JetBlue return, evac

[IBMJunkman]

BlueTales » JetBlue » Statement on Flight 1416 Long Beach ? Austin (http://blog.jetblue.com/index.php/2014/09/18/statement-on-flight-1416-long-beach-austin/)

JetBlue emergency landing in Long Beach: Cabin filled with smoke - LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jetblue-flight-emergency-landinglong-beach-20140918-story.html)

[glendalegoon]

some really odd stuff here.


does jet blue have passenger oxygen masks that prevent smoke inhalation ( I doubt it)?

did the pilots tell the flight attendants to drop the masks?

did the cabin altitude ever exceed 8000'? 10,000', 12500', 14000'?

everyone seems hell bent for leather to evacuate down the slides. if the plane isn't on fire (and it sure looks like it doesn't have fire damage) why jump out and risk injury?

I looked up the smoke checklist for the A320 and NO WHERE does it say the passengers are to go on oxygen.

I hope we can all have a nice talk about this, and if anyone has REAL DATA about procedures that would be nice to include.

And to those who don't know (not you pilots) passenger oxygen is for supplemental breathing and you would suck smoke into the little mask if you used it.

PILOT oxygen masks of course are a very different type and would be used in the case of smoke.

[Airbubba]

Listening to the tower tape, JBU 1416 called on the ground, announced 'we will be evacuating', then another voice, presumably the captain, attempted to 'cancel the evac' when the tower said there was no smoke out of the right engine. The tower then said 'looks like people sliding out of the back already'.

Another day at the office, good job. :ok:

[glendalegoon]

airbubba

do you have a link to the ATC tape? wondering, can't find it and the video seems to be gone now too.

was the front talking to the back? hmmm
I hope someone takes the time to figure this one out

[IBMJunkman]

Picture:

http://tribktla.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/jet-blue.jpg

[Airbubba]

airbubba

do you have a link to the ATC tape? wondering, can't find it and the video seems to be gone now too.


Check out the end of the 1600Z recording for today at KLGB here:

ATC Audio Archives | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php)

Here is the track and track log from flightaware.com :

JetBlue (B6) #1416 ? 18-Sep-2014 ? KLGB - KLGB ? FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/JBU1416/history/20140918/1605Z/KLGB/KLGB)

[glendalegoon]

thanks airbubba

you are right, of course

wondering who was in charge that day?

[skidbuggy]

Ironically today Jetblue announced that their embattled CEO will leaving to spend more time with 'family'. Some ex-BA guy, Robin Hayes, is his replacement.

[goeasy]

Glen.... No one was in charge! How embarrassing for JB.

This is more than likely a result of the mass media sensationalism I.e. Most passengers think that any minor malfunction on an aircraft means scream for your life before almost certain terrifying death. Which couldn't be more wrong.

I don't envy any cabin crew trying to stop a stampede of media-frightened passengers from trying to access doors before any evacuation has been decided.

[hoofie]

Look at the number of people in that picture holding their carry-on bags etc - how many got them out of the lockers first ?

[Rodney Rotorslap]

One woman even has a huge black Samsonite - no wait, that could be a taxiway marker.

[GreyhoundMUC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbEi4hQMw78

Interesting insight of the landing with FA's shouting the "Brace, Brace' and the call out from CPT 'FA's at your stations' but then I hear something like 'easy vector, easy vector' whatever that means, followed by shouts from FA's 'release setbelts , come this way'!

Shouldn't there be a clear call out like 'EMERGENCY, EVACUATE, EVACUATE'?

Rather strange...

[Ian W]

This event will probably end up in CRM training courses showing how NOT to manage the aftermath of an emergency landing

[glendalegoon]

Ian W. Yes


EV may be code for evacuation at some airlines. Some may have evacuated bodily parts prior to evacuating the plane.

[framer]

I just googled " easy victor" and it came back with this from another forum
Easy Victor is, I believe, from the olden days. (That's what it was when I started in the 80s.) Used to be thought that a "code word" would alert the FA crew, but not alarm passengers.

Now I think there has been a major shift in thinking. Direct, unambiguous communication to FAs and passengers is best. Thus "Evacuate!" or "Cabin Evacuation" is the preferred signal.

[INeedTheFull90]

Anyone now what the triple bongs are? Pretty sure our airbi don't do that.

It is as if easy victor is an instruction to evacuate. The crew make a Pa to say stay seated to await the captain's instruction. Then 'easy victor' is heard (we assume from the flight deck) and then the flight attendants start evacuation.

[glendalegoon]

so, the engine was overheating so you use fire extinguisher? (something aint right here)

and some actor I have never heard of is gaining a great deal of publicity for his tweets.


I could say more, but you get the idea.

[A340Yumyum]

Total and utter mis-management of the crew from top to bottom. Absolutely no need at all for an evac. They should show the youTube footage of exactly how NOT to handle a 'possible' evac situation. I bet the passengers didn't know whether they were coming or going.

Embarrassing to watch......

[SeenItAll]

Total and utter mis-management of the crew from top to bottom. Absolutely no need at all for an evac. They should show the youTube footage of exactly how NOT to handle a 'possible' evac situation. I bet the passengers didn't know whether they were coming or going.

Embarrassing to watch......

This seems highly presumptuous unless you know exactly what the crew knew at the exactly the time all of this was going down. Just because in hindsight something turns out suboptimal does not mean that it was a suboptimal decision at the time it was made.

I hear the cabin crew calling BRACE. I hear the cabin crew calling STAY PUT. I hear the flight deck calling for an evacuation (if that is what Easy Victor means). And I hear the cabin crew calling for PAX to come this way. No CF seems to be occurring at all.

I am very sure that the captains of the Saudia plane in Jeddah or the Airtours plane in Manchester would like very much to reconsider their decisions not to order an immediate evac. Unless it turns out that the flight crew obviously knew there was no fire all along, I don't think anyone is going to second-guess this decision making.

[ManaAdaSystem]

"Fun" to watch how a poorly trained cockpit crew can screw up a situation.
"BRACE" is a call when you expect a possible crash landing, not when you have an abnormal situation just before landing.
Smoke is not a crash landing, and BTW where is the smoke?
Masks? Hahaha, total lack of knowledge!

[SeenItAll]

Another omniscient poster. What are the causes of smoke? Among them could be a wheel well fire. And what might that impair? Perhaps the brakes? If Swissair 111 had headed direct for Halifax upon the smoke in the cabin, how do you think they might have landed? Given how quickly the fire progressed, it was not going to be pretty.

PAX are not briefed for a multitude of abnormal landing situations (assuming the crew could even know exactly what abnormal landing situation they were in). They are briefed for one, which is a call of BRACE. And how did that call harm things?

[Vulcancruiser]

Worked a much worse scenario on a NWA A320 years ago at KSNA. Had a non-stop DTW flight loaded to the max with a takeoff on 19R. Shortly after rotation a large bird took out the right engine. Engine temp went to redline, a few blades missing.......pilot said it felt like they were going down a potholed road with the engine unbalanced. They kept the bad engine running because they needed all the help they could get. Circled out over the ocean and came back to 01L and the county waved them off to pick up parts and pieces off the runway. Superior airmanship was all that saved the day, as the wave off could have had dire consequences not imagined by the guys with brooms if you get the drift. Lined up on 01L and made a perfect approach and roll out..... no slides and almost unnoticed by the OC. All that made it to the media was a picture of the right side blowing fireballs out the back over the golf course. A VP called me and we towed it immediately to the boneyard. An engine was ordered up and about 3 days later we flew it out.

This shows the difference pre cell phone and media hysteria. A far more different and screwed up world today.

[lomapaseo]

From my read and see it looks like the problem was the aftermath of the engine event with visible and acrid smelling smoke in the cabin upsetting the passengers and CC. Thus the puposedly dropped masks to ease the choking feeling.

Yes the "BRACE BRACE probably added to it and the cap was the bloke who opened an exit by himself.

Not sure how long it takes to clear a cabin of visible smoke from an engine internal fire. Seems too long in this case

[GreyhoundMUC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTqnTMPxKaY

Another video from a passenger with the smoke inside the cabin present, and the announcement of the CPT that they had a RHS engine failure and returning to Long Beach.
According to the Flightaware flight track the engine issue started approx. five minutes before touch down, or nine minutes after take off.
As a SCCM myself I can only say that there is not much that can be done more than a very quick exchange with the flightdeck to report the smoke in the cabin, and the particular smell, and getting a very short NITSA briefing, that I can forwad to the rest of the crew!
I am not sure why on of the FA's is 'strolling' down the aisle. I can't see the importance of realeasing o2 masks manually anyway. Besides that crewmember is NOT wearing a portable o2 bottle so I guess the dropped down o2 masks just add a bit of a drama!
However, I categorise the situation as serios from my point of view but the passengers seem to be rather relaxed, filming the whole landing phase and themselves, and they seem totally unaware of what the call-out "BRACE,BRACE" means.
I would welcome some pilot view of an engine overheat warning and/or engine failure and the amount of workload that comes along with it.
And, also, how long is the checklist you pilots have to work down in such an incident, with engine shut down, alert call to cabin crew ect after the complete stop of the aircraft?

Thank you for some input!

[ManaAdaSystem]

Worked a much worse scenario on a NWA A320 years ago at KSNA. Had a non-stop DTW flight loaded to the max with a takeoff on 19R. Shortly after rotation a large bird took out the right engine. Engine temp went to redline, a few blades missing.......pilot said it felt like they were going down a potholed road with the engine unbalanced. They kept the bad engine running because they needed all the help they could get Circled out over the ocean and came back to 01L and the county waved them off to pick up parts and pieces off the runway. Superior airmanship was all that saved the day, as the wave off could have had dire consequences not imagined by the guys with brooms if you get the drift. Lined up on 01L and made a perfect approach and roll out..... no slides and almost unnoticed by the OC. All that made it to the media was a picture of the right side blowing fireballs out the back over the golf course. A VP called me and we towed it immediately to the boneyard. An engine was ordered up and about 3 days later we flew it out.

This shows the difference pre cell phone and media hysteria. A far more different and screwed up world today.

So they did not base their take off on single engine performance????

A single engine landing is not a crash landing. Why BRACE????
And who is Victor?

One issue is how modern tech is recording all we do, but it also records our not so glorious moments.
Not impressed.

[West Coast]

Great to have all this instant feedback from "experts" available 24/7. They have wifi on JB, skipper should have logged on and asked for emergency evac tech support to aid in the decision making process.

[dogsridewith]

In-cabin video on TV this am shows a whole lot more acrid(?) smoke than I'd want to be breathing anytime anywhere for any reason.

The if the "oxygen" from the masks has higher O2 than the cabin air, then I'd be breathing less smoke to get life sustaining O2.

Is there a way to open anything to ambient for a fast air exchange if the aircraft is at a low enough altitude that pressurization is not required?

[glendalegoon]

seenitall

with more data that is available in the press you might change your view.

1. reports are the "SMOKE" was coming from the air vents, so it was a good bet that is air conditioning smoke, not a wheel well fire.

2. if you listen to the ATC tape as airbubba posted, you will hear the captain advising ATC that the evacuation is cancelled. You will then hear ATC telling the captain that people are already out the back slides.

3. Oxygen masks in the cabin are not designed to protect from smoke, they are solely to allow a cabin depressurization situation to be handled. (some medical situations too, but better handled with walk around bottles)

4. IF an evacuation is ordered and important to the safety of life, YOU DO NOT ALLOW PASSENGERS TO TAKE THEIR SUITCASES.


Sorry seenitall, this is textbook how NOT to handle a situation. And it doesn't take too much experience to know this was screwed up and LUCK had something to do with no one getting badly hurt.

YOU don't evacuate just for fun, someone will get hurt in an evacuation. YOu evacuate because lives depend upon it and this situation DID NOT WARRANT AN EVACUATION.

[givemewings]

Mana, sorry have to disagree with you there. Depending on carrier-specific training, the crew are taught that in an unprepped emergency, Brace should be called prior to touchdown.

If the engine let go and then resulted in heavy smoke/vibration, the CC have no way to know if there is other structural/cpntrol damage. Of course time permitting the NITS briefing would take care of that, but if that was not done then better to assume controllabilty issue requiring Brace postion than to not do it.

Not like it's going to panic the pax any more than a cabin full of smoke.

Agree- pax o2 just looked weird...

Pax- turn off your silly phones, geez!

Can't stream the video at the mo, but depending on what kind of triple bongs you guys are referring to, it could also be the lav smoke alarm (Airbus has triple lo chimes in the inital, and repeating thereafter. A one-off triple hi-lo is, as mentioned, emergency call from cockpit)

[glendalegoon]

ecamsurprise


I guess you didn't read the part about the captain cancelling the evacuation and ATC telling him it had already started. That IS why I question the evac and don't you question an EVAC that allows people to bring suitcases? sheesh

[givemewings]

I would say it's not so much about 'allowing' pax to bring it, but having to make the call between wasting time arguing with them at the top of the slide to chuck the bag away or to let them down with it and keep them going out the door...

In some parts of the world you will be lucky to be standing holding on the assist handle without being shoved out by the pax and their oversized bags!

If it means I can get my arse out quicker, I'm not going to waste more than a second yelling 'Throw it aside!' before deciding if it'll be quicker to just let them get off with it....

Don't be too quick to condemn the CC....

[glendalegoon]

so many are defending actions that are clearly wrong. if anyone has data indicating jetblue passenger oxygen masks are designed to protect from smoke, let me know and I will say I am sorry.

[RetiredF4]

glendalegoon
so many are defending actions that are clearly wrong. if anyone has data indicating jetblue passenger oxygen masks are designed to protect from smoke, let me know and I will say I am sorry.


As the normal passenger doesn't know anything about the O-2 masks and wether it would help against the smoke, I would judge the deployment of the masks as a positive effect to calm the people. At least they think it would help against the smoke and have something to hold on.
Or do you think it would be better to explain to coughing passengers that the masks (some sure will ask for those) are of no use at all?

What is the negative effect of deploying the masks in a situation like that other than some costs?

Concerning the evacuation, as a passenger with no information at all as to the cause, intensity and lethality of the smoke in the cabin I would prefer some bruises during an evacuation against waiting long minutes for some stairs to arrive.

But as others said, I was not there, neither as crew nor as passenger, just expressing my feelings.

[fireflybob]

Correct me if I recall incorrectly but am sure the Boeing non normal checklists specifically advise against deploying pax oxygen in the event of smoke in the cabin?

[aJ_alaska]

It would appear in the photo posted previously that all slides were deployed during the evacuation, including those next to the #2 (failed/damaged) engine. I can't imagine either flight or cabin crew would intentionally direct passengers to evacuate via the overwing exit next to the damaged engine, or even on that side of the aircraft at all. Perhaps another sign of an uncontrolled passenger-initiated evacuation?

[dogsridewith]

Concern for deploying O2 masks would be feeding a fire? Do they flow continuously? Or only when drawn upon by inhaling? (If the latter: Is the control valve in the mask, so that if the tube was melted or otherwise ruptured the O2 would flow steadily?)

[Skisandy]

The monotone and loud screaming BRACE BRACE BRACE is the American way of doing things. Like the police screaming GET DOWN GET DOWN GET DOWN over and over at people who may have committed a minor offense. And look at the TSA security area in the US: Loud and monotone and continuous instructions to "take off your belts, take off your shoes, laptops out" etc.. etc.... In all other countries this is done silently and without loud instructions, and it works just as well, if not better.

[glendalegoon]

retired F4

doing the wrong thing is simply wrong.

[givemewings]

Dogs, depends on the unit fitted. Most newer/smaller aircraft have chemical units which when started will run until the chemical reaction generated by pulling the mask stops... ergo no (correct) pull on the mask, no oxy...

Gaseous systems (many 747, and A380) normally only run during a depressurisation, and can be stopped by reinserting a pin into the unit...

[Passenger 389]

"A bicyclist said Friday that authorities planned to investigate if a metal object that fell from the sky and landed about three feet away from her could have been from a JetBlue airplane that made an emergency landing in Long Beach . . . ."


FAA to Investigate If Piece of JetBlue Airplane Flew Off During Emergency Landing in Long Beach | KTLA (http://ktla.com/2014/09/19/faa-to-investigate-if-piece-of-jetblue-airplane-flew-off-during-emergency-landing-in-long-beach/)


The words stenciled on the object (in English and Spanish) say 'latch access panel' plus "Caution - Close and Latch C-Duct Before Deploying Reverser". It appears to be blue. Anyone know that this object is?

http://tribktla.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/possible-jetblue-piece.jpg

[RAD_ALT_ALIVE]

I suspect that the monotone "Brace Brace" and evident complete lack of any passenger control on the part of the FAs didn't do much to help matters.

The crew were chanting this as passengers started to clap - I started to chuckle while watching it. It completely failed to convey any kind of importance, yet alone urgency or danger, in its delivery.

Who knows what information the pilots were privy to; but it seemed there was very little time in-between the remaining engine being shutdown after the aircraft came to a stop, and the order to evacuate being given. In my mind's eye, I could see the Emergency Evacuation checklist being actioned; after the engine was shutdown, there were the three dings, then the command to evacuate. I could not see evidence of smoke or reduced visibility in the cabin at any point in the video (sure there was haze/smoke in the other video) that showed the start of the evacuation.

Why the unseemly haste?? The only suspicion that comes to mind is that poor information was conveyed to the pilots.

I'd be very embarrassed if I were in the safety/emergency procedures training department of JetBlue. Something very unsatisfactory transpired on this occasion.

But, hell, no one was hurt this time, so it can hopefully be used to fast-track changes in procedure to plug glaring holes in their system before somebody does get hurt.

[DaveReidUK]

But, hell, no one was hurt this time

Minor injuries are common during an evacuation. Four on this occasion, reportedly.

[dsc810]

Well it would help if we as passengers in steerage could actually get into a brace position.
The safety card "helpfully" shows a position one is totally unable to get to as the the seat in front of you is a matter of a foot away.
So not surprisingly passengers don't read/pay attention anymore to this rubbish.

[jfkjohan]

At the end of the day, I am sure that many will agree that, a landing that we can all walk away from, is a good landing. And great work to the crew involved for making such an act happen. No loss of lives + am sure the "injuries" might have been over hyped ie. a buns burnt from sliding down the shoot could count for an injury? (legally that is... might be a lawyers/legal thing)

Not to mention falling bags on heads when opening baggage compartments (which is pretty much a must avoid too, like, using mobile phones to take videos in an emergency!) yeap - it could all count for an injury.... any excuse to make future claims eh? Anyway..

These are trying times for the aviation industry IMHO, and if you would look at what happened from the Satire news site on the MH131 (FAKE) case, we can see how the public just got it wrong, even when there really was nothing wrong.

Many have already spoken on why oxygen masks don't automatically deploy and how it's merely for rapid decompression etc so won't touch on it, but yes, will most definitely want to review the actions to help improve my own CRM knowledge -- esp the coordination between the flight deck, the cabin, the controller, the company and the customers! Believe there might have been a break in the chain somewhere but, was not there, don't have the data, so can't comment. What we read in books is one thing, having the variables from real-life stories, make it even more dynamic for learning + self improvement.

Am pretty much interested to know why the 2nd engine failed and/or caught fire too! Also, the crew's actions leading up to it. Leaving out the whole pandemonium inside the cabin aside. That, we can leave to the media to get ratings.

[Airbubba]

Here's the classic 'I hoid a bang and I knew we wuz gonna die' tabloid style news item on the incident from CNN:

JetBlue passengers endure scary emergency landing - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/18/us/jetblue-emergency-landing/index.html)

I'm very hesitant to second guess the crew given the good result of the safe return and evac. These days any decision you make will be criticized by the geniuses on the ground here and elsewhere.

Fortunately, the only place I've ever made the evac call is in the simulator.

[DaveReidUK]

Am pretty much interested to know why the 2nd engine failed and/or caught fire too!

Where do you get the idea that both engines failed ?

[ManaAdaSystem]

Oh, you know what he means, Dave.

One thing I am curious about: Are US carriers prohibited from unlocking the cockpit door when they have an emergency?
That door is a true CRM killer. Direct communication could have stopped them from evacuating the aircraft.

Unlock is on top of my to do list when something serious happens.

[OFSO]

"YOU CAN HEAR BABIES CRYING"

Hardly indicative of an emergency, I've heard babies crying on any flight where babies were being transported.

[freshgasflow]

I am no expert, but what if the engine suffered an partially contained failure, with shrapnel that may latently affect AC control ? Engine failures are so rare, I 'd rather brace unnecessarily than wear a spinal "brace" for the rest of my life .....

[freshgasflow]

Again, I am no aviation expert, but I think in this situation, deployment of the masks is not a bad thing ( except from an economic viewpoint).
Firstly, with such thick smoke, there is considerable risk of passenger panic, with its safety impact. Many people associate oxygen with something that helps the body to survive. In this sense the presence of these masks can help allay anxiety.

Secondly, with such amount of smoke, there is a chance that some passengers with lung diseases such as asthma may get bronchospasm (tightening of the respiratory airways). In this situation, the extra oxygen may actually be of medical help.

[ManaAdaSystem]

No, the oxygen mask does not supply pure oxygen, they mix O2 with ambient air. So you tell the passengers to suck polluted air while they think they are breathing clean air.
They will be much better off breathing through some clothing/fabric. There is a reason why passenger oxygen masks are not in the smoke check list. I can't be bothered to look it up, but I believe Boeing advices AGAINST dropping the masks when you have smoke.

[bubbers44]

On two occasions had to decide between an emergency evacuation and continuing to gate. One I used all the slides, positive sabotage threat, and the other was smoke throughout the aircraft and we deplaned at gate.

Every situation is different but keeping the FA's in the loop is very important. Our airline procedure would be to not activate passenger oxygen masks. We didn't use brace for either because landing was not the problem.

On the first emergency I asked for push up stairs twice, once with dispatch and once with ops to avoid using the slides but they never arrived so had to make a last minute change with FA's to a full evacuation with slides.

It was a full B737 and as a new captain was relieved no one was injured.

[Dani]

Correct, ManaAdaSystem, and the cabin crew cannot deploy the passenger's oxygen masks, that's only possible from the flight deck. Unless these masks fell down by a technical glitch or heavy shock/vibration, there were more serious mistakes from the flight crew.

[Skyjob]

Boeing instructs crew to don oxygen masks, but does NOT include deploying passenger oxygen. (737)

[DaveReidUK]

the cabin crew cannot deploy the passenger's oxygen masks, that's only possible from the flight deck

I suspect you don't really mean that.

Cabin crew cannot initiate a mass deployment, but they can deploy as many individual seat rows' masks as they have the time and patience to do.

[M.Mouse]

Any competent commercial pilot will be appalled after watching those videos.

[porterhouse]

Hmmm...Why?

[Dani]

Passengers said they saw crew manually deploying masks.

then this crew must even be worse, because this would mean that they not only don't know their procedures, but they also loose valuable time to by doing very wrong things: You simply don't use oxygen masks in case of fire and smoke. Better use your time to make contact with the cockpit or serve wet towels.

This accident becomes to a true show off for imcompetency...

[glendalegoon]

I am a pilot and have voiced my views.

I do offer the concept that smoke rises and putting your face near the floor might provide slightly better air to breathe, whether on a plane or in a hotel room.

I do hope a firefighter will add to this thought.

This does prove something though! Its better to be lucky, than good!

[Mecaniquito84]

C Duct is the name of the reverse cowls. It seems that the panel in the photo is the one that cover the c-ducts latches, below engine. Must problably blowed out as a result of explosion.

(In this video, the one showed opened at 3:17
Airbus A320 (V2500) Opening & Closing of Engine Cowl Doors - YouTube)

Oxygen masks deploy automatically when airplane is above 10,000 feet more or less. So for them to be deployed so low, pilots should use a dedicated switch which deploys them no matter how highh the plane is.

Deploying the mask, pilots must probable avoided pass affected by smoke. It was a very good decison.

[Dani]

Oxygen masks deploy automatically when airplane is above 10,000 feet more or less

only when Cabin altitude rises above 10 000 feet (more accurate: above 13 500 to 14 000 ft, depending on type).

It's very unlikely that they had an engine fire/overheat/smoke and a cabin decompression at the same time. This has never happened so far I know. It's physically not very likely, because if air is being blown overboard, smoke is less likely to happen.

[Mecaniquito84]

Please take a look in this accident report at the possible cuase for fatalities. Note it was a an engine fire on ground!


PROBABLE CAUSE: "The cause of the accident was an uncontained failure of the left engine, initiated by a failure of the No 9 combustor can which had been the subject of a repair. A section of the combustor can, which was ejected forcibly from the engine, struck and fractured an underwing fuel tank access panel. The fire which resulted developed catastrophically, primarily because of adverse orientation of the parked aircraft relative to the wind, even though the wind was light. Major contributory factors were the vulnerability of the wing tank access panels to impact, a lack of any effective provision for fighting major fires inside the aircraft cabin, the vulnerability of the aircraft hull to external fire and the extremely toxic nature of the emissions from the burning interior materials. The major cause of the fatalities was rapid incapacitation due to the inhalation of the dense toxic/irritant smoke atmosphere within the cabin, aggravated by evacuation delays caused by a forward right door malfunction and restricted access to the exits.

[Dani]

Are you talking about an uncontained engine failure? This has most likely not happened on this occasion.

[Mecaniquito84]

No. I noted to pay attention to possible causes of fatalities near the end: smoke!!

[AKAAB]

A couple of points...

The triple chime that repeats about every 30 seconds is likely the Lav Smoke Detector Alert and not the cockpit-to-cabin call. Note that it sounds on a regular cycle, including during the flare.

There was a possible turbine burst - based on the reports that schrapnel hit the fuselage and cowling parts were found on the ground. I did hear internally that a fuel line burst or was cut, causing the fire to take longer than expected to extinguish. In my opinion, this alone could have primed the Captain to tell the flight attendants to prep for possible evacuation. Add in the smoke in the cabin and I can understand the Evac mindset during the 13 minute flight. A lot was happening in a short time.

Once on the ground, the PAs don't seem to match what was being told to ATC. This is a head-scratcher. There is clearly a PA telling the flight attendants to take their stations, then the Easy Victor call. (That's our EVAC command and we all know it's archaic and confusing.) Once started, it's extremely difficult to stop an evacuation. Based on the selfie-video, I don't see any evidence that the passengers were panicking or opened an exit before the Easy Victor call.

All in all, kudos for the crew for getting on the ground quickly. The NTSB and FAA will have a field day with the video evidence of how effective the company procedures are.

Personally, I am quite unhappy with seeing the passenger response and lack of true command of the cabin. Seeing the lack of reaction from the passengers as they were more concerned with turning on their cellphones and taking videos tells me that we need to adjust our culture and make sure there is no ambiguity when the Evac decision is made.

[Skyjob]

Cabin crew could've been put on station after the stop completed.
Crew talking to ATC then advised that evacuation started.
Safest thing to do then is to avoid confusion and command the evacuation including the other items on its checklist.

[Alycidon]

Deploying the mask, pilots must probable avoided pass affected by smoke. It was a very good decison.

no, the masks don't prevent smoke inhalation, they simply add oxygen, not ideal if there is a fire in the cabin.

Please take a look in this accident report at the possible cuase for fatalities. Note it was a an engine fire on ground!

if this was the British Airtours incident at MAN, then the smoke came from outside the cabin and the fuel fire rapidly spread, so no real relevance to this situation.

[Sailvi767]

Your understanding of how passenger oxygen systems work is wrong. The masks work similar to nasal tube systems. They simply add a small amount of oxygen to ambient air. They provide no protection in a smoke event and for that reason both Boeing and Airbus caution pilots not to deploy the system in the event of smoke in the cabin. The oxygen canisters also burn very hot and can generate a light smoke adding to confusion.
In this case the pilots did not deploy the masks. The flight attendants deployed them manually in the cabin. This suggests that Jet Blue's flight attendant training is lacking.

[Mecaniquito84]

You are right. My mistake. Thanks for correction.

[cosmiccomet]

I don´t know the oxygen confirguration for the Jet Blue´s Airbus A320 but for the standard aircraft there is no Flight Attendant Oxygen manual release for the Oxygen passenger mask from their stations.
For dropping "manually" the cabin crew should use the "manual release tool" for each passenger row.

So for dropping all the mask at the same time there is only a switch at the cockpit or the automatic mode due to the loss of pressurization at 14,000 ft cabin preassure.

[AKAAB]

The actor that was tweeting the events said the FAs were going through the cabin releasing the oxygen masks.

No comment on JB's flight attendant training...

[NSEU]

I have no comments on whether the evacuation was necessary or not, but "a few bruises" and "flesh burns" are not the worst injuries you can sustain using slides. I've heard of spinal injuries (after faulty slide deployment) and broken limbs (in one case possibly caused by a person carrying something at the time).

[Sailvi767]

Widebody evacuations often involve serious injuries or even deaths. The decision to use the slides requires careful consideration.

[bubbers44]

Absolutely, the slides must be used with much discretion. The CC is expecting direction from the cockpit so keeping them up to date on your situation and intentions is critical.

[Volume]

and the cap was the bloke who opened an exit by himself.I would like to know how JetBlue briefs passengers seated at emergency exits...
For a lot of airlines these days there is no briefing at all, and the pictographic instructions just tell you, not to open the exit in case you can spot a fire outside.
So matter of fact that bloke may just have done what he was poorly instructed to do...
Must problably blowed out as a result of explosion.Alternatively indicating that someone forgot to lock the thrust reverser correctly... It happened before for fan cowl doors, it may happen for thrust reversers as well, but with a totally different effect. After all the airflow which produces the fan thrust blows through it, and the engine will probably not like a half blocked passage at climb thrust...
But the report will clearly indicate the root course of the engine trouble, so no need for speculation.

[Ian W]

I would like to know how JetBlue briefs passengers seated at emergency exits...
For a lot of airlines these days there is no briefing at all, and the pictographic instructions just tell you, not to open the exit in case you can spot a fire outside.


Two things to note here:

1. CRM seems to stop at the flight deck. Why is there no brief to the pax on what is going to happen and what they are meant to do immediately after landing - even if it is stay where you are until we tell you to do something. Why use 'secret' codes for evacuation - perhaps if pax were better briefed their response might be better. Even Sully's Hudson adventure was nearly screwed up by a pax opening a rear exit door unrequested flooding the rear cabin.

2. "instructions just tell you, not to open the exit in case you can spot a fire outside" There has been a recent tendency for cabin crew to tell pax to close the blinds before leaving the aircraft and for pax in window seats to close the blinds anyway to 'play' with various electronics. In an emergency these will be left down and after a crash that stresses the airframe the blinds may well be jammed shut - so it will not be possible to "spot a fire outside". Cabin crew turn off the lights before take off - they should also open all the binds before engine start until after takeoff and reopen any closed blinds before landing.

[givemewings]

Not sure about the US, but in Oz we were instructed during the brief to tell them to only do so (window/self help exit) if they hear the command 'evacuate evacuate' and there is NOT an FA in the vicinity of the exits...

I always used to tell them what I wanted them to do if the exit was blocked/after exiting eg 'do not open the exit and do not let anyone else open unless it is safe' 'once you exit help the others away from the aircraft and upwind'

Ok maybe it was a bit more than required but it made me feel more comfortable and a number of them always commented 'I always wondered what you were supposed to do afterwards'

[Sailvi767]

I am not sure Easy Victor is a secret code. At my airline it is a warning to the flight attendants that a evacuation may be needed. It is however not a evacuation order. If evacuation is needed the flight crew is supposed to make a clear PA to the flight attendants and passengers to evacuate the aircraft and include any needed instructions as to exits to use. I suspect the same is true at JB and easy victor is not a evac command.

[bubbers44]

At our major airline Easy Victor meant evacuate now.

[AKAAB]

You are incorrect in your assumption. At JetBlue, there are three PAs to choose from after the brake is set after an RTO or Emergency Landing:

Remain Seated = do not evacuate.

Cabin Crew at Stations = evacuation possible, wait for command.

Easy Victor - Evacuate.

If it is decided that an evacuation is not warranted after the "cabin crew at stations" PA, then it will be followed by "remain seated."

At no point is there an actual "evacuate" PA given, just the coded PAs.

[fireflybob]

Am just wondering what the thinking is behind a coded PA from the flight deck instead of a command from the flight deck to evacuate?

[Allan L]

Would it be to ensure that cabin crew have a few seconds to get into position at their allocated stations before we SLF block the aisles in our haste to retrieve our carry-ons?

[Ian W]

Am just wondering what the thinking is behind a coded PA from the flight deck instead of a command from the flight deck to evacuate?

Has anyone done serious trials or any research on the relative merits of talking in code and keeping nervous pax in ignorance of what they are meant to do - or alternatively, in being completely overt and explaining to pax in simple terms this is what is about to happen/what has happened/what you are required to do ?

If you keep people in the dark on what they are meant to do - do not be surprised if there is considerable indeterminacy in what they do. Why not include pax in a 'CRM' type prebrief.

In this case it could have been:

"We have had a failure in one engine which is now shut down. We can fly perfectly well on one engine and will be landing in 5 minutes. There is some smoke in the cabin air from the hot shut down engine but it is not dangerous. After we land which should be a routine landing. we will stop on the runway for fire crews to check the engine. We do not expect to have to evacuate using slides but if we do - you must NOT take carry on bags with you. We can retrieve those later."

Repeated by cabin crew walking down the aircraft in the several minutes prior to landing....

Or just leave the SLF thinking the aircraft will explode into flames any second :eek: and they are next to exits they can open....:hmm:

[fireflybob]

Would it be to ensure that cabin crew have a few seconds to get into position at their allocated stations before we SLF block the aisles in our haste to retrieve our carry-ons?

Surely after a landing in this case they would maintain station until advised by flight deck?

I know different airlines have different procedures but in all the companies I have flown for the Evac is commanded from the flight deck in simple language.

[MrSnuggles]

@Ian W

Why not include pax in a 'CRM' type prebrief.

As one of the SLF simpletons I would very much love this kind of inclusion into the problem, IF there is a problem.

So, this will be a post from an SLF kind of view.

Be aware that I am the kind of SLF that always make an effort to listen to CC during safety briefings and I am highly annoyed by ignorants. Alas, I try to get into the mindset that IF something were to happen at least I have some kind of planning ability and IF the excrements were to come in contact with the air conditioning system I could maybe be of some use to CC, if just only as someone who DON'T open a door. I hope you get the gist.

Yes, there is always the problem of rowdy, unruly and just plain stupid SLF. But if there is at least one with some common sense and survival instincts that person could be a great help in case of the aforementioned manure. Thus it really helps to include us pax in the briefing. Hopefully the briefing will have a sobering effect on the more.. wild persons in the cabin, too.

Ok, back to lurking for now.

[kfly99]

Still not knowing all the details, I am wondering why they elected a return to KLGB with it's displaced 7,4xx runway in very busy VFR training traffic and not 12,xxx foot runway available at KLAX? LAX would likely be better prepped for an incident on the roll out. B6 does have a presence there as well, and it is only a bus ride between the two. But the route was south, and not knowing the aircraft condition it is hard to determine, but worth discussing.

[glendalegoon]

kfly99

as the pilot was pretty smart, he knew his personal automobile was parked at the long beach airport parking lot and it would be much more dangerous to drive between LAX and Long Beach to retrieve it.

so, he did what we would all do, he realized he could safely (except for evac mistakes and oxygen use) return to departure airport and he did so.

[bubbers44]

R12 is 10,000 ft. LGB or ONT were probably the nearest suitable airports to return on one engine and they were probably more familiar with LGB than LAX or ONT. Operationally it was the best choice so why make it complicated? 25L VFR traffic would not be a factor because the tower would manage that.

Smoke in the cabin would require using the nearest suitable airport as well as a single engine approach with a twin engine aircraft.

[AKAAB]

Agreed. The ability to stop the plane was not in doubt (landing distances are not predicated on thrust reversers.) The immediacy of the problem - engine failure with fire that took longer than expected to extinguish and smoke in the cabin - made LGB a viable option.

Also, looking at the flight track, they were already on a wide downwind and would have required a time-consuming course reversal and vectoring to get to LAX. They made the right choice to get it on the ground ASAP.

BTW - who here would not use the full 10,000ft of runway in an emergency?

[ettore]

Would it be an option (cost, additionnal weight, wiring, power supply, etc.) to have the overhead bins automatically locked in case of an evac?
The harder part would be to get the pax used to the idea that there is no point in trying to recover personnal belongings in an emergency, I guess.
To weight pro and contra, beside common sense, is there any facts, test or study about how much of an impairment, i.e. danger, it is when pax struggle for their stuff in the midst of an evac ?