EK roster

[yvrexpats]

Can anyone post a roster from EK: A330, A380 and B777. Preferably junior pilot.
Thank you.

[Wizofoz]

You are only a "junior" pilot once every five months- we have a rotating roster system.

Seniority plays a role in your group, but the most junior pilot is in the top 20% once every five months.

[JAYTO]

In theory, yes you are correct wiz.
However with some of the top bid rosters produced these days it seems everyone is bottom bid all the time. :)

[PositiveRate876]

The roster is influenced more by the staffing level for your position, rather than seniority or bid group. If they are short on manpower all rosters are horrible, if they are overstaffed then the rosters are better.

[yvrexpats]

Thank you. I appreciate the reply but anyone is willing to post an actual roaster...the good and the bad;) I just want to see what the pairings look like: TAB, layover, days off, duty days.

[nolimitholdem]

A "typical roster" can't be shared, because no such thing exists. The entire setup is completely arbitrary and by the end of it, pretty much random. So I've tried instead to accurately describe the way by which rosters are constructed at EK.

Take a perfectly good computerized rostering system. Whatever you do, don't devote a large amount of IT resources to it. That way, it will get so overloaded and slow when pilots try to submit their bids that they'll give up trying. You've already lessened the load on the company. Great start!

Add countless secret, non-documented rules, relentless layered on by management. In the double standard spirit of the region, said rules can be broken on whim by the company when it benefits themselves, but are inflexible and incontestable when to even minutely bend them might benefit an employee. Be sure to add completely unreasonable, arbitrary limits such as numbers of days off in a row. Good so far.

Then, crew things so thin that it is a mathematical impossibility to actually cover all required flying with the current number of employed crew. Run rostering program to generate current months roster. It will of course, like all systems operating far outside of the parameters for which it was designed, fail. Blame system and begin making vague promises about a new, improved system to be implemented sometime in the near future, like 2030, or right after the nameplates for the StealeyWheelies are distributed.

Next, begin meddling (sometimes referred to as "manual insertions", an appropriately descriptive title). Give preferred flights to friends of rostering staff (aka "Indian mafia"), locals, trainers. Don't miss anyone! We can't have anyone with a name like "al Whatever" doing some night turn to Hyderabad, can we? That's what the grubby expats are for! Now you're getting the hang of it.

With what is left, continue the orgy of robbing Peter to pay Paul, being careful to manually intervene whenever some poor soul might accidentally be given enough days off in a row to try and do something silly, like go home to their own country. If they have leave, be sure to extract nearly the full month's flying in the remaining duties of the month. In addition, be sure to schedule their last duty before leave with a flight arriving in DXB 4 minutes before the first day of their leave. After their leave, be sure to roster a ULR flight first thing to ensure they give up three days off at home to be back in DXB "acclimatized".

Of course the productivity of the lazy pilots must be maximized, so be sure to get as close to the maximum hours - set at a low, low 92 anyway - as possible without going over. Tip: in months with some of the myriad uncredited duties like PPC's, SEP, CRM, you get easily get far more than 92 hours without having to pay for it. Bonus!

Publish roster. Be sure not to do so more than one week before the month following, to ensure maximum uncertainty for people trying to do trivial things like have a life. Watch in bemusement as the frenzied attempts at swapping begins in order that people may actually be able to eke out some sort of quality of life. Witness as the draconian rules prevent swaps from completing successfully, with no recourse and cryptic explanations from the system. Due to the wonderful design of said system, the schedulers can hide behind it without any sort of human contact or accountability at all. Excellent!

Lastly, head to Costa in the atrium for a 2 hour coffee and rub hands together in smug satisfaction at a job well done. Be sure to leave EGHQ not later than 3pm.

I think that about covers it. If I've missed any steps, I'm sure some of the lads will correct that.

Say how's that Globalista job satisfaction survey going again?

[CanadaKid]

That is the clearest, most concise explanation of the roster awarding you'll ever read.

Cheers, CK

[Calmcavok]

I suggest that nolimitholdem's post above be made a sticky.

[lospilotos]

No limit for President!! Or perhaps DSVP of how things actually work...

[Old King Coal]

nolimitholdem: Might I compliment you on a total tour de force of an explanation... bravo!!! :D

[FUSE PLUG]

A standing ovation with the obligatory slow clap for nolimitholdem :D Awesome post.

The only thing I'll add is that if you are on the 777 and are working a freighter pairing and your trip gets extended into a few days off. Plan on not getting those days back or being paid for the lost days. When you call scheduling to inquire about some compensation for your lost days off, they will kindly tell you that you are still above minimum days off so "you're good" and you get nothing in return for your lost time. If that freighter trip is then shortened back to the original length, plan on having those days (which were once off) converted to an "Available Day" where you will be given a reserve period or a night turn. In return for the operational flexibility that you have given the company you get to enjoy the well deserved sweet f#%k all you are owed for your time.

Que the company apologists!

[SOPS]

I have to vote it to be made a sticky....it's excellent.

[FlipFly]

My votes in!

[ruserious]

nolimitholdem, brilliant post only missing one thing

Cram 92 hours flying into ten months of the year, to get as close as possible to the 900 hour limit. Then during a 5 week suspended animation period, sometimes called the Reserve Month, were there are no planned days off, an occasional flight or two, lots of standbys, sim support and totally random days off, all of which are allocated at 6pm each evening.

With what is left of the year, use the pilot's leave allocation to optimise operational needs, by fractionalising it so that the already thin manpower numbers are more readily available, just when the company needs them.

[kingpost]

How can that be, it's a Lifestyle Brand!

[Buford]

So true, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. :D

[Dropp the Pilot]

Do the math on this If they have leave, be sure to extract nearly the full month's flying in the remaining duties of the month, as although it's buried in an excellent post it is by far the most egregious and contemptuous gobbet which is tossed into our cage.

I have had several rosters containing "leave" which, when compared to the rosters of colleagues who had no leave in that month showed that I was producing more more credit hours...

In essence, if you are foolish enough to repeatedly take short blocks out of your 42 days you in fact will receive no leave whatsoever.

'High fives' and black Range Rovers for everyone...

[GoreTex]

91 hrs in 22 days because I have leave, unreal

[SOPS]

Goretex....that is unbelievable! But sadly, I believe it. Essentially, you are being punished for having leave.

[TwinJock]

Of course the productivity of the lazy pilots must be maximized, so be sure to get as close to the maximum hours - set at a low, low 92 anyway - as possible without going over. Tip: in months with some of the myriad uncredited duties like PPC's, SEP, CRM, you get easily get far more than 92 hours without having to pay for it. Bonus!

Now lets speak from recent experiences - 85 "paid" hours for the month of September, plus an additional 39 duty hours for free, mahala, gratis! All legal my friends, all legal.

[PGA]

9 days leave, 85 hours, 1 day ground school, 2 days sim.....

[Alconguin Crusader]

3 weeks leave.
44 flying hours.
Unreal.

[CaptainChipotle]

Same here, this month. Being punished for having leave.

43hrs in 8 days of flying, no augment or ulr flights. Also a mix of far east and westbound africa flts.

Its legal. Sad to say that legalities are the only thing binding our current situation, until the fatigue reports build up.

[flying willy]

66 hours in two weeks. Wrote to management, but they don’t even have the decency to reply.
Everybody who complains on here about the hours, please do fill out an ASR PLUS a fatigue report. I guess that’s the only thing we can do. :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Buckshot16]

Laker ... 100% correct !

[yvrexpats]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question in detail. I was considering a move to the Middle East with my family for a new experience. Are there any Middle Eastern Airlines that you know of that offer a better work/family/life balance? I don't think my wife would be impressed if I was gone more then I am now;)

[Flyboy_SG]

Yes, NOSUCH AIRLINE. www.nosuchair.com

:rolleyes:

[Buckshot]

Just out of interest, on a fleet like the 777 at EK with 140+ aircraft and one base, do you ever get to fly with the same guy twice??

[Plank Cap]

Yes quite often actually - once on the way to Mumbai, and then again quite soon after on the way back............. sorry, I'll get my coat.

[glofish]

We seem to have a new "Apollo Roster Hero" in our ranks.
Thanks for spoiling the party you dork!

Sometimes i'm worried boarding our planes as passenger ......

[donpizmeov]

What's the story Glofish?

[Al Murdoch]

Come on Glofish - someone got an award for that. What do you want to plan your life for anyway?

[scandistralian]

Yep the brown NAJM definately goes to that space cadet!!! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[lospilotos]

Recently in ground school one "cadet" was happily bragging about the preview... We are our own worst enemies...

[Pointer]

Indeed a great thank you, to the (presumably) Female colleague from the southern hemisphere..

If you think they can't be any more stupid.. Voila.. one pops out of the woodwork.. Just incredible..

What where you thinking lady.. on using the Apollo info with your complaint??

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Pointer

(and we can't even fill their mailboxes with filth any more.. they've taken that away as well… where is the fun in all this gone??)

[Panther 88]

The Apollo queen. We really do have some imbecilic clowns in our midst. Almost as stupid as the 380 captain that complained during his PPC that the wx given to him by the instructor was not correct.:ugh:

[littlejet]

So that option is gone as well (can't find it anymore...) Thank you for that. However why is it so illegal and forbidden to have a look at roster making in progress?

[falconeasydriver]

So that option is gone as well (can't find it anymore...) Thank you for that. However why is it so illegal and forbidden to have a look at roster making in progress?

Because Littlejet, the old axiom applies KIP. Knowledge Is Power. Why would the rostering Raj/Mafia want to devolve information that keeps them in a position of power? It's like asking IT for something that is Mac compatible..:ugh:

[aeropix]

Yup. They got plenty of time and money to close any "loophole" to allow us a preview of the next month's roster but still can't assign one of the hundreds in IT to make TRIPS compatible with standard browsers like safari or GASP the iPad. Another great waste of resources.

[BigGeordie]

Somebody far funnier than me commented that they treat our rosters "like nuclear missile launch codes" which as well as being funny is also tragically true.:{

[ruserious]

Thank you for that. However why is it so illegal and forbidden to have a look at roster making in progress?

Because they are worried that people will call up rostering before the roster is published to try and make changes. That has happened and rostering like every department in the company is under-resourced and over worked.

[littlejet]

If someone calls to complain they can simply hang up or remove that person from the bidding system.
I understood that someone disclosed that possibility at ground school and they quickly moved to block that feature. So it was not even that someone called rostering to inquire about his next month roster

[nakbin330]

At about this time of the month, every month, Apollo was crashing. Removing this function has fixed the issue.

[donpizmeov]

Didn't know there were that many Brits working in scheduling Mutts.


The Don

[Praise Jebus]

"Boom - Tish" :D

[scandistralian]

Muttley + Don ... Gold! :D:D:D

[Saltaire]

Late in the month and a Thursday afternoon- still nothing. Where's that survey?

So Sunday the 26th? Seriously?

[Rim-job]

WTF??? Still not rosters???

I'm starting to think they do this $hit to just piss us off!!! :mad:

[cerbus]

We are suppose to receive the rosters 7 days before the end of the month. Anally or orally it doesn't specify but rules only apply to the employees at Emirates.
Technically the 7th day is not until tomorrow but I can't imagine the Enlighten Ones will come in on a Friday.

[Mrs Mangels]

The IT guys are currently running around Satwa trying to purchase a new cassette tape for the Commodore 64 that spits these things out.
Sorry for the delay.

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[donpizmeov]

Luckily most of the cabin crew received their rosters over a week ago. This should teach those lazy Pilots.


The Don

[Panther 88]

Has always amazed me, that airlines with over 10,000 pilots, multiple basings and more than three aircraft categories can get rosters published within 48 hours of closing. 3700 pilots, one base, three categories and it takes sometimes up to 13-14 days to publish. Rubbish.

[halas]

Well Panther, that's what it takes for the "manual inserters" to do their thing...insert!

Having checked my days off on the 17th, l now find two turns (one day one not) have been added since. And of course three XX deleted.

Top bid seems the only time l do turns.

Maybe the new Jeppesen system will help with earlier publication. It seems that in two years they still can't seem to screw it enough to work how EK want it to.

halas

[givemewings]

Actually the GR2s only got theirs a few hours ago, the GR1 yesterday afternoon and the FG1 day before that. So no, not 'most', just the seniors....

Still think it's ****e that flight crew get them so late in the month though.


Hilarious thing is, my only request for Nov was 2 days off on specific dates. Did I get it? Nope. But most days off in blocks of 3. Guess it was just too hard to put one block on the requested dates :ugh:


Saw one CC with 3 days off, a day 2 LO, 4 days off, 3 day LO, 4 days off, 5 days LV, 4 days off, LO for a total of 15 XX for Nov not including rest days. Yet others have the minimum 7/8 off. Where's the fairness there?

[thatwasclose]

Top bid. 777 cap. 11 days off. Flying credit 85:50. One is a doha turn, so I think I get 3 hours credit instead of the 2:25?
2 groundschools. CRM and SEP, both could be done next month. I do have a block of 5 days off. And some flights that i usually request. But if this is the best month.....ahh. As far as the ground school, what credit do I get for them , and are we supposed to have them on top bid?

[fatbus]

Since people like to get all worked up over rosters might as well add to it, bottom bid 380 mid way in the group , got the 3 trips ( layovers) requested and the 4 days in a row requested.

[Kamelchaser]

ThatWasClose...you provided me with a good Friday afternoon laugh. :)

3hours credit for a 2.25 flight...you're living in the old days fella. Try 2.25 credit.

Pay or even roster credit for ground school or your own PPC? Man that went out with the Ark.

I have 123 hours duty in Nov with 95 hours credit. Welcome to the new EK standard.

[Alconguin Crusader]

Pay credit at Emirates? Are you f&@$ing us?
They only time we get paid is for when we are in the seat. We don't get paid for our own PPCs, when we are in the bunk (credit) or sick time.
Do you think the company will give us pay to its lazy pilots?

[canadansk]

Correct you get paid for the scheduled block time.

[thatwasclose]

Actually guys I am beyond the pay part. it was the construction of that 92 hour target. Is there no credit towards that for a ground school ?

[kkholidaze]

Correct you get paid for the scheduled block time.

You have got to be $#!+in me. You guys don't get block or better and they fly you up to 90+ hours a month? Regional in the states have better work rules than that. And here I was considering passing up JetBlue for EK.

[donpizmeov]

That is a shame. Enjoy JetBlue.

The don

[kkholidaze]

kkholidaze,

We may not have work rules but we get to fly a heavy or a 'super'(pronounced with a lisp). if you don't mind working really hard you get to wear a gold star on your shoulder.

Don't want you guys to think I'm hating but I was just under the impression from the gliztshow, I mean roadshow, that you could make a crap load of money while flying around the world with very hot fa's while at the same time getting at least 16 to 18 days off a month. I thought at least block or better was standard.

[thatwasclose]

Kk, he was being sarcastic. EK is not such a great gig anymore. I know some people at Jet Blue. I make more money but they get more time off. And have some job security. And have better rostering. Road show is sales pitch nowadays ..

[The Turtle]

actually KH what we get paid to fly is mostly irrelevant at EK...it doesn't compare like the US system. Its mostly a basic salary here (which is why, in fact when Ek raised the monthly to 92 it was a cost saving move)


ps rosters do suck

[kkholidaze]

actually KH what we get paid to fly is mostly irrelevant at EK...it doesn't compare like the US system. Its mostly a basic salary here (which is why, in fact when Ek raised the monthly to 92 it was a cost saving move)


ps rosters do suck

Wow, Ok I understand now. So in your honest opinion, it's no longer worth it? JB is a great gig and I was considering EK for the money. Was told I could retire with a boatload of cash within 15 years but now I don't know. Plus how much better is the money? I know captains at blue pulling in 200k + while still having 17 days off a month. Hell, fo's make 100k + by the 2nd or 3rd year. Thanks for the insight guys. Oh, and I caught the sarcasm ;)

[SOPS]

92 hours plus a sim and nine days off this month, does that answer your question KK.?

[Emma Royds]

Was told I could retire with a boatload of cash within 15 years but now I don't know.

15 years service with third world rostering (which is never going to get better) will take years off your life.

Once the honeymoon period has worn off, I would say that the majority of F/Os probably don't see themselves staying past 10 years at EK. In some cases, it is considerably less than 10 years.

[SuckItUp]

September, 2nd top bid and got SFA of what I bid for which was non date specific for my home port and a trip no one ever wants anyway, and used to work month in month out........no chance.

This month, top bid, same bid, more than halfway up my groups seniority, same royal shafting, but the obligatory GS and PPC added when I still have 50 days to PPC expiry.........:ok:

Seriously, if you live and work in a real country, and are considering coming to sunny knoteatingham for the glory flying job in the big shiny birds, open your eyes and realize that you give up a lot more than a job somewhere else to come and live "the dream". You give up absolutely everything and likely will not get it back. Want to spend time at home with those who you love, STAY THERE!

92 hours of long and ultra long flying per month, massive circadian disruption, hypoxia, no trees within 2000NM, and roster fiddling so you don't have enough days off in a row to try to get on oversold flights to get home, will likely have you 6' deep in the sand before you fill that money bucket that is one of the current selling points. Did I mention the 50000 hour old seat cushions?.........

If history defines a trend, then they will be wringing their hands heavily at costa in the bouncy castle, to try to figure out the next 70 something to 90 something hours per month productivity increase, for no extra pay move so be warned.

Only one way to fill hundreds of extra wide bodies, and zzzzuper wide bodies, that's to make it cheaper. Who do you think will pay for that saving?

Remember, good pilots just SuckItUp.

[Pixy]

There is a lot of discussing of the symptoms here but not a lot of the cause - or the cure.

I think we should all realize that the 92 hours in 31 days, 89 in 30 etc. is a not a threshold to the Company. In fact they expect more.

Ask yourself:
Assuming you worked every month to the productivity threshold every month, how many productive hours would you do in a year?

That would assume no leave in the year. So make adjustments for that in whatever way you want but the fact remains the total productivity hours in the year would have to come down.

Now ask yourself: If I did these hours would the company be satisfied? And the answer is NO. They want MORE. They have to have more as they simply do not have the pilots to crew all the duties required. The monthly target is in fact ABOVE the average productivity threshold. This is a fact few managers will admit to you. Ask them and they will waffle around the subject of how much is expected.

Hence they have 2 choices: Pay you overtime or take the time from you without paying. Paying nothing is obviously the preferred choice.

The easiest way to take the time is to get individuals to produce duty hours in months where they have leave. (My own view on this is that it is a form of theft) If an individual can produce 92 duty hours in a 31 day month and still have 8 days leave, then leave will have no impact on the duty hours a pilot can produce in a year without having to pay him productivity pay. Perfect.

But what about paying productivity pay above the monthly threshold? It is clearly less attractive than simply writing off leave or keeping productivity at the maximum level without additional payment (a matter of perspective but the same thing).

However paying productivity remains very attractive to the company. The amount paid for productivity is way below what an hour actually costs for a new pilot with salary, housing, education and so on producing his/her own maximum productivity. A bargain!

As I have said before a pilot should only be expected to work to a productivity of 44 hours in a 30 day month in which he has 15 days leave. (15x3 - 1). The company has already defined this logic haven’t they? They expect 89 hours in a 30 day month and 92 in a 31 day month. Any more is both rewarded but provides a fatigue concern. Neither of these factors is removed because of leave. If a pilot had his 15 days leave then came back to 15 days crammed with 92 hours he will be fatigued whether that is spent in an aircraft or a ZFT simulator and the leave has been free to the company.

Rostering are actively seeking to maximize hours in months containing leave. This avoids hiring many more pilots. They have been directed to do this and are getting better at it. A lot of the hours so allocated will be free hours! Hence we see so many reports of this in this thread and others.

Lamenting on Pprune, of course, will not help. Its enlightening to see how much of this is actually going on however and gives a scale of the abuse of both fatigue and fair remuneration.

But you have tools: Examples are to complain (in writing), call in fatigued, or submit your case to the FRMS boys so they can gather data. Only that will stop your exploitation. And it will. There are too many top and middle managers exposed by these practices if they continue and result in a serious problem.

[glofish]

I completely concur with Pixy.

The biggest mistake is to simply call in "sick". You need to call in "SF" - "sick fatigued", unless really sick, certainly. You will have to fill in a fatigue report -> extremely easy and fast, on the portal. No problem at all, you can always hit the "confidential" button.

That is the only way we can fight this scam and enhance life quality and overall safety.

Unfortunately too many among us are simply afraid to do that. Checking rosters still show too few SF days!!!!
I don't know why the fright, at the pub they all seem to be big heroes that would never accept getting pushed around .....

Get the reports rolling!

[kkholidaze]

Wow. Thanks for the enlightenment guys. It's just such a different system than the states. And just want to make sure I got this straight. You guys do seat support in the sim for other guys regularly? Is it a jeopardy event for you as well?

[BigGeordie]

Yes. And Yes. Last sim I did a 2 engine out event for practice which, according to the briefing, was "not assessed". I got a 3 for it. In EK everything is assessed.

[kkholidaze]

Yes. And Yes. Last sim I did a 2 engine out event for practice which, according to the briefing, was "not assessed". I got a 3 for it. In EK everything is assessed.

:o holy s#! + deal killer right there. That blows. I would be on edge all the time. I think we in the US take things for granted. All that glitters not gold. Again, thanks for the insight.

[Kapitanleutnant]

KK…

You said, "I'd be on edge all the time".

THAT is Emirates Airline to a TEE!

It's like flying each sector with a Fed on your jumpseat just watching… waiting for you to make a mistake so they can punish you. At EK, you're only as good as you're last sector. YOu can have a perfect 20 year career here and you make one mistake they think "tarnished the image" of the airline, and you could find yourself unemployed or bumped from your seat.

They honestly do think we are just robots…. we get 8 hours of perfect sleep each night, we could never make a mistake even after doing what is equivalent of doing a coast to coast all night turn-around in your country, etc… you get the picture.

No extra pay for things like: De-icing, holding… which we do probably the equivalent of 2 hours give or take each month.

Remember, the "Contract" you thought you signed at EK is in reality merely "Terms and Conditions" which can be changed. But most westerners don't understand and think the "Contract" they signed with EK can't be changed. Something they just accidentally forgot to mention at the road shows lots of us attended back years ago. Silly us all thinking we had overtime at 78 hours only to wake up to an email one morning saying it had been changed unilaterally to 92 hours.

JB vs EK??? Are you serious??? Not even a decision to be made here!

Enjoy your labor protections and union protections…. neither of which to be found at EK.


K

[Popgun]

Was told I could retire with a boatload of cash within 15 years

BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAAA! :{:{:{

Those days are LONG gone at EK...

PG

[Calmcavok]

Was the size of the boat defined?

[kkholidaze]

So, with all of that said, why aren't guys bailing out of that place like hotcakes? I mean, at least here, hiring is picking up. Every airline in the states is hiring now. Is it that they have too much invested in EK? Bonds?

[Dropp the Pilot]

Gold Star troll

[Kapitanleutnant]

I'd guess most of the pilots leaving EK these days are indeed US types.

There are something like 90 different nationalities at EK on the flight deck and if you looked at most of the countries these fine aviators come from, you'll realize their home country may not be having the hiring boom that your country is currently having. That and a few other reasons are why they aren't leaving in droves…. Most of it being family issues. "The family likes it here" is what I hear mostly. The longer one stays in Dubai, the more you just learn to understand how to get along here, how to survive the antics of EK etc. I get the sense that many are content at EK due to the good quality schools , growing up in an international environment which certainly expands the minds of children, the many friends you'll make in Dubai in the close knit communities lived in.

I've always been amazed that some are able to completely adapt to everything in Dubai and EK… while others can't wait for the bond to expire and leave the day after!

K

[SOPS]

Just let us all not hope we do not get an Ebola scare, or one of those black flagged idiots from the north.

[Pixy]

Again I reiterate: Moaning on Pprune will achieve nothing. No manager will see it and give it credibility even though so much is true. It’s far too easy for them to say it’s speculative, exaggerated and untrue. Any manager who wants to discredit it for their own agenda will do the usual company trick and request data and proof. Even when they have that they will do their best to spin the statistics to draw the conclusions they prefer to peddle.

However we have been given a golden opportunity for change and I don’t think it is merely a co-incidence. I believe the ripples are traveling up the chain through a minority of concerned, sensible and perhaps even ethical managers. I also believe the latest questionnaire on management must have raised some eyebrows.

The golden opportunity comes from our the Airline President himself. I quote:

“My next quarterly update is scheduled for early January. Meanwhile, I expect to hear from you – so do give me your robust views and feedback here.
Here’s to more conversations. Hello tomorrow.
Tim Clark
President Emirates Airline”

The word “here” even has a link inviting the feedback.

So feedback to him. Normal rules apply:

Be respectful
Be factual
Be unemotional
Be professional
Be responsible
Be sensible

Be all you claim to be and take the opportunity given. We don’t have unions, we don’t have collective bargaining, and frankly those are often more trouble in themselves. All we have are occasional chances to discuss our concerns and views and some reporting systems that are unfortunately policed by those with questionable agendas. Now Sir Clark wants to hear it straight from you.

Things have changed before: Look at the staff travel or the utilities debacles. They changed from popular dissent. I believe the abuse of leave and rosters will also change because they are so blatantly corrupted.

If the basic rules above are obeyed, I don’t believe anyone will be targeted or singled out. At a middle level that might be true but I doubt an Airline President and KBE would behave in such a churlish manner. Reputation and basic ethics prevent it.

There is an expectation from your Airline President to hear from you. Don’t let him or your airline down.

[bigdaviet]

Great post above.

Things are not perfect in EK! But there is evidence of change when enough people make their voices heard.

Another example is some of the ghastly night turns now this month being operated with 3 crew. MLE is one example.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Bigdaviet

I believe the 3 man night turns are the doing of the upcoming EASA rules which will necessitate either layovers or 3 man ops once these rules come into play either late this year or early next year.

Also hearing factoring will not be allowed either with this coming change. Just what I'm hearing….

K

[Alconguin Crusader]

Factoring has been in place for the better part of 4 years and is not going away. The company can screw us too easily with that and love to use it against us.
Pilots are starting to leave. Over 30 since July. I know some Kool-Aid pilots will say that is not a lot but when you look at how many pilots BA has to replace or Delta loses a year that is huge especially when you factor (there is that term again) replacing a pilot who leaves voluntarily probably costs the company at least $50,000.
With things only getting worse in the sand it will interesting to see who EK attracts to experience it glorious T&Cs.
By the way Emirates is not honoring 4 items in my contract so if you are really thinking about coming don't say you haven't been warned.

[Dropp the Pilot]

I'll take that bait. Which four?

[gl69]

My old airline has over 200 applications from Emirates pilots so in the months to come there might be some vacancies the company has to fill.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

PIXY Habibi

When you try and leave feedback for TC, it takes you to open house post. Guess what, I submitted a calm reasoned post, and thats right its not been posted. Nor for that matter has anything else by ANYONE in the company!! Zero, nada, null, nothing.

Middle mangers editing again me thinks.

SyB :zzz:

[Alconguin Crusader]

The four times that I can think of off the top of my head are;

The company will not fly me home to my city of record. They flew me home for the first 3 years I was here then stopped.

The will only pay a certain amount of my electric bill. This is what they stated but I must admit I have not gone over the said amount but nevertheless the company will still stick it to me if they want to even though my contract says we will pay all electric, water and gas.

They will give us 25% of the profits above the target in the form of a profit share check. This year not withstanding the last 3 years they didn't pay anything.

A 3% pay raise a year. We have received that most years but twice they didn't pay that item.

I'm sure other pilots have many more items the company is not paying.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

No extra pay for things like: De-icing, holding… which we do probably the equivalent of 2 hours give or take each month.

Geez I probably do that every day, in any other job on a Pilots wages that's the norm. One of the few advantages of being a pilot is engines shut down, rarely take the job home......

[glofish]

Geeeeeeezzz, guys. There's no need for bringing up proof for deterioration in this pit. Any dude crying for that is either not working here or has missed his last appointment with the shrink.

Just pick a nice selfie of 4 years ago and then go and check your face in the mirror. Then check your files of 4 years ago and compare them with your accounts and wallet today. :ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch::ouch:

[Am NOT Sure]

Crusader

Care to elaborate on those dis honored T&C ?

[RoyalEnfield]

Dropp the Pilot: Gold Star troll

Bingo!

[SOPS]

Am not sure...I thought he had. I will chuck in 78 hours overtime. Factoring my bunk time. Sitting in the aircraft at the time we are meant to sign on. Allowances that seem to keep decreasing ( in 8 years I have never seen a station allowance go up, only go down. How this is possible, given natural inflation is beyond me.)

[Am NOT Sure]

Thank you SOP

Valuable insight from all the members

I will always do my bit of safety and saving and hope one day all the work is appreciated and rewarded

[Am NOT Sure]

Can an authentic Ek driver (not the volvos fly wannabe ) post a sample of his A380 FO roster ?

The normal one .. Not the 90 hours in 10 days sort of rosters

Be unbiased :D

[ruserious]

Care to elaborate on those dis honored T&C ?

The single biggest contract dis-honour is Annual leave

Contract states: Annual leave will be granted at the rate of 42 calendar days per annum this includes the 30 days as per UAE labour law and the statutory holidays like Eid and the Prophets birthday

UAE Law states:

30 days a year, where the worker’s period of service is more than one year.
The employer may fix the date of commencement of annual leave and, if necessary, divide such leave into not more than two periods.
In no case shall a worker be made to work during his annual leave more
than once in two successive years.


In simple terms the company is not meeting the word or intent of the law in any way and is drip feeding leave tactically at it's convenience

[Schnowzer]

ANS,

you have no chance of seeing one the boys are too worried. The A380 rosters right now are ok apart from getting the destinations requested due to too few crew, the inability for O/T to be scheduled and too many dumb rules. The 777 is worse and the A330 can compare favourably with Ebola at times.

The big question I think is what 90hrs per month over years will do. We are guinea pigs and if I were you I wouldn't plan on too long a retirement. I guess the industry will find out in years to come.

[whossorrynow]

A380 F/O rosters don't often if ever get close to 90 hours a month, they're working at 80-85 % of left seat level. And as the rostering computer has enough F/Os to do its job and nobody approaches the productivity level of 92 hours there's less manual fiddling and better roster quality.

If they budget for 10 crews per aircraft they do it by having 11 F/Os and 9 Captains, it saves money and the manager gets 10% when he comes in under budget on salarys at the end of the financial year. High fives and back-slapping on the 9th floor, a job well done.

Compared to the left seat an A380 F/Os lifestyle is not at all bad. And luckily a A380 F/O new joiner can now look forward to many years of these half-decent rosters as the airlines probable future growth based on orders, replacements and environmental capacity suggests upgrade chances won't come before the far side of 15 years, if then.

[alwayzinit]

Am Not Sure.

We are being unbiased and no there is no such thing as a standard roster.

My 10 cents worth? If you're not 100% sure then don't do it.

Absolutely nothing being written here is an exaggeration or fiction. It just seems that way as its so unbelievable...................til you get here.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Alwayzinit…

SPOT ON AND BRILLIANT REPLY!!!!!!!!!!!

"… til you get here". It does NOT get any more truthful….

K

[The African Dude]

Hi folks - just wondering if you all feel that your thoughts on things at EK are shared by most? i.e. Are there any who make it work and are happy? With so many pilots and maybe 20/30 regular contributors here - what's the demographic/profile of people who are actually happy? Or are there very few who really are??

Thanks
-AD

[glofish]

Dude, get serious!

You are already stating that only 20/30 guys contribute to these pages, so asking if others think otherwise is spitting into the sea and then check the level rising.

According to the manasystems or whiteknights all contributors here are part of an infinite,whining and unhappy minority at EK and all others do not contribute because they are oh so happy.
(By the way: Why these astronauts still contribute, following their own logic, remains a mystery)

So it's up to you to decide if the apparently overwhelming majority at EK does not contribute and will therefore not answer to you are real and represent the situation more than those who take the time to enlighten you wannabees on these pages.

[The African Dude]

Ok mate - not trying to suggest that anybody is over-egging the pudding here! Just wondering if you know anybody who IS happy and what is so different about their situation??

those who take the time to enlighten you wannabees on these pages Sorry but I'm not sure it's quite as altruistic as you make out... but thanks anyway!

[cerbus]

For the most part the only pilots truly happy at Emirates are the ones that have crap passports or come from crap airlines. That que is for you Ryanair pilots.
It has detoriated so much in the last few years that even the Canadians are starting to grumble.
I read on another thread that 200 pilots have applied to one airline and that 50 pilots have left in the last half year.
There are some that think EK is a good airline but start digging at their reasoning and one quickly finds issues that those few pilots are carrying.
With low pay and high work hours combined with no work rules and a company that does whatever it wants whenever it wants Emirates leaves a lot to be desired.

[Am NOT Sure]

So the A380 roster is so good .. The FOs are afraid to share and risk having me put a spell on it

I am not having second thoughts

Many of you spent too much time at Ek and witnessed the deterioration of QOF as stated a myriad of times

But the way I see it .. Others who spent the same time at other major international airlines have witnessed the same

The population of the earth is growing .. The aviation training academies are coping $$$ . The airlines are not due to traffic limitations etc

Everything has deteriorated .. Not just the white uniform shiny bars world

[HarryDunne]

Oh come on, it's Pprune for goodness sake, only us miserable chaps complain. Considering that I don't have a 'crap passport' or had made my way here from a 'crap airline' then by the logic of (the little-man syndrome plagued) cerbus I am one of these unhappy folk.

Now, regarding reading Pprune I find this recipe helps: take one large pinch of salt...

Harry

[ekwhistleblower]

I'm happy, got a good passport and been with the company since the last century. I have seen a downward spiral but have kept my head above water so far but only because I bought property early and lucked in. Sell by date rapidly approaching as kids have left but have no where to go that can offer the same lifestyle in the short term because I would go to the bottom of a proper seniority list and I won't go to China!

Would I join now? No! For one reason only. I cannot see with the present conditions how I could get to where I am now in a realistic timescale. The EK salary has diminished in real terms massively since I joined and the time to command means the relief of a Captain's salary will come too late.

My advice would be to make a comparison sheet of where you will be 10/15 years down the line. Include pay, where you will want to live, what you want to fly etc. and see whether EK ticks the boxes. At the outset for me it did, right now it wouldn't but if the T&Cs changed positively it might.

[TCU LUX]

What's up with all these AD's (available days) :ugh::ugh:

These muppets just can't give an off day :yuk:.

It's either 91.99999999 hours per month or something less with all these f*uck1ng AD's.

Just wait for the new rostering system - it's just going to get worse.

For all those considering joining EK - do yourself a big favour and avoid. Especially if you are a new Cpt or a Senior FO with command on the horizon. Stick it out with your current outfit and be happy in the knowledge that the grass is not always greener on the other side - it certainly is not. (If you're unemployed that's a different storey)

Broken promises and an accelerated downward spiral in quality of life. Do not believe what the EK recruiters tell you on the roadshows - or what you see on those propaganda videos on the website.

As someone else said on this forum - a short haul roster for a long haul operation.

Rant over.....for now :*

[Neptune Spear]

Be very careful before you sign up for emirates. It is not what it seems with regards to the roadshows.

[Mach_Krit]

if the grass is greener on the other side, it´s probably because it rains a hell of a lot more.

[Sqwak7700]

Sounds like emirates pilots need to work on their sickness rate.

Here at Cathay, ours is 17% and has peaked over 30% on some fleets and ranks.

Come on boys, PRAs are the only way to teach them how its done. :ok:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Sqwak
Why don't you suggest a job swap, you'll go to EK and realise the grass is green, and EK guys can go to CX and realise the grass is green............
Same old same old, get another job :ugh:

[A320fanatic]

A bit off topic but could anybody tell me where the "Max 15 days off in a month" comes from ???? Trying to swap, everything else is legal except that ... is that written somewhere ?

[Pixy]

I'm curious and looking for some rough idea of the scale of the problem.

If any of you had leave during part of a month in the last year:

How many days leave did you have in that month?
How many productivity hours did you do in the remainder of the month?

I have heard some tough stories and there are a few examples on this thread. Are there many more or are these a few unfortunate exceptions? Are there cases where it was in a fair ratio? Is this simply a cynical practice to deliberately avoid payment for hours or write off leave as unpaid leave?

[Schnowzer]

A couple of months ago. 5 days leave, flew 84 hours. Leave credit is 2.5hrs/day so should have flown 79.

[BigGeordie]

Similar experience, 5 days leave at the end of a month, 86 hours block time. No groundschool, sim or other duties.

[what_goes_up]

16 days leave, 55:30 hours plus 1 ground school day...

[Rim-job]

Two months ago I flew 68 hours and had 14 days leave.

I did 2 ULR and 1 turn around.

:mad:

[SOPS]

There is no credit for leave. Essentially these days, you are punished for having leave ( if you are fortunate to get any leave in the first place).

[montencee]

The 2.5 hours credit for a leave day along with any credit for the usual ground duties was binned a few years ago.

Last summer 18 days of leave, 59.2 hours.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Squawk…

I've heard the boys at EK are called into the office for too many sick days and threatened with their job…. "You may not be the type of pilot Emirates wants".

Ruling by fear and intimidation has its benefits… FOR MANAGEMENT!!

K

[what_goes_up]

Squawk…

I've heard the boys at EK are called into the office for too many sick days and threatened with their job…. "You may not be the type of pilot Emirates wants".

Ruling by fear and intimidation has its benefits… FOR MANAGEMENT!!

K
Can only talk from my own experience. But I was out of work for a few months and did not get a call whatsoever. Not even the slightes push to come and work in the office...

[SyncPilot]

Hey guys,

If you do not use the entire 42 days until 31st March, can you use it after or you lost some days?

thanks :ooh:

[sluggums]

It gets carried over.

[Alconguin Crusader]

3 weeks leave, flew 44 hours.
A total disregard for pilots. Why doesn't the company just come out and say they hate it's employees and especially it's pilots instead of doing all this underhanded and back door tactics?

[GoreTex]

92 hrs in 19 days after leave

[BigGeordie]

We have a winner! Bet somebody got a Najam for that piece of rostering.:eek:

[CaptainChipotle]

How many of you called SKF? Nothing will change if you keep flying rosters like that.

Fill out the form, its easy, and if you have a justified case you won't hear anything (speaking from my own experience)

[desertflyer]

Called in sick fatigue as a trainer and 10 minutes later the phone rang and the supervisor offered me an off day. I told him no, show it as sick fatigued, since that is what I am. GCAA sees all sick fatigues........

[CamelRustler]

WGU- It's not the number of days you are out sick that get you called in, it's the number of times you call in sick coupled with the number of days. If there is a pattern there would be a higher chance of getting called in. (Unless you are local.) The issue is, that asking for a brief written letter to tell them I ate something at their CR@ppy hotel in Africa twice this year and got the FLU once, would save me a half day trip to HQ. However, requiring me to come in on my day off to kindly explain myself is a slap in the face. Either you trust me or you don't. Which is it? Furthermore, I have also called SKF more than once. This was done on horrific schedules, and I was exceptionally tired. SKF needs to be used guys if that's what it is. Otherwise you are partly responsible for the unbelievable scheduling practices.

[what_goes_up]

Camel
I buy that. As said, this was from my experience. Maybe I was not on their scope for other reason.

[colo18]

Hello guys!

I rather post here since you are ALL EK pilots and are already IN the company.

I am leaving from Boston tonight going to Dubai for interview 10-13 Nov.

I am from Panama, former QR pilot. Was flying a private jet for the last year and a half but currently unemployed for the last 2 months. Have 4 kids so really need to land this opportunity...

Any advice or info that can be helpful during my interview?

Thanks in advance

[Am NOT Sure]

Hello colo

I assume you had been acquainted with the already available preparation sources online (thoroughly - you have no excuse )

Now you must be under tremendous stress but this can play to you advantage

Even if money is tight see to it that u have a catchy dark suit ( it says although I am unemployed but I have standards and self confidence and not here to get wide body hours and wave the flag )

The process is honest and straight forward as you are evaluated on your over all performance and compatibility

Be honest when you answer the psycho questions and during the interview with the psychologist - they can detect lies = no job

Make friends during your stay at the hotel with the other candidates .. Your group exercises will be greatly improved when you guys know and respect each other

Good luck

[colo18]

Thanks a lot!

Hope everything goes well...

Have a wonderful career here. I wish I could as well...

[Am NOT Sure]

Colo
Free free to get in touch on PM

Hope to personally welcome you soon before summer comes back