BA T5 LHR Ramp or jetty question

[Ignore the HUD]

How are short haul arrivals parking slots for T5 allocated?. On flights from MUC sometimes we get parked out on the ramp and catch a bus to the other times go straight to the terminal. Last Friday we taxied past 4 or 5 empty slots but still ended up having to park away from the terminal and get the bus.

[seafire6b]

And late last year, after arrival on BA from Miami very early in the morning, we sat and waited for 25mins, engines running, waiting for a parking place so we could disembark and Mrs Seafire and I could get our connection LHR-GLA.

There were repeated PA apologies and updates from the flight deck crew, who doubtless similarly found it quite frustrating after a long flight. For a comparatively new terminal, that doesn't forebode too well for the future. Hoping things will go better for our return trip from Miami later this year....

[mixture]

How are short haul arrivals parking slots for T5 allocated?. On flights from MUC sometimes we get parked out on the ramp and catch a bus to the other times go straight to the terminal.

Its an apron, not a ramp... unless you're American. :E

(although in your context, its actually "remote stands" vs "contact stands")

I would suggest its predominantly a factor of how soon the aircraft is scheduled to be used again.

If you're arriving on something that's due for a swift turnaround then they'll find a spot for you at the terminal. But if you're coming in on a late flight and the aircraft isn't going to be used until the next day, then they'll stick you on a remote stand.

There will also be other factors such as whether you've got any disabled passengers to deal with....

Maybe this document might give you some insight, not LHR, but from DUB, its their "Stand allocation rules" document....here (https://www.dublinairport.com/Libraries/Airport_Charges/July_25_Stand_Allocation_Rules_final.sflb.ashx)

[ExXB]

Mixture, such procedures would be used at Terminals which are used by more than one airline. While single airline Terminals, such as T5, would likely use similar rules (why reinvent the wheel) I'm sure they have certain processes that override the standards.

Such as scanning of all PNRs on in/outbound flights to ensure that I personally are given the worst possible combination of gates/stands for my connection.

Just because you are paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. (BA and I don't go well together)

[Basil]

I can assure all readers that, particularly following an on-time landing, delays in allocation of airbridge or remote parking irritate crew almost as much as passengers.

[WHBM]

I can assure all readers that, particularly following an on-time landing, delays in allocation of airbridge or remote parking irritate crew almost as much as passengers.
This is unique to BA at Heathrow. Honestly, it is. Nowhere else can I even recall having to hang round waiting for a gate allocation, or for the stand guidance to be turned on, or for buses if required to turn up. Even at BA outstations with handling agents it is invariably (for me at least) straight in. Likewise other carriers at LHR.

It would be good however if there were not announcements from the flight deck as if it were the first time this ever happened.

Between 30 and 5 minutes early (bit difficult to be > 30 mins early) : "Ladies and gents, we're having to wait because we're here just a bit early, and so they're not quite ready for us".

Between 5 and 30 minutes late : "Ladies and gents, we're having to wait because we're here just a bit late, and so they're not quite ready for us".

Over 30 mins late : "Ladies and gents, obviously because we're here rather late they can't be ready for us".

[mixture]

Nowhere else can I even recall having to hang round waiting for a gate allocation, or for the stand guidance to be turned on, or for buses if required to turn up.

You don't fly much do you ? :E

I've had all three occur far elsewhere more frequently than at LHR T5.

[Ignore the HUD]

Well we also had to wait for the buses and as the pilot described "Parking Guidance" to turn up on the remote standing. Just plain annoying to taxy past empty terminal slots and do this. This is not the first time its happened at T5 . In comparison flying with Lufthansa to LHR once in the last 3 years have we had a wait for a parking slot at the terminal ( I dont believe they have remote parking at LHR).

[DaveReidUK]

In comparison flying with Lufthansa to LHR once in the last 3 years have we had a wait for a parking slot at the terminal (I dont believe they have remote parking at LHR).

That's to be expected, in common with most foreign shorthaul arrivals at LHR where the aircraft isn't going to spend any more time than is necessary on the ground.

[Wirbelsturm]

This is unique to BA at Heathrow

You've never been to JFK then! :rolleyes:

In comparison flying with Lufthansa to LHR once in the last 3 years have we had a wait for a parking slot at the terminal (I dont believe they have remote parking at LHR).

Yes they do but Lufthansa have a far smaller number of flights a day than BA and therefore can swallow gate delays more easily thus rotate through the same gate.

Ironically we often get a remote stand at Frankfurt as they prioritise Long Haul hulls onto the jetties.

It's all down to an operation called HAC where stands are generally allocated to the arrival time +/- 15 minutes. Long Haul will almost always take stand priority unless the jet is parked on T5A where most of the stands (excepting A19) are only big enough to fit a 767 max.

[Ignore the HUD]

Quote:

Yes they do but Lufthansa have a far smaller number of flights a day than BA and therefore can swallow gate delays more easily thus rotate through the same gate.

Point taken but on T5 that day there were at least 4 or slots on the Terminal side where short haul were parked. So I'm presuming AC coming in behind us had priority for those parking slots?
Either way this is the third time that this has happened to me on the MUC-LHR flight so guess LH maybe the way forward :)

[Wirbelsturm]

It might just be that there are more flights scheduled in at that particular time then stands available on the main terminal.

I really don't profess to understand how, why, when and where which flight gets what but there are often flights that will almost always be on a remote stand. Possibly if the aircraft rotation is from international to domestic.

In that case the inbound aircraft (yours) coming from an international flight cannot park on the domestic stands thus you need to be remote and the domestic passengers 'bussed' to your aircraft after you have disembarked. These regulations are not of BA's making they are from the Department for Transport.

It is often not a simple and clear cut as many passengers assume. When I was on Short Haul we, as flight crew, were banned from getting off the jet during a turnaround and going upstairs to departures for a cup of coffee without clearing security ...... twice. :ugh:

p.s. Watch out for the LH rotation through MUC in the winter. The aircraft is often delayed at Frankfurt with de-icing. Just a heads up.

[WHBM]

You've never been to JFK then!

I'm surprised you've had issues at the BA terminal at JFK, because not only have I not done so, but the number of aircraft handled is way down on the numbers envisaged when it was built long ago, when BA did flights to provincial UK and down to the Caribbean.

stands are generally allocated to the arrival time +/- 15 minutes
Possibly part of the issue. You need to be much more proactive and flexible than this - and if I read it correctly we are saying that maybe stands are even intended to be allocated only 15 minutes after arrival.

Most ops offices I am familiar with are looking at arrangements and how things are running hours ahead.

[wiggy]

Most ops offices I am familiar with are looking at arrangements and how things are running hours ahead.

Can't answer for T5 Shorthaul but in my experience as a longhauler there's plenty of planning and arranging ahead - FWIW the stand plan is available hours in advance. Unfortunately it's often the last minute changes (e.g. late/delayed outbound flights blocking your assigned gate) that seem to cause problems.......

[Wirbelsturm]

I'm surprised you've had issues at the BA terminal at JFK, because not only have I not done so, but the number of aircraft handled is way down on the numbers envisaged when it was built long ago, when BA did flights to provincial UK and down to the Caribbean.

Sadly the terminal is not the issue it is often getting both to the terminal and from the terminal. Unfortunately, at the moment, there are, shall we say, issues at JFK.

I was merely pointing out that, rather sadly in my opinion, T5 is not the only place we experience delays with stands.

As far as the 'pro-activity' for stand allocations goes I'm afraid that is over my pay grade and neither would I ever want to have a hand in what must be a thankless task. You can please some of the people some of the time etc....

The stand allocations, as Wiggy has stated, are done a long time in advance. However when LHR is running at 99.5% capacity I'm sure you can understand that a small disruption will have major ripples that ruins any plan.

As was once said a plan is only good until first contact with the enemy, which, in the case of LHR, is the first arrival!!! :ok:

[WHBM]

I wonder to what extent the maintenance etc arrangements of BA are in some way allowed to override the use of stands for arrivals and departures - and the maintenance base being about a 3 mile tractor drag from the terminal does not help.

Way back in the old Terminal 1 days I recall more than once BMI complaining about BA having aircraft on stand for extended periods, to the extent of doing engineering work while there, with others waiting for a stand.

I have to say I have never minded remote stands (I know our US cousins regard coaching as absolute anathema). With effective organisation it can be as quick, possibly even quicker, that coming through the remote satellites and then the convoluted arrangements of the Transit - whose usefulness was reduced, if not ruined, by different security requirements being imposed on it after it was designed.

[PAXboy]

Last December, I was on Lufty to MUC and was on a remotes stand for the out and return. Considering they had the whole of their new terminal to play with, I presumed it was a maintenance or construction issue.

The key point for pax and bussing is to be LAST on to the bus. get jammed in by the door and even if the doors open on the other side, you'll be off faster. On some regular journeys in the past, I knew which side the doors would open and could be first off with a run!

[Ignore the HUD]

Last December, I was on Lufty to MUC and was on a remotes stand for the out and return. Considering they had the whole of their new terminal to play with, I presumed it was a maintenance or construction issue.

The key point for pax and bussing is to be LAST on to the bus. get jammed in by the door and even if the doors open on the other side, you'll be off faster. On some regular journeys in the past, I knew which side the doors would open and could be first off with a run!

Yes last December there was construction work going on as I believe is still now to expand the LH terminal. Not sure why they used a bus at LHR never happened to me with them there. I have been bussed by LH at MUC for the Bremen and Toulouse flights not very nice in winter but that's life I guess.

[Ignore the HUD]

I can assure all readers that, particularly following an on-time landing, delays in allocation of airbridge or remote parking irritate crew almost as much as passengers.

No doubt, any feedback given to those responsible?

[mixture]

I wonder to what extent the maintenance etc arrangements of BA are in some way allowed to override the use of stands for arrivals and departures - and the maintenance base being about a 3 mile tractor drag from the terminal does not help.

Way back in the old Terminal 1 days I recall more than once BMI complaining about BA having aircraft on stand for extended periods, to the extent of doing engineering work while there, with others waiting for a stand.


Found a slightly old doc here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%201057%20CAA%20decision%20HAL%20request%20re%20Pier%20Se rvice%20(p).pdf) with one or two interesting stats in it :

The "pier service" target BA have set for T5 is 95%.
and
AOC explained the reasons why BA chose not to put some of the last wave aircraft on stand, that if maintenance of long haul aircraft did not take place on stand it would require substantial amounts of towing with adverse consequences to airfield congestion and the maintenance/engineering constraints had been applied for many years


So yes WHBM, it does look like "special" arrangements is what means BA can have a pier service target of 95% when I believe its 99% for the rest of LHR.

[Peter47]

Waiting for a gate was even worse in the days when BA operated into T4. A half hour wait was not uncommon. It may have been better to have more remote parking.

JFK T7 (the BA terminal) I think only has five wide bodied gates (3-6 & 9) and that's not really enough capacity. If you arrive just before 19:00 local you are always waiting for someone to push from a stand. (Surely not why the cheapest fare is normally on a departure from LHR around 16:00.)

If you have nothing better to do listen to the JFK Company Channels in the archives of liveatc.net on a bad day (yes it is legal). As an aside the US has a rule that fines (heavily) airlines if passengers cannot alight for an aircraft after three hours on the ground (four for international flights). No one likes being held hostage but it does cause some grey hairs amongst ground staff.

ATC Audio Archives | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php)
Listening to: KJFK Company Channels | New York, New York, United States | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=kjfk_co&icao=kjfk)

[Ignore the HUD]

Found a slightly old doc here with one or two interesting stats in it :
Thanks for posting that. A pity BA management or Scheduling chose not to attend as I would have found their inputs interesting. My experiences have only been on SH and the later arrival flights so guess the same philosophy is applied by BA there.
Given there were multiple empty slots on the terminal as we taxied to remote I can only deduce this was part the planning for some reason.

[Ignore the HUD]

Well as you may gather my pet beef is arriving at T5 taxying past empty terminal slots to park at a remote parking that isn't prepared for our arrival ,
Yesterday I was so chuffed the MUC flight was granted terminal parking..wait for it ....we were told that we would still have to get on a bus to the terminal!
Apparently we were on the domestic arrivals side :ugh:
I guess I should have been happy the buses were waiting.....
As they say you live and learn.

[DaveReidUK]

If you were on the BA947 or BA953 from MUC, they both operated UK domestics as their next sector, to Aberdeen and Newcastle respectively.

Saves towing ... :O

[PAXboy]

Yeah, I had that at LGW last year. Nowadays the computer will decide the work flow to be the most economical use of equipment.

As we all know, the airline pass these savings on to us ... :}

[Hipennine]

A few years ago on BA Terminal 1: Arrive on 737 from GVA, park next to airbridge, but steps attached and onto bus. Process through terminal to domestics for connection to NCL. Down the airport steps onto bus for transfer to steps leading into gate to board via airbridge onto exact same aircraft. at least it provided a bit of exercise between aircraft seating !

[PAXboy]

That's a great coincidence, Hipennine! You were probably the only one with that connection and one of very few who would have realised it was the same machine.

[jxf63]

One thing that has happened to me twice over the last few weeks on AMS-LGW is Easyjet depositing us at the South Terminal (rather than the scheduled North) for "operational reasons".

Not a problem personally as I catch the train home, but horribly confusing for non English-speaking PAX...

[Ignore the HUD]

After all my niggles with BA I flew back with Lufthansa last week and guess what.. first time in 20 years I got a bus at MUC for the flight..then upon landing we were parked on the domestic side and then bussed to International arrivals! Don't know why, there were spare air bridges on T2 and am presuming they weren't all unserviceable.

[PAXboy]

Last time I did MUC was 15 months ago and with Lufthansa. I was irritated to be bussed on both arrival and departure. The explanation given was about building works of the new terminal.

[Ignore the HUD]

Last time I did MUC was 15 months ago and with Lufthansa. I was irritated to be bussed on both arrival and departure. The explanation given was about building works of the new terminal

I have never been given an explanation from either BA or LH. Guess I will politely ask the next time.. ;)

[PAXboy]

I'm not saying I actualy believed them ... :hmm:

[Davef68]

One thing that has happened to me twice over the last few weeks on AMS-LGW is Easyjet depositing us at the South Terminal (rather than the scheduled North) for "operational reasons".

Not a problem personally as I catch the train home, but horribly confusing for non English-speaking PAX...


Had that a couple of times on internal EDI-LGW flights, but on both we were then bused back to the North terminal! (To then get the shuttle back to South to catch the train)