Air France pilots strike

[4Greens]

Any news on this strike? I thought it would be on this forum.

[BOAC]

It's here (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/21/uk-air-france-klm-strike-idUKKBN0HG0HU20140921) - courtesy of Google

[SOPS]

BBC are just reporting that Air France has abandoned plans to enlarge Transavia.

If true, looks like the union won the battle, but it still might loose the war.

[Jaffo320]

BBC News - Air France suspends plan to expand Transavia (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29309899)

[VH-UFO]

Strike or surrender?

[Greenlights]

AF will sink... if there is no transavia, then the sky is for EZ and FR.:D

[CaptainProp]

"This arrangement must not call into question our ambition to develop Transavia, which is one of the key sources of growth for the Air France-KLM group."

Quote on BBC from the AF Chief Exec.

[RAT 5]

I know Transavia France is apart from HV.NL, but Air France + KLM is associated strongly with Transavia.FR & Transavia.NL: they own them both. It is already the case that HV.NL has taken over a lot of routes from KLM, and I assume the bossy VNV has agreed. They are no wilting flowers when it comes to wanting a say in business matters of KLM. Thus if AF is planning to follow the same model in France as has been successful in Netherlands it would seem rather like King Canute of the union to expect it not to happen an even hurt themselves trying to prevent it. The world order has changed and they should accept it with head out of the sand.

[Skyjob]

The world order has changed and they should accept it with head out if the sand.

Couldn't agree more. French need to get their act together in EU to buck their nation's trend, not just in aviation.

I think Merkel recently summed it up pretty good:

German and French demographics differ sharply says Merkel.
Says she cited demographics in chat with Valls yesterday.
Ageing Germany is the reason for budget consolidation.
German government spending leeway is narrow.
One works what it takes to make the country what it is, and one only works 35 hours. Not hard to work out why one is usually much stronger economically than the other.

[UAV689]

Am so torn about this, yes af are behind the times, but how often do we hear us moan about t+c going down, p2f, contracts, ryanair salary etc etc?

Maybe we should all stick together and applaud them!

[RAT 5]

Not quite apples & apples. Survival is also high on priorities. Spinning off a few routes to an in-house subsidiary is hardly cutting the legs off the main-line. It could be argued it's the thin end of a wedge and the start of a slippery slope, but as it is in-house it could be held in check without too much fighting. To deny it happening and pretend it is not necessary is real head in the sand stuff. A measured and reasoned mutually agreed adjustment of business to maintain an edge in the changing world is what life is about. We do not know how much has been said behind closed doors. I presume this was the last resort; hopefully. If the management issued a take it or leave ultimatum then perhaps the pilots were justified in feeling attacked, but hopefully things were conducted in an adult and consultative manner. Considering the strength of feeling and the action taken one wonders.

[LEXAN]

What is not acceptable is developing Transavia Europe with Portuguese contract rather than Transavia France with AF contract. And then, Transavia Europe will be positioned on the short medium haul AF network. This means furloughs and the end of the AF retirement plan.

[captplaystation]

Much as I think many of them in AF are proud / jumped up little Prima Donnas , I applaud them for attempting to uphold some dignity/conditions in this profession that has been :mad: for too long now.

They can probably afford to lose a mths salary better than AF can lose €15mil a day, and , what next ? they close AF & re-employ them all in Transavia F ? so, basically you have :mad: tomorrow instead of :mad: in 2 years time, better to fight now, maybe win, and if not, well, it was gonna be cr@p sometime soon anyway.

I say, Bloody Well Done ! ! ! Courage/:mad: les Gars & thank God someone is still living enough "in the past" to realise that we should still maintain some vestige of what we had/worked for. :ok: :D


UAV689 " Am so torn about this, yes af are behind the times, but how often do we hear us moan about t+c going down, p2f, contracts, ryanair salary etc etc?

Maybe we should all stick together and applaud them!" I am 100% with you there, to the others who are posting the "accountants/freemasons" line. . .do you want I buy you some Vaseline ? or will you provide your own ? The destruction of this profession has two causes, corporate greed & stupid sheep-like pilots who believed those "selling" corporate greed. . Congrats with "getting with the program" (American spelling totally intentional here )

[UAV689]

The more I think about it the more I actually support industrial action by aircrew, and people in aviation. I was always traditionally against strikers, but when you see just how badly terms have been eroded in all sectors of aviation, from pilots, to ground staff which are now agency workers, I think more people should be standing up and counted. The pilots union in uk is utterly toothless and let a complete destruction of terms happen under its watch, shame on them.

The only way these low cost carriers can work is by cheap labour, aircraft cost a fixed price, fuel is a fixed price, enroute fees are fixed, you can scrap the meals to save a few quid, the majority comes down to rostering, pay, pensions, perks etc, be it in house or external, the low cost air france will destroy their terms, not just for pilots, but also for the inevitable contractors status that will become of all the ground staff also.. so fair play to those guys, you have my vote.

[chams76]

the last info would be that :Air France abandons the project Transavia Europe...

[iansolo]

Hello.
This info has just been denied by AF management. We go on.

Thank you for your support, quite difficult these times

[Tarzanboy]

Only 1 word comes to my mind right now: RESPECT.

The CEOs need to present black numbers in their 3-4 years top position. If they show red numbers to the shareholders they are history it is that simple.
We should support the AF pilots and fight for our profession!

I could save the airline 6 figure amounts a year with a few changes, but they prefer to save £5 on stupid cost savings and errode my conditions to a shameful level.
Penny Wise - Pound Foolish

Bye bye CEO, next please.

[Mark in CA]

There is some confusion today. Reports say Air France has back down on Transavia, but what this appears to mean is they've abandoned the idea of creating a separate, non-French subsidiary that would have required pilots to relocate. Apparently, Air France still intends to go forward with Transavia, but as a part of Air France without relocating pilots.

I hope this is all over soon. I'm booked on AF 83/1994 for SaturdaySunday, and would like very much to get home.

[heavy.airbourne]

Presently, I am working for a legacy carrier, and our management has admitted that pilots' cost amount to a total of only 3% of the total operating costs. Thus, halfing pilot income will amount to a price reduction of mere $15 to a $1000 c/cl ticket and $3,75 to a $250 ticket in m/cl.

IMHO: There is no business case, this is just a political, envy driven urge. Management people (and maybe politicians) just cannot stomach subordinates earning more than they do. Naturally, people with minor imagination and/or intelligence, do not see the comprising requirements and the extensive strain in a pilot's job.

If we just could stand together...

[wiggy]

As they say.."chapeau" :D

[iansolo]

HeavyAirbourne,

We have quite the same numbers here in AF. What we are told is those 2% are eventually the profit .... no comment.

As for the strike, negociations went on late last night with little result:
- Transavia Europe project is burried
- We are still negociating better contract for Transavia France

Thank you for your support, it helps because it's hard

If only KLM guys could back us up. (In fact they are, but not in the french way :-) )

[wind check]

Transavia Europe project is burried

Isn't that a great news for Vueling, easyJet and Ryanair who are expanding every year?


http://www.thedrum.com/uploads/opinion/169335/michaeloleary.jpg

[iansolo]

Good point.

They were to invest 1 billion euros in that project.
My opinion is it would have been a huge lost of money.

We just can't compete on low-cost. This market -IMHO- is already saturated, and we can't open lines to the hubs of or competitors if we want to preserve our LongHaul CDG flights.

[wind check]

So what about Iberia (and BA) with Iberia Express and Vueling? What about Lufthansa with Germanwings?

IMO, and that is sad, if we look at the medium haul market, there are not anymore 2 parallel markets which once used to be the legacy model and the LCC model. Today, that's over, the only strong model is the LCC while the legacy model is dying very quickly.

And don't tell me that LCC model is only for poor passengers going to a camping somewhere for their holidays. The LCC, nowdays. offer the SAME service as LH, BA, KLM in economy class, and they do offer a correct service for business passengers. Look at Vueling, for example, they offer a premium service with fast track airport security, priority boarding, mileage, a comfy seat with nobody on the middle seat, free baggages, they offer newspapers and food, they offer flights flexibility and free rebooking. And so do easyJet. Ryanair is now going the exact same way and they now want to attract those business passengers.
What do AF, AZ, BA, LH do with their business passengers? Priority boarding, free baggage, free news papers, nobody seated on the middle seat, ugly adjusting curtains to ridiculously split the cabin into 2 parts, booking flexibility, the same !!, but they will sell a Rome to Paris at 900 euros when Vueling or easyJet will sell it for 170 euros (all extra services included).

This industry will only get worse and worse and you guys are on the same boat.

[Luc47]

I am an AF pilot. Anyone working for KLM ... I have a few questions?

[Long Haul]

As a legacy pilot, I can tell you that no one here has their heads in the sand. We realize that the world changes quickly, and that if our company is going to be around for another 95 years, we need to change with it. But that doesn't relieve the management of sticking to their part of the bargain, just like I do when I say that I will show up for work on time. Air France agreed to fly a maximum of fourteen aircraft under the Transavia France brand without union pilots. Then they, totally on their own accord and without any attempt at negotiation, decided that the real number should be one hundred aircraft. It is no wonder that the Air France pilots felt forced to take this drastic action.

[Mark in CA]

heavy.airborne: You might be interested in this data collected by MIT as part of their Airline Data Project. Looks quite detailed. Here's a link to the section on employee compensation, which includes not only pilots, but cabin attendants, ground crew and others.

Airline Data Project (http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/Employees&Compensation.html)

[JammedStab]

Are you sure that they are on strike. I saw a 744 freighter arrive in ORD today.

[Peter47]

42% of flights or thereabouts operating. (Being France there is a range of unions only some on strike.)

[Mick Stability]

I have nothing but respect for our AF colleagues.

At least they have had the balls to stand up to this industry wide attempt to screw pilots once and for all.

I only wish we had some of the same resolve.

Bon courage mes amis

[Boeingflyer]

Maybe It's time all European airline pilots say this is enough... Coodinate a European strike for all Airlines in Europe.. One Day a week until politissions in Europe changes some rulles and laws so all pilots in Europe don't have to bend over Day after day in bad working conditions and crazy contracts. Contracts should be forbidden in this Industry..

But i guess all pilots are happy and Will just continue with there work and i live in a dreamworld..:ugh:

[RAT 5]

If there is a genuine concern about traditional T's & C's being eroded, and there surely is, by the use of contract crews who are allowing themselves to be abused for various reasons, then what coordinated action/response is ECA making?
Here the AF guys are trying to stop the rot. Is it too little too late? What have the other heavy weights been doing for the past few years? Have they just woken up to the fact that the world is changing, but they felt insulated? Now they see the attacking hordes at their own fortress gates they choose to take up cudgel. Good on them, but where were the Spanish, Germans, Italians and others, under the ECA umbrella, a few years ago when the slippery slope was getting ever steeper? Did they feel the flood gates would not be breached? Years ago the governments allowed the legacy carriers to fly the flag around the world. There was a definite difference in the service offered by each airline. Now the share holders rule the roost and airlines are all much of a muchness. There is a perception that salaries are too high and work is too soft. I don't agree, but there is a perception. Has that truly been counter argued? I don't think so. The public demand cheap food; farmers are screwed. The public demand cheap travel and the crews are screwed. Both groups in public ignorance of the truth. The same is true of so many other industries. the public demand ever cheaper XYZ and the share holders demand ever better returns. The contradiction and resulting conflict will bring about a disturbed future.

[FRying]

I say : KUDOS TO YOU, BOYS AND GIRLS ! :D :ok:

My respect (and hope) for the pilots population in Europe is rising back up a bit thanks to the French. If only British (and other nationalities for that matter) pilots had only a portion of the b@lls the french have, our industry wouldn't be the sad swamp it is today. This is a bold move against the dissection operated by ever more greedy managements dying for a quick buck.

Those pilots bashing the French only deserve what they will live and be 10 years down the road.

[Iver]

Looks like Ryanair, Easy, Wizz and Vueling continue to put the squeeze on another big Euro airline as well:


?Air Berlin cancels 787 order - 9/26/2014 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/air-berlin-cancels-787-order-404197/)

[4Greens]

Check out the situation with Qantas on the Australian site. The CEO is trying to make money by transferring assets and effort to a low cost sugsidiary. So called Main Line is suffering and there are problems for pilots and other staff in this situation.

[wiggy]

Maybe It's time all European airline pilots say this is enough... Coodinate a European strike for all Airlines in Europe..

Nice idea but as I'm sure you are aware given legislation governing industrial action across much of Europe that is much, much, much easier said than done....

Have a look at what iansolo said at the end of permalink #21: "If only KLM guys could back us up."

[bex88]

Well done for standing up for yourselves.

All I know is in my airline we very soon are going to be told how we need to change to compete. I am open minded to change and modernisation if the essence is let's work you more efficiently and productively. Not just harder but in the same old inefficient ways. I see endless waste and to compete with LCC they need to trim the endless number of suits the mill about seemingly doing very little

[Heathrow Harry]

BBC News - Air France pilots end long strike (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29401056)

Air France pilots have called off a strike that has lasted for two weeks and cost the airline hundreds of millions of euros.
Pilots' union SNPL and the airline have yet to reach an agreement over a dispute about the carrier's plans to expand its budget subsidiary Transavia.
However, a union spokesman said it was ending the strike so negotiations could "continue in a calmer climate".
The loss-making airline wants to cut costs to compete with budget carriers.
Although the strike is now over, the two parties failed to resolve their differences during weekend talks.
Air France said (http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/press/news/article/item/solutions-to-put-an-end-to-the-conflict-and-pace-up-transavias-development-1/) it "deeply regrets that, despite lengthy negotiations since the beginning of the conflict (including 15 hours yesterday)... the balanced and reasonable protocol to end the conflict proposed by management has not been signed by the unions".
On Friday night, the airline rejected an offer by SNPL to end the strike if an independent mediator was appointed.
The government, which owns a 16% stake in the airline and has pressed hard for an end to the strike, also rejected the offer.
As a result, Air France announced late on Saturday that it would be operating less than half of its scheduled flights on Sunday.
It has now said flights will "gradually return to normal" from Tuesday - those flights cancelled on Sunday and Monday would remain so.
Unresolved differences The airline and union will continue talks over employment contracts.
In a short statement, the SNPL said (http://www.snpl.com/#) its "determination remains intact".

[Iver]

Someone forwarded this interesting editorial from Aviation Week (written by Pierre Sparaco) to me - it is timely and I think it applies to many of the other legacy Euro airlines, but AF in particular:


Once again, Air France (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=25297)-KLM (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=14286)’s management finds itself blocked from implementing a change in strategy. And once again, it is the cockpit crews who are balking. Crews and their unions have not yet come to terms with the increasingly dominant role of low-cost carriers in the European airline industry, so they routinely reject the urgent need to restructure France’s air transport sector.

However, the Air France-KLM group is nearly equally culpable for the disconnect between management and personnel and has contributed its own share of missteps. Long before the Franco-Dutch consolidation move became a reality, Air France turned a blind eye to the growing threat from the low-cost sector. Fifteen years ago, a top airline executive told me the low-cost business model would not succeed and claimed that startups such as Ryanair (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=22231) would never acquire a significant market share.

Today, European low-cost airlines carry a combined 200 million passengers per year with a fleet of nearly 1,000 aircraft. Moreover, Ryanair is now the biggest intra-European carrier and is planning to operate 520 Boeing 737s (http://awin.aviationweek.com/ProgramProfileDetails.aspx?pgId=634&pgName=Boeing+737NG) in the next 10 years, up from 320, CEO Michael O’Leary says.

Air France now acknowledges the need to launch a robust counterattack; it plans to expand its low-cost subsidiary, Transavia, which has two branches—one in France, the other in the Netherlands. Air France-KLM Chairman/CEO Alexandre de Juniac says Transavia will operate up to 100 aircraft by 2018. But the long-overdue growth plan could be delayed or even canceled if pilots refuse to ratify it. One of the many issues that has pilots upset is management’s plan to implement a two-scale salary policy.

Transavia pilots, whose ranks include former Air France pilots, are expected to be paid at a slightly lower rate than they now receive, to help the airline achieve competitive direct operating costs, a prerequisite to a successful counterattack in the European route system. SNPL, France’s dominant cockpit crew union, firmly rejects such a plan and claims all Air France-KLM group pilots should benefit from unified salary scales. In the last few weeks, the dispute has become even more heated and resulted in a walkout plan that could jeopardize the company’s efforts to restore profitability.

Given the decades-old acrimony between the union and management, many analysts are skeptical of an early resolution. SNPL-member pilots have a long tradition of vindictive reactions that extend well beyond operational matters. For example, the SNPL long rejected the implementation of two-person cockpit crews, which forced Air France to cancel an order for Boeing (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=12083) 737s. Today, union representatives are claiming they should have been canvassed, giving them a chance to reject or at least debate a plan to establish a new salary policy.

But there is a key difference this time around. Air France is no longer a state-controlled company and no arbitration can be expected from the government of Prime Minister Manuel Valls. The outgoing transport minister, Frederic Cuvillier, showed little interest in the French airlines’ difficulties and his successor, Alain Vidalies, seems ready to follow his predecessor’s route. In other words, Air France is now paying for being so slow to react to low-cost competition and for not convincing its pilots (as well as the court of public opinion) that a former flag carrier—now operating in a fully deregulated environment—could be so seriously endangered by new competition forces. Recently, a political leader warned: “Even airlines die.”

Adopting the broad view, it is key to understand why and how pilots succeeded in extending their perimeter of influence. This conduct began to materialize in the 1960s and has never been studied as it should, by psychologists, not aviation experts. French pilots are extremely proud of their prestigious past; they take pride in referring to famous pioneers and the Aeropostale’s glory days. However, this adulation of the past is interfering with the “course correction” needed to adapt to modern times. This balking is detrimental to the airline and its personnel alike.

Today, U.K.-headquartered EasyJet (http://awin.aviationweek.com/OrganizationProfiles.aspx?orgId=46777) is the second-largest “French” domestic operator and Ryanair is Europe’s biggest carrier in terms of passengers flown (more than 81 million this year). Air France, however, continues its drastic decline. French airline pilots could be accused of writing Air France’s epitaph.

[BigFrank]

Not it would seem if the lack of information and comment on this thread is to be taken as gospel.

(Apologies for double verb in question which I haven't managed to edit.)

[111KAB]

Air France dispute reflects a divisive & unsure industry | Aspire Aviation (http://www.aspireaviation.com/2014/10/03/air-france-dispute-reflects-a-divisive-and-unsure-industry/)

[Pander216]

Iansolo:

HeavyAirbourne,

We have quite the same numbers here in AF. What we are told is those 2% are eventually the profit .... no comment.

As for the strike, negociations went on late last night with little result:
- Transavia Europe project is burried
- We are still negociating better contract for Transavia France

Thank you for your support, it helps because it's hard

If only KLM guys could back us up. (In fact they are, but not in the french way :-) )

Hai Iansolo,

I am a KLM pilot and a lot of things are unclear here in the Netherlands.

Could you please specify the next two points?

1) "We are still negociating better contract for Transavia France"

- Could you specify what terms and conditions you want to see improved at Transavia France? I what way does that reflect the agreements made in the Pilots Protocol in 2007?

2) "If only KLM guys could back us up. (In fact they are, but not in the french way :-"

- How would you like us to back you up? Strike as well? In KLM 98% percent of the pilots are represented by the VNV. An call out for a strike would mean entire KLM would be grounded for two weaks i.s.o only 40-60% of AF pilots represented by SPNL resulting in an immediate bankrupt of AF-KL. As much I support our labour agreements, the Dutch pilots (in general) do not want to destroy the company. That is why we always hesitate to strike because we are thoroughly aware of the consequences on the short- and long term.

Furthermore, in Holland we have a culture called "polderen". Meaning that we always try to reach agreements by meeting in the middle. Both parties will give in to reach a result that both parties can be satisfied about.

Those two cultural aspects are the reason we were not able to strike on such a short notice.

[Iver]

Very regrettable situation. This is an interesting recent editorial:


Editorial: Pilots Will Share Blame If Air France Folds | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/editorial-pilots-will-share-blame-if-air-france-folds)

[BigFrank]

It seems that a 2 week strike in Air France at a minimum stated cost today of 500m € [400m GBP] evinces zero interest here.

Likewise the single muted and unresponded to post within the Ryanair thread and echoed in the Jet2 thread I think concerning the Ryanair/Jet2 incident at Malaga last week (over against the widely supported thread here & now regarding an incident on the ground at Dublin Airport.)

I'm perplexed.

[Una Due Tfc]

RE the AGP incident, I think we are all so used to such things in Spain, that they no longer shock us.

Perhaps the disdain within the industry towards AF pilots in recent years caused by a series of baffling pilot decisions in a large number of incidents has caused us all, subconsciously, to fail to give them the support and respect they are due for their current endeavours

[BigFrank]

Nonetheless a more than somewhat sobering analysis by you of local conditions for those of us "obliged" to fly in and out of Spain with some degree of regularity.

¡ Though not, thank heavens, on AF with its kamikazee (trade-unionally-speaking) pilots !

[BEagle]

There are only 3 European airlines with which I will not fly.

Only 1 of the 3 gives me cause for concerns about safety - and that is emphatically NOT Ryanair.

[Una Due Tfc]

Just to clarify, I'm an Atco in a European country that isn't Spain. What I mean is, the first few of these incidents I read about in Spain shocked me (The Easyjet and Malev one in El Prat in particular), but there seems to be one every few months, and I suspect we only hear about those involving non-Spanish carriers

[TDK mk2]

Could it be that actual airline pilots don't post that often anymore, and when they do their posts are often removed...

[Basil]

Was the Ryanair/Jet2 incident at Malaga remarkable? I haven't read it again but seem to remember it was just a go-around due aircraft still on runway.

[G0ULI]

With conditions in the airline business as they are, it is perhaps wiser for pilots in employment not to post their opinions on PPRuNe. Anonymity can't be guaranteed on the internet.

Clearly Air France needs a good kick up the backside to get them into the 21st century and Ryanair could do without being the lowest common denominator in terms of running an airline.

It goes without saying, so why risk your job stating the blooming obvious.

[Wave off]

Merkel is certainly right.
But what to say now that Germany is entering recession, drawing the rest of Europe in the hole?
What a nice German model!
That habit of "Deutschland über Alle" has been persisting too long.:=