JMC Threaten to Depart MAN

[dwlpl]

JMC have threatened to pull some/all of its services through MAN if delays are not improved on.

It says that delays have been getting steadily worse of late and it will not hesitate to move to increase its on-time performance.

[lambchopboy]

and go where exactly?

What a load of hot wind!!

[Ringwayman]

I would imagine we're looking at them sending some flights to Liverpool and Leeds-Bradford, perhaps Blackpool as well.

[lambchopboy]

better than manchester then!

:o

[ohitsmonday]

I think the MD threw the toys out of the cot in a meeting with MAPLC/RHS. Very reassuring.

[160to4DME]

dwlpl

Some hard quotes to back up your claim would be helpful.

Seems surprising when EGCC is fairing fairly well this year in the delay stakes, and especially when jmc is the best on time charter performer out of there. I think their average is down to about 12 minutes, but let's wait for the official figures before debating it. :)

160

[dwlpl]

160to4DME / Thomas,

Try the BBC Manchester based news gathering centre outputs at:

* - Ceefax p.168 on BBC North-West TV (was still listed there at 2230 local).

* - If you have digital TV try BBC News24 text and route through to the news section and then to north-west news.

Also go to, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/northwest-spotters/message/7558

Post back when you have found the pages. Ringwayman (et al) will verify and will have seen the pages in question.

For what its worth, I think its a very, very empty threat.

[spekesoftly]

Teletext page 168 mentions JMC blaming the delays on inadequate numbers of staff for baggage handling.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Its just sabre rattling no doubt and I agree with MeB (for once !).
The lack of staff to handle baggage, meet the aircraft and the security system at some of the stands in Terminal 1 is appalling. However, that said, I won't be going to Liverpool or Leeds !

The greedy bosses at Ringway have bitten off far more than they can chew this summer and I feel empathy towards the poor b******s having to take the flak for their managements avarice.

[682ft AMSL]

It's about time JMC (and First Choice for that matter) realised there's life in the North of England beyond the boundaries of MAN. JMC have chartered a whole 2 aircraft from Leeds this year -a weekly service to PMI and one to TFS. I suspcect its a similar story at LPL, HUY, MME etc.

MyTravel by comparison have based units at LBA, MME,LPL and operate a reasonable number of flights through HUY. Why the difference?

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

682ft AMSL

Your user name gives away a bit too easily where you reside and why you might be biassed. Get a longer runway and maybe you might just be able accomodate jmc's A330 in low visibility conditions.

As for outstations, jmc have removed aircraft from Luton, Bristol and Cardiff to save money and your point regarding Mytravel is nonsense. You only have to read the newspaper to realise they have cocked things up this summer by having an excess of 1 million holidays to sell.

Moving base is not a decision to take lightly and the problems at Manchester with baggage handling are problems that could easily have been dealt with by a competant management at Ringway Handling.

Leeds or Manchester ? I know where most passengers would rather fly from and to give you a clue, its not whippet land !

[lambchopboy]

Me thinks you also sound rather biased dude!
;)

[niknak]

So their options are to:
1 - Go to Blackpool, and reduce the passenger loads because of the operational restrictions, (short runway, approach aids etc), that said, BPL deserve the extra trade more than anyone.
2 - Go to Leeds and divert during the Winter due to weather, and also lose passengers due to the Manchester catchment area customers not wanting to go that far.
3 - Go to HUY - a non starter.

I think they' ll stay at MAN.

[682ft AMSL]

Thanks for your unbiased views LIMA, but just to pick you up on a few points

1) Were not talking about A330s and long-haul - were talking about A320s, B757s and bucket & spade flights to the Med & Greece. Runway length is not particularly an issue

2) Unless you can demonstrate that the excess capacity MyTravel have on their hands is solely attributable to Leeds, Liverpool and Teesside, then the point about them is not 'nonsense'. Over the last few years they have proven that (surprise surprise) big cities like Leeds and Liverpool actually stimulate enough demand to warrant a reasonable level of services over the summer

3) The management at LBA spend half their time commissioning surveys to ask people which airport they prefer to fly from them and what influences their decision over which airport they choose. Again in a shock result, it turns out that people from around the Leeds Bradford catchment area would prefer to fly from Leeds Bradford!

Finally, last year MAN handled something like 10 million charter passengers - over half of its throughput. The combined total of all the other airports noth of East Midlands and south of Newcastle was around 1.2million. Now, either you believe that Mancunians are better paid and have very generous annual leave entitlements or you accept that a fair chunk of this traffic is coming from right on the doorstep of other airports around the north. I am well aware and fully understand the arguments around scale economies and efficiencies which explain why airlines may prefer to centralise ops at MAN, but don't kid yourself that its the first choice departure point for a healthy proportion of the 10 million charter pax each year. It ain't

682

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

682ft AMSL

I think you're missing the points mate :-

(1) Leeds Bradford has 1 Runway - Manchester 2
(2) Leeds Bradford does not have Cat 3b Capability for all aircraft on both runways - Manchester does.
(3) Leeds Bradford does not have a runway long enough to accomodate wide-bodied aircraft - Manchester does. And before you harp on B757s and A320s, if an airline is to move its base, long haul ops are normally centred at its base.
(4) As for economies of scale - I'm glad you have mentioned it because it does matter (ONLY SLIGHTLY!).
(5) Manchester is the 2nd largest city in the U.K. - Leeds isn't.

Do I need to go on?

If Leeds is such a great Airport, then why haven't the authorities spent large amounts of money attracting larger airlines to it (no offence meant to Emerald employees)?

September 11th, unfortunately has meant airlines have had to cut capacity (except MyTravel it seems) and rightly or wrongly regional airports will suffer as a concequence because economies of scale matter and people are prepared to travel to a larger airport for their holiday if they are hell bent on having one.

I don't wish to teach you to suck eggs but read the rest of the posts on this thread and you might realise it is not a Man vs Leeds or Liverpool issue but more an airline vs MAPLC/Ringway Handling dispute.

[dwlpl]

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK,

FYI item 5 in your list is not correct and hardly inspires to the accuarcy of the rest of the posting/postings.

The list that follows is just the totals from the 1996 population census and only includes English metropolitan cities outside London.

Birmingham : 1021000
Leeds : 727000
Sheffield : 530000
Bradford : 483000
Liverpool : 468000
Manchester : 431000

Then there are other cities in the UK ie. Bristol, Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Cardiff to come into the equation.

(source http://www.statistics.gov.uk)

[Jay Dubbya]

Manchester is the 2nd largest city in the UK? Forgive me, but I thought Birmingham is the second largest city in the UK?

On the subject of MAN taking holiday PAX away from other regional airports, this is not just exclusive to our Northern airports. BHX loses a fair few PAX to MAN, though this perhaps is mainly concerning long haul charter flights. While all the major tour operators fly to destinations such as Orlando from BHX, MAN has a much bigger number of these sort of services - I wanted to fly to Cancun from BHX, but had to opt for MAN instead. While BHX did offer a weekly flight with AMM to Cancun, MAN had a better choice of departure times...Plus the aircraft operated from MAN don't have to worry as much about take off weight restrictions...

[AOG-YYZ]

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK:

According to information gleaned from Salford University web site, the following table of UK cities, by population, listed in order are as follows;

London, Birmingham, Glasgow, Liverpool, Manchester.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Boys, I stand corrected by the census experts amongst you. When I said Manchester, I was talking about the immediate catchment areas rather than the city population itself and meant England as opposed to the U.K.

If Birmingham has a bigger immediate catchment area than Manchester then I apologise for my inaccuracy.

That asides, the purpose of my point was that the reasons jmc are threatening to leave Manchester are to do with MAPLC/RHS rather than the relative attributes of other northern airports.

I am still convinced that it will not happen and stand by my assertion that Leeds is not a feesible option for Air2000 or jmc to move base to for the reasons I gave previously.

[lambchopboy]

just an onlooker here buddy. but i don't think moving base from MAN to any airport was what the chappy from Leeds wanted....just a release of the stranglehold that MAN seems to have on flights in the north! Especially charter flights (i believe charter is more than scheduled these days at MAN)
There are other airports with just as good facilities and long enough runways and good road and rail infrastructures!
EMA for the runway and BHX for facilities/excellent infrastructure and long enough runway for most flights.
NCL has good facilities and a long enough runway
LBA...don't now much about it.
What i'm trying to say is, if you want to go to Mytilini, Kalamata, Mykonos, Samos, Chania, La Palma, Dubrovnik, Pula, Ljubljana,
Djerba,Catania, Olbia...need i go on, why should we have to travel to MANCHESTER!
In germany there are at least 5 provincial airports where you can fly to all the holiday destinations on offer...!
Here's to the future without the letters MAN in it.


;)

[rentaghost]

Again, just another outside observer, but Finningley will be 'online' before the end of the year, and Airports with no business tend to bend over backwards to offer cheap deals!

[dwlpl]

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK,

It does not matter trying to 'backtrack' and try to say "immediate catchment areas" or "England as opposed to the U.K." the simple facts are that, the city of Manchester has at least the 7th biggest population in ENGLAND, (I think that they may even drop down at least another place because Bristol is bigger).

But going back to the point in question. JMC hold all the cards now with what has happened recently in the aviation world. But I still think that they, JMC, have made an idle threat to do what they said they may do.

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

dwlpl

That is exactly what i have been saying isn't it ?

jmc will not relocate from Manchester and it is purely "sabre rattling" (as per my first post) to get MAPLC/RHS to get their act together.

[dwlpl]

LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK,

I note your reference to your first post dated 29th May at 1323 and that it repeats more or less what I posted 28th May at 2127!

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

dwlpl

You were addressing me personally in your last but one post whilst I was addressing the forum as a whole with my first post. But I'm glad you're magnanimous enough to admit that we agree on something.

It ain't gonna happen - END OF STORY.

[682ft AMSL]

Thank you Lambchop, that's exactly the point that LIMA seems to be missing. No one is talking about LBA, LPL or whereever being places where an airline like JMC or Air2000 would fully relocate to -the idea is nonsense. The point being made was that when JMC aluded that they may move *some* of their flights to LBA, LPL, I argued that this would be no bad thing given that it is beyond any reasonable doubt that *some* of their passengers come from West Yorks, Merseyside et al.

The two tables below might illustrate the point and also serve to clear up some confusion over the relative population sizes of different UK regions.

Forecast of 2002 English population by county (000's)

7238.6 Greater London
2621.7 West Midlands
2556.7 Gtr Manchester
2123.0 West Yorkshire
1378.7 Merseyside
1337.6 Kent
1308.4 Essex
1300.3 South Yorkshire
1272.8 Hampshire
1141.9 Lancashire

Volume of 2001 short-haul charter traffic by English airport (000's)

9491.7 Gatwick
8610.6 Manchester
2731.3 Birmingham
1581.9 East Mids
1471.9 Newcaste
1334.1 Luton
1196.3 Bristol
1074.4 Stansted
619.8 Leeds Bradford
384.8 Teesside

[lambchopboy]

My my 682...those figures speak volumes don't they!
What a vast difference in charter traffic....how arrogant to believe that all the people that don't live in the London or Manchester want to fly from there!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :o

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

lambchopboy/682ft amsl

This thread is becoming rather tedious and boring now and the subject has degenerated into an un-related spat about the merits of different airports .

I have nothing against airports other than Manchester and indeed I spent a year flying out of BHX and appreciate fully that passengers would prefer generally to fly out of the nearest airport to them. 682ft amsl - I have also flown many times on W patterns through LBA and done several football charters through the airport.

The point I have been trying to make (evidently unsuccessfully) is that due to downsizing both Air200 and jmc have removed flights from outstations because it is cheaper to do that than remove them from base. A decision to move base totally to say LPL/EMA/LBA etc would require the airline to move its long haul too and like it or not, those airports are not capable of handling it due to runway length, AWOPS requirements etc.

If money is spent to upgrade those airports then great, I for one would'nt give a hoot if airlines decided to base themselves instead there and would welcome it. The market dictates and for reasons of commercial necessity, that is why airlines such as jmc and Air2000 are not based there and have removed services from there. In the end BUCKS SPEAK !

[lambchopboy]

...if the thread bores....don't reply!!
We all know bucks count!!! A few of the other airports mentioned have a very good charter base already...they just need expanding on, not consolidating!

:o :rolleyes:

[jocko0102]

All airports will continue to expand and especially for the smaller airports they will offer increasing destinations as the years go on.However no matter how much you like or dislike it the fact remains that the areas of the country with the biggest poulation bases will have the best choice from the airports in the region.The N.W of England with Manchester at its heart is the most poulated outside London that is one of the reasons why Manchester is such a big airport.Airports like Manchester (as that was the one talked about initially)have invested huge sums of money to take them into the big league,whereas Bimingham (which has the very populated WestMidlands as part of its catchment area)has been left in its wake,one problem being a smaller runway and lake of space to expand properly.
However airlines like JMC will operate most of their services from a few airports with a splattering of additional rotes from airports like Leeds,Liverpool,Blackpool etc.But at the end off the day economics dictate and that is why all airlines have a few major bases that the majority of services operate from.The smaller airports up North quite frankly could not cope with a huge increase in flights wich is why JMC will stay at EGCC.If Leeds or Blackpool or liverpool want more flights they cant just rely on airlines at Manchester getting pissed off with the occasional problems and legging it to their airports.

[lambchopboy]

on a slightly different note...i note jocko that you used the code EGCC for MAN....do you know what the other codes for the main airports are, like lgw,lhr ncl,ema,ltn etc!!
cheers mate
:)

[dada]

BIGIT UP FOR BLACKPOOL STP GIVE EM A CHANCE STP THEY WANT TO HELP STP

[jocko0102]

Heathrow-EGLL
Gatwick-EGKK
Stansted-EGSS
East Mids-EGNX
Newcastle-EGNT

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Thanks Jocko,

I was beginning to think I was talking to some brick walls !

[Bucking Bronco]

Mr Lima I must concur with your totally accurate and unbiased views. I operate out of LHR and occassionally visit MAN and in all my time operating the shuttle up to GLA or EDI have never seen any other airport let alone feature of note in the North of England. Are you sure there is an airport at leeds and if so can I get JET A1 there?

Cheers

[captain ochre]

Looking at some of the figures listed for populations and comparing them to CAA stats, it seems that Merseyside generates more than 20% of the north-west charter market to places like Palma, Alicante, Ibiza, Tenerife, but the charter operators only take up to 3% of the northwest's market from Liverpool.

Seems like there is a sufficient gap there to suggest some traffic could be moved to the local airport and that maybe it isn't an idle threat. It would presumably be a drip feed rather than a one-off jump though.

[Buggs Bunny]

To get back to the subject, have heard that Air Scandic have approched LPL due MAN problems. Any news from any one.

Maybe the threats will shake up MAPLC to reduce landing fees which will allow airlines to pay a reasonable rate for ground handling, inline with LGW would be very nice?

[Caslance]

In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, this looks like more wishful thinking from the MAN-haters!:rolleyes:

JMC's "dispute" with MAPLC has nothing whatever to do with landing fees.

A simple question - if MAN is such a terrible place with so little to commend it, why does a steady stream of airlines keep starting new services, and why are some airlines that already serve the place increasing their frequency?

And yes, I know that MALEV have gone - they've dropped quite a few other European services as well. I am also aware that Olympic have slashed their service, but that particular airline is in big trouble anyway.

On the other hand, Malaysian have restarted, Air Jamaica have started up, BWIA and SAA are in the post, CSA have upped their frequency, and there is even an indication that QANTAS are sniffing at restoring services, albeit via another European city.

Has Buggsy got any evidence for what he says, or is it just rumour?

[LIMA OR ALPHA JUNK]

Yup, you're right and Astreus too. There appears to be some anti-Man sentiment here for some reason I can't understand. I would be surprised if Air Scandic move to LPL as they feed off sub-charters from MAN based charter airlines.

[ohitsmonday]

Surely with charter airlines the tour ops dictate the routes anyway, so ranting airline md means nothing?:D

[jetset445]

the problem seems to be getting worse with each weekend at man. the main problem is aircraft unloading with pax waiting over an hour and a half for bag to hit the belts

[dbromle]

Which is exactly what happened to us this morning on returning from Malaga. People staring angrily at the belts with nothing coming through, apart from the inevitable earlier mis-directed baggage that could have been going around for days. This was after the captain announcing-after everyone had started standing up-that the airbridge wasn't working and we then had a 20 minute wait while they found some steps. And our outbound flight 2 weeks ago was delayed as a baggage handling breakdown led to loss of slot

Manchester is a smug shambles