Shocking or Acceptable behaviour?

[BusAirDriver]

Recently a management member of an airline sent out this e-mail to their pilots. How would you react?


Dear Pilots,
This email is directed to thus pilots who are leaving soon or are going to leave Company X.

Everyone has right to terminate his contract according to his best interest, but you must to take into consideration that starting it you took and guaranteed some obligations.

We experienced during last time many situations that pilots failed to fulfil their obligations towards Company X, or their operational reliability dropped down significantly. Every single case is investigated.

I would like to inform you that: everyone who try to terminate his contract without proper notice period, or to leave without agreement regarding bond, or demonstrating improper attitude, or finally, who is causing disturbance in operations will not receive any certificates required by his future employer (also security), or feedback will include full opinion about your reliability as employee or service provider (including adequate statistics).

This may have direct impact on your future career.

I would like to remind you that it was banned to Base Captains to issue any certificates without Fleet Managers approval. Hours flown are available for yourself from AIMS, but it won’t be certified by company representative until all required conditions are met.

PLEASE ACT RESPONSIBLY

[captseth]

Contract world not for the faint of heart.

Docs unavailable? Hmmm..what to do?

[Chocks Away]

An Utter disgrace!
Who the hell do they think they are?
It's called "extortion" and is the only way this ever increasing number of unscrupulous airlines, can hold onto their experienced crew now, when it is finally a pilot's market!

Airlines want to talk about "obligations" a "guarantees"? ...well let's start with the constantly changing terms & conditions; not delivering promised contract T's & C's and abiding by THEIR written words... no pay for 3 - 6 months at couple of airlines until "checked to line"... monthly deductions from your earnt pay which is to be given back to you in your final contract year, WITHOUT interest; unrealistic & huge cash/bank guarantees up front as "bonds"... the list goes on and I'm sure many of you here could very easily add to the list!

Until the accountants and Indian middle management that's weaseled their way into many positions of influence, piss-off back to their underground offices where they belong, instead of attempting to "manage", this industry has no hope!:ugh:

Treat your core personnel properly & with respect (pilots, Cc, engineers) and they will stay... because THEY are the ones who keep the expensive assets moving, day & night, rail hail or shine while everyone else is tucked away in bed "counting sheep". Keeping the airframes moving is what create the money flow... so if not treated accordingly, you had better employ parking-meter-maids because your aircraft will be parked against the fence from having no crews!

Here's a business opportunity for someone too: compile a list/database of unscrupulous airlines like this, their stunts and their employment record! I could name 5 right now!

[BusAirDriver]

A few additional facts.

Non-rated pilots are bonded for 36 months, with 15 - 18 months deduction in salary. So another 18 - 21 months obligation to work for company.

Company is making a bond of 30.000 Euros for 36 months, of which only 15.000 Euros should be repaid trough salary deductions.

Same time company are offering non-rated pilots to self-fund their rating for 14.000 Euros + VAT. If they do this they are not bonded by airline.
This is a new recent scheme by the airline, as an alternative to them funding the training themselves and bonding pilots for 36 months.

During training pilot's are paid "pocket money" For most the 15 months on reduced salary is barely survivable.

The recent e-mail by management was sparked by an higher then usual number of resignations within the company, of people either leaving aviation completely or finding other jobs.

[stiglet]

Yes unacceptable but caused in part by the unacceptable actions of some pilots in the past breaking their side of the bargin and leaving: without the agreed notice period, not paying their bond off or causing disruption. How did you expect the companies to respond? Childish but this is the only way they can punish. On the whole the pilots work force started this. If you leave on a good note complying with your agreed obligiations this will not happen. I agree the tone of the email (if true) is awful but it may be slighly changed in translation by the reporter.

[BusAirDriver]

The e-mail is Copy and Paste, only removed company name to protect the innocent ;)

There is nothing lost in translation. You see exactly what was written.

[A320baby]

Personally I cannot believe that you put a company email on a public forum!

Everyone knew what they was in for before they signed up, but still took the job.


If I sign a contract, it has my signature on it so then I will respect it, do your bond/notice period and then leave. If it doesn't seem to be legal or legit go and seek legal advice.

[C_Star]

"The beatings will continue until morale improves" :E

[Narrow Runway]

Interesting.

I think I know which company this is.

It all smacks of desperation. They can't increase salaries because the bottom line would suffer ahead of the planned IPO, and the poor salary isn't enough to keep people there in an improving market.

It is a shame that this company may be reverting to bullying tactics, when it has always been known for poor pay, albeit with a human touch to it's employees.

[gardenshed]

A320baby you might sign and uphold your side of the bargain. I see your age is 26 Ive been in the business 26+ years and the days when companies kept their word are disappearing fast.
Come try the Middle East.:mad:

[A320baby]

Gardenshed I am not complaining nor condoning, just merely stating that company emails shouldn't be published on a public forum.

[BusAirDriver]

A letter from Management earlier this year. (As comment for NR about company bottom line)

Company X achieved the highest EBITDAR margin and became the third most
profitable airline in Europe including all carriers, LCC's and legacy ones, in our last financial year ended on 31 March.

"DEFINITION OF 'EBITDA MARGIN'
A measurement of a company's operating profitability. It is equal to earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortization (EBITDA) divided by total revenue. Because EBITDA excludes depreciation and amortization, EBITDA margin can provide an investor with a cleaner view of a company's core profitability."

As reward a bonus was provided this year ;)

Let me thank you for your relentless commitment to the Company with a
special gift, two return tickets available for you on the website.
Use these tickets to visit one of our great destinations you’ve always wanted to travel to and treat yourself and your loved one with an amazing trip.

You change people’s lives every day – now it's your turn to enjoy the opportunities that flying with Company X brings.
You all truly deserve it.


Hmmm it is mind blowing, how out of touch with reality management can be!

It's like I should go to a restaurant and spend 1000 Euros on dinner, and leave 50 cents in tip! Personally I find this insulting.

A320 if you sign a contract that tells you when you get 1000 hours you should jump off a bridge, it does not make the contract legal! I highly doubt that these contracts are either legal or fiscal correct. But that is a discussion for another day!

[ShyTorque]

I've been flying for my living for almost four decades now. I've made a point of never asking for any sort of certification or reference from a previous employer and in one case declined the "kind offer", from the top man himself as a telling rebuttal. It was probably offered because he was fully aware that I could have taken him to the high court eighteen months before but chose to continue my employment. He would have lost his case because he was in breach of a well publicised legal precedent over the same issue. The very nice official letter of accolade I received on leaving the military is stashed away in a file somewhere unused.

I've never been unemployed.

Having said that, I've never acted in breach of any contract I've signed. Two previous employers did, see above regarding the high court precedent.

[captjns]

Intimidation by employers is a no no:= in most countries. Present a copy of the letter to your attorney.

If the pilot group had a set of twigs and berries between the entire group, they should all call in sick as they don't feel safe to operate.

See how fast the shareholder like paying lease payments on grounded billboards.

[BusAirDriver]

These companies try to create their own laws!
They play on the ignorance of the people that work for them, as can be seen in people like A320Babe!

[Count of Monte Bisto]

A320baby - I would beg to disagree. In the same way that we are given dire warnings here on PPRuNe that we are not contributing in a vacuum, no employer can be immune from facing the consequences of sending threatening or abusive e-mails to its employees. It is a key protection of employees to post unsavoury communications from their company should the need arise. This is not commercial-in-confidence stuff - it is a straightforward and direct threat from their management.

Now regarding whether it is reasonable or not, that is very hard to say. I have no idea what company is involved here, but in principle it would seem reasonable for a company to expect someone to serve out their notice without either leaving early or becoming so belligerent as to make themselves unemployable. Equally, some sort of slave labour is unacceptable too. The key thing here is to get to the bottom of what is going on in terms of employee or employer activity that has lead to this impasse. I would also add that another factor here is that my understanding is that it is not legal to retain employment records, security details etc from past employes with a view to preventing them work in the future. Therefore, I think there are legal considerations here. Whatever the truth of the situation, I would certainly not want to work for employers like this.

[despegue]

Wizzair I presume ?

[BusAirDriver]

Do not believe it is important to identify the company.
It's more the general view, the ones involved will know, as they have all read this e-mail I would assume.

It is the contents of the e-mail, and it is fragile possible legal disputable contents that is of interest.

At the least you would hope that the companies legal department had been consulted in advance, but judging by the e-mails contents it seems highly doubtful.

As most of us know, the STASI department in this said airline must already be working in overdrive! If they spent similar amount of energy on improving working conditions and TC's, there might be some improvements instead of an exodus of flight crew with experience.

[fudpucker]

Actually, once everybody calms down (and grows up a bit) exactly what is threatening about this alleged email? You signed a contract and in that contract it would have spelled out details of any bond involved and notice period required. You give the notice period required and if you owe bond money then you come to an arrangement to pay it back.
Some years previously I left an airline owing bond money. I was moving 'onwards and upwards' and the company I was going to would probably not have taken me if I offered to 'jump ship' I gave the 3 months notice, informed them that I would pay the bond and we agreed when/how it was to be paid. I continued to do my best for them up until my last flight and was rewarded with a glowing reference.
If you're either not planning on leaving or are leaving but plan on fulfilling your contractual obligations, what's the problem? Like another poster, I have been in aviation for nearly 40 years. Seen it all, done most of it and nothing much has changed.
One final thought. Not too sure about posting what is surely a confidential email on a public forum.

[A320baby]

Driver, I'm ignorant because I don't share your view, what a complete load of tosh!!

You joined the company, got a type rating, got experience and now your leaving i presume, you knew all the T & c's before you singed on the dotted line! Now tell me who is ignorant!

Just because I am not part of your little gang that constantly disrupts and hates the company! It's getting embarrassing now

[Heathrow Harry]

"if you had a firm belief"

wow!

I can see that standing up in a court of law

You sign the contract - no-one forced you to do it- they have an obligation to pay and you have an obligation to work

If you try to weasel out later then they can take action

[no sponsor]

'To knowingly give false information in connection with an ID pass application is an offence under the Aviation Security Act 1982 as amended by the Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990"

Wizzair ought to be a little more careful.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

The truth is that there are very people on this forum who know the first thing about what stands up in a court of law and what does not - that includes me. Again, I am a little wary of commenting on this type of thing as there is a significant amount of pertinent fact missing. My own personal experience is that whenever I have left an employer I have worked hard and reliably for them until the moment I left and never had one ounce of trouble from any of them. To walk out the door with bonds owing and with bad grace is extremely unwise. As I said earlier, I am not sure it is legal to withhold references of fact (i.e. this guy worked here from date X to date Y etc) with a view to preventing future employment. Also, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander - if the company in question start to do this, then they will find themselves on the receiving end of such practices in the fullness of time. My own view is that spoiling practices like this, whatever the provocation from idiot pilots, are not in anyone's interests and should be avoided.

[JPJP]

Shocking and unacceptable ?


Yes it is. The letters author is bordering on illiteracy. That is indeed shocking and unacceptable. I can only imagine how they operate an airline, in an industry that uses the English language to operate. The bullying tone and threats leave little doubt as to the source of their retention issues.

[highflyer40]

for those people saying the contract is illegal... quite convenient to say that now after you signed it, got your rating, got your hours, it is illegal. grow up work your proper notice and pay your outstanding bond if any ( and £16000 sounds quite reasonable to me ). fine withholding pertinent info is disturbing but a downright ****ty reference is at least in order, because if I was hiring I sure as h### wouldn't want to hire you.

[AMS]

Be professional and don't burn your bridges - it's a small world.

They are simply saying what they are thinking which in many organisation they would not tell you but then refuse to offer you any support.

Companies generally do not give personal references because of potential legal action but they can refuse to make any comment - which says more ;)

Now many pick up the phone and speak to each other to verify....

Whatever the airline offers - be it peanuts or very good salaries - if you choose to accept the terms - then do your time and be professional.

[JPJP]

highflyer40 for those people saying the contract is illegal... quite convenient to say that now after you signed it, got your rating, got your hours, it is illegal. grow up work your proper notice and pay your outstanding bond if any ( and £16000 sounds quite reasonable to me ). fine withholding pertinent info is disturbing but a downright ****ty reference is at least in order, because if I was hiring I sure as h### wouldn't want to hire you.


This absolutely amazes me - pilots actually defending a company that requires a pilot to pay for his own training. You are one step away from paying the company to allow you to work. Make no mistake; the above post makes HR managers squeal with glee.

The greatest defenders of this scam are those that have already payed for their job, and support pulling other pilots into the slime with them.

Read that email again and answer this question - Do you owe anything to a management that threatens to destroy your career, refuses to provide documentation that's required by law, and writes letters that could be attributed to a spiteful illiterate child ?

[JPJP]

AMS - Be professional and don't burn your bridges - it's a small world.

They are simply saying what they are thinking which in many organisation they would not tell you but then refuse to offer you any support.

Companies generally do not give personal references because of potential legal action but they can refuse to make any comment - which says more

Now many pick up the phone and speak to each other to verify....

Whatever the airline offers - be it peanuts or very good salaries - if you choose to accept the terms - then do your time and be professional.


You appear to be quite the fan of these schemes, and a hungry customer. Would you care to elaborate on your experience as an airline pilot ? It may put your advice into perspective for future 'candidates', who pay companies training costs.

[Right Engine]

For the first time in my 20 year career, there appears to be a genuine pilot shortage. All the clues are there.

This email is just from some snarky senior manager seeing a supply/demand curve from a different perspective. He/she has just made the trickle of leavers a flood. Nothing beats the sound of a screaming baby from HR.

[RexBanner]

Burnable Gomi has hit the nail squarely on the head.

[highflyer40]

some people just don't get it.. if you work your agreed notice as per the contract you signed when you joined then no problems. everyone is happy. some people on here are complaining because they can't simply walk away whenever they feel like it with no consequences.

[fudpucker]

A lot of barrack room lawyers here. If I ever had any doubts about the legality of a contract I was going to sign I would either consult a legal expert or not sign it. Simple.
As far as the cost of training is concerned, apart from the fact that the above principle applies, there are hidden costs to training which may not be readily apparent to those who give the impression of being new to the aviation industry but I keep coming back to the fact that nobody is forced to sign a contract. If you are moving on, work your contracted notice unless you negotiate an earlier leaving date and pay back any monies that you agreed you would pay back.
Any threat to a person's career comes not so much from this particular company but rather from their own individual actions. Companies who inhabit the lower divisions of the airline game may well be slightly dubious but if you break a contract, you break a contract and any future employer will take this into account. Companies do talk to each other, it's a surprisingly small world and a bad personal reputation will stay with you for a long time. Please believe me, any potential future employer will not be sympathetic to an applicant who has not fulfilled the terms of their employment contract. Not from any particular moral standpoint but because you might do the same to them.

[despegue]

One thing of note here,

An employee ( and yes, contractors are considered employees according to EU legislation) is NEVER responsible for an illegal contract, even if he/she signs it. It is the EMPLOYER who is responsible to ensure the offered contract is legal.
This is EU law ( and my dear UK friends, that legislation supercedes any medieval employment laws in your country, so accept it or get out of the EU).

[BusAirDriver]

I think one question that is of importance here is the following. Try to keep company names out of this, because it is not useful or helpful for the debate. The ones who work there will know, the rest can guess, but this is not important.

Person X, has worked with the company for more than the 15 months required, and deducted 1000 Euros from his pay every month in addition few more months training period where the pay was pocket money only!

The additional "bond" is work requirement, to stay another 21 months and work if not they will penalize you with another 15.000 Euros to pay if you leave early. At to the fact, a completely one sided contract which states if you leave before the 3 months notice period you must compensate the company with 10.000 Euros.

One sided and unbalanced, as it does not say they must compensate you if they end your contract with less then 3 months notice period.

[stiglet]

despegue - I am not a lawyer but I would agree that if a contract is illegal in the first place you cannot be held to comply it whether in the EU or UK. What do you believe makes the contract under discussion illegal, have you seen the contract yourself? And if you have what part do you suggest differs under EU law and UK law?

PS there are many on here who wish desparately to leave the EU and all your rules so please don't throw that at us in this discussion you will just get peoples backs up. We are where we are at the moment.

I am on the side of those who believe if you sign a contract you are honourably bound to comply with it and work you notice and pay your bond or come to some amicable agreement to pay it off. You do not leave owing the company anything; if you do anticipate the consequences. Perhaps some believe that this contract is unreasonable and therefore in some way illegal, if so perhaps you could explain?

[BusAirDriver]

How many legal actions have been taken by airlines in such cases?

If the various airlines believed they had such a strong legal case, they would surely take action?

Legal action would be the correct action, let them have their day in court, instead of threatening with slander, defamation and under hand tactics that does not belong with a modern corporation.

This is a civil matter, that should be decided in court. I firmly believe the consequence of such legal action would cost these various airlines much more, as it would expose them for who they really are.

One of the first big questions would be, where would such legal action take place? As they have no clearly defined legal jurisdiction.

Only with legal action would it be clear if the contracts indeed are legal, if contracts are fair and balanced.

If the unions are serious about cleaning up in these affairs and contracts, it is time they put their money where their mouth is, and really challenge this once and for all, to get a clear legal precedence on this issue.

How can a large corporation take to using smear tactics against individuals to try to scare and terrorise people to comply with their demands, the first correct action of any serious and respectable business would be to involved proper legal proceedings against various individuals.

The word RESPECTABLE BUSINESS gets a whole new meaning within the aviation industry.

[PT6Driver]

In the good old days, whenever that was, airlines required new joins to be bonded for a sum of money. No money was paid up front but if the pilot left before the end of the bond period then they were liable for the outstanding amount.
Then someone left a company within the bond period and refused to pay the outstanding balance. The company concerned found that bonds were virtually unenforceable.
Companies then went to a pay upfront but get refunded at the end ofthe bond period to pay upfront and pay for the rating training etc no refund.
In general the process is to ensure that the company gets its monies worth and covers all the costs associated with hiring and training a new start.

Having signed a contract both parties are obliged to honour it. The company to pay for your labour and the pilot to supply that labour. Usually a breach of contract by either party allows the other to persue for damages, lost labour outstanding training bonds etc.
If you sign a contract as a pilot the usual notice period is 3 months, if you leave without giving that notice period you are in breach of contract. Simple as that.

So the company concerned is obviously alarmed at the large number of pilots leaving it's "utopian" company and has produced a knee jerk reaction.
Whether that knee jerk reaction is legal, ethically or morally acceptable or not, is a different matter as an employee you are in the first instance obliged to honour your part of the bargain.
If you feel that the contract you entered into is illegal then a, why the ******did you sign it? b, do something about it and get the lawyers involved.
Finally if your behaviour in the last weeks of a contract is causing disruption to the company then do not be surprised that the company takes action against you.

[cgwhitemonk11]

How pathetic! :ugh:

the airline has been named several times so i won't repeat... but if it is that crowd I find it hilarious that these complaints are coming from guys who crawled over each other to accept the WORST airline contracts in the EU, and then cry that they aren't able to just down tools and walk off without any consequences?! (for context I have several friends who fly there so I am not biased)

For all the keyboard lawyers out there they will of course have to confirm 'J worked at X from Y to Z', but they can take their time about it which may cause delays in the issuance of your airside pass in the future if you cannot contact anyone to see what is going on.

Pilots really are a self-entitled bunch

For comparison I work for a small UK company facing a similar exodus and we received a similar email a while back. Several guys walked out without notice and will obviously not be welcomed back should there new airlines ever spit them out.

So I rang my boss and said I would probably be leaving in 6 weeks and I would give him a months notice as soon as I had confirmation, he said thank you for the heads up and I am leaving on good terms. Is it that hard? :confused:

I'm about to sign a 3 year bond and i fully expect to have to pay up if I decide to bail before then

[BusAirDriver]

"bonds were virtually unenforceable." & "Usually a breach of contract by either party allows the other to persue for damages"

There is of course 2 sides to every story!

As I said earlier I am not interested in outing the company or any names, so we will leave it at that.

Just a few points, breach of contract or invalid contract due to unreasonable terms, or misrepresentation by the airlines of the work relation, makes this a minefield for the airline to enter into!

As I have mentioned earlier, what is the reason the airlines do not take legal action?
If they win they win the case, problem solved!

It does seem more like private parking companies, trying to enforce a penalty for parking on private land! Not enforceable, because it is not legal! They can only claim for factual cost, if 1 Euro per hour, they can only claim this in the court!

So it seems by some, that primitive bullying, and personal threats is the right way an employee should be treated, instead of proper legal action, where both sides are able to defend themselves properly.

So why not just let companies do as they like, and ignore the laws that govern them, and ignore the legal rights of people, as many of you believe this is the right way.

The crux of the matter, is that there is a reason it is unforceable, and that the companies will loose if they take this to court! But it seems like some prefer to ignore this little unknown fact!

[parabellum]

The crux of the matter, is that there is a reason it is unforceable, and that the companies will loose if they take this to court! But it seems like some prefer to ignore this little unknown fact!

So, please tell us about which companies have sued for a broken bond and lost in court - I can think of a couple who have sued and won.

Very few companies will issue a contract that is in direct conflict with the labour laws that govern it. There are contract lawyers all over the place so getting a contract checked is fairly easy. Very few, if any, countries have a blanket law which states that training bonds are unenforceable, what they do say is that the amount of outstanding bond must be justified by the employer. A bond is just a contract and providing the amount of money involved is reasonable I doubt many courts would find in favour of an employee who breaches the conditions of the bond.

[BusAirDriver]

parabellum - so please give references to those cases?

Proof!

"labour laws that govern it"

I am not sure if you are living in a paralleled universe, but I doubt even many of the airlines know what laws applies in these cases! It's all twisted!

[Heathrow Harry]

"As I said earlier, I am not sure it is legal to withhold references of fact (i.e. this guy worked here from date X to date Y etc) with a view to preventing future employment."

that is the case in the UK - not sure about anywhere else - to any potential employer absence of the words "honest", "hardworking" etc etc are a flashing red light anyway

"but I doubt even many of the airlines know what laws applies in these cases! It's all twisted!"

I'm willing to bet that airlines employ lawyers whereas its clear that many people, in their understandable but desperate, rush to become pilots, sign whatever is put in front of them and then start whining 2 years later

It's NOT twisted - you signed up to the deal

[Mach E Avelli]

If your local law makes it illegal to withold an employment reference, will this do?:

"This is to certify that.........worked for this company in the capacity of........ from ....... to .......
During his/her* employment he/she* always/usually/occasionally* (*delete as applicable) met the minimum regulatory flight standards. He left on short notice/gave the required notice* (*as applicable).

As the person reading this reference is probably one of our competitors, we would thoroughly recommend that you hire Mr/Ms............."

[drfaust]

The most pertinent thing I read in that e-mail, is to stick to your contract and coordinate with the company when you are going to leave. It's not so difficult. If you question the legality of the contract, don't sign it. Don't be a little girl afterwards. However, would I send the same e-mail if I was in that management position? Most certainly not. Even if I would, I would do my best not to come across as linguistically challenged.

Everyone should make their own decisions, but personally when it's my time to go I shall do so in a civilized and honorable fashion. What I think of the management, the source of the retention problems and in general their (financial/roster/holiday) treatment of people? Best answered over a cold beer, because however much someone has an axe to grind (I most certainly don't), it's not that simple to answer objectively. There are many good things here also, it's just that the three things I mentioned aren't it :}. They are the main cause of problems among the pilot community, not some e-mail written after some operational disturbances occurred. I definitely ain't losing any sleep over it.

And on a more philosophical note, if I think about it, I really don't respect any colleagues just jumping ship from one day to the next causing massive headaches for people on standby/available/off days trying to enjoy some time out of the cockpit. The only one that is disadvantaged in the end is the other pilot and the delayed passenger. The company will not die, you are not making any point, the money they will lose will be insignificant and you just end up being a **** to your colleagues. If I could, I'd like to avoid flying with people like that just as a matter of principle, whatever their quarrel with the company may be. Being professional doesn't just consist of demanding certain kinds of treatment, it also consists of exhibiting behaviors becoming of an officer and gentleman.

That being said I'd just like to add that I don't agree with many things the company does, I'm just not going to let that influence my behavior in a negative way. Keep your chin up and act accordingly.

[C_Star]

Amen, Bro! :ok:

[BusAirDriver]

Here is my suggested response to such bully tactics regardless:

Various Authorities have been informed, and if required the following response applies from official sources:

" this is bullying tactics and unfortunately frequent in the industry." &

"In regards to withholding security clearance documents etc this can be investigated if it needs to be"

Just because management writes an email like this, does not mean it should be accepted!
If various companies does not have qualified people to write contracts that can not be disputed, I have to say, that this is the fault of the company and not the crew!
If there are loop-holes that can be used, why should they not be used?
End of the day, everybody are used, either the company uses the pilots, or the pilots uses the company!

You reap what you sow!

[matzpenetration]

Is this email genuine? I'm not so sure. The standard of English is so poor and the content so badly written that it makes me think it was fabricated, (or heavily "edited") to elicit a response on this forum. If that was the case then it has achieved its aim.

There may be an element of truth in the content but it has more than a hint of sensationalism to it. Remember, there are plenty of non flyers out there who enjoy nothing more than a good wind up on this forum.:=

[Pucka]

As above..I can't believe, whoever the LCC actually is, that a manager could release, without a sub altern proof reading it, such a poorly written missive. That in itself should speak volumes as to the integrity and legal potential clout of that company..small c deliberate. Sadly, like many who have contributed to this thread, I too have spent 4 decades in this industry and quite frankly, it's descent into dumbing down the piloting profession, reducing the parameters of acceptable safety minimums and marginalising the essential components of the coal face..have caused me to recommend other professions to the kids even remotely considering flying.
...and the whole matter of bonding, itself a legal minefield..needs the pilot community to castigate it by NOT repaying the remaining bond if they leave early..the message sent to these companies will sooner or later..hit the mark.

[Heathrow Harry]

"needs the pilot community to castigate it by NOT repaying the remaining bond if they leave early."

but that would be straight illegal - if you loaned money to someone and they did a runner then the Feds would be after them; if you contract to doing something you have a legal obligation to do it if you can

You just can't tear up agreements because it no longer suits you

[BusAirDriver]

matzpenetration - The email is genuine! There is not editing, except removal of the names! The reaction of a few shows that this email is in fact genuine, and the ones working for this company know it is, because they have all seen it.

And yes, in some countries such an email would lead to some major court case and possible stop of operations, if seen to operate with such bully tactics.

Heathrow Harry - "but that would be straight illegal - if you loaned money to someone and they did a runner then the Feds would be after them;"

This is a civil matter, it is not a criminal case!

So far NOBODY has been able to provide details of a case where an airline has actually taken ANY pilots to court, with regards to such bonds! (where the airline have won such a case)

The bond alone is not the only matter.
People are offered to Self Fund their TR for approx. 14.000 Euros, with no bond attached to it.
The ones who do not self fund the TR, are offered a TR, deducted 15.000 Euros over 15 months, and then bonded for another 21 months.

One of the cases as such, is someone who has worked of and repaid 15.000 Euros over 15 months, and still threatened because of leaving before their 36 month period.

I would suggest that company has been so mismanaged that it is only a matter of time before they will start grounding flights, due to lack of crew!
A big bubble is about to burst!

[parabellum]

So far NOBODY has been able to provide details of a case where an airline has actually taken ANY pilots to court, with regards to such bonds! (where the airline have won such a case)Can't post specific details here but I can assure you that Singapore Airlines has won court cases involving bonds, however they also did lose one in the USA which they chose not to take to appeal. I also know of two people who, instead of jumping ship, went to the office and negotiated a settlement that was exceptionally fair and easy.


In the cases you quote the amount of bond, E15,000. and period of return of service, 21 months, seems fair. Bear in mind that after only fifteen months on type you are of limited employability anyway, a different story after thirty six months on type.

[blind pew]

Ahhh The good old crew notice board letters posted early on a friday afternoon before they buggared off for the weekend.
By monday morning they had been edited in red ink....10AM they went missing...lunch time they were back up....only to have a few more red ink edits.....
How I miss those larfs on a weekend shuttle back up block in Queen's building!
Happy days;)

[BusAirDriver]

Comparing Singapore Airlines, with some EU Lo-Co, that are making up their own laws as they go along is not really a fair comparison!

Furthermore, it's beyond our knowledge that companies can not even make legally enforceable contracts, because the contracts are entirely one-sided, with complete lack of balance.

I can not see what is wrong, to use their (the companies) incompetence against them, when they have been using their crews to the limit of life!

These are not nice companies who care if you have personal problems, death in your family etc. that they will try to give you any compassion!

Their philosophy is based on 1800 style leadership! Giving some good to their work force is feared, because they believe if they give a little people want more and more!

Posting reports of millions in profit, believe last report said 1 million Euro a day (need to be verified), however regardless posting reports of great profits, yet they are squeezing their crews to the limits of what is safe and paying peanuts!

So the notion is from most, we are all getting :mad: by the company, so when the tables are turned, people will :mad: the company!

It's logical, what comes around goes around!

The likely future scenario, will be loads of DEC's (at higher pay on contracts - great for moral within the company!) and young inexperienced Cadets!

It's a ticking time bomb within, mismanaged from the top level, as they only think about what is good for the company and disregarding the conditions of the people working for them!

Of course some are happy, because they have no other options! But this is also a changing trend within the company.

[BusAirDriver]

Rumours or fact, that XXX Base crew tried to create a "union", and that CP went to visit them with the normal Gestapo tactics! Split up or face the firing squad! Another wonderful day with this company! :)

[WX Man]

Just out of interest, why do people WANT to leave this company so badly?

Just want to compare it to my lot, and see how much better/worse off I am.

[BusAirDriver]

WX Man do tell! :}

8/2 roster or 15/5 roster
850 - 900 hours a year
AIMS manipulated to remove positioning flights if not good for company
Constant mix earlies and late's
No Sick pay
No fatigue management in practical terms
People do not matter
The pay is one of the worst in the business
Fear politics, comply or Big Brother is going to make you walk the gallows!
A CP who has NO interest or power to do a job as a CP really should do, which is to protect his pilots. Self-serving politician with little or no experience of this role.

A positive, the most beautiful women as CC :ok:
For some that might be enough, unless you are a local!

[parabellum]

RexBanner/BusAirDriver - SIA don't limit themselves to locally convened tribunals, breach of bond, (contract), is a legal matter, they will take you straight to court and sue you. Someone said no employer had ever done it, I disagreed.
Hope you guys with that lousy employer manage to sort it out.

[WX Man]

@Busairdriver, nope... you've trumped me!

- Mostly 7/2,
- Mix of earlies, lates and nights
- No flight duty pay and no sector pay- the only money you take home is your salary, which in turn is one of the lowest for this a/c type in western Europe.
- Statutory minimum sick pay
- Statutory minimum holiday, but no wrap-around days
- Rostered well within FTL planning limits because it's commonplace to get asked to extend your duty finish time once you have started
- Company employ minimum staff, so every time someone goes sick you can be expected to be contacted on a day off

So it's different to your lot, probably slightly better... but not much.

[seventhreedriver]

This company is not really one, but each and every base seems to have different "conditions". The money is pretty much the same for captains, but the rostering / ease of commuting / group operations / general surroundings are worlds apart. I am presently based in RIX, and I have no real complaints. Yeah, the money could be more, and the sick pay is non existent, but the 6/4/6/4 roster works OK, the schedule is solid, and I have direct flights to my hometown, which I can afford a few times a months. And the politics, now that is the thing we are completely immune from. It is just too cold and windy.

That said, I would not work in most of the southern bases for the same salary. I did for almost 3 years, and I just had enough. The operational conditions were just too unpredictable. I voted with my feet... And I came back after 3 years. Not because it is the best company or all these rose tinted BS. I look at my life, this is still one of the best places for me to be. Nice base, solid job, decent savings, and still in Europe.

About this mail: Although the language is not as sophisticated it should be, and just because of it I tend to resent it, but if I look at the contents (hard to separate from the style), I have to agree with it. As long as I receive the salary which is in my contract, no matter how bad it is, I have no moral right to break my bond.

If you resign without enough notice, only your (ex) colleagues will suffer. It is occasionally hard, but replacement pilots are still possible to find from within.

[BusAirDriver]

6/4 works? In what world?

It finisishes late, and starts early, so if you find it acceptable that you ALWAYS commute home on your OFF days, then it "works"

But that means you do not have 6/4 roster, you have 8/2 roster or maybe if lucky 7/3

Looking at the big picture!

seventhreedriver - " I have to agree with it"
That's what is the problem with the industry today, people that unfortunately believe it is ok to be treated like this, and think this is normal and acceptable!

Because of this, people in this outfit will constantly be moaning and complaining, but nothing will ever change!

You are your own worst enemy.

Another "perk", your HP days are flawed. If you take 14 days HP days, already in your 6/4 roster, you could have 8 days OFF in this period. But you do not get your OFF days, you have to to work back your OFF days from your HP days!

As an example a friend of mine recently took 4 HP days with a proper company, also Lo-Co, with those 4 HP days, they gave him 2 wrap around days on each side, and another 2 days OFF from guaranteed. So for 4 HP days, they gave him in total 10 days OFF!

In your outfit/this outfit, for the same example you would loose 8 HP days to get the same amount of time OFF.

Not much you can do, as when this outfit is made to pay taxes and liabilities that is genuine, they will most likely going bankrupt!
This company is a gigantic tax scamming company, and sooner or later the authorities and regulations will catch up with them!

Why?

Because it is in the best interest of everybody, that all companies plays the game with the same rules!

[Smokie]

Unless this is NOT the company I'm thinking about....

When I worked for them 6/4 worked well, quite often you would start and end on a Standby day but more importantly IF there was sufficient cover you could actually commute on your Standby days, plus free flights within company network from day one made things a lot easier.

Looking at a recent previous post, would indicate that this probably was my old Company ;-)

[BusAirDriver]

Probably is Smokie, but believe me now that is not going to happen on 80% of your roster periods.

You going to start EARLY, and finish very very Late!