56

I think it's testament to the quality of simulators these days that much of the training can actually be done in one. I'd be surprised if a lack of "real" flying in light aircraft compared with pretend flying in a full motion simulator made a great deal of difference to the end product. I don't think you need to worry Interested Passenger. :)

pilotchute

22nd Oct 2014, 21:28

Simulators have a "pause button". That is the difference.

4468

22nd Oct 2014, 22:26

Hey G-FORC3.

How many people have died in a simulator? That can focus the senses!

I think Interested Passenger makes a valid point.

172_driver

23rd Oct 2014, 08:37

Spent close to 2000 hrs instructing (VFR and IFR) before joining the jet fleet. If it wasn't for that I might not have passed the sim? A raw data ILS during the TR wasn't a big thing, because whether I was flying SEP or fast jet my scan was significantly faster than my friends' who came straight from school. I attribute this mostly to the IFR instructing I did though.

JosuaNkomo

23rd Oct 2014, 08:47

The experience of the CTC/MPL product with regard to operating and flying the A320 series does not concern me. easyJet have a very good, some might say superb, training department. The command training is exhaustive and the airlines SOP's generally cater for the lowest common experience level.

Where I have my concerns lies outside the scope of button pushing and operational decision making. I think this product (CTC/MPL)will be loath to do the right thing when it comes to issues like the application of commanders discretion. I believe the limited experience of other aspects of flying will allow the company to exert commercial pressure to influence decision making especially in the MPL case.

After all most of the truly spectacular :mad: I made were flying outside the airline environment without prescriptive SOP's to save me. There I go but for the grace of god….sprang to mind on more than one occasion.

Craggenmore

23rd Oct 2014, 13:09

It is farcical to try to compare the trade of being a pilot to proper careers in medicine, law etc. It is apples and oranges.

When doctors fail it's usually one person who dies swiftly followed by a medical cover up to deny liability and compensation - remember that form you signed....

When we fail its a £350 million double-decker and the not-so-small matter of 527 passengers and that doesn't include infants under the age of 2.

If we had as many hull losses as daily medical malpractice, the general public probably wouldn't fly that often.

4468

23rd Oct 2014, 17:52

I agree with Craggenmore.

Purely in terms of 'CRM' type issues, many in the medical profession accept they are light years behind airline's best practice!

If you think of the processes in an operating theatre (for example) in similar terms to a flight, you may see what I mean.

Whilst an essential basis for success, the best 'technical' individuals aren't necessarily the ones consistently producing the best outcomes. Except in individual sports like tennis perhaps???

Three Lions

23rd Oct 2014, 18:24

Its possibly true to say that the CRM with some of the surgeons/consultants leaves a lot to be desired. Medicine and Airline Pilot work were very similar years gone by with respect to professional nature, standing, pay etc

The OP of this very thread indicates the absolute gulf between the two careers today. PAYING £115k. Yes read it again in isolation....

PAYING SOMEBODY £115,000 TO TRAIN

ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN THOUSAND POUNDS... eye watering amount of cash

The Airlines hold only one ace, CRM, but that said the medical profession are taking note and adopting the CRM model, the Airlines unfortunately lag a very long way behind in many respects, in comparison to medicine. I guess in medicine you become more valuable WITH experience rather than simply WITHOUT experience but WITH cash

The medical trade havent allowed the "dumbing down" of their industry, paying £115k to get ahead to wear a plastic anorak, and ability to pay having more clout than ability

Unfortunately the Airline career in 2014 doesnt compare favourably at all to that of the medical man. Plus the medical man can move from one hospital to the next once he gains experience

The CTC model/CTC "product"/path into the loco are unfortunately a reflection of the state of our once great country.

Deep and fast

23rd Oct 2014, 18:53

£115k to become a 4 sector a day slave! You guys must be on crack!

PID

24th Oct 2014, 16:44

There is no way to satisfy people. Period.

In America, to fly the big jets you need 1,500 hours on your ATP to be eligible for an airline interview.

In The UK/Europe, a lot of the times it is possible to get a job fresh from school being Integrated or Modular. No matter wether you paid £40,000 for your training, or £85,000. The fact that Europe Airlines accept cadets is good, right? So why are people here complaining about putting low experienced pilots on a multi million Jet with over 100 passengers when I can bet you that no one would say no to an airline if a job opportunity was given straight after the training! Oh but it's MPL the problem?

Before people start to get angry and go all negative, I'm going Modular, not because I disagree with Integrated or MPL, because it suits me best and I have personal reasons that overall makes Modular a good choice.

But lets stop being the old man who can't adapt to todays society for a second.

fATPL path has existed for a long time, its still the most common way to become a pilot, but has not changed for a long time. Throughout your licences you often learn how to be a Pilot In Command rather than Multi Crew ... at the end of almost 2 years of training, you then do a quick MCC. to then fly for the rest of your life in a Multi Crew environment.

Throughout history, a lot of accidents has been due to pilot error, I doubt any of them had a MPL and/or only started their flying career. And I'm sure that you are now eager to say 'so we just going to sit around and wait for an accident to happen from a MPL pilot?' - No, but for airlines to choose this path is because it offers benefits that can tailor the airline to its preference.

In a fast changing environment I understand why MPL came into existence.
Airlines want to save money, Airlines need pilots quickly and they want to make them their way, Airlines understand the importance of being able to work in a multi crew environment from the beginning of the training to the flight deck!

Now why the £109,000 from EZY? well isn't £85,000 from Integrated alone then £24,000 for type rating? and then £38,000 starting salary!? Why the complaint? It's an investment, Airlines are business, therefore we treat our big sum of money/loan as business too which in a long run we get it return with the best job in the world. But because CTCWings is being honest about the overall price rather then say 'oh by the way theres this more to pay...' on the interview?

What about OAA integrated training then approx £30,000 for Ryanair TR? a total of £110,000.

Whats so special about this one? oh it's MPL....

There are things I still don't agree with MPL such as low flying and more Simulator but this is still a 'new' to the world licence (hence no captains yet) So like anything, it takes time to improve, make changes etc.

I really wish I could understand why is the pprune so negative sometimes.

Even with Aer Lingus people were complaining about paying £25,000 even though the airline says that will pay 75% of the training.

Anyway, let the war begin! ;)

JaxofMarlow

24th Oct 2014, 17:01

and there you have it. Completely :mad: industry with salaries and conditions being smashed to the basement and PID thinks it is Ok. With his 5 minutes of experience. PID - ask the thousands of pilots who apply for every flight deck role that comes up, most of whom are unemployed why MPL and its cut price attraction to airlines is such a :mad: disaster.

Northern Monkey

24th Oct 2014, 17:31

Now why the £109,000 from EZY? well isn't £85,000 from Integrated alone then £24,000 for type rating? and then £38,000 starting salary!? Why the complaint? It's an investment, Airlines are business, therefore we treat our big sum of money/loan as business too which in a long run we get it return with the best job in the world.

Oh boy. Good luck in the real world buddy. I've been flying for 7 years and I used to be like you, now I know what I know. I've watched friends pay £80,000 and get no where. Therein lies at least part of the problem with your argument... even if it is the best job in the world (your perspective on that question will change dramatically in your first 5 years believe me) a significant number of people who spend the money will never end up working for an airline. You think just because CTC rubber stamp your application you are necessarily on the fast track to easyJet? Think again. It will depend entirely on your performance on the course and the economic situation when you graduate.

It is totally impossible to explain to anyone who hasn't done the job. Airlines want more and more for less and less reward. You think £38,000 is a lot of money? I've been paying my loan off (£1200/month) for 8 years and I still have two to go. Mortgage? No chance. I might be able to actually start saving for a house in 2 years when I finally pay it off.

I realize there will be no convincing you. There was no convincing me. I got lucky - I hope you do too.