50 years ago today

[malcolm380]

27 September 1964. First flight of TSR2. Are there any PPruners with memories to share of the project?

[SpringHeeledJack]

Not a memory of the project, but whilst minding my own business outside the cafe at the Brooklands museum a few weeks ago, a slow moving 4x4 came around the corner of a hangar towing the cockpit section of a TSR2 and passed me at a snail's pace allowing the study of the lines without moving. "If it looks good etc….."


SHJ

[joy ride]

I was 8 years old at school in Hampshire and the TSR2 was a regular topic of excited conversation. One day a TSR2 flew over the school while we were all outside on the sports field and there was a virtual riot of cheering. For us it was the best thing in the world.

[mmitch]

The Cockpit was on its way to Newark Museum for a commemoration day.
Photos here.
TSR2 Event @ Newark AM ~ 27Sep14 (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?132110-TSR2-Event-Newark-AM-27Sep14)
mmitch

[wub]

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/wub_01/scan0093.jpg

[rjtjrt]

Just thinking, what was TSR 1?

[FantomZorbin]

On a school visit to Vickers at Brooklands being shown the first RAF VC10 being built still 'on the stocks'. FZ poked his head round a hessian screen and there was the TSR2 in all its glory - this was well after the political chop. "You weren't meant to see that!" said the guide rather taken aback.
I believe it may have been taken away to Orford Ness for BDR trials etc. subsequently.

[Planemike]

TSR 3 ................... http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1118850/

[Jhieminga]

On a school visit to Vickers at Brooklands being shown the first RAF VC10 being built still 'on the stocks'. FZ poked his head round a hessian screen and there was the TSR2 in all its glory - this was well after the political chop. "You weren't meant to see that!" said the guide rather taken aback.
I believe it may have been taken away to Orford Ness for BDR trials etc. subsequently.
Interesting, seeing as the TSR2 was cancelled in April 1965 and the first RAF VC10 flew in November of that year, it looks like you may have seen some of the airframes which were in production when the project was cut. The first two airframes, XR219 and XR220 have never been back at Brooklands since, as far as I know...

[Peter-RB]

I was at school in the Giggleswick area of Yorkshire and remember one of our science masters pointing out a white jet as it flew over going to or from Ingleborough Hill, I think its under cart was down,...

Much later on I found out my wife's father worked on it( the prototype) and then was seconded to Duxford for a few periods to remake damaged panels.

Harold Wilson, the Labour PM should have been shot for treason allowing that Aircraft to be scrapped, pressure from the yanks, we gave em the Jet engine, the fully moving tail plane, and they came back to pressure the gormless Labour Prime Minister who almost fell onto his knees to scrap this A/C..SAD

Peter R-B

[staircase]

Well I will put my head above the parapet and standby for the flak.

It was very expensive at the time. However it was in the early sixties, and as a result of the ‘Sands storm’ defence review, it was one of very few military aircraft projects going. As a result, development costs for all sorts of things, from advanced hydraulics to flying kit, found its way into the TSR 2 budget. Then, as good as the systems were, they were basically analogue (20 mins to align the nav kit I have heard mentioned). Add in some inevitable re-design, on things like fixing the landing gear shimmy and so on, a change of political climate was going to see it scrapped. And lets not forget that some of the main advocates for its demise were elements of the right wing press moaning about the ‘costs’. Some of the same journalists were also attacking Concorde for the same reasons of government spending.

It was I reckon a very good product, but having spent the money mentioned above, and with a prototype flying, what was it for?

The Polaris boats were being built and the ‘deterrent’ was going off to the Royal Navy. That left an aeroplane of immense capability being used for recce work, or throwing iron bombs and rockets around the battlefield. I don’t think I would have fancied a ground attack role in something as bit as a Vulcan! A bit of over kill when the Buccaneer, Harrier and Jaguar proved capable of that role and the delivery of battle field Neucs.

There was American pressure, but that was in my opinion, just the final straw.

P.S. Sorry Peter - after we were becoming such mates over the Hercules!

[joy ride]

In my opinion Wilson was no worse than virtually any UK Prime Minister or politician since WW2. Almost without exception they have all presided over the willful loss of the majority of British engineering and manufacturing. Buffle-headed dandiprats the lot of 'em!

[FlightlessParrot]

In my opinion Wilson was no worse than virtually any UK Prime Minister or politician since WW2. Almost without exception they have all presided over the willful loss of the majority of British engineering and manufacturing. Buffle-headed dandiprats the lot of 'em!

I question the "willful". I remember Wilson talking about "the white heat of technology." I remember that Wedgwood Benn was a strong advocate for Concorde--now there's irony. Maybe they weren't so competent in doing stuff, but in that they would have been following the business methods of British management, which managed to comprehensively foul up a lot of industries (I mean, if anyone ought to be shot as a traitor, surely it's the managements that approved production of the Allegro and the Marina).

[A30yoyo]

Compare and contrast the TSR2 and the Jaguar.....I always thought there was
something of a connection in a downsized way

[reynoldsno1]

Visited Boscombe Down in c. 1966 as an air cadet, and we were allowed to scramble all over and inside a TSR2. There was some commonality between the tac system in the TSR2 and the Nimrod MR1.
I can still see the 'coat of arms' pencilled on the fuselage, with the motto "Harold Wilson's Folly"

[FantomZorbin]

Jhieminga (http://www.pprune.org/members/48625-jhieminga)
I believe the visit was about 1963/64 so it must have been well before The Chop (so much for my memory! :O ). The VC10 was just a fuselage frame as was the TSR2.

[joy ride]

Flightless Parrot: I completely agree with you that a few politicians did speak up, which is why I wrote "virtually any" P.M. or M.P. ! Tony Benn of course was a huge champion of Concorde, and even Michael "Tarzan" Heseltine made a valiant stand against Thatcher's determination to side with USA in the Westland Helicopters scandal; the Cabinet Secretary was even caught lying to improve the case for Americanising!

Interesting that France used its experience with Concorde to propel its aviation industry to global importance, while in UK it was another part of our decline.

Interesting too that our rocketry programme was cancelled the day after Prospero was launched (still orbiting!). The reason given in Parliament was "Cost" but little doubt that it was seen as a rival to USA's space programme and was not popular with them. Unusually, instead of being broken up or sent across the Atlantic, everything was passed over to France and gradually developed into Ariane, the most efficient and profitable launch system!

I highly recommend Francis Spufford's most excellent book "Backroom Boys, The Secret Return of the British Boffin". It does show that British Boffinry still survives despite the best efforts of British Government, Bankers, Management and Bureacracy to make us a nation of pen pushers and form fillers!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Prospero /Black Arrow were cancelled partly because the Americasns had offered to launch for us for a song, and partly as the halfwitted farmer who was minister of stuff at the rime was convinced that there was no future in commercial satellite launches.

As soon as Black Arrow wss scrapped, the cheap American launch offer was withdrawn, and as for commercial satellite launching...


HMG actually tried to cancel the space programme before anything was launched, but the teams and kit were already at Woomera and the people there were suffering a high degree of selective deafness that was later hushed up (source: conversations with several retired British rocket scientists. )

I can recommend a trip to the Needles Battery on the IOW, which is now restored (ish) and very visitable to see the test sites.

G

[joy ride]

I reckon the "no commercial future" was no more than a disguise for the real motive. There is a long history of things being offered and undertakings being given to us on the assumption that we will not produce the goods, then when we do, the goods are suddenly found (by us) not to be "commercial". I don't blame the Americans or any other countries, our Governments have repeatedly failed to protect our interests.

The I.O.W. Needles Battery and Fort certainly are well worth a visit, and I highly recommend the open top deck of a bus to get there...ascending and descending around hairpin bends above Alum Bay is great! I took my Dad there a few years back, just before his health declined.

I have put some photos in this album if interested:

Isle Of Wight Photos by Captain_Bubble | Photobucket (http://s581.photobucket.com/user/Captain_Bubble/library/isle%20of%20wight?sort=3&page=1)

[Sir George Cayley]

Judging by the brouhaha at Farnboro this year HMG are back in to space.

SGC

[joy ride]

Yes, it's a pleasant surprise. Astrium was very successful, but now seems to be part of Airbus Defence and Space.

[chevvron]

Never got to see TSR2 in spite of a school visit to Brooklands in about '64. It first flew just after one Farnborough Airshow and was cancelled before the next one two years later.
Never dreamt I would actually get to work at Farnborough 10 years later (74) and would be 'rubbing shoulders' with the worlds most famous test pilots. (eg John Farley actually addressed me by name!!)

[CNH]

Sorry, but Black Arrow was cancelled for two reasons:
1. its payload was minimal;
2. there were no UK satellites to be launched.

[Rosevidney1]

The TSR2 reminds me of the US Navy A5A Vigilante bomber as they were not too dissimilar in appearance and size. The A5A had a host of problems including the largest radar return of its day. Changing the role to recce gave the RA-5C a reprieve and I wonder about what the limitations of the TSR2 might have been. Was it really such a wonder machine as its fans have come to believe? The Buccaneer took over the role more than adequately.

[parabellum]

I was in the Army and doing my BFT at Middle Wallop, living in Nether Wallop, the TSR2 would overfly every so often, it was, I think, doing circuits at Boscombe Down.

[Terry McCassey]

Believe TSR1 was the Canberra.

[NutherA2]

I believe the original TSR2 was the Swordfish and that the first TSR1 was its predecessor, the (otherwise unnamed?) Fairey PV (Private Venture). If I've got it wrong have pity on my advanced years and be gentle in your rebukes.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

TSR-2 XR220 currently resides at RAF Cosgrove Air Museum, in the company of
SR53, Meteor F8, the one with the 'prone' cockpit / nose extension, Short SB5,
Looks like the Lightning, Fairey Delta, and the flawed Bristol 188, with an endurance of some 25 minutes....

Cheers :ok:

[teeteringhead]

That's Cosford Griffo ......:ok:

[Molemot]

For anyone interested in the TSR2, let me recommend this...

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-17B-TSR2-with-Hindsight.pdf

It's lengthy, but I think it's definitive. One of my relatives spent much time on the camera systems...

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Many Thanks Mr T,
T'was late and I was 'tired'....
You are correct .
Cheers:ok:

[javelinfaw9]

Requirement issued early 30s by Admiralty for Torpedo/Spotter/Recconaisance Aircraft. Met by Fairy with their Swordfish. TSR 2 was big improvement but field performance suffered.:O