Scavenging a crashed 777: for a book

[kenpimentel]

Hi, I'm writing a book of fiction that involves a slightly damaged 777 that landed on a primitive island. I've been lucky to be in contact with a 777 pilot to get his input, but there are a lot of technical questions he doesn't know. Hopefully, some of you experts will answer my questions.

Appropriate title for an aircraft engineer?
One of the PAX is on the 777 in order to fix a 757 that is broken elsewhere. What is this person's correct title? Is it "Aircraft Engineer"? Or, Maintenance Engineer or something else? I'm assuming the person is about 35 years old and would be fairly knowledgeable regarding all the plane's systems.

Emergency radios on the raft - can you talk with them?
I know each raft has a radio set to 121.5Mhz, the question is if they just emit a homing signal or if you can talk to anyone else using one of these?

Galley hot water boiler
I'd like to use the hot water boiler as a pressure vessel to generate steam. My question is how large are these boilers (gallons) and how many a 777 is likely to have.

Cabin printer, cockpit printers
Are these regular 8.5 x 11 inkjet printers? Or dot-matrix? Or what? They would be valuable, at least until their ink ran out. Are supplies typically carried on board?

thanks!

[grounded27]

Appropriate title for an aircraft engineer?

LAME, Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, AMT Aircraft Maintenance Technician in the USA.


Emergency radios on the raft - can you talk with them?

No they beep only. This is called an ELT, there is generally one on the aircraft and others in emergency rafts.

Galley hot water boiler

Maybe a few liters, not sure about quantity in craft.

Cabin printer, cockpit printers

Probably 8 1/2 wide but it is on a roll with perforated seams. They are thermal printers.

[kenpimentel]

Thanks for the feedback.

Do you know if there is a hand-held VHF radio typically on the aircraft? I see the ground-crew with them, but does a unit remain on the aircraft?

[grounded27]

Typically not, yet on battery power a static inverter converts dc to ac and one ships radio may be operational.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are variants of emergency radio which do have built in microphones and allow voice on 121.5. The use of the option is not encouraged, as it eats battery life. Some variants of 777 may have them fitted. Most modern units transmit location (GPS co-ordinates) on 406 MHz also, although some still don't - the odds are that anything fitted to a 777 will.

Typical units:-

http://www.transair.co.uk/sp+Kannad-Emergency-Locator-transmitters-ELT-Kannad-406-AF-Integra-ELTs+4010

http://www.sportys.com/pilotShop/product/16431

G

[going down-under]

I like where your imagination is taking you :cool: Except 1 thing: B777's don't crash unless you make it crash :)

But to continue with your story, you'll have to decide how damaged it is (and what caused it), do you still have battery power (for a short time anyway)?
If so, you'll have radio.
BTW they say the battery lasts about 30mins on a flying/systems powered plane.

Coffee makers have a boiler of about 1ltr, depending on aircraft configuration there are about 10-14 on board. They run on electricity (unless you want to boil the water on a campfire :8)

Good luck

[kenpimentel]

Some more background:
- The plane doesn't crash, they try to land it with wheels up on the water and "slide" it up onto the beach. It mostly works, except for the tail section which fractures, but remains attached. Minimum loss of life.

- Some fuel remains, they didn't ditch it all. Possibly 1,000 gallons.

- Engines are DOA, but the RAT and APU should be functional, the engines remained attached and were shut down on impact, but they did take in quantities of seawater and beach sand. I don't expect them to be operational and I can't imagine the value of getting them to work.

- They have used the alternator and a bike from cargo to build a windmill. Doesn't produce much, but enough.

- They will have to figure out how to build a steam-powered electrical generation eventually. I'm figuring the boilers might work for that. I was hoping that the tanks used for water/waste could be turned into boilers, but it seems they are made of carbon-fiber? They don't seem to be aluminum or SS.

- Are the reservoirs used for oil and the fuel tanks made of carbon-fiber too? Any large containers that might be made out of SS?

- Thanks for the details on the 121.5Mhz. My pilot friend that flies 777 mentioned he thought they had voice, I didn't know if he was mistaken or not. I guess my 777 will have those types of 121.5Mhz radios/beacons.

[going down-under]

Again, I like your thinking, mate :ok:
You're not stupid and doing the research, I hope we can help (don't count on me too much;) )

Watertanks (3 of on 777-300) are fibreglass
Wastetanks (2 of) are carbon fibre, so both are good for storage (although wastetanks???) or as floating devices.

The RAT might survive the impact/landing but only if it remains retracted (it deploys from the bottom of the plane).The RAT deploys automatically when both engines stop....so be aware.
Bare in mind the APU needs fuel to work (they use about 200+ kilograms per hour) the fuel pipe runs under the floor so you might want too leave that intact.

The oiltanks, sit on the engines, are made of casted aluminium, probably melts.....

O, and about the fuel; they dump it (jettison) and ditch the plane

I probably go too much into details and I keep thinking about a movie i.s.o. a book (hope for you one day they'll make a movie of it), forgive me for that.

And again, my beloved Triple doesn't fail :}

[kenpimentel]

Thanks for the clarifications. Too bad the APU uses so much fuel to run, that would be an easy win.

I wonder if the APU could eventually be converted to run off steam power? It's a turbine after all. Maybe with some modifications? Of course, the modifications would have to be made with a limited set of tools.

[onetrack]

Kenpimental - Hmmmm ... you do know this plot has been done before, in both book and film form, don't you?? :rolleyes:

http://media.apunkachoice.com/image/Upload-Wallpapers/Wallpaper/main_image-37157.jpg

[kenpimentel]

Yes, familiar with that. Of course, my plot is very different. I haven't revealed it completely. There is certainly not going to be any effort to make another airplane to fly people off the island. They are stuck where they are and must make the most of it.

And no, it isn't a version of, "Lost" either, though both happened on an island. The island is of no major significance. I plan on making the 777 more of a focus in this story. More McGyver than the impossibilities of Lost. Of course, there is an interesting twist, but that can't be revealed. ;)

[FakePilot]

Steam engine and bike alternator.... Not alot of current there. I'd go for the generators in the engine or APU. Then you might have enough juice to annoy everyone nearby with a spark gap transmitter. This is assuming the radios are inop.

[LASJayhawk]

Well since the airframe is pretty much in one piece, the 406 ELT would have gone off and rescue will be within a day or two at most.

When I traveled a lot, I took a portable printer with me, maybe one of the pax did the same? Check the cargo, maybe someone was shipping a small diesel generator (they will run on jet A) if you want a more "McGyver" kind of thing, and a tight power budget to boot, have a box of thermocouples in the cargo. Strung together with any kind of a heat source and you can get some power.

Check out how the RTG's work in spacecraft like Voyager or even some Russian lighthouses worked for the idea.

[kenpimentel]

There is no hope of rescue. They are on their own. It's not exactly the world as it exists today. Sorry if that's confusing.

There are thermal printers on the plane. I believe there are two of them. I'm not sure about the stability of thermal paper, so it's probably a good idea for someone to bring a portable ink-jet printer.

I'm hoping to convert a gas-powered engine over to steam. I know it can be done. I have to figure out what kind of simple gas-powered engine would make sense in the cargo hold. It seems to be "cheating" to have a small diesel generator sitting on the plane ready to go. I want more McGyver than that.

Thermocouples seem a little forced. It would be pretty random for them to be on the plane.

Right now, I don't think I'll need more thank 1KW per day generation. A windmill will do that. They'll want a steadier power source than wind, which is why steam is the next logical step. Best case would be that steam could drive the APU, but that might require super high pressures and volumes that are difficult to generate McGyver style.

But thanks for the ideas! Please keep them coming.

[SawMan]

Don't overlook the possibility of 'scavenge finds', perhaps things from discovered crashed planes from a war in the past, or things that get washed ashore (can be tied in with a storm). Such things could fill in for items not available from the plane to make your story plans work. I'm a sucker for a good realistic story, kudos on doing the research!

[onetrack]

Thermal paper actually keeps for quite a long time if kept tightly wrapped, and stored in a cool dark place. I have some that is over 20 years old, and it's still usable.

[lomapaseo]

There will be plenty of intact pressure vessels all around the plane that can be used to store steam (engine oil tanks, potable and waste water tanks even made of fiberglas, and last but not least fire fighting tanks with a squib still under pressure).

The problem is the boiler itself not blowing up. I would use a hydaulic piston as the boiler enclosure.

Course there are also all kinds of stuff in the shipping containers in the hold including tyres under pressure which could power the many micro-turbines like engine starter motors etc.

I bet if you managed to buy a scrapped B777 (Asiana) you could ship it to an island and populate it with volunteers to sort these questions out pretty damn quick.

[kenpimentel]

Q1: Are there fire-fighting equipment on the plane? If so, of what form?

Q2: How big is the hydraulic piston you're talking about? If there are hydraulic pistons, then I think a primitive steam engine might be possible using them?

Q3: Are there any tools that you'd expect to find on a plane in the normal course of events? I'm assuming there aren't any - except for what the AMT is bringing with her to fix a 757. A hacksaw is going to be vitally important to their future...

I'm here at the Smithsonian and there is a museum which shows all sorts of old steam generators, electrical generators and early inventions. Good material!

[Agaricus bisporus]

You'd need a locomotive boiler to produce enough steam to run the apu, even if it runs at all as white hot dry gas requires somewhat different fluid dynamics than warm wet steam. You don't get anywhere near the volume or pressure of steam from a "primitive boiler". Anyway, why do all that when you have 1000gal fuel?

Diesel generators are seldom carried on passenger flights I fear. They are far too heavy- you buy them where you need them.

You deployed the RAT. It will have been destroyed in the ditching.

Aircraft generators are far, far too big, heavy specialised and and complex to run off a heath robinson windmill I think, the RAT gen might just work (if it miraculously survived) but you're going to need a machine shop to modify the gearing/drives and build the windmill which would have to be pretty big to produce the power to drive even the rat gen. Did you have a machine shop in the hold too? Also on a modern aircraft like a 777 gennys are controlled by black boxes elsewhere. They produce 400v ac. Did the inverters miraculously survive the salt-soaking too?

No tools on a 777 unless in baggage. Few aircraft mechanics would carry a hacksaw in the sort of "light" toolkit they'd use on a short fix-it trip. Its just not a tool used in aircraft maintenance.

On a busy 777 someone is going to have a satfone in their pocket

I fear you'll have stretched credibility far enough (and then some) just by ditching at sea and managing to slide it up the beach. All the rest is making it become comedic.

If you have to do the Flight of the Phoenix stuff leave out the seawater at the start is my advice, and even then tread very very gently, a digitally controlled 777 isn't a tin and rivets Boxcar!

[grounded27]

I used to operate as a flight mechanic, this could be a charter aircraft, you would have a Maintenance REP (flight mech) on board with a portable personal tool box in a main deck closet and a FAK, fly away kit in one of the belly holds. This has contained in the past several sections of flexible hose, a 60 tonne jack, pipe swaging kits and sections of pipe. And a few belly cans full of every part (mostly electronic boxes) that if failed could ground an aircraft. This is done to allow a charter service to be anywhere at anytime w/o ground support. they are commonly used by sports teams, oil companies, cruise lines, casinos the big business right now is the military.

[kenpimentel]

re: APU
I've been told that 1,000G of fuel is about 15 hours of APU operation. If there is no ability to stretch for let's say a week or two, then it isn't worth the effort to run. Anyway, it produces way more energy than they need at this point. The only feasible long-term method is to use steam power with the APU, and I agree, it would take a huge boiler for that. I don't think anything existing on the plane could be repurposed for that.

re: RAT
Would the RAT deploy if the captain shut down the engines? He does it just before they hit the water. I think the RAT is plausibly the best thing to use for generation once they reach a little more sophisticated stage of development.

re: saltwater immersion
In this scenario, the plane is not immersed/floating in seawater. It's more like it is a powerboat blasting through shallow water/bottom as it rides up onto the shore. It isn't in the shallows for more than 5-10 seconds - so I'm going to pretend that nothing was really damaged by the saltwater except the engines.

re: aircraft gennys
I think there is some confusion. I'm talking about using the 28V AC alternators that are driven by the engine as backup power. I believe these are 300W at 2300 RPM. I'm not talking about the IDG - those are heavy duty 120KVA alternators that spin at 24K.

re: power conversion/inversion
I realize the APU has to also be removed from the plane to get the output to be converted to something that will work with portable electronics and AC tools. I do have an AMT on the airplane (for a good plot reason). She will be able to use her docs on her laptop to figure out the bits and pieces.

re: ditching?
Why is that so far fetched? If Captain Sulley could have ended the flight of his Airbus right onto a gently sloping beach, don't you think he would? Anyway, I do have a pilot who currently flies 777s reviewing the book and he didn't mention anything wrong with this scenario. I think it is because he's reading what I wrote and you're assuming something about what I wrote. Maybe I'll publish those portions on this forum if that will help.

re: charter flight
It would be a big change in the plot/characters to go with a charter flight. I'm hoping that I can use the excuse that there is an AMT on board who is headed to fix a 757 and is bringing along a decent set of tools to make sure they can.

re: hacksaw
Things get a lot more complicated without a way to cut SS/Alum up. One option is to have it in the cargo hold. I'm a sailor, and I know that whenever I travel to my boat, I'm bringing all sorts of tools/replacement parts. All it takes is for some passenger who is scheduled to spend a week on a boat somewhere in the Caribbean to be bringing some badly needed tool to the skipper.

re: Sat phone/406 EPIRB/GPS
These won't work as there are no satellites in the sky. Help is not around the corner. There is no rescue being staged, no one is coming for them. They are on their own.

[grounded27]

I'm talking about using the 28V AC alternators

You must be referring to the BUG's. Instead of explaining I will cut and paste.

Backup Generator Power
The backup converter gets power from only one ot the backup generators at any time. The converter changes the variable frequency power to 115v, 400 Hz ac power and sends it to the transfer buses. Power goes through the converter circuit breakers (CCB).
Only one backup generator supplies power at a time. Normally, the left backup generator supplies power to the left transfer bus and the right backup generator supplies power to the right transfer bus. If the left and right transfer buses need power, the right backup generator supplies the power if it is available.
The backup generator converter also controls, monitors, and protects the backup power system. The converter gets an input from each backup generator (BACKUP GEN) switch. When the switch is in, the converter controls the related CCB and transfer bus breaker (TBB) automatically. When the switch is out, the converter opens the CCB, closes the TBB, and trips the field of the generator. The converter causes the OFF light to come on for each switch for any of these conditions:
•Switch is out

•Backup generator field relay opens because of a fault

•Engine fire switch is pulled out

•Engine is shutdown.

[kenpimentel]

Yes, I believe that is correct. Someone else on this forum provided me with the 300W and 2,300 RPM info. Not a lot of power, but it works for a wind-generator that they can fairly easily build - using a bike frame/gearing to get higher RPM from the windmill.

Thanks for contributing.

[Genghis the Engineer]

re: APU
I've been told that 1,000G of fuel is about 15 hours of APU operation. If there is no ability to stretch for let's say a week or two, then it isn't worth the effort to run. Anyway, it produces way more energy than they need at this point. The only feasible long-term method is to use steam power with the APU, and I agree, it would take a huge boiler for that. I don't think anything existing on the plane could be repurposed for that.

It would take a lot of skill, and quite a few tools, to extract an APU from a ditched aircraft and get it into a runnable state, with the rest of the aeroplane fully or partly emersed in salt water.

re: RAT
Would the RAT deploy if the captain shut down the engines? He does it just before they hit the water. I think the RAT is plausibly the best thing to use for generation once they reach a little more sophisticated stage of development.

Almost certainly, unless he deliberately disabled it.

re: saltwater immersion
In this scenario, the plane is not immersed/floating in seawater. It's more like it is a powerboat blasting through shallow water/bottom as it rides up onto the shore. It isn't in the shallows for more than 5-10 seconds - so I'm going to pretend that nothing was really damaged by the saltwater except the engines.

Most stuff emersed in saltwater can be resurrected by prompt rinsing through in freshwater.

re: aircraft gennys
I think there is some confusion. I'm talking about using the 28V AC alternators that are driven by the engine as backup power. I believe these are 300W at 2300 RPM. I'm not talking about the IDG - those are heavy duty 120KVA alternators that spin at 24K.

re: power conversion/inversion
I realize the APU has to also be removed from the plane to get the output to be converted to something that will work with portable electronics and AC tools. I do have an AMT on the airplane (for a good plot reason). She will be able to use her docs on her laptop to figure out the bits and pieces.

And the large box of specialist tools to remove then modify the APU?

Why don't you just save your credibility by inventing the carriage of some equipment with an electric motor and basic servicing tools in cargo?

re: ditching?
Why is that so far fetched? If Captain Sulley could have ended the flight of his Airbus right onto a gently sloping beach, don't you think he would? Anyway, I do have a pilot who currently flies 777s reviewing the book and he didn't mention anything wrong with this scenario. I think it is because he's reading what I wrote and you're assuming something about what I wrote. Maybe I'll publish those portions on this forum if that will help.

No, I don't think he would - you can't reasonably expect to judge the stop-distance with any accuracy. I think that he'd do again pretty much what he did do - land parallel with the shoreline to create a short distance to shore.

re: charter flight
It would be a big change in the plot/characters to go with a charter flight. I'm hoping that I can use the excuse that there is an AMT on board who is headed to fix a 757 and is bringing along a decent set of tools to make sure they can.

re: hacksaw
Things get a lot more complicated without a way to cut SS/Alum up. One option is to have it in the cargo hold. I'm a sailor, and I know that whenever I travel to my boat, I'm bringing all sorts of tools/replacement parts. All it takes is for some passenger who is scheduled to spend a week on a boat somewhere in the Caribbean to be bringing some badly needed tool to the skipper.

Also remember the fire-axes in the cockpit and galleys.

re: Sat phone/406 EPIRB/GPS
These won't work as there are no satellites in the sky. Help is not around the corner. There is no rescue being staged, no one is coming for them. They are on their own.

There are always satellites in the sky.

Have you considered for example not using a 777 and using something basic (a DC3?, Islander?...) run by a small inter-island charter airline? More likely to have accessible tools as less in the way of security checks, more basic equipment relatively easy to canibalise, much less in the way of hi-tech avionics.

G

[kenpimentel]

re: RAT
OK, it got partially deployed and it's a tangled mess. Might be something salvageable, but not initially.

re: tools
Yes, I have to accept there will be some tools in cargo. I had hoped not to use the "magic box" of cargo to solve problems, but seems this might be required.

re: BUG
I think I can use this still, at least initially. I'm not hearing any good reasons why that can't be removed from the plane and used for power generation. I agree it isn't trivial as it means the BUG Converter must also be pulled from the plane to convert the power. I'm not sure if it delivers 115v 60Hz or if it delivers 115v 400hz.

re: ditch scenario
I think it will make sense if you read it. At least I hope so. It's important that the plane winds up mostly salvageable. This seems as gentle as I can do it.

re: world
You misunderstand me. I didn't say there are no satellites in sight, I mean there are NO satellites. Neither are there any reinforced concrete runways where they are...

re: fire axes
Thanks! Those are going to be very handy. Do you know how many? Those are going to be major players!

re: not a 777
I've made the 777 a major actor in the story and it'd mean a lot of rework/research. I also need a lot of people to come to this new world (hundreds). Less than 100 won't support the long-term goals of the story.

[ukv1145]

The BUGs are still large 20kva gens, frequency wild machines that are directly driven by the engine gearbox that can provide power in tbe event of a main gen failure. The FADEC alternators are tiny units designed only to provided power to the FADEC EECs, very easy to drive by a small wind turbine, also designed to give a useable output at low rpm for windmilling air starts etc. Yes the output would have to be rectified but that only requires a few diodes.

[winglit]

Any AMT or LAME worth their salt will have a Leatherman in their toolbox. If they are not flying as a flying spanner, then they are very likely to have it clipped onto their belt. The Leatherman Wave or Supertool has an excellent hacksaw. Modern day security busybodies get very nervous letting engineers fly on planes with tools these days.

If on flying duties he or she might have a lightweight toolbox stowed in the cockpit, or a larger metal line tool box loaded into the bulk cargo.

Flying spanner - Colloquial term for an aircraft engineer employed on flying duties.

I'm a flying spanner currently on B767s but I also have B777 type rating.

[kenpimentel]

re: BUGS
Thanks for the clarification on BUGs, I should be saying FADEC EECs. They don't seem to be well documented in my research, thanks for steering me straight.

re: Flying Spanner
Thanks for those kinds of inside terminology. I'll definitely use them.

[onetrack]

If you have a crashed, stranded aircraft, and one pax is found to possess useful tools - then you'd better include the war between the survivors over possession of those tools. :) I trust you've read Lord of the Flies. :(

[Genghis the Engineer]

One axe in the cockpit, a second in the most rearward galley.

Also if you're interested, 2 megaphones, 4 hand fire extinguishers: probably 2 halon, 2 water. There should be a well equipped first aid kit, and *possibly* an emergency medical kit somewhere.

G

[kenpimentel]

re: second axe
Great to know. I didn't see it on my Boeing Flight Crew Op manual. I guess some airlines might have it and others don't. Or, my document is out of date. Seems a security risk to have an axe where the public can access it...

re: LOTF
Yes, read it, I'm hoping to keep things from degenerating that far, but there will certainly be differences in opinions about how to survive and what to do with their future.

re: fire fighting
My Boeing doc says there are (777-200):

o Axe
• 1 cockpit
o Flashlights
• 2 cockpit
• 12 cabin (1 per attendant seat)
o Oxygen
• 15 small portable ones in cabin
o Oxygen mask with smoke goggles
• 2 cockpit
o Portable breathing equipment (PSE)
• 1 cockpit
• 6 cabin
o Fire extinguishers
• 1 Halon in cockpit
• 3 H2O
• 3 Halon

[NutLoose]

It's quite feasible to have a toolkit on board, you often get contract engineers flying between jobs and their tools go as freight, you might also find tools as cargo etc..

Have you thought of driving your generator by water power, if there is a waterfall or stream a wooden paddle wheel could be built to turn it.

[winglit]

Have you thought about how your engineer is going to do the fabrication of turning your apu into a steam engine?

You may have a box of hand tools on board that belongs to your engineer. But to fabricate and connect things like pulleys and gears onto axles you're going to need to be able to weld. I've come up with an idea for this. You could use the aircraft main battery as a supply and the steel spring rods inside the passenger seats as the welding rods. Aircraft battery is a Nicad 24V with lots of juice, but you're going to have to watch the temperature during welding or it will explode! Then you will need to recharge it again.

The engine FADEC control alternators are your best bet. However they are bolted on to the front face of the engine gearbox at the bottom of the engine, which I imagine will be embedded in the beach! These little alternators produce quite a lot of power for their size and can power the entire engine at only 7% N2 (don't ask me what RPM the alternator is running at, I have no idea) They have two output windings, one for each FADEC channel. The output from these alternators is AC, so you're going to have to run it through a rectifier to be able to charge your battery. Like the standby TRU.

Well you did say you wanted McGyver!

[kenpimentel]

re: tools
Yes, they must be on the plane. You need the basic tools that will allow you to fabricate more tools. I have researched forging of stainless steel and casting of aluminum. AFAIK, those are the only two metals on the plane. I wish there were some brass/bronze or copper. I guess their must be copper in the "300 miles" of electrical cabling claimed by Boeing. I'll have to calculate what that might work out to be...

re: water power
This island is a real island and they don't have those elevations unfortunately.

re: welding
Awesome! I should have thought of that. I mean even with regular lead-acid batteries you can sort of do the same thing. The problem is that they don't like that kind of discharge. I think/hope NiCADs will handle it better. I thought the big batteries on the plane were lead/acid, so it's good to know they're not.

re: FADEC control alternators
Are these the same as the FADEC EECs? Just want to make sure. If so, I'm told they produce 300W at 2300 RPM (by a forum member). Yes, they need to be pushed through one of the TRUs to get DC.

I didn't realize where they were located. I'll have to talk about how hard they were to retrieve. Perhaps an engine is torn off the plane and more accessible...

[itsresidualmate]

When I go down route I take my normal line engineer toolbox, that has pretty much everything I need including a hacksaw, files, my own multimeter, gas soldering iron, etc.
With hand tools I think you can be pretty generous with what an engineer would have, especially for a story, also if the aircraft is a charter operation they carry a fair bit of spares. The 777's I work on have a fairly big spares pack up onboard. Don't forget the big aircraft also carry a whole load of cargo, not just passenger bags. You could have anything in there.

Re generators; without wanting to dig out my training notes, am I not correct in thinking that if a motor is driven, it becomes a generator? First class and business class seats are full of electrical motors, could one of these be jury rigged into being a generator? As I said, my little gas soldering kit goes with me on flights!
For some sort of steam shenanigans, the main engines and APU also have air starters, little air turbine motors. One of these connected to a generator on one end and a spanking big kettle on the other might give you a working rotating thing of some sorts!

[kenpimentel]

re: tools
Thats what I wanted to hear. A reasonably well-equipped tool bag. Spares aren't probably useful unless they can be easily repurposed to do other useful things.

re: motors
From my research, it seems that a brushless DC motor may produce DC or AC depending on it's design. I think that is what I learned. For use in power generating, you need a design that produces power at low RPM (500 or so). A high RPM DC motor isn't useful unless you can gear it to get the proper RPMs.

re: turbine starters
That's great news! Theoretically, that could be removed from the APU and put on something smaller. It's probably well setup to drive with steam (once I figure out how to get a decent sized boiler together). I think I could theoretically use the carbon-fiber waste tank as long as I don't heat it with a direct flame. If I protected it with an aluminum plate from the plane, the radiant heat from the plate would heat the tank. After all, it shouldn't have to get more than 150 degrees C to produce plenty of steam. Need to work out all the math and look at the pressures it would require...

[Genghis the Engineer]

Although making your own steam boiler is an easy way to blow yourself up. There's a lot of energy in pressurised steam and making a strong enough boiler is very difficult. That may be a plot device in itself for you of-course. ..

G

[whatsthefrequencyken]

Although making your own steam boiler is an easy way to blow yourself up. There's a lot of energy in pressurised steam and making a strong enough boiler is very difficult.

Can't help you with where to find the parts on a 777, but you should consider a Sterling cycle steam engine. Low pressure, very efficient, much safer. High pressure steam would be insane without purpose built pressure vessels.

[kenpimentel]

re: steam power
Sterling is great, maybe a little more complex to make than a simple steam turbine mounted on the shaft of an alternator that doesn't try to be very efficient - it dumps heated steam that could do more work. Until I spend some time researching, I don't really know if high pressure was required. I'm sure there is a formula that will tell me what pressure and volume is required to drive a certain horsepower motor. The little research I've done suggests it might work - without high pressures or high temps.

[itsresidualmate]

You also have the O2 bottles that'll take a couple of thousand psi and the hydraulic accumulators that'll take over 3000psi

[kenpimentel]

How big are the hydraulic accumulators? How many gallons will they hold?

The problem with the container is that you've got to put feed water into it or you'll have a short run. It takes at least a gallon/minute to get any useful work out of steam power. If the boiler is pressurized to say 50psi (keeping it relatively safe) then I also need a 50+psi pump to inject the feedwater into the boiler. Can I assume the freshwater lines in the plane are pressurized to at least 40? Perhaps that could be how I get to at least 40psi.

It all suggests the minimum size for a boiler to produce 500W-1KW is going to be around 60G or so. Again, I haven't worked it out, but I've played with some steam calculators.
Steam Calculators: Steam System Modeler (http://www4.eere.energy.gov/manufacturing/tech_deployment/amo_steam_tool/overview)

[SloppyJoe]

You would not shut the engines down prior to ditching, they would be running until the sea water caused them to stop. The RAT would not have deployed in a controlled ditching.

[kenpimentel]

Wouldn't the RAT still try to deploy if the engines stop because of seawater? I assume it would still open the hatch and drop down - though I don't know how fast the RAT deploys.

[winglit]

Hydraulic accumulators withstand pressures up to 3000psi, however their volume is only 50 cubic inches. They are located in the aft stab bay.

I would recommend the hydraulic reservoirs. They could easily withstand pressures over 50 psi as they are normally pressurised with bleed air. They are also fitted with an over pressure relief valve that goes off at 90psi. You could mount them directly above an open flame.

The left and right system reservoirs have volumes of 12.6 gallons and the centre system reservoir has a volume of 26 gallons. The left and right reservoirs are located in each respective engine pylon and the center one is in the right hand wheel well.

Ideal boilers for your steam engine.

Are there any hills or cliffs on your island? You could build a header tank to feed the boiler. Static pressure calculations determines each foot provides 0.43psi, therefore to supply 50psi you would require a header height of 116 feet.

[kenpimentel]

re: steam boilers
OK, that's what we'll do. It's pretty flat on this island, they will just use two freshwater pumps in series. That should get them to 80psi. I hope that after this is all done, I'm producing net power!

Can someone confirm there are indeed freshwater pumps? Or, do they just pressurize the freshwater container with air or something? I just need two pumps that could push at least 1GPM and will pressurize to 40psi.

[grounded27]

re: FADEC control alternators
Are these the same as the FADEC EECs? Just want to make sure. If so, I'm told they produce 300W at 2300 RPM (by a forum member). Yes, they need to be pushed through one of the TRUs to get D


That is usually referred to as a PMG permanent magnet generator, not sure off the top of my head about wattage, frequency, voltage. The main purpose is to supply power to the FADEC, Full Authority Digital Engine Control in the event of a power failure. This supplies power to that fly by wire engine to allow a minimal level of control. Think I replaced one once on another FADEC engine, it is a small unit. They are very reliable, if they were not I could probably tell you more about them. Suppose I will go back into the books tomorrow on the GE90
.

[kenpimentel]

re: PMG
I understand. According to what I read, there are two PMGs per engine? Here is my source: "Each backup generator contains two permanent magnet generators (PMGs) that supply power to the flight control DC electrical system (refer to DC Electrical System)."

I can't find any specs on the web, so if you have any, that'd be great.

re: PSA batteries
Do you know what they are referring to? Are these the same as the main batteries? "Each PSA also uses a dedicated battery to prevent power interruptions to the related flight control DC bus. The batteries have limited capacity and are incorporated to supply power for brief periods during PSA power source transfers."

[itsresidualmate]

There is 777 info in the public domain. Have a look here;

SmartCockpit - Airline training guides, Aviation, Operations, Safety (http://www.smartcockpit.com/)

[kenpimentel]

Thanks, that doesn't have the details I'm searching for, but it is very useful.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Ken, I'm afraid this whole thing is so riddled with unwarranted assumptions, mechanical and practical impossibilities it is turning into a bit of a joke.

Leaving aside the miraculously intact arrival you're going to remove some electrical components that have been buried in seawater and sand and attach them to a home made steam turbine.

Might I suggest a little research on a) steam turbines and b) boilers?

Using the Apu as a turbine is vanishingly unlikely to work due to the vast amount of workshop modifications needed to even get steam into it - ie removing the compressor section off a single shaft design and revealing the casings(!) plumbing the steam feed and controls ( oh yes, aircraft battery and seat springs for welding rod...) and then finding out the hard way that you'd need a boiler the size of a locomotive to produce the required amount of steam (apu probably produces several hundred KW total output, go figure your boiler size at 60gal per KW, not to mention the fuel consumption) were you planning to dig an oil well too?
Anyway, steam turbine design is very complex and extremely sensitive to anything less than ideal, they only run in a very narrow range of design speed, steam pressure and temp. There is not a chance in a million the apu would do this. It might turn but it wouldn't produce any power. Plus the lumpy saturated steam your home brew boiler would produce (50 psi? Come on! Try four to eight times that to run a turbine) would likely smash it up in no time. If by a miracle it did run efficiently it would probably over speed and self destruct without a complex governor. This is pie in the sky!

Go look at boiler design. To get the energy out of fuel requires miles and miles of fine tubing all perfectly welded with welding rods, not seat springs, it isn't just a big kettle, hydraulic tanks simply wouldn't work.

use the air starter as a turbine? Better chance than the Apu for sure but again, where are the cast quantities of steam to come from? Not continuously rated, same problems with expecting a machine designed to work on air at one T & P to work with steam at another energy level.

It's just far too far-fetched and based on boys own enthusiasm and lack of any technical thinking. Sorry, it's like that guy in the Nairobi slum who built an "aeroplane". You can't Just make up high tech engineering without any training as you go along, trying to do that with something as crude and basic as a small aeroplane was self evidently doomed to ignominious failure. Trying the same with bodged gas turbines and a kettle is orders of magnitude more ambitious and with the greatest of respect you've demonstrated a number of times your complete lack of knowledge in both engineering and physics. This is too technical a subject to be tackled in this way without it descending into pure farce.

I think some of the suggestions you've been getting here are akin to bystanders chucking food over the cliff to encourage the Lemings...

[kenpimentel]

I think you have to remember this is a work of fiction, not a document telling people how to build these things. I think the standard should be "plausible" not "definitely doable". I also believe that things will work - but at an inefficient level. I'm not expecting them to jury-rig something with state-of-the-art efficiencies. To say that it is impossible to use a simple boiler to generate power flies in the face of Robert Fulton's efforts. The early steam designs were also inefficient, but as long as there is water and fuel, they can do useful work (and did).

I do thank you for challenging all of this. I'm trying to keep things in the plausible category. It's clear you think I've stepped over the line. If there is any way to help me get back to plausible in your mind, I'd appreciate it.

[lomapaseo]

I think the standard should be "plausible" not "definitely doable".

I have jury rigged B-17 superchargers for use as steam turbines by blocking off a 270 deg arc of blade/vanes and plumbing steam into whats left. Got the things to 20,000 RPM and about 100 hp.

Less steam and it would still work with the right nozzle area.

Let me loose in a wreckage field and I can propbably get something working.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

[kenpimentel]

Thanks, that's the spirit the book is intended for. Many books just make s*it up; I'm trying to avoid that with at least some research that keeps it grounded and credible.

I appreciate all the help and the criticism too. It forces me to be even more careful in my research.

[joy ride]

I have always loved tinkering with various bits and pieces and I love this site:

The Museum of RetroTechnology (http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/museum.htm)

I have little doubt that one or two resourceful people on an airliner could make good use of its resources to cobble together quite a few things mentioned on this site. Have a look, and I hope you might find something useful to your story!

As for the ditching/landing, there is the precedent of the BA 777 which crash landed at Heathrow after engine icing problems shut them down.

[kenpimentel]

That's an incredible site! I'm going to get lost there for awhile. I'm sure it will be useful at some point. Thanks for pointing it out. I guess the book is destined for a "steam-punk" phase. :)

[joy ride]

Glad you like it, I thought it might be worth a browse as your story seems to be based on improvised gadgetry and alternate ways of doing things.

My Dad is mentioned in the part about Speaking/Gosport Tubes, but I have no connection with the site apart from loving it!

[woptb]

Ken,
Keep it coming,the most interesting thread we've had ! One of the things about aircraft enginers/techs/mechs is that they are fixers with initiative,somtimes to our own detriment!
I did many years as a flying spanner and I used to carry my house on my back, in terms of tools.Carried a hacksaw+ spare blades and ,incidentally a hand drill - didn't always have access to pneumatic or electrical power for a drill (saved my bacon a few time!) and always carried a mulitimeter.
Suspension of disbelief is fine by me,plausability helps of course !
More power to you Ken,good luck,keep the questions coming and let us know when the book comes out !
Another thought,do pax life jackets still use salt water batteries ?
Also relatively easy to make salt water battery,plenty of electrolyte (salt water) and material to use as electrodes,you can get around low output by making a 'battery' of cells.

[Capot]

The point has been made that ditching directly (more or less) towards a beach so as to slide on to, and then come to a stop on, the beach is implausible because of the impossibility of judging the final descent and touchdown point to enable this to happen.

I suspect that the only plausible scenario is a very wide, very long, straight beach, with a very shallow slope seawards, and an approach angle to the beach of, say, 5%-15%. This would give a fair margin for error, with a reasonable chance of ending up out of the water, in between the water's edge and the top of the beach.

But finding that beach just when you need it for a forced landing, and then being able to position accurately for the approach and touchdown, would require huge amounts of luck.

But I don't fly B777s, and that may be a daft idea to anyone who does.

[cockney steve]

suppose the beach shelved....IE a sandy cove with a very shallow underwater slope,continuing up to the point where it transitions to flat earth..a slow approach may allow the plane to slide all or part way up the beach.....a bit faster and it goes over the hump and slaps down on to the earth, (breaking the back of the fuselage in the process.
A tropical downpour would firm-up the beach and lubricate it and the earth.

STIRLING Please, not Sterling,that's UK currency, engines can be hot air engines.....once constructed, sheet aluminium could be salvaged, shaped and burnished sufficiently to make mirrors to heatthe "hot" end. there are lots of absorbent materials aboard, fibreglass insulation, upholstery,etc to cover the "cold "end...again, panelling,etc could be used to form a sun-shelter over the "cold" end and funnel the prevailing wind, because you'd water-soak the absorbent wadding which would chill by evaporation.

[SMOC]

http://www.bloomberg.com/image/ickB1IVzCsOY.jpg

Plenty of cars can fit into lower cargo, and flying spanner tools can manually wind the cargo doors open assuming :uhoh: no structural damage. :}

[kenpimentel]

Hey people. I've been busy in other parts of the book, not related to aircraft disassembly. I'm now 90,000 words done, and I need to extract some weapons from the aircraft.

I've decided that crossbows are the simplest thing to pursue for a bunch of untrained PAX. The stock, bow will be made of wood along with the trigger mechanism. I could use other material from the plane if it made sense and wouldn't require excessive effort to extract rework.

I was wondering if the bolts (the arrows used in a crossbow) could be made out of stainless steel? Someone mentioned to me that the seats of an aircraft contain stainless steel rods? I don't know what diameter these are, or how long. My hope was that they were about 18" long and about 1/4" diameter. You'd sharpen the end of them using a stone and have a bolt. If each seat has a couple of these, then I have plenty of bolts.

If not bolts, then how about making steel tips to go on wood bolts? Are there things that might make great sharp tips with minor modification? There is plenty of hard, dense wood on this island. It would make decent shafts.

Tools available include a hand drill, a couple cordless drills, a single Dremel. Hacksaw with a couple spare blades, other basic tools. No lathe, grinding machines, forge (yet), or anything more sophisticated than hand tools.

Any help appreciated.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Ah, weapons, hobby interest !

A crossbow is a reasonably precise bit of machinery, needing reasonable manufacturing precision as well as storing enough energy to take your fingers off it if fails whilst cocked. That may be a plot device you can use ! You'd really not struggle if pulling any aeroplane apart to find control pushrods of one sort or another than could do a reasonable impression of a crossbow bolt. I doubt you'd find them in the seat.

The simplest weapon I know that is easy to manufacture and use is a spear. A spear, contrary to popular opinion, is in most variations not a throwing weapon. Basically it's a stick with a knife on the end of it, and the techniques of using a spear are very similar to those for a longsword. Historically people who weren't important enough to justify the significant expense of a sword, got a spear, which uses the minimum amount of expensive metal. There's plenty of history of effective hunting with spears - and they ARE NOT thrown. Typical length of a spear is 4-6 feet.

Knifes / daggers/ are easily cut and ground from bits of scrap metal - fighting with knives is a messy game, but they're an essential survival tool of course. A knife tied to the end of a stick is a spear! Between two people, attacking somebody with a knife takes little skill or fitness, defending against a knife effectively takes very considerable skill.


For a weapon, the next most straightforward improvised weapon would be a bola. Three weights, three bits of string / wire / rope, tied together.

After that would be a slingshot - easily made from any reasonable strong fabric, ammunition is stones.


I could teach you the basics of fighting with a spear in a few hours. Attacking somebody with a knife in 10 minutes, and defending yourself effectively against a knife in a few weeks.

Using a bola is very easy, and takes little skill, just a bit of thought and practice.

Using a slingshot is a matter of a few hours or days of practice, but is fairly intuitive.

It would take a lot of skill and time to make an effective crossbow.


Incidentally, making a bodgers lathe is pretty straightforward: http://www.greenwoodworker.co.uk/Archive.htm Where I live, up until maybe 60 years ago, people used to just go out into the woods with an axe, saw and some rope, and come back a at the end of the day loaded up with chairlegs.

G

[kenpimentel]

Thanks for the info. My problem is that the PAX will have to deal with people that wear plate armor, carry spears, swords, knives and crossbows and know how to use them. Somehow, the PAX have to survive at least one engagement without being totally slaughtered.

The PAX, at this point, have spent a few months learning to hunt with spears, knives and are familiar with them - if not fully experienced.

Luckily for the PAX, there is one grizzled Iraq veteran who can train them in the basics. But, they are realistic about what they can achieve with limited training (weeks, not months before they are attacked).

They have to use their advantages (the plane, technology, defending) to deal with an attack they know is coming.

They will be able to make gunpowder where they are, but they won't do that before they are attacked. They also won't be able to set up a distillery before being attacked. Of course, they do have some Jet A fuel left...

There are fairly simple wooden designs for a crossbow on the Internet. I'm not sure what else would be effective against plate armor. I think they could build 5-6 crossbows and using them, with other defensive means, could repel the attack. I like the idea of the bola, I hadn't thought of that.

BTW, I just thought of using the snubber that holds the overhead bins. Is that a dampened piston with a SS shaft going into a aluminum body or something? If I separate those parts, and use the SS shaft, do I have my bolt? There must be a lot of those on the plane.

[Mechta]

Having been certificating airliner galleys until recently (not Boeing though), I can hopefully shed a bit more light on the plumbing. It is designed to operate at 40psi, but is designed to take 125psi when being refilled and is static tested to 188psi. Ultimate burst pressure is supposedly 250psi, but they will take more... ;). All potable water hoses were PTFE lined and reinforced with stainless braiding, whilst waste hoses were reinforced silicone. Rigid pipes and unions were stainless steel.

The water heaters I used were four litres capacity, with a stainless steel reservoir. They have pressure relief valves and generally don't heat water above 88°C on electrical power due to the drop in water boiling temperature at 8000ft cabin altitude.

A B777 size aircraft could have easily have six or more galleys with plumbing for hot water boilers, beverage makers, coffee makers, espresso/cappuccino makers and steam ovens (Google 'airliner galley inserts').

If you need to get a higher pressure, wrap the boiler with steel wire. Look up 'flash steam' for high power steam systems with small boilers.

If you can get them out, the engines and airframe will contain thousands of bolts and studs from which tools and weapons could be made. Also, on the subject of weapons, if you have a hydraulic cylinder, some jet fuel and oxygen (bottled or generated) plus a means of making a spark, you can make one hell of a cannon!

With all the aerofoils or curved surfaces that are available (slats, flaps, control surfaces & bits of interior trim) why not build a wind turbine? You could make a peristaltic pump or motor out of a wheel and an inner tube (there must be a bicycle in most airliner holds) as some Scottish crofters did on a TV programme (The Great Egg Race).

BBC - Archive - The Great Egg Race - Cracking feats of engineering (http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/great_egg_race/)

A visit to an aircraft breakers would be a good idea to get an idea of what is available. Googling B777 suppliers will yield photos giving an idea of what is in its sub-assemblies.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I still find the crossbow an odd choice of weapon. A longbow is much easier to make if there's access to appropriate woods. and with some good training, more effective on every level (greater range, greater penetration, greater fire rate). The *only* advantage of a crossbow is that it can be operated by an untrained halfwit (or Frenchman, as they called them at Agincourt).

Swords, daggers, spears are effective against armour, because armour has gaps, and any such conflict occurs at close range. Whilst the tradition is much stronger in the east today, there are global traditions of martial arts designed for use against armed and armoured opponents. Classical Jiu Jitsu certainly does that, and here in Europe the texts that survive by Fiore, Ringeck, Silver - all describe such systems here. To a lesser extent, Philipino escrima does the same also - lesser because it's much more about dealing with bladed weapons than it is about dealing with armour.

Have you got a local western martial arts school, or traditional Jiu Jitsu dojo you can go and do a bit of learning from? In terms of your pax - in my experience at-least 1 in 20 of most populations have done significant martial arts training so a few JiuJitsuka of teaching standard, or an expert Escrimador isn't an unreasonable proposition. Neither needs any advanced engineering skill to manufacture weapons. Judo, if you were unaware, is just a sport derivative of Jiu Jitsu, and contains techniques perfectly valid against armour, although probably not against most weapons.



Incidentally, are you aware that the book you're writing already got published in 1874 under the title "The mysterious island". Not, in my opinion, Jules Verne's best book by a long way, but he was basically writing the same plot as you are by the sound of it.

G

[Mechta]

With regard to pressure vessels, the B777 has 14 tyres each pressurized to 200+psi. There's a fair bit of stored energy for you already.

If you filled the tyre with water, and were to rig up some means of passing hot air from a fire through the wheel hub, water in the tyre would eventually boil. Don't try this at home!

Any sealable metal, ceramic or hard plastic container filled with fuel and oxygen has the potential of making a land or claymore mine if you use a battery and a pressure switch to create a spark inside. Alternatively, you could trigger them remotely, as there is no shortage of wire in an airliner. Your Iraq veteran will have seen IEDs or been briefed on them to know what is needed.

If you can find where uni-directional carbon or glass fibre is used in the structure, you have potential longbow material, There are 10 tons of Carbon fibre in a B777, so some of it should be useful if you can cut and shape it.

This may be a useful resource for who supplies what for the B777:Boeing 777 - program supplier guide (http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=B777)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I don't know the 777 well enough, but it also wouldn't take much ingenuity to create a decent bang out of any magnesium alloy castings?

G

[kenpimentel]

In response to Mechta
re: tyres
That's a novel way to build a steam engine! Not sure how it could be modified to continuously supply steam. That is my ultimate goal. Maybe it is used to store steam energy from another source. But if it doesn't have a relief valve, then it will go kaboom if you're not careful.

re: IED
Thanks for reminding me to use the oxygen as an oxidizer for a more powerful explosion.

re: carbon fiber
Yes, I'm hoping some of the panels in the plane can lend themselves to things like bows or maybe a small catapult.

re: plumbing
Thanks for all the details! I've been wondering about that for a long time. I can see the elements exist for making some form of steam boiler and/or cannons/bombs.

In response to Genghis:
re: crossbow vs longbow:
Based on my research, the longbow, while much easier to make and more lethal at longer ranges, requires way to much training. The English were such good longbowmen because they had years and years of practice. The crossbow is the fastest, most lethal weapon at a distance of 10-20 yards that requires limited experience to shoot. Especially against armor. Sure, you can get lucky with a spear from that distance. BTW, as I mentioned spears are being used, I just want something more sophisticated.

re: martial arts
Yes, I fully expect that someone will be training the PAX in these skills. However, it takes time to learn them well enough to defend yourself successfully, but thanks for reminding me to mention it as part of the "plan" for the defense force.

re: plot
I haven't revealed much, so I can understand why you might think it related. But the island is not "mysterious" in any way shape or form. This isn't an episode of "Lost".

[kenpimentel]

If I have the pilot squawk 7600, what do they reach for? The CDU? Do they just tap some buttons on it and press "send" or something?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Basically yes. I don't know the specific cockpit, but 7600 and enter on something on the central console.

G

[kenpimentel]

Cool. Thanks for the fast reply.

[Genghis the Engineer]

http://images.flightstore.co.uk/images/products/zoom/1380969899-08429600.jpg

Looks to me that the transponder control is the small box just above the blank panel near the bottom on the right hand side. In which case, it's a case of dial each number in - marginally more time consuming. The range of numbers available for each digit is 0-7 (it's an octal numbering system). Something like this:-

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/eu4f1b14bc.png

Best guess on that unit - turn the bottom left knob to STBY, use the big middle knob to dial in the four digits, then back to XPDR, or more likely to the TA/RA (Traffic Advisory Resolution Advisory) setting which integrates it with TCAS (Terminal Collision Avoidance System).

Control units vary a little - here's a picture of the Garmin box in the aeroplane I was flying yesterday..

http://planefinder.net/about/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Scanner-300x97.png

That one, you just press the four numbers. But that's a GA unit, airliners tend to be more integrated and we don't fly with TCAS in most baby aeroplanes, whilst it's mandatory in airliners.

G

[kenpimentel]

I think I found it on the pedestal. You use a rotary knob to select the appropriate code:

Boeing 777: Air Traffic Control Transponder (ATC) & Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) (http://www.meriweather.com/flightdeck/777/ped/atc.html#)

Thanks for the replies.

[mutt]

something on the central console Yep the transponder.

The APU generator supplies 120 KVA electrical power at any altitude.
The left main fuel tank must contain a minimum of 950 pounds (430 kg) of fuel to start and operate the APU for one hour. The APU uses 675 lb (306 kg) of fuel for each hour of APU operation after the first hour. So your 1000 kgs of fuel isnt going to last long.

The RAT generator supplies 7.5 kva of ac power to the two center TRUs. The RAT GCU monitors and controls the output of the RAT. The TRUs change the ac power into 28v dc power It rotates at something like 4510 rpm and the blades are 105CM long.

So the RAT would be your best choice of power.

As for ditching close to a beach, i don't think that anyone would try this with the gear down!

[wiggy]

Genghis/kenpimental

Looks to me that the transponder control is the small box just above the blank panel near the bottom on the right hand side. In which case, it's a case of dial each number in

That's certainly where the controller sits but I'd point out that the exact choice of panel is a customer option - I certainly don't recognise the one in the flight deck overview image, and I don't recognise the one that kenpimental has provided a link to. All our 777s (200s and 300s) have a different panel design, they have a small keyboard for number entry, so you punch the code in rather than dial and FWIW on ours there's no need to select STBY before changing code.

[mutt]

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/421/18333178679_0571a4af95_z.jpg

This model transponder is in our 1997 era -200's

[kenpimentel]

Now that I have more time, I've gone back to my book and I'm doing a major rewrite for various reasons. I wonder if some of those that helped me in the past are still able to do so. As a reminder, I'm writing a book on an American Airlines 777-200ER that survives a ditching and winds up on a beach. Most of the crew survive and the plane is in two pieces (so never flying again), but there were no major fires. There is a "flying spanner" on board, who knows what parts of the 777 can be used for different solutions to survival problems. This is a work of alternate history and does involve a trip to the past - so the island is basically uninhabited and there are no modern support systems (no rescue teams, no satellites, no comms - other than what they can create). The people are on their own - with a 777 to dismember and whatever is in cargo/luggage.

Questions:
1) Are there more than one Auxiliary Survival Kit? Reference (https://eamworldwide.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/EAM_Kits_ASK1_SRAK20.pdf) on a 777?
2) I need to create a water distiller, I’m wondering if the AC units on the plane could function as such. I would remove the evaporation coils (or grid?) and pipe steam through it while immersed in colder water.

thanks!
ken

[wiggy]

Are there more than one Auxiliary Survival Kit?

That might well be a customer option..FWIW we carry 8 "survival packs", basically one for each slideraft..and ours are not made by EAM, last time I looked they were an RFD Beaufort product

[kenpimentel]

That might well be a customer option..FWIW we carry 8 "survival packs", basically one for each slideraft..and ours are not made by EAM, last time I looked they were an RFD Beaufort product

OK. So you just have the ones for each slide/raft. I think I can pretend that American has a couple auxiliary survival kits on this flight.

Thanks for the response!

[NutLoose]

Some pilots watches also contain an ELT BTW

https://www.whartongoldsmith.com/watches-c2/emergency-watch-titanium-with-cobra-yellow-dial-p2876/s12797?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=breitling-emergency-watch-with-personal-locator-beacon-in-cobra-yello&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&cid=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0seHk67K6gIVW-ztCh3C9wLOEAQYASABEgKBw_D_BwE

[NutLoose]

You can distill water with a solar still made from plastic sheet etc, see

https://www.google.com/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=distilling+water+with+plastic+sheet&client=firefox-b-d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-xbnIrsrqAhVbilwKHUfHAWsQsAR6BAgFEAE&biw=1280&bih=910


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ2uU0IsZcM

[kenpimentel]

re: watch with PLB
Didn't have any idea they could squeeze a 121Mhz beacon into something that small!

re: solar still
I think with 250 people to get 1/2G of water per day (minimum for drinking), I have to come up with something larger scale than a solar still. That's why I'm thinking of "industrializing" using the boiler to more aggressively produce steam from salt-water that is then condensed. I realize there are issues with removing the brine from the boiler, but I think if a pinhole is pulling the brine out the bottom while fresh seawater goes in the top, it will work.

[kenpimentel]

I was hoping there is something on the 777 that could be easily used as a simple personal "shield". For example, if there was a removable seat cushion that had some padding/thickness that could absorb a hit with a club. The shield doesn't have to be that effective, just better than nothing. My research suggests that the seat cushions are not useable for this purpose (they don't just pop off). For my story, I'm looking for something quick to use, not something that takes a while to manufacture/assemble, but I probably could use both options in my story - a "quick" better than nothing shield, and a "if you took the time to do this" shield.

thanks!

[Webby737]

I've never worked the cabin of a 777 but speaking in general about the economy class seats used in most commercial aircraft.

The seat base cushions are normally only held in place by a couple of strips of velcro so these can be pulled off the seat relatively easily.
The seat backs are a different matter, often requiring removal of the seat back cover before being able to remove the foam.

[kenpimentel]

I've never worked the cabin of a 777 but speaking in general about the economy class seats used in most commercial aircraft.

The seat base cushions are normally only held in place by a couple of strips of velcro so these can be pulled off the seat relatively easily.
The seat backs are a different matter, often requiring removal of the seat back cover before being able to remove the foam.

Perfect! That matches my description well of using the seat base cushions. Thanks so much!

[kenpimentel]

Does a 777 carry any form of stretcher? My research suggests that it doesn't.

Can you imagine how you'd scavenge a 777 to make a few stretchers? Are there some long "rods" that could be easily removed? It could be a flat panel about 6' long that 4 people could carry. Basic tools are available (what you'd expect to find in a flight technician's tool bag/bog). It has to be relatively straightforward to do, it can't require all day to do it. There are trees a few miles away from the crash site, so it might be easiest to cut branches and fashion something.

[Tobikan Judan]

Does a 777 carry any form of stretcher? My research suggests that it doesn't.

Can you imagine how you'd scavenge a 777 to make a few stretchers? Are there some long "rods" that could be easily removed? It could be a flat panel about 6' long that 4 people could carry. Basic tools are available (what you'd expect to find in a flight technician's tool bag/bog). It has to be relatively straightforward to do, it can't require all day to do it. There are trees a few miles away from the crash site, so it might be easiest to cut branches and fashion something.


Cargo bay nets?

[kenpimentel]

Of course! I have to remember those cargo nets. They could be used lots of different ways.

Thanks!

[MurphyWasRight]

I was hoping there is something on the 777 that could be easily used as a simple personal "shield". For example, if there was a removable seat cushion that had some padding/thickness that could absorb a hit with a club. The shield doesn't have to be that effective, just better than nothing. My research suggests that the seat cushions are not useable for this purpose (they don't just pop off). For my story, I'm looking for something quick to use, not something that takes a while to manufacture/assemble, but I probably could use both options in my story - a "quick" better than nothing shield, and a "if you took the time to do this" shield.

thanks!
For both shields and stretchers don't forget the overhead luggage bin doors. I believe they are relatively light weight yet able to absorb/deflect blows. Minor effort to remove them given the right tools. I am not an AME so no direct experience other than occasionaly whacking my head on partially opened ones,

Lavatory and cockpit doors might also be stretcher material.

The seat bottom pans and backs might be useful for shields, they certainly seem hard enough on a cross country trip in economy given the 'unuseable' cushions you mentioned.

Some other items you may already have in mind:

Consider using the innermost window element to create face shields, some heat will probably allow it to be formed.
Make sure they save all the seat belts, need something to attach shields and obviously other uses as well.

The seat tracks might be removable to yield relatively long chunks of metal. Good 'erector set' element for building things. Possibly similar but larger elements in cargo hold.

Lots of copper, both in wiring and motor/generator windings.

The magnetron in the microwaves have a couple of powerful donut shaped magnets useful for quick release attachments. The empty microwave makes a good small everything proof storage locker.

The floor panels may be removable, source of strong flat surfaces, no idea what size they are. Easier than cutting fuselage for raw metal.

One time O2 source for "enhanced combustion" will be the passenger O2 generators, about 15 minutes as I recall, no idea on raw flow rate.

Not sure vintage of weather radar, if older it may have a parabolic reflector and motorized gimbals for scanning, cover it with tinfoil to create solar oven.

[kenpimentel]

Those are really good suggestions, you should see some of them in the book! :)
thanks

[kenpimentel]

Copyright 2020, Ken Pimentel

I thought I'd share the first few scenes on the 777:Part One: New World

Chapter One

A stutter of light pierces the cabin, fracturing the composure of all 260 passengers onboard American Airlines Flight 67 bound for San Juan, Puerto Rico. For an instant, reality is jagged and discontinuous, like an old film played back at the wrong frame rate.

Then it’s gone. The seamless flow of time reasserts itself. Conversations resume amidst puzzled looks. But nothing will be the same.

On the flight deck, Sam Wells sits wide-eyed and blinking, trying to clear fragmented after-images. A buzzer startles him. The Flight Management Computer (FMC) displays “GPS Data Lost”. A half-second later, the autopilot disconnects. Reflexively, he hooks it back up.

Worried it was a lightning strike from the storm they thought they left behind, he scans the myriad dials and displays for other surprises. In all his years flying 777s he’s never seen the GPS fail. Still, losing it is an inconvenience - they can safely navigate with the plane’s inertial guidance system.

Glancing at the radar display, he frowns. A look out the flight deck window confirms the radar. He presses the PA button, “First Officer Kang, please return to the flight deck.” He wants someone to validate what he’s seeing – and his sanity.

#

When the flicker of light and disorientation hits, Linda Kang is standing in front of the first class lavatory mirror washing her hands. Feeling faint, she steadies herself. “What was that?”

Sam’s announcement surprises her. Touching the brim of her American Airlines cap, she lowers it a fraction. Her long, glossy-black hair, neatly curled in a bun, is secured by her cap, but strands escape to frame her oval face. She frowns, her mirror-twin sharing her concern. Pulling open the door, she heads back to the flight deck.

Moving forwards, she nods to Nicky Gonzalez, the senior flight attendant, who removes the protective barricade that blocks other passengers from using the lavatory. Ever since 9/11, a pilot can only leave the flight deck to use the bathroom – and even then, the door has to be protected from entry by a barricade.

Before she passes into the flight deck, Nicky hands Linda a cup of black coffee from Sam’s special stock. Without continual refreshes, he gets a little cranky.

Nicky asks, “Did you see that flash? Did we get hit by lightning? I’ve never seen anything like it.”

Linda can see Nicky’s concern. Given her 33 years with American, triple Linda’s, she’s had opportunity to pretty much see everything. Nicky’s known as “Mom” to the crew because of her indefatigable efforts to monitor their well being and enforce sleep schedules. Having lost her own mother as a teenager, Linda accepts the substitute.

“I don’t know what it was, but Sam will. I wouldn’t worry, I’m sure we’re OK.” Holding Sam’s coffee, Linda steps into the flight deck and locks the door behind her.

As she squeezes into her seat and hands Sam his coffee, he nods towards the flight deck window and asks in his Texas drawl, “Notice anything missing?”

“What am I looking for?” She searches the skies.

He’s silent.

“Where’s the storm? Are we still flying southeast?” She glances at the instruments and answers her own question, “Guess so. OK, what’s going on?”

He shrugs. “Damned if I know. First, there was a flash, then the GPS stopped working. After that, the radar wasn’t showing the storm, so I looked outside. The storm’s just gone. I know that makes me sound nuttier than a pecan pie. Decided I wanted a second opinion.”

Linda scans the skies again, wondering how a massive storm could evaporate so quickly. She shakes her head. “Any other problems?”

“Other than GPS, everything seems fine. Maybe it was lightning, so might see other issues. Why don’t you check with Bermuda Air Traffic Control? They’re closest to us, maybe they know something.”

She keys in the frequency. “Bermuda, this is American 6-7, over?” She waits a moment and then repeats herself. Sibilant static fills the flight deck.

Sam verifies her frequency and radio settings, “That’s odd. Didn’t we just talk to them fifteen minutes ago? Try some other ATCs.”

She looks up frequencies and repeats the process - nothing but static. “Maybe the transmitter’s broken?”

“Seems unlikely.” Sam visualizes all the communication systems carried on the 777. “Since the satellite phone won’t work without GPS, try sending a message using the data link to let Bermuda ATC know our situation.”

“Sure, just a sec…” She turns to the data link display, types her message and presses, “send”. When nothing happens, she studies the display and notices an error code. She looks up the code. “Odd, it says we’re not in range of a satellite. I thought this worked world-wide?”

“We lost the data link too? Let me try. Christ, can’t believe this …” he trails off, playing with the gear. The data link stubbornly insists there aren’t any satellites. “Let’s check all the VHF radios. Maybe we can’t transmit, but we should hear someone. Also try the programmed channels, maybe there’s a HAM operator out there.”

As Linda reaches for the VHF panel, Sam asks, “By the way, did you try Long Distance Operations Control?”

She nods, checking the frequencies, listening for any man-made sound. Within minutes, she turns to him and shakes her head.

“How is it all the VHF radios aren’t working? That’s going to make the landing a lot more complicated.” Remembering procedures he adds, “Squawk 7600 to let everyone know we’ve got comm issues.”

Reaching down to the transponder control panel on the pedestal next to her she sends the 7600 code. Now, anyone receiving their transponder signal will know their communications have failed. Both pilots and traffic controllers have detailed processes to follow in such cases.

Sipping his coffee, Sam summarizes their situation, “OK, we’re two hours out of Newark. In a couple hours we’ll land at San Juan and an aircraft technician can figure out what’s wrong. We’re not the first to get hit by lightning and we won’t be the last.”

Linda takes her cues from Sam. With twenty-five years’ experience, he’s well known and liked within the tight community working the San Juan route. If he isn’t panicking, there isn’t any reason for her. Still, there’s no telling what other problems are lurking to disrupt the complicated process of landing the big plane.

Realizing there isn’t much more he can do for the next hour, Sam reaches up and stretches his six-foot-three frame. There’s barely room for the effort in the cramped cockpit. Patting his rounded belly he says to Linda, “I blame you! You’d better stop bringing jelly doughnuts or I’m gonna spread out like a cold supper.” At seventeen, Sam had been a 250-pound linebacker at Texas A&M, but now at 52, he’s long since lost all his hair and most of his conditioning – the weight, well, he’d kept that.

Linda smiles, focusing on the view out the window. She enjoys flying with Sam, he reminds her of her dad in a way. She adjusts her seat higher – she’s only a little over five feet tall and always has trouble getting the seat the way she likes it. She wishes she could adjust her rounded shape as easily. After trying every imaginable diet, she’s decided she’ll have to wait for the right guy, one who can love a chunky Korean princess. It’s been a long wait so far.

After another fruitless test of the radios, Linda asks, “Hey, how’s Kathy doing?”

Years ago, when Sam started the San Juan route, it led to a chance meeting in Newark with a slender, dark-haired woman waiting for coffee. When Kathy accidentally dropped her portfolio of architecture designs, he naturally helped pick them up. That chance meeting turned into a march down the aisle and eventually a daughter, Kristen.

It had all been so perfect for so long, but when Kathy contracted Lyme disease, things started unraveling. Now he and Kristen deal with the complications on a daily basis – when he’s home.

“She’s having another flare-up, I tried to find someone else to fly for me, but you know how it is on short notice. Luckily, I’ll be back tomorrow and have a few days off.”

“Are you going to take the early retirement offer?”

“The girls want me to, but here I am – flying again. Kathy used to manage all the finance and household crap. But now it’s too much for her and I guess I need to step up. Kristen’s pretty upset, there were tears when I left. Might be asking too much from her, she’s only just turned eighteen. But they don’t understand, flying’s all I ever wanted to do.”

Linda shares the same compulsion; she can’t imagine not ever flying again. “Your doctor prescribes a margarita, let’s grab one at the hotel. I know I’m going to need one - this might even be a two-margarita flight.”

On cue, the plane shakes hard for an instant before continuing peacefully.

[kenpimentel]

Question: I am setting fire to the tail of the 777 (row 40 aft) for plot purposes. This part has separated from the main body. Is there anything obvious that would have enough explosion to knock someone down about 20' from the tail? It could be some pressurized cylinder, it doesn't necessarily have to be explosive in nature. As long as I can get some fragments whizzing outwards to injure someone, that is fine. AFAIK, there isn't anything quite like this in the tail section?

[FlightDetent]

non T7 rated:

The pressure cylinders installed that propel the aspirator for the inflatable emergency slide. For a work of fiction, as in the real life those are certified for crash conditions. Whether or not for overheat in a blaze I dare not to speculate.

Alternatively, a tyre burst will kill and even down a plane, that is unfortunately proven. Perhaps a separated MLG wheel lies beneath the torn-off tail? Sounds plausible to me. https://images.app.goo.gl/y3M6CJRVjyKdqUdW7 Extended gears are engineered to break away in heavy cash they say.

[kenpimentel]

Thanks, I'll investigate those ideas some more.

[kenpimentel]

I found that some 777 have optional O2 tanks for supplying PAX masks. If I mix that with some spilled fuel from the APU feed, maybe that combo would go "boom" enough. I know that the fuel on the plane is more like kerosene - but mix it with some O2 and I would guess it gets a bit more violent. I found a "Flammables" document on 777 for emergency responders - good document to show where interesting things are.

[MAC 40612]

I've just found this thread

Oxygen cylinders approximately 13-16 [depending on seating configuration] all located in the rear freight bay right hand side wall. One crew oxygen cylinder located in the left hand crawl-way under the floor at the front on the aircraft.

With regards to the transponders and such like. Only the selector panels for these and communications are in the flight deck. All the actual transmitters/transceivers are located remotely below the floor in the MEC [MainElectronics Centre] so all the wiring would need to be intact between the head end [selector units] and the actual transceivers for them to work

With regards to making stretchers. Most Boeing 777s I've worked on have crew rest areas for flight crew and sometimes also cabin crew located up a staircase in the upper part of the fuselage. The flight crew rest area tends to have at least two beds, while the cabin crew rest area has about eight beds. All of which could be re-purposed into stretchers.

Economy [Coach] class seat squabs [the seat base] are all normally easily removable, they are only held down to the seat with velcro fastening. Only seats in Business/First tend to have seat cushions that are harder to remove.

Modern aircraft beverage makers only have very small boilers [typically enough to make a couple of pots of coffee/tea] before they need to refill/reboil.

[N707ZS]

How about an item of passenger hand luggage with a big rechargeable battery. I saw a film clip last week of explosions in a recycling plant and a couple of the explosions would get a person moving, perhaps not by force from the explosion.

[kenpimentel]

How about an item of passenger hand luggage with a big rechargeable battery. I saw a film clip last week of explosions in a recycling plant and a couple of the explosions would get a person moving, perhaps not by force from the explosion.

That's a good idea! I can certainly use it as an accelerant.

MAC 40612 Thanks for the locations of O2 tank and other suggestions.

[kenpimentel]

When you get an error code on the Data Link, where do you look up the code? Or, does the Data Link give you a more verbose error code?

[MAC 40612]

Are you talking about a SATCOM datalink? If so then you normally just get messages like "Datalink lost" or "No SATCOM" as that is all the pilots need to know. Specific reasons for SATCOM data failure are only normally gleaned by looking at the MAT [Maintenance Access Terminal] which is located on the rear right-hand side of the flight deck [behind where the co-pilot sits] This is the access point that a ground engineer uses to look for any fault history, existing faults, present leg faults or carry out system tests, to see if a fault is present of has been cleared after maintenance. It runs on Windows XP :eek:

[kenpimentel]

That's what I needed to know. Thanks!

BTW, is the MAT equipped with a keyboard, display and mouse/trackball/pad?

[MAC 40612]

That's what I needed to know. Thanks!

BTW, is the MAT equipped with a keyboard, display and mouse/trackball/pad?

It varies on the age of the Boeing 777. Early -200 series had keyboard that stowed away in a slot underneath the screen and a "curly" telephone type extension cable that meant you could place the keyboard in a comfortable condition for typing. As well as the keyboard, there was also a trackball type arrangement with two buttons adjacent to the screen. Later models had dispensed with the trackball and had a pad [like on a laptop] but these were always a bit of a pain as weren't as robust as the old style trackball. They also had a Floppy disk drive for updating software!

Later -300 series versions had a touchscreen

Some airlines also took up the option to have a second MAT [Maintenance Access Terminal] down in the MEC [Main electronics Centre] as some ground tests needed action to be carried out in the MEC area and it meant one person could do the task as they had the MAT downstairs with them. The MAT in the MEC was basically a rugged Laptop in a steel casing that you connected into the aircraft systems downstairs in the MEC via an umbilical cord] which replicated the MAT up in the flight deck. Note the MAT in the MEC was only powered up after a selector switch on the pilots overhead panel was selected on.

With regards to the MAT screen early -200 had a CRT type screen. Later -200 and -300 had LCD/LED type screen.

The later 300 series had a touchscreen MAT. The attached pdf file shows the later touchscreen type MAT.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/507x389/image_2020_11_13_144301_acf7bee274d0ca813cdc2adfbc4a9e6efcad d322.png
Early 200 series MAT. Keyboard stowed under flap underneath screen.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/689x570/image_2020_11_13_144525_4f2699981e44b7e70e74b342ff94b444291e 77b6.png
Portable MAT in the MEC area.

[kenpimentel]

That's handy to know! I'm sure another computer will be useful somehow. Though the PAX do have laptops, so I'm not too dependent on it.

[kenpimentel]

Couple questions:
1) Does the IRS/IRU feed a chart display in the cockpit? Or, does it just give lat/long? If it feeds a display/readout, does it have a name?
2) If you needed steel cable (sort of around 1-3mm) is there any of that in the plane? If so, about how long would it be and how easy would it to be extract?

[MAC 40612]

Couple questions:
1) Does the IRS/IRU feed a chart display in the cockpit? Or, does it just give lat/long? If it feeds a display/readout, does it have a name?
2) If you needed steel cable (sort of around 1-3mm) is there any of that in the plane? If so, about how long would it be and how easy would it to be extract?

The standard Boeing 777 layout is six CRT/LCD type screens. The two centre screens are used for Engine parameters and warnings and the bottom one of these two is normally used on the ground by the engineers [in fact in flight many flight crews fly with the lower centre screen off]

The two screens of each of the Captain and First officer's side are mirror images with the outer normally being the PFD [Primary flight Display] and the inner being the ND [Navigational Display] I say normally, as the thing about modern airliners like the Boeing 777 is that the screens can be switched to any of the displays either manually or in the event of a failure, screen switching takes place. The ND [Navigational display] gives you a "moving map" type display


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1270x741/image_2020_11_24_233300_40663510c2de1b3b1a97255d34cf7c3e5f07 a049.png

With regards to steel cables you can still find some below the floor in underneath the flight deck from underneath the control column as Boeing didn't go to a completely FBW system until the 787..

[kenpimentel]

As usual, much thanks for the detail. Just trying to keep the story as real as possible.

[kenpimentel]

My latest challenge is this:
- 777 has belly landed on a saltpan (wheels up)
- slides have deployed
- The plane rests on it's fuselage, so the bottom of the cabin door is 8' feet or so above the saltpan

Question: how do I get back into the plane? I'd like to move injured people into first-class to use the reclining seats. I don't see over-wing exits, so can't use that method.

- I could go in through a cargo door, but I don't know if there is a way to go up from there
- I could make a ladder out of local wood - but not easy for injured that way

[FlightDetent]

landed on a saltpan (wheels up) why wheels up? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ivH7tLiFLY

Admittedly I have no immediate ideas about the challenge proposed, not to mention making it worse. Oh, maybe this: On my last Emergency and Safety Equipment Training, we were shown how to and then tasked to climb up the slides back inside the airframe - in order to collect supplies and medical equipment.

[MAC 40612]

My latest challenge is this:
- 777 has belly landed on a saltpan (wheels up)
- slides have deployed
- The plane rests on it's fuselage, so the bottom of the cabin door is 8' feet or so above the saltpan

Question: how do I get back into the plane? I'd like to move injured people into first-class to use the reclining seats. I don't see over-wing exits, so can't use that method.

- I could go in through a cargo door, but I don't know if there is a way to go up from there
- I could make a ladder out of local wood - but not easy for injured that way

Lots of problems here...

You cannot open the cargo door without aircraft power [as it is electrically driven - both the door locks and the opening mechanism]

Even if you did get into the forward freight bay there is not an easy way up to the main deck, as there will be cargo pallets in the freight bay. Even if the freight bay were empty there is only a narrow door on the forward l/hand side that gets you into the MEC [Main Electronics Centre] and from there you need to open a hatch above you and climb a small ladder to get onto the passenger deck. Not suitable for transporting anyone injured. Before you get excited about the mention of a ladder it is only a three rung ladder [probably only a few few long]

Virtually every airline that I can think of business and first class reclining seats are all electrically powered. so not a lot of use without aircraft power, as you would not be able to make them into flat beds.

[kenpimentel]

re: landing
My research says that a 777 requires reinforced concrete to land on. It's 150 tons of plane. I'm not sure how heavy those other airplanes are landing on grass in the video.
As I understand things, the ACN of a 777-200ER is roughly 82 (depending on how loaded)
The PCN of an asphalt runway can be 30 (Georgetown International in Bahamas)
The PCN should be larger than the ACN if you want to land without damaging the runway
I have no idea what the PCN of a grass/gravel is, but I'm assuming it is much lower than asphalt
According to the data I found, single tire pressure is 1.5Mpascals of main landing gear just resting on a rigid surface. I don't know what the dynamic load would be, but significantly more than that.

So, to avoid the risk of the wheels digging in/breaking off, I have the plane ditching in shallow water (8') and driving up onto the saltpan.

Re: climbing back into the cabin
That's going to force a bunch of rewrites to fix it. I think they'll have to build a wooden ladder to get back up. Or pile the luggage in a mound? Ugh. Climbing the slide is workable for a few sturdy types.

Re: electric seats
Well, since there is no way to get the injured back up there, I guess the problem is solved...

Thanks again. Had wished for answers more aligned with my writing. :)

[kenpimentel]

Question: The wifi system will no longer work because all satellites will be missing. Is the error generated something the Captain/FO would be aware of or deal with? Or, are the attendants the ones to discover the error? Would there be an error code?

[kenpimentel]

re: climbing back into the cabin
- current thought is setup up a rope ladder or cargo net on the slide to climb up
- could make something relatively simple and slide the injured people back up and into the plane - the slide won't be angled that much because no landing gear - so roughly 50% less angle than what it is designed for.

re: seats
If there is no way to mechanically force the seats, then that is a problem. I don't suppose the 12V backup system could be used to briefly restore power to the seats? That shouldn't have been damaged. I just don't know if that power is available to the seats or only to other critical systems.

[N707ZS]

re: climbing back into the cabin
- current thought is setup up a rope ladder or cargo net on the slide to climb up.
Just a thought, unless the plane split on landing, how much access will you have to the cargo area if the doors are closed to obtain nets and luggage.

[kenpimentel]

Just a thought, unless the plane split on landing, how much access will you have to the cargo area if the doors are closed to obtain nets and luggage.

According to a manual I found, the 777 has backup battery power to operate the cargo hatches in the case of main power failure?

[MurphyWasRight]

According to a manual I found, the 777 has backup battery power to operate the cargo hatches in the case of main power failure?
The concern might be that the cargo doors would be blocked by belly landing, guess you could dig a pit around one if that is an issue.

You might be able to manually activate the seats by removing motors to spin shafts by hand. Alternate would be direct connect a battery to motors in case the seat as a unit does not power up from available power.

I think that the passenger list might be a significant factor in having odds and ends that you need:

3 or 4 parties going to a big wedding, bringing gifts with them, this can cover a lot of things that people normally would not have with them such as high quality knives etc.

One of the guests has COPD and is oxygen dependant so will have a portable oxygen concentrator on board plus a larger backup unit as luggage.
The larger unit has a high pressure pump to refill portable O2 tanks.
Given power these can produce moderate amounts (~10l/minute) of O2 for extended periods.
To bad that person has to perish in the crash so no moral dilemma hijacking the equipment.

A couple bringing their own gear for scuba diving, dive lights, (empty) high pressure tanks, spears and knives.

Two or three open source computer geeks returning from a conference, this provides expertise and SW needed to deal with Windows license expiring rendering computers useless.
Actually just had this happen to me on an old laptop that could no longer access a former employers system to verify certificates.

and others as required...

[kenpimentel]

re: cargo doors
The aft tail (at row 40) is separated and open. Is it true if you can get into one cargo bay, you can get into the others? I also think one side of the airplane can be higher than the other and the cargo bays easily cleared.

re: seats
Not sure it is worth the effort of using them if they are complex to lay out without power

re: cargo/passenger luggage
Thanks for suggestions, I do have similar items listed on inventory and both technogeeks, chemists and even an engineer from Colt.

[boguing]

Apologies for not having read every post, but even if the engines are still attached I think it would be easier to get people up onto the wing via the engine and thence through the over wing exits?

[kenpimentel]

re: Over-wing exits
Are there over-wing exits on a 777-200? I'm struggling to confirm that - it would make things easier for me. I think they exist on a 777-300. I may have to convert my story to use a 777-300 only because of this. I've written it assuming there were over wing exits, but doesn't look like it on the 777-200.

[boguing]

Drat, doesn't look like -200s do have them. This is another example of why I'd never make a good spotter.

[N707ZS]

If you look here the BA ones are on the trailing edge.

boeing 777-200 seat map - Google Search (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=boeing+777-200+seat+map&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=0AN3yR1A6gxRhM%252CsrtiqzheZzOOfM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kScrL3DUk6SCgnep5AICFtxMdTfbg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiK1Oe8_LntAhU7QkEAHYyzAaUQ9QF6BAgIEAE&biw=1280&bih=881#imgrc=1QnV5PM3KgzY1M)

[MAC 40612]

re: cargo doors
The aft tail (at row 40) is separated and open. Is it true if you can get into one cargo bay, you can get into the others? I also think one side of the airplane can be higher than the other and the cargo bays easily cleared.

No the rear cargo and the forward cargo are completely separate. There is the large box section containing the main [centre] fuel tank separating them.

both forward and rear cargo bays have cargo loaded onto ULD pallets/containers so not easy to move and most would probably still be in place as the containers/pallets are locked into floor rails that stop the cargo moving about. Also at the rear of the rear cargo bay is a sloping area called the bulk cargo. This is where loose cargo is typically loaded and just held down under netting, so bank on that breing scattered everywhere.

Cargo bays are typically horrible places to try and walk anyway, even as an able bodied person, I've lost count of how many engineers I've seen have a fall in a cargo bay over the years and get injured. I've attached a photo of a typical Boeing cargo bay

Also I've attached a photo showing how narrow access is from the forward cargo bay to the area you would need to get to that would allow you access to the main passenger deck via the [not very large] access hatch, again not really suited to getting injured people through.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1506x669/image_2020_12_09_202032_fc22ea77497f806d5f58a8ffa2d8e92dc3f7 23b6.png
[i]Typical Boeing wide body aircraft cargo bay
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/630x813/image_2020_12_09_202525_205be5af9d0be21eaa018f9974d174cc3ee9 7e60.png
This is what I meant about limited access from cargo bay to main deck. Where I've drawn the arrow from is the access from cargo into the electronics bay and where I've drawn the arrow upwards is where you would need to get people up and through to get to the main passenger cabin.

[MAC 40612]

Question: The wifi system will no longer work because all satellites will be missing. Is the error generated something the Captain/FO would be aware of or deal with? Or, are the attendants the ones to discover the error? Would there be an error code?

WI-FI errors/system failures are not normally shown as any sort of error message in the flight deck, it would be something the senior cabin crew member would see on the WI-FI system screen, that they would then raise a defect in the cabin log for an engineer to look at the next time the aircraft was on the ground. What you have to remember is that virtually all WI-FI systems on aircraft have been added to the aircraft in recent years as an additional system. The only thing the pilot ha any control over is the ability to switch the system off from the flight deck.

[MAC 40612]

According to a manual I found, the 777 has backup battery power to operate the cargo hatches in the case of main power failure?

That is or course, providing the aircraft battery stays intact, the main battery is a large heavy item [70-80 lb NiCad battery] that is bolted to the electronic bay floor but with an impact, the chances of it [and all the associated control wiring to control the cargo doors] being intact would be very unlikely

I don't want it to sound like I'm being negative with every scenario you come up with but if you are trying to keep it as realistic as possible, I'm just pointing out some likely problems.

I've seen far too many films and read far too many books where the aviation parts are laughable....

[Faolan]

Hi, I'm writing a book of fiction that involves a slightly damaged 777 that landed on a primitive island. I've been lucky to be in contact with a 777 pilot to get his input, but there are a lot of technical questions he doesn't know. Hopefully, some of you experts will answer my questions.

Appropriate title for an aircraft engineer?
One of the PAX is on the 777 in order to fix a 757 that is broken elsewhere. What is this person's correct title? Is it "Aircraft Engineer"? Or, Maintenance Engineer or something else? I'm assuming the person is about 35 years old and would be fairly knowledgeable regarding all the plane's systems.

Emergency radios on the raft - can you talk with them?
I know each raft has a radio set to 121.5Mhz, the question is if they just emit a homing signal or if you can talk to anyone else using one of these?

Galley hot water boiler
I'd like to use the hot water boiler as a pressure vessel to generate steam. My question is how large are these boilers (gallons) and how many a 777 is likely to have.

Cabin printer, cockpit printers
Are these regular 8.5 x 11 inkjet printers? Or dot-matrix? Or what? They would be valuable, at least until their ink ran out. Are supplies typically carried on board?

thanks!

Well, I think I can answer at least one question, I'm just a student, but if you are talking about someone who works on aircraft the title would be Aircraft Maintenance Technician, otherwise the person designing an aircraft would be an engineer. Also, the Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELT) that are activated in the even of a crash, they are usually situated in the aft section of a plane, and I think that is what you are talking about. Without a mic, and some know how, you would not be able to talk through the ELT, it just sends out a signal. Newer ones operate at 406MHz and can be paired with the aircraft's GPS. The older ones, you'd have to have someone fly over you to be heard.
I don't know about that other stuff.