View Full Version : Was the Lightning really THAT good ?
Wander00
26th Jul 2016, 07:49
Was that the pic that became an Athena type poster?
NickB
26th Jul 2016, 11:23
I believe that pic was taken from a Harrier, but stand to be corrected.
I've also heard it said that Mike Thompson was piloting the Lightning, but heard others say that isn't correct...
Wander00
26th Jul 2016, 11:51
NickB - that is where I was headed - it was certainly the lovely MT in the Athena poster
NickB
26th Jul 2016, 12:02
Wander00 - for the life of me, I cannot remember what the Athena Lightning poster looked like! Just done an eBay search which didn't help either!
Could you post the image if you have one (unlikely) or could find on t'internet (more likely)?
Thanks :ok:
Wander00
26th Jul 2016, 13:59
Nick -
This link, 6th row down, w from left - I think its the same pic cropped slightly differently, but it is about 33 years ago!
W
NickB
26th Jul 2016, 15:01
Sorry Wander00 - I'm not seeing the link you refer to!
Could you try again pls?
Wander00
26th Jul 2016, 15:31
It would of course help if I had included it - at the time I was being bombarded by gite guests who wanted me to find them a dive school - NOW!
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=english+electric+lightning+vertical+climb&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=620&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=0ahUKEwiQu_Pno5HOAhWBGT4KHdItBSoQ7AkIQA
Photo is by Richard Cooke
RICHARD COOKE | Aircraft Photographs (http://www.massoss.com/Richard-Cooke/aircraft-galleries.php?name=RAF%20Lightning)
Wander00
27th Jul 2016, 08:13
That will be the one
Mogwi
27th Jul 2016, 17:00
I have nothing but admiration for WIWOLs but remember a Lightning det to VL in the 80s, where we did a 2 SHAR v 2 Lightning bundle west of the Amber way until they ran out of gas, then waited for the next pair and fought them out of gas before doing a quick 1 v 1 and returning for some whacky VSTOL.
Next day I took one of them up in the T4 and demonstrated the low-weight ramp launch to immediate VL. I think he forgot to breath but at least he didn't need to change his flying suit!
exMudmover
29th Jul 2016, 18:23
NickB
I believe that pic was taken from a Harrier, but stand to be corrected.
I've also heard it said that Mike Thompson was piloting the Lightning, but heard others say that isn't correct...
It was indeed taken by a Harrier, and I was flying it. MoD wanted a shot of a Lightning from head on in a vertical climb over the middle of Binbrook for a recruiting poster.
R Cooke esq., rolled up at Wittering and we fitted his specially- modded camera–carrying CBLS to a T4. He sat in the back and pushed the bomb button to activate the camera on my call. Obviously he couldn’t see anything of what was going on behind us.
The Lightning pilot was Mike Thompson and he had to tuck in very close under my tail as we ran in at 400kt and pulled up over the airfield.
After viewing the shots from the first sortie, Richard said he needed the Lightning closer to the lens!
I had a quiet chat with Mike and we reflew the profile - I could feel the Lightning on the stick all the way through the manoeuvre.
Mike said he had been “pretty close” during the pull-up. I didn’t want to know how close exactly!
All the best,
ExMudmover
Vzlet
29th Jul 2016, 23:03
Ah, the wonder of the InterWeb in general and PPRUNE in particular! I had considered asking here if anyone might happen to know any details of how Richard Cooke obtained his signature "head-on" shots (perhaps the best-known of which is the rocket-firing Harrier). No need for that, however, as I had only to wait a couple of days for xMM to authoritatively address the issue!
Treble one
30th Jul 2016, 12:58
Interesting choice of camera ship to get that Lightning shot (to the uninitiated like myself). The Harrier had many strengths as a jet and weapons platform but I never imagined vertical climbs to be a particular strength?
Could you maybe enlighten me exMM? (Weapons delivery profile maybe?)
Wander00
30th Jul 2016, 13:05
I believe that at that time Mike was the Lightning display pilot
GeeRam
30th Jul 2016, 13:52
I believe that at that time Mike was the Lightning display pilot
That would make it 1983 then. (obviously before Aug 26 of course :()
exMudmover
30th Jul 2016, 20:26
Interesting choice of camera ship to get that Lightning shot (to the uninitiated like myself). The Harrier had many strengths as a jet and weapons platform but I never imagined vertical climbs to be a particular strength?
Could you maybe enlighten me exMM? (Weapons delivery profile maybe?)
Treble one
I made an error in my original post. The run-in speed was a lot higher than 400kt, probably nearer 500. Remember also the Harrier had a high thrust to weight ratio , (even the T4), so a vertical climb was no big deal.
Regards
ExMudmover
phil9560
31st Jul 2016, 00:25
Not the best taste that Geeram.
Rhino power
31st Jul 2016, 01:09
Not the best taste that Geeram.
Why?
It's obvious what, GeeRam is referring to, it's also quite clear that no offence or bad 'taste' was intended or meant, stop looking for ill intent where there is none!
-RP
phil9560
31st Jul 2016, 01:46
Yes RP and Geeram fair enough.
Just me briefly being a slapped arse .
Treble one
31st Jul 2016, 10:41
Thanks Ex MM.
I confess that I thought the Harrier was a much heavier aircraft than it actually is (just done a little bit of research).
All the best
TO
Similar shot of XS422 in 'test pilot' series over boscombe. big camera on centreline of hawk for this.
izod tester
1st Aug 2016, 18:56
Surely the whole point of the Harrier was that thrust exceeded weight (except when taking off with a full load of bombs). The drag from the large intake did limit max speed though.
But it still lost in the helo vs Harrier time to height from "brakes off" bet.....
izod tester
1st Aug 2016, 19:35
But did the helo actually release the brakes?
hoodie
1st Aug 2016, 20:22
There was also a great shot from a 1980s TV programme (series?) related to RAF Germany that started with the camera in a high hover over a Phantom stationary at the threshold.
The Phantom began its takeoff roll, and the camera followed - I assumed a helicopter, and that the F-4 would soon accelerate out of the frame.
Not a bit of it - the camera followed in a tight shot into the climb-out.
Clearly a 2 seat Harrier; anybody else remember that, or even better remember the programme - or even even better have a link to the shot on YouTube? :D
Monsun
1st Aug 2016, 20:47
I think the TV programme would have been an episode of the documentary series Man Alive on BBC which was done at Wildenrath in 1980. I spoke with Graham Clarke a few years ago who had to fly the reporter, Jack Pizzey, who completed his piece to camera between retches!
It is also mentioned in David Gledhill's book The Phantom in Focus and according to him it was a Gazelle helicopter that was used for the take off sequence. Have had a look for it on Youtube but without success.
Wokkafans
1st Aug 2016, 21:28
Monsun - this must have been the programme.
Man Alive: Phantom - BBC Two England - 1 May 1982 - BBC Genome (http://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/f73a979842c74d11a7477228522d2e24)
and a bit more from BEagle here:
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/333021-phantom-trip-bbc-natonwide.html
I think the clip you wanted is here:
Wildenrath Phantoms Video by DeeGee | Photobucket (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DeeGee/media/Aircraft/F4%20Videos/ManAlive.mp4.html?sort=3&o=2)
and a few other similar clips here:
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DeeGee/library/Aircraft/F4%20Videos?sort=3&page=1
But did the helo actually release the brakes? :p
As I understand no - the bet was that the helo would call brakes off, but The rules didn't insist they had to be released before either started their climb.......
hoodie
2nd Aug 2016, 06:50
Thanks, Wokkafans and Monsun!
Monsun
2nd Aug 2016, 07:22
And many thanks to Wokkafans from me as well!
NickB
15th Aug 2016, 11:29
ExMudmover - thanks for that interesting update - apologies for my delay in the replying, but I have been sunning myself in Cornwall.
Do you know when the picture was taken? Was it early 1983?
AndySmith
9th Mar 2019, 10:40
I came across a random video on Youtube which is a film of 3 lightnings at Wharton in 1988. It seems to be some kind of ceremony at the end? Was this the retirement?
Apologies if it's been posted before
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp7LQbtezhw
SASless
9th Mar 2019, 11:34
The Phantom began its takeoff roll, and the camera followed - I assumed a helicopter, and that the F-4 would soon accelerate out of the frame.
Had it been a Jaguar....the helicopter would have had to stop for a refuel in all probability!
Fareastdriver
9th Mar 2019, 12:26
A Puma could go from Zero to 145 knots in 2,000 yards easily. There is a picture of an F4 with two Pumas in formation with it.
Above The Clouds
9th Mar 2019, 12:33
I came across a random video on Youtube which is a film of 3 lightnings at Wharton in 1988. It seems to be some kind of ceremony at the end? Was this the retirement?
Apologies if it's been posted before
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp7LQbtezhw
More or less the last flights before being sent off to museums and private owners. Colin Rae was the one opening the bottle of bubbly.
pr00ne
9th Mar 2019, 12:40
Weren't these three the aircraft that BAE used for the Tor F3 radar development work?
I came across a random video on Youtube which is a film of 3 lightnings at Wharton in 1988. It seems to be some kind of ceremony at the end? Was this the retirement?
Apologies if it's been posted before
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp7LQbtezhw
Scroll down the comments on that video and you will see a detailed reply from Colin Rae.
GeeRam
9th Mar 2019, 14:16
More or less the last flights before being sent off to museums and private owners.
Not at all.
BAe continued to fly '693, '773 and 904 for another 2/3 years until the MOD contract for the Tornado trials ended in 1992 and '693 and '773 were bought by Barry Power and the Lightning Flying Club, and delivered to Exeter in Dec 1992. '904 went to the LPG at Brunty.
'928 was retired early being out of FI, IIRC, and BAe stripped it for parts and mounted it on a pole at BAe, and then '724 was retired, and bought by the Lightning Association and delivered back to Binbrook by Peter Gordon-Johnson IIRC in 1991?