Jet2 Emergency Landing at East Midlands

[marchino61]

Happened on 3rd September 2014 at 21:10 BST, according to the BBC:

BBC News - Jet2 plane makes emergency landing at East Midlands Airport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29058223)

Emergency landing was made as there was smoke in the passenger cabin.

Interesting fact is that the cockpit to cabin intercom failed, according to witnesses. As a result, the evacuation sounded pretty chaotic, if the BBC is to be believed. It did not say how well the cabin crew handled the emergency, but I suspect people should not have been standing out on the wings.......

[wiggy]

if the BBC is to be believed. It did not say how well the cabin crew handled the emergency, but I suspect people should not have been standing out on the wings.......

The BBC report actually states:

Some passengers climbed out on to the wing .....which is kind of difficult to avoid if you're evacuating the aircraft via the overwing exits...

[BOAC]

From the BBC reportA woman claimed her son managed to break a door and get out on to the wing of the plane. - break!! I guess another one who didn't listen to the safety brief or read the card?

I can see no reference to anyone 'standing' on the wings?

To add
He said the crew opened the main doors at the back and front of the plane, where the inflatable chutes drop down, but not the ones over the wings.- QED?

[Flying Wild]

It really irks me reading such rubbish which purportedly comes from passengers. Then again, reality won't sell news.

xxxxx said one member of the cabin crew kept screaming over and over: "Get off the plane everybody now!"

Yes, because joe bloggs will generally freeze/panic in an emergency situation, so the cabin crew are trained to shout at people to get out.

He said the crew opened the main doors at the back and front of the plane, where the inflatable chutes drop down, but not the ones over the wings.

Yes, because the cabin crew are located at the main exit doors. It is the responsibility of the able bodied person sitting by the overwing exit to open it in the event an evacuation is required. You did read the briefing card, didn't you?

xxxxx forced one of the doors open, ran to the end of the wing and jumped down on to the tarmac.

1. It's an escape hatch, not a door.
2. It doesn't require any force to open.
3. Running to the end of the wing and jumping off is a surefire way to break your legs. Perhaps he meant that he slid down the back of the wing down the conveniently lowered flaps.

"The stewardess kicked the door down up the front. I remember her taking a great big lunge for it to smash it down."

Not surprising as a door with girt bar attached actually takes some force to get going in order to release the slide.

Another man said cabin crew lost control on the ground, which led to panic and people trying to escape.

It's all quite subjective. If you asked each passenger what happened, you'd have up to 148 different answers.

[flyingfrog]

If you want a good old chuckle about this incident head on over to The Mail online and have a read of the report and accompanying comments. Nothing but BS! Hovering planes, kids shouldn't be on plane as they should be back at school, you couldn't make it up....well apart from the mail and their readers!:ugh:

[Basil]

cabin crew lost control on the ground, which led to panic and people trying to escape.
Think: couple of people attempting to control large flock of sheep ;)

[cavortingcheetah]

Lots of lovely compensation hangs on every descriptive word.

[PAPI-74]

Gotta love SLF when they have seen far too many claim adverts on TV. What has this country become??? :mad:

[aless85]

Hi

I fly the 737-200 not the NG.

And I came to notice that if the Cockpit to Cabin Intercom or PA were not working.

In the 737-200 Evacuation Checklist one of the Items is to Put the SBY Power Switch to BAT to have Radios and Intercom when you shut down the engines for an EVAC.

Is this the same case for a 737NG, and if so, maybe in the heat of the moment the pilots forgot that Item.

Thanks for the clarifying.

Regards.

[shlittlenellie]

aless85,

i) The NG, if the standby power switch is left in auto, has automatic switchover of the standby AC and DC buses to the battery on the ground. The PA will work. This is a system difference from the -200, -3-500.

ii) The Jet2 737 in question looks like, from the BBC story, that it's G-GDFT, a -300 with winglets and so you might be correct.

[aless85]

@shlittlenellie

Initially I thought it was an NG, Im too used too think Im the only one flying a dinosaur!!;)

Thanks!!

[Cameronian]

Thank you for the last three posts, shlittlenellie and aless85. It's helpful to read something which is useful and informative. Sadly too often some emotion, perhaps paranoia or perhaps arrogance, drives others to choose to ridicule those perfectly normal folk who pay their good money, albeit indirectly, to employ those who mock them.

[Cameronian]

Please accept my apologies, marchino61, wiggy and Flying Wild, for my sin of omission because yours too were thoughtful and helpful posts.

[Burnie5204]

Just seen a pic on BBC News, looks like R1 slide didnt deploy properly - maybe why they had/ result of having problems opening one of of the doors?

Speaking to the guys on last night and they said it was quite interesting to watch. Apparently the overwing exits were open even before CC had the rear doors open but they said that there was certainly no 'jumping off the wing' only people following the marked route and sliding down the flaps.

[crewmeal]

Sorry folks the Daily Mail has got hold of the story.

Jet2 passengers climb on plane wing from smoke-filled cabin after emergency landing | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2743210/We-smell-burning-Panicked-passengers-forced-climb-plane-wing-smoke-filled-cabin-electrical-problem-prompts-emergency-landing.html)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

From someone on board
Captain was in cabin prior or during descent checking under carriage status (lift carpet visual of "tube" believe they have mirrors to indicate some sort of allignment)
On stand evac command intercom failed so went to tannoy/ by that time slides had / may have been disarmed by CC and therefore poss not on station when evac command ccame
One slide didnt deploy correctly as highlighted

[INeedTheFull90]

I remember their RTO in GLA a couple of years back when passengers were horrified the the slides on the wing didn't deploy (!) and much was made about it at the time.

Look at video of the Southwest evacuation at LGA. Lots of people standing on a wing looking stunned and wondering where to go.

Yes in both incidents the issue may have been compounded by the lack of flap 40 selection, but I'd still expect them to be able to slide off the trailing edge wing root/flaps.

Modern day society though. It's always someone else's fault and you don't need to take responsibility for your actions.

I'm intrigued. Three minor incidents, a smallish fleet yet they've had three evacuations in the last two years. In this instance it seems a little half hearted. Two slides deployed, and at least one over wing opened.

Be interested to hear the report. Evacuations seem to happen all too often these days and they can be extremely dangerous.

[Artie Fufkin]

Yes in both incidents the issue may have been compounded by the lack of flap 40 selection, but I'd still expect them to be able to slide off the trailing edge wing root/flaps.

Flaps went to 40 in GLA.

[INeedTheFull90]

And yet they still stood there like stunned mullets :confused:

[Too Few Stripes]

Flaps 40 at GLA, no flaps at BLK and it looks like an intermediate setting at EMA though it may be F40 - difficult to tell on the BBC pictures.

[Burnie5204]

No, I saw the a/c on stand today before it got dragged down to maintenance.

Definitely F40 selected.

[fireflybob]

Definitely F40 selected.

and deployed?

[Burnie5204]

Yes. All flaps and slats fully extended.

Passengers were using them too despite what the media tells you about 'jumping off the end of the wing'

[Piltdown Man]

I'll say it again - We really must rethink our attitude towards evacuations and safety briefings. It is patently clear from Jet2's last three evacuations that these were truly cake and arse parties. It's not Jet2 fault because I'm sure they followed the guidance given by the clowns in the CAA and the lovely muppets in EASA. I'm also sure that cabin crew were properly trained and did their jobs to the very best of their ability. But what appears to have changed is the passenger. Each one now appears to "have rights", very few listen to the pre-flight brief and far too many make their own uninformed, ignorant opinions about their own safety and the actions they should take. Those who can't make up their minds screech and howl whenever anything unusual occurs. The media then re-enforce the beliefs of the stupid by reporting the rubbish they spout off.

Cameronian - It might appear that I'm being unpleasant to those who pay my wages. But I find it difficult to respect ignorance and stupidity. There was a time when most passengers paid attention to the safety brief but now, because people fly so much and emergencies are so rare, very few believe it is worth spending the time to listen and understand what is being said. Unfortunately, the price of doing so is blind disorder and panic. So given that the attitude of passengers has changes, airline safety policies must change to reflect the current world. But such a thing is only possible if the regulatory authorities permit such a change - but there's the problem. They know very little about aviation and even less about people.

[Burnie5204]

I'll say it again - We really must rethink our attitude towards evacuations and safety briefings. It is patently clear from Jet2's last three evacuations that these were truly cake and arse parties. It's not Jet2 fault because I'm sure they followed the guidance given by the clowns in the CAA and the lovely muppets in EASA. I'm also sure that cabin crew were properly trained and did their jobs to the very best of their ability. But what appears to have changed is the passenger. Each one now appears to "have rights", very few listen to the pre-flight brief and far too many make their own uninformed, ignorant opinions about their own safety and the actions they should take. Those who can't make up their minds screech and howl whenever anything unusual occurs. The media then re-enforce the beliefs of the stupid by reporting the rubbish they spout off.

Hear, hear!

People have become so accustomed to everything being handed to them on a plate. Of priviledges being presented to them as necessities that they now believe it is their right to go abroad for 2 weeks every year rather than a privilidge because 'itz mai human ritez tho innit'.

Like last night. The aircraft evacuated with NO warning to anyone, not even ground crews. The menzies crew had to duck for cover when the slides went as 2 of them were underneath chocking it and nearly got taken out when the flaps extended and slides blew out without warning. Handling agents are not trained to manage evacuations - thats the realm of AirOps and RFFS.

So how the hell in the world do these passengers expect there to be ANYONE at the bottom of the slides to help them less than 10 seconds after the decision to evacuate was taken? Do they think they have evacuation teams that instantaneously just spring up out of thin air?

I've flown Jet2 in a door seat so I KNOW that crew speak to each person at an 'unmanned' emergency exit to check that they know that in the event of evacuation it is their responsibility to check it is safe, open the door and either help people get out the door or help them off the slide at the bottom.

But yet some of these passengers seem to think that having paid their ticket price that, even in an emergency, everyone has to wait on them hand and foot. And I think that LoCo really hasn't helped this. People don't see Cabin Crew as emergency responders whose primary duty is to keep them safe, they see them as air bourne customer service and sales representatives and their personal attendants to serve them in the air - "would you like to buy a scratch card sir?"

[Facelookbovvered]

Whilst i agree with the comments of two previous post the fact remains we have what we have in terms of passengers and i think its more to do with the frequency and therefore complacency of regular flyers.

Evacuations should be a absolute last resort, the BLK Jet2 evacuations was i understand order by fire 1, so no real choice for the Capt, The GLA Jet2 evacuation would appear* to be due to misting following ingesting deicing fluid either from the runway or following deicing, something that might reasonably have been expected and therefore briefed for the cabin crew.

I await the report on the EMA Jet2 evacuation, but the AAIB are looking at the R1 relay issue according to early reports an issue that would explain loss of cabin PA and other issues reported.

Prior to considering an evacuation the Capt should always ask 'Cabin crew report' I can see smoke, what colour is it?, its white, is it clearing? how far can you see?

Evacuations in most case will result in injury!! A well handled event was the the aircraft (not Jet2) that left R14 at LBA some years back and ended up with the port side dangling over the drop, an evacuation there would have been a theme park slide almost vertical

[LGW Vulture]

As a slight aside, I had to laugh out loud last night when BBC News at Ten explained the trauma experienced by one unfortunate passenger. Who, it turns out, was so traumatised by his experience that he had to travel back to EMA some hours later and ponder to himself quietly outside the perimeter fence in order to try and take in all those experiences he had whilst in situ! :ugh:

[fireflybob]

The media coverage of this incident has been sensationalist to say the least - no wonder more people are becoming afraid of flying when they keeping hyping it up.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Well done to the crew for getting them all off in one piece.

[Sober Lark]

BBC Radio 4 mentioned this yesterday but didn't mention the airline. Is this simply because the incident didn't involve one of their sensational 'favourites'?

[ukc_mike]

There was a time when most passengers paid attention to the safety brief but now, because people fly so much and emergencies are so rare, very few believe it is worth spending the time to listen and understand what is being said. Unfortunately, the price of doing so is blind disorder and panic.

Amongst the comments on the Daily Mail was one bloke who asserted, repeatedly, if he was on an aircraft that had just completed an emergency landing, he would:

a) not wait for the crew to say it was safe to open the doors
b) he would thump anybody who got in his way or try to stop him

How on earth can any planning or procedure allow for that type of passenger?

[Station_Calling]

he would thump anybody who got in his way or try to stop him

Let's just hope he doesn't get sucked down a live engine then...

[BOAC]

...or alternatively...............

[shlittlenellie]

With passenger manned exits, the likelihood of the exit being opened in panic or adrenaline-fuelled and before being instructed to by the crew is high. The evacuation checklist and procedure doesn't include this and has to be altered rather promptly when and if it becomes apparent that the overwing is open and the engine is still running at idle.

There's a lot of disdain for passengers standing on wings and stating how easy it is to slide down the flaps when they're set at 40. Hmmm. I beg to differ. If it's on fire, then sure you'll get down somehow but it is "somehow" and how agile and prepared are most passengers (or flightcrew for that matter)? Have a look at the height of the wing and flap extension on your next walkaround, why not extend the flaps to 40, ground activity permitting, and look at the distance to the ground. Also look at it when you next pass the exit on your way through the cabin. It's not comparable to the "ease" of a slide and slide evacuations always cause some injuries. How about a wet wing, an upper surface iced wing, a de-iced wing with fluid still extant? This came up in the Glasgow evacuation and it's more valid than some give it credit. The other aspect is that removable overwing exits are actually fairly heavy and cumbersome and where does that door actually end up when it's removed? The -800 exit is a thing of beauty in comparison, but this wasn't an -800.

So how do we ensure that all passengers follow all instructions? Successful evacuations are controlled evacuations.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

A couple of comments:

It is the responsibility of the able bodied person sitting by the overwing exit to open it in the event an evacuation is required

During my past few flights as SLF the passengers sitting next to the overwing exits seem:

a) not to be able-bodied (old, infirm, young);
b) seemed to appreciate the extra leg room afforded by pre-booking the seat; and
c) were not briefed by cabin crew before the flight (verbally and/or to ensure safety card had been read and understood.

Please note these comments DO NOT relate to Jet2 flights.

[Mr Optimistic]

Come to think of it I don't recall any safety briefing by cc stating that you must follow their instructions and no door to be opened except on their instruction. On the safety card the cartoons tell you to look out of the window and check it is safe. No mention of engines running or doing as you are told, interpretation likely to be act on your own initiative. Have I been characteristically inattentive all these years?

Edit: and for that matterwhy not a quick reminder before landing (sorry cc but you could usually omit the lifejacket rigmarole at that stage....)

[fireflybob]

In the olden days there used to be a member of cabin crew seated midships near the overwing exits from doors closed to airborne and from just before landing to engine shut down.

[Piltdown Man]

Mr Optimistic - you have been paying attention. And is it for that reason, amongst others, that it is best to wait until the command to evacuate is given. You also make a fair point regarding taking action on your own initiative - this forms no part of any briefing that I know of. Another reason to sit tight would be to wait for the initial attack by the RFF to be completed. They have the ability to knock out small (brakes, small fuel leaks etc.) fires, most likely rendering an evacuation unnecessary.

I have also witnessed a few discussions about inappropriate people sitting in the rows by the emergency exits. They don't (and certainly will not) last long but it's a shame we have to have them. The best reason I've heard to date was proffered by a little old dear with a broken leg. That was "That restriction doesn't apply to me" she then went tell us that she had to have to extra room so she could keep her leg straight.

[JustOccurred2Me]

I adore flying, yet hate heights. I can look out of an a/c window and love every second of it, but freeze solid ten feet up a ladder.

I cannot imagine how :mad: terrified I would be, in what *might* be an emergency situation (smoke, smell of burning), suddenly finding myself on a wing and having to find my way safely off it. Even with bits extended, it's a long way down :eek:

Yes, I read the emergency card and yes I do watch the briefing and I actually know where I should go... but I can easily imagine that being there is not quite the same.

It would be an interesting straw poll on here just to find out how many of the regular commentors have ever stood on a wing in an evac?

[pcpmitch]

I don't often comment as I'm only SLF, even though I fly a lot, but I have noticed a few issues that need to be addressed by the industry regarding overwing exits.

The safety briefing regarding leaving the aircraft in an emergency emphasises the slides, however if you exit via the wing then there is no slide so passengers aren't sure what to do. (appreciate some large ac do have slides). To some people it is a long drop even with flaps 40. Don't forget you are standing up so it looks a long way down especially if you are not in the first flush of youth.

The exit row seats used to be a perk for frequent flyers who, on the balance of probabilities, would probably have more idea of what to do in an emergency. (though agreed this could not be counted on)

The safety briefing isn't clear when the over wing exits should be opened, the cabin crew, when they give the one to one briefing at the seat, state "in an emergency", not "when told to be cabin crew". Some people may freeze, some may react too quickly.

Regards
Mitch

[marcus1290]

This really really winds me up. I have many friends who work for Jet2 in both flight crew and cabin crew roles, and I hate how these news reports give them and the company a bad name.


If you listen to the interview on the BBC website and read the article, there are a few things which clearly point out that the passengers paid no attention to the safety brief or reviewed the safety cards.


"His friend Rob forced one of the doors open, ran to the end of the wing and jumped down on to the tarmac.


He then helped other passengers who were running along the wings down on to the runway."


If the cabin crew hadn't initiated the opening of the over wing doors, why would a passenger do it themselves? If the crew hadn't given the go-ahead for it, that would tell me that there may have been a concern that there was a possibility of fire either from the engines, from underneath the aircraft or something. As for running to the end of the wings and jumping off, im 100% certain that over wing exits are not described this way in any safety briefing. So why are the passengers doing it? This also happened with the GLA incident.


Furthermore, in the interview, the gent says that the cabin crew were shouting at the passengers to leave their bags because the passengers had their bags in their hands.......WHY?? Its made clear that in the event of an emergency, leave ALL belongings.


This has nothing to do with Jet2 procedures and their crew, its to do with bloody stupid passengers not following procedures or orders and doing what they please. Cabin crew acting the way they did was clearly in an attempt to regain control of the passengers for their own safety.

[SLFguy]

with bloody stupid passengers not following procedures or orders

So we have a site where the media is constantly lambasted for inaccuracies but at the drop of a hat is then used for quote purposes so people can talk about "bloody stupid passengers".

You people amaze me.

[chrissw]

Well I'm just a passenger, a fairly frequent one, and it's my personal opinion that your ARE stupid if you don't:

1. Read the safety card;
2. Observe the cabin crew's safety briefing;
3. Check how you personally would leave the aircraft in an evacuation. This perhaps means nothing more that counting the number of rows between yourself and the exits.
4. Listen to the crew's instructions if an evacuation should happen.

In any case, items 1 to 3 should take no more than 5 minutes. When you might have an hour, and likely much more, to kill between departure and arrival, how hard can it be?

[lomapaseo]

Well I'm just a passenger, a fairly frequent one, and it's my personal opinion that your ARE stupid if you don't:

1. Read the safety card;
2. Observe the cabin crew's safety briefing;
3. Check how you personally would leave the aircraft in an evacuation. This perhaps means nothing more that counting the number of rows between yourself and the exits.
4. Listen to the crew's instructions if an evacuation should happen.

In any case, items 1 to 3 should take no more than 5 minutes. When you might have an hour, and likely much more, to kill between departure and arrival, how hard can it be?

This discussion would be a lot more productive in another forum like SLF.

Imagine the pilots not reading their safety instructions for a given aircraft until they actually were in an emergency under stress.

[marcus1290]

@chrissw,


EXACTLY.


If all the passengers had been like yourself and others, would we be having this conversation? No.


In an emergency, the cabin crew have a duty to help passengers off the aircraft in a safe manner. Anybody that goes against that advice and turns down the help, putting them selves in danger and possibly seriously injuring themselves is stupid.

[LGW Vulture]

You only have to watch the majority of passengers behaviour in the airport environment to realise once in an aircraft - they become even more separated from real life and pretty damn close to subhuman in many instances. :ugh:

[Mr Optimistic]

I think it's all a bit unrealistic to expect much else frankly. From my one experience of trauma I know that your brain does funny things and after a good shaking about you may well not know you are sitting down, let alone in an aircraft, let alone in an accident. I have read that some people struggle to undo their safety buckle and I can well believe it. The odds of me remembering how to open a door (and believe me I do try and remember it) - in the rather unlikely event I got to it first, are approximately zero. In those circumstances I wonder even if I had the card in front of me whether I could open the thing and deploy the slide.

That is why deep training is necessary so that muscle memory takes over, nothing casual will work. Passengers aren't trained and a two minute speech on departure just won't change anything.

However in the less serious situations brains are working and it's a crowd control incident. The passengers will remember that they had a safety brief so know things could be bad. When the aircraft stops they won't yet realise it's only a bit of excitement. For all anyone in the paying seats knows the clock might well be ticking and it's a competitive life or death exercise. Add a bit of smoke and a smell of burning and everyone wants to get up: sitting still and waiting for instructions isn't a comfortable choice. So need to reassure in an authoritive and calming manner. Like that Glasgow incident, any hint of the word 'evacuate'and the aisles will be full.

[silverhawk]

And the aisles would be full.

Which demonstrates wonderfully what a mockery the whole ETOPS/EDTO set up really is.

Not that this applies to Jet2. Just shows how the rules are applied to facilitate profit before safety.

[Trossie]

A comment I heard from someone once:
"Most passengers check their brains in with their bags"!

Any truth in that?

[LNIDA]

Don't evacuate unless the situation is unstable, not sure if this rush to evacuate is a British thing?
Is there any evidence that people walked along the wing rather than down the flaps?

[Mr Optimistic]

Think that's a bit unfair. Manners perhaps, not brains. Only takes a couple of people to get up and good luck restoring calm and order. It's more or less instinctive behaviour. With a backdrop of the odd crying child and screaming passenger there probably just aren't enough cc to man the stations and at the same time patrol the aisles to instil calm.

[SpannerInTheWerks]

You only have to watch the majority of passengers behaviour in the airport environment to realise once in an aircraft - they become even more separated from real life and pretty damn close to subhuman in many instances.

and

From my one experience of trauma I know that your brain does funny things

I'm not sure if it was a briefing about the Manchester Airtours accident or just during my training in general, but passengers in an emergency have been categorised as those who:

1) Panic and will climb over everyone and everything to get out and survive;
2) Are in denial, even to the point of sitting in their seat (reading a paper I was told), to the point where they do absolutely nothing;
3) Become agitated/violent;
4) Faff around carrying out out irrelevant tasks instead of making for an exit; or
5) Evaculate in an orderly fashion.

The latter, I suspect, will be in the minority.

Some might even assist cabin crew/help others, but they're likely to be a rarity.

[fireflybob]

A comment I heard from someone once:
"Most passengers check their brains in with their bags"!


Watch how people behave in lifts (aka elevators). If someone takes command (haha!) of the lift things tend to go more smoothly.

There is a fine line between expecting to be told what to do and in extremis having to make your own decision to protect your life.

The overwing exits are a classic example. Passengers would normally expect to be told when to operate/use these exits. However in extremis (sudden crash landing) they might have to make a decision to use them.

Of course, coordinated action is best and that is one of the reasons why the cabin crew are on board led by flight deck crew.

This is a complex issue but at some level passengers need to have trust in the system. When this is being continually undermined by the sensationalist media and air crash "documentaries" their level of trust may be eroded.

Culturally people are more used to questioning authority. (Think of the recent events with respect to reclining seats.) However passengers need to appreciate that when they get on an a/c they need to follow instructions in order to guarantee their safety.

[AirScotia]

A comment I heard from someone once:
"Most passengers check their brains in with their bags"!

The aviation industry can't have it both ways. Passengers are expected to queue patiently, sit in a very small space, conform obediently to the commands of the staff, place trust in two people they never get to see. Essentially, they're asked to temporarily cease to be normal human beings.

Then, in an emergency, they're expected to turn instantly into pro-active, clear-thinking, crisis-handling experts?

Make people into sheep...you get sheep.

[five zero by ortac]

Returning from holiday as an SLF last night, into LGW, I had been given seat 12C, in an exit row. On boarding the flight I was astonished that the guy who was already seated in 12A was...shall we say...exceedingly large (visualise the shape of a water butt)...and after sitting there for a few minutes thinking how would he actually fit through the window, I tactfully asked him if he was happy sitting next to the emergency exit window. Half expecting a thump, he just said "yer mate I allwiz sitin dis row, can't fit in uverz". Cabin crew brought him a belt extension and looked at him but didn't say anything, and no briefing given to our seat row on use of exits.

Something needs to change. PS. Not Jet2

[BillS]

I regularly fly Jet2 and, when possible, book the more spacious seats in row 12. Most crew are highly professional but I have noted that in 2 of my last 3 flights in the over wing exit row there was no specific briefing given either to me or the pax opposite.

I would be interested in views about what action to take if/when it happens the next time ...

[glider12000]

our old SOP was if you needed an extension then you can't sit in a restricted seat.

Safety should always take priority and us in the industry should always remember this.

[lomapaseo]

From the comments about exit row seating I would guess that most have not flown Southwest Airlines in the US+ in their exit rows.

You kind of have to pass a test first to remain in this row as it's guarded by a FA as you board. And don't mumble when asked if you have read the instructions.

Once my wife stepped back to have me lift her bag into the overhead and she was immediately denied the exit row seating (of course I stayed having passed the test :)

[Artie Fufkin]

From a professional point of view, quite an interesting incident. We practice an evacuation each sim and feel confident we know what to do, but this incident highlights that the procedures we practice never actually really occur in the way we think they will. After GLA it was pointed out that once the evacuation drill was completed in the sim we usually head off for coffee and a break, whereas in real life, the pilots have a lot more duties to perform and made us all think about further actions (which the GLA crew performed well).

In this incident, we have to ask ourselves what would we do if the evacuation was required on stand, with engines shut down, seatbelt signs off and with all pax already in the aisle collecting their luggage from overhead lockers coupled with a failure of the PA system? Honestly, how many times have an average crew practiced this scenario in the sim? What would we have done? What other weird and wonderful variants of the evacuation could occur that we haven't yet practiced, or even considered?

From what I hear, it was another good job done by the crew in difficult conditions. Well done chaps! :ok:

[Piltdown Man]

Artie - That's another excellent post. I totally agree that the ordering of an evacuation is only a fraction of the process. The real work starts sorting out the mess afterwards - some never, ever finish it.

[Noxegon]

This is one of the reasons why I like the more novel safety briefing videos that you see from time to time, such as the Air New Zealand video based on LOTR. Something like this is much more likely to get (and hold) passenger attention than a crew member barking over the PA system.

I think that it'd be easier to keep attention if the briefing was optimised a bit into what is actually important -- is it really still necessary to explain to people how to close a seat belt in this day and age?

Just my €0.02...

[LN-KGL]

I have only briefly browsed through this thread and I don't see any comment to why the emergency slides were deployed. The opening of the overwing exit is clearly done by passengers, but what about the deployment of the slides (right front and rear left can be seen in the pictures)? I guess that was done by the crew, but was this a result of the chaos and the crew needed to release the pressure? Since only two slides can be seen; why weren't the two others deployed?

[BOAC]

If the a/c is on stand it is a nightmare - steps or jetty at or approaching front left, possible baggage teams and other ground equipment on the right and maybe steps coming up to back left. One of the most difficult evacs to do.

[rog747]

at BMA at LHR many many years ago (707 and DC-9's)

if the a/c was still on stand and was boarded or boarding then the main exit to use in an emergency was the jetty attached to the a/c plus the rear stairs if a set was in place on the 707 (and the ventral air-stairs on the DC-9 32)

Normally no slides were to be popped as no doors would be armed at all at this stage. (the DC-9's also had the tail cone slide)

if the a/c was closed up for departure (doors armed) all ground equipment should be clear of all main exits unless skipper knew a hold was still open for late bags, in which case the ground engineer would be on a headset pre-pushback

Aircraft arrival on stand and an emergency evacuation situation occurs (we never had one) - if no jetty or stairs already in place then the doors/slides would all be popped - If the jetty was already on then the main exit to use was that.
That's what we were trained for AFAICR

I don't understand about the EMA Jet2 733 - the press and on here mentions ''emergency landing''
did crew declare or know of an emergency before landing due to the cabin smoke or did all this happen after landing and/or on shut-down on stand?
all the press reports are rather hysterical and I cannot fathom the chain of events.
If the emergency/smoke was known prior to landing then an immediate Evac onto the runway surely is desirable if cabin smoke not clearing or is worsening?

If the Jet2 emergency/smoke occurred right there and then on shut-down on stand and pax getting ready to disembark then i can see the potential for pax having cabin bags already in their hands and ground equipment moving in to service the a/c.
this all complicates things to a higher level in an Evac and will become confused and perhaps difficult to control.

If that was the unfortunate scenario then also all comms might be difficult with everybody inside and outside just at that moment if power was interrupted (see Aless85 comments about PA/intercom on 737 Classic SBY/BATT power) and ground engineer/ground crew was not seeing what the flight or cabin crew was intending

anyone put me right here appreciated thanks - edit just seen BOAC's comment above mine

the photos indicate all slides deployed except maybe Door1L or were the steps put on after the EVAC?
the flaps are shown down and both o/w hatches opened and that Door 1R slide has not deployed correctly - reason unknown.

[Nialler]

Perhaps, since so much booking activity is online, there's an opportunity to oblige SLF such as myself to be obliged to answer a couple of the most basic questions relating to the procedures in the event of an emergency would not take much time.

Additionally, if boarding cards can feature a seat number they can equally indicate the nearest emergency exit to that seat (given that it's available in the event).

Yes, it's spoonfeeding, but the issue of orderly evacuations seems to be a problem.

[rog747]

Nialler most Evacs do not happen planned and most are on landing

therefore in a catastrophic and unexpected event such as BA38 or the AF A340-300 over run at YYZ the question of which way you go/turn/head/jump/crawl/climb to get out may or may not be that which is most logical or that printed on your boarding card.
ie where you ''came in''

when you get seated on board spot/note the doors in front and behind you on both sides and count the seat rows to them
read the door/hatch opening procedures - if you see any obvious huge fatties/kids/infirm or real oldies are seated by or even in the exit row then tell the C/C to move them - end of.
BTW the hatch to be thrown out may weigh up to 50LBS.

if you are at the over-wing hatches some have to get thrown out and some just pop up
and to just say put on the boarding card where you evacuate would not work!

in the old days we used to print on the boarding cards seat rows 1-15 board by the front door and rows 16-32 board by the rear door -
SLF still took no notice and that was 30-40 years ago!

BTW we never allocated exit row seats at check-in for those who clearly were not permitted to go there

[Skyjob]

Nialler: "Additionally, if boarding cards can feature a seat number they can equally indicate the nearest emergency exit to that seat (given that it's available in the event)."

Have you considered that the reason airlines do NOT tell you where the nearest exit to your seat is, is to protect you, in case of the unfortunate possibility where THAT exit becomes unavailable due to, for instance. a fire on its outside to name one of a not limited amount of options?

If you tell SLF to get out of THAT exit, they WILL, and risk their lives versus getting out of a SERVICEABLE exit elsewhere, which could save their life.

[Nialler]

I understand all this, but are you telling me that the CC are not controlling the exits?

Additionally, why does the briefing specifically include an instruction to locate he nearest emergency exit? Doing this "fixes" its location in your mind more strongly than merely indicating its location in a schematic on the boarding card - that's because you are doing so visually and in the here and now.

What I find a little bit offensive, though, is something that is permanently evident in these discussions; the presumption of stupidity on the part of your passengers. Guess what? If I were seated such that the rear exits were nearest to me, and if in the event of an emergency the exits were unavailable for egress I would seek the nearest exit forward of me.

[rottenray]

On literally every flight I've enjoyed for the last ~ 15 years, the safety briefing is largely ignored. You see people surreptitiously listening to their MP3 players, reading something, or talking non-stop to the person next to them - all while the poor FA is trying to give them information that will save their lives if something happens.

There is also some degree of mindless "civil disobedience" amongst modern-day passengers. During taxi, out of 150 people, you will probably see at least 1 idiot who just has to grab something out of the overhead, or just has to use the lav.

So, it never surprises me when I read about panicked pax opening doors, etc. when some minor emergency occurs.

They can't listen when the heat is off, what makes anyone think they'll listen when things are very serious?

Out of a couple hundred flights, I've only been unlucky enough to not get a window seat a handful of times.

At this point, in case of an emergency requiring evac, I have resigned myself to simply staying put in my seat until the rest of the idiots are done breaking legs, grabbing carry-on, taking snaps and selfies, and tweeting about the incident...

...unless I see great great billows of smoke or the cabin floor starts to get very hot - then, look out. Of course, I'll still listen to the FA(s) and I'll help anyone I can along the way, but if you're in my way at that point and just goofing off, you'll just have to stand aside a moment.

I just wish everyone had the great respect for flight deck and cabin crew that I do. I've been very lucky in that I've never had to be part of an evac and I hope that never changes.

But really... You don't second-guess a plumber when your commode is running over, so why do these people just ignore the trained folks whose job it is to keep us safe?

Cheers!

[Piltdown Man]

What I find a little bit offensive... ...the presumption of stupidity on the part of your passengers.

Nialler, I know what you mean but day after day we, like most people who come into contact with the general public, experience the most baffling of behaviour. Even when things are going well and there is no emergency, people do the most amazing things. Too many people also fail to listen to what they are being told and miss vital information. The Jet2 evacuation at GLA shows some of facets of passengers. There are the gawpers and rubber-neckers (who now take clips on their smart phones), the selfless few who, without being asked, helped the evacuating passengers off the slides. And then there's, well let's call her Jean and people like her. When on the wing of the smoking 737 she noticed that there was no slide. She thought it better to re-enter an aircraft she had left to go to a door with a slide. She also apparently told others to do the same. Yet she was shown the way to go by two girls ahead of her who jumped off the wing.

It's not all one sided. We are as guilty as the next guy in splurting out a constant stream of verbage and pointless guff, purely because a bunch of clowns with MBAs think it would be nice or whatever. As a result, passengers treat this "cabin noise" much in the same way as I treat unwanted calls and junk mail - and ignore them. I'll also admit I do the same although I pay attention when the words are different or the tape is changed. Unfortunately, some of the stuff that is ignored is important. Maybe our friends in the AAIB may cotton on to this and make a recommendation that the ratio between the marketing :mad: and safety PA's be adjusted in so passengers actually listen.

And we must also consider the people's automatic response to danger - Flight, Fight or Freeze. Yet our passenger briefings and training assume only compliance - and even on a good day, that is most unlikely. Which is another reason why we really must re-consider the subject of aircraft evacuation.

[rog747]

passengers are not stupid

they are just normal human beings in an environment not familiar nor usual to them and likely many are stressed before they even get on board

today people in all walks of life, and means of travel including the car fail to
grasp what their safety is all about and the lack of their own awareness
that trait seems to be increasing that it is someone else's fault

over-wing exits are not manned normally on most airlines hence the chat
from the crew before take off that you know you are sat at one

[LNIDA]

Technology and Media can subconsciously help a passengers understanding of what to do.

Many airlines have adopted the drop down screens to show the safety briefing, the better ones use eye catching visuals or humour to get the message across, obviously it cost money to install support and run these systems, but done properly it works.

This is much more difficult on old mixed previous owner fleets, but ordered from new its cost effective

[roninmission]

rog747
f you see any obvious huge fatties/kids/infirm or real oldies are seated by or even in the exit row then tell the C/C to move them - end of.

Sure and the CC will listen politely and do your bidding?

[rog747]

roninmission

I have in recent years quietly spoken to C/C on several
occasions on various airlines where children, very elderly/frail and large passengers using lap belt extensions were incorrectly seated in an o/w exit -

Yes C/C do listen and will deal with it but they cannot control what happens via on-line check-in systems or failure by check-in agents

with greatest respect its up the individual what to do but apathy is not in my training as an airline professional (retired)

[Skyjob]

Yes C/C do listen and will deal with it but they cannot control what happens via on-line check-in systems or failure by check-in agents

This is the core problem in many airlines, especially when using associated allocated seating.

Pax can book a ticket and choose to sit at the (over-wing) emergency exit rows.
Pax can book and choose all adult tickets, as sometimes no financial gain is to be made from a child ticket anyway, saving you time and effort during booking process.
The seat allocation process cannot then verify the age of occupants in the emergency exit row, pax are happy for extra legroom booked (and sometimes paid for).
Gate staff check boarding passes for valid flight, not ages in rows of emergency exits (repeatedly heard gate staff say to pax seating issues will be sorted by cabin crew on board, even though at gate there is plenty of time vs in aircraft limited time before departure).
Cabin crew are now faced with a situation they have to rectify, but with pax having paid extra for the bit more legroom are thus hesitant to leave their allocated premium paid seats and will revolt.

Start by changing the IT issue in the beginning of the sequence and problem solved! :ok:

[Piltdown Man]

Changing IT systems is only part of the issue. The ultimate decision has to rest with the cabin crew and they must be supported in their judgement. If they deem a passenger is unsuitable for an over wing exit, then that decision has to be final. If CAs know they will always be supported, they will adhere to the spirit of their company's regulations. Unfortunately, there are too many instances of the cabin crew saying one thing and being incorrectly over-ruled by others, including the flight deck.

[bbrown1664]

How about this for a suggestion.


As we now have to get to the airport what seems like a fortnight before our flights, a quick and easy computer based test can be administered to all passengers before boarding. During this, the emergency procedures for the specific flight can be taught and anyone failing the test 2 or three times will be denied boarding to prove they have taken on-board the information.


It will make life safer for the rest of us.

[judge11]

A 'filter' could be written into the online seat booking process.

All it would need, when someone clicked to reserve an overwing exit seat, would be a pop-up window (flashing with a fanfare to attract attention if required!) saying something like:

You have chosen to reserve a seat adjacent to an overwing emergency exit. The exit is a confined space and can weigh in excess of 20kg. If the cabin crew consider you are not capable of operating the door and exiting in the event of an emergency you will be asked to sit elsewhere in the cabin. DO YOU WISH TO PROCEED WITH THE RESERVATION OR CHOOSE ANOTHER SEAT?

A few lines of code, that's all.:ok:

[AirScotia]

Judge11, I've been asked that very question by online check-in systems on several occasions. I imagine that a certain percentage of online bookers will simply lie. The technology isn't up to THAT yet!

You can arrive on the plane having had no contact with a human being belonging to the airline. So it's often down to the CC.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Best bit of common sense I've seen was by an SW C/C. She'd spotted I had my ID on, that I'd forgetten about, and asked me to sit in the exit row.

I've picked up a 737 door, they are not light. About 20kg or so.

My brother came up with a novel plan, why not have pax licenses? Could be done in a day.

[Ancient Mariner]

Does anyone really believe that a safety briefing, a safety card or a online quiz will prepare a passenger for an emergency?
Today, as far as I know, the merchant navy require a basic 5 day safety course, add another 10 days for officers and you will be allowed to set foot on deck.
In my days at sea we had drills every week in evacuation, fire fighting and first aid for two to four hours at the time and still, in every emergency I encountered at sea, be it grounding, fires or accidents someone froze, panicked or got it all wrong.
And you expect the average passenger to behave rationally in an emergency in a, to them, unfamiliar environment?
Better consider us all worthless and plan accordingly.

[bbrown1664]

Does anyone really believe that a safety briefing, a safety card or a online quiz will prepare a passenger for an emergency?


Not really but it will remove some of the Darwin candidates from the cabin allowing the rest of us a chance.

[Roadster280]

I'm fortunate enough not to have gone through it, but an emergency evac is one of the things I worry about when on a flight. Who's in what seats between me and the exit. How is the 120lb 5' flight attendant going to deal with the 7' 300lb idiot going the wrong way?

But from videos (who the hell thinks that's a good time to make a video?), one of the most asinine things is the flight attendants screaming. That to me induces an air of panic. It's one thing to give out an authoritative order in a loud manner, quite another to scream. Is this just the FA's panicking themselves, or is that the training? What's the aim of it? It's concerning to me that people will give undue attention to a seemingly panicked FA rather than their full attention to exiting the aircraft in an orderly, expeditious manner, following plain, authoritative instructions.

It reminds me of the TSA loons shouting at no-one in particular in a condescending voice. Gives the air of an uncontrolled operation. It worries me that this is officially "OK".

[RHRP]

Flew out on a UK airline on Sunday. Three of the pax in the two exit rows in front of me had headphones in while the cabin crew gave the special briefing for people in the overwing exit rows and paid no attention. Cursory attention from the rest.

Flew back with same airline today and the pax next to me found a small package left from the previous flight in the seat pocket. Proved to be harmless, but not identified in the pre-flight security check.

From the comments of some posters in this thread, there seems to be a suggestion that these deficiencies are down to the regulators, but to me it seems that they are down to the airline with whom liability rests. In both cases had I survived an incident/accident, I would hold the airline responsible for failing to exercise a duty of care. Airline managements have to put in place proper measures to ensure that safety and security procedures are being complied with.

[16024]

In post #68 Rottonray mentions "Civil Disobedience". Actually this is Criminal Disobedience. Let us make no mistake about this.
In the days of going for a £6.99 burger and expecting 5 star customer service, it's important to remember who is in charge when you step onto an aircraft. It's not Nando's or the post office, and if the Captain or any of the crew says "Sit down, stand up, turn around 3 times and sing us a song" then, however unreasonable it may seem, that's what happens. You can talk it through with Customer Services later.

[Smudger]

16024.. Thank you ... that's all that needs to be said.

[ettore]

This whole conversation (thread) boils down to the simple fact that SLF looks upon CC as if they were waiters. And that's actually their usual experience and perception of flying, having no idea but from movies and yellow press of what an emergency can be.
A word from the cabin crew in the initial PA to remind passengers that CC is in the first line there to keep people safe wouldn't cost much, I guess.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

A word from the cabin crew in the initial PA to remind passengers that CC is in the first line there to keep people safe wouldn't cost much, I guess.

And that "word" is almost always mentioned by the flight deck welcome on-board PA prior to push back and start-up.

But then they probably don't listen to that either:ugh:

[ettore]

Well, then stress that word, walking down the aisle, showing the emergency exits and so on. I can only remember of videos one could hardly differenciate from a stupid ad' for whatever sale product. "Safety", you said? It starts with personal commitment instead of pressing a dumm button on a screenplay.

[RouteDctEGXX]

16024 hits the nail on the head.

[take-off]

As SLF , can I make a suggestion, for one make the announcement heard over the rabble thats just boarded, Yes it WILL annoy regular customers, and probably cause the rest to complain, whys' it SOO loud, but half the time, when I've been on a plane in recent times, its been difficult to hear what cabin crew are saying and the Captains announcemnt's are barely audible, but then that doesn't just apply to Jet2 , had same on Thomson, and AA ... unfortunately as has been said on here before, people just don't take any notice , unless your really in their face.. so maybe a bit of deafening instructions to begin with will get their attention... gets me those that don't listen are usually the first to complain about something that's wrong.. of course the only other thing i could suggest is that the plane doesn't move until everyone is paying attention:E

[fireflybob]

takeoff, valid points especially for those who are hard of hearing such as the elderly.

Whenever the PA is verging on inaudible I always make a point of informing a member of cabin crew.

[LNIDA]

Airlines have made a rod for their own back with a certain airline treating its cabin crew as sales staff first and safety staff a very distant second add other certain airlines flying aircraft so old that the PA has the output fidelity of an early pathe news report, flight deck that mumble or can't be arsed, what do you expect .

[Mecaniquito84]

Not all airliners. If you have the oportunity to assist to an, for instance AF's FA briefing before departure, sometimes even w captain directing it, you will note how serious they prepare as a whole crew and individually, in each station, how they stablished the procedures, who is in charge, assign personal tasks. How they check all the emergency equipment for availability and proper working condition, how they demand and even stop the flight should something is missing or malfunctioning.
At that time, no other problems like maintenance, catering, operations will be adressed, only passager and crew safety. This requieres time, training, discipline and, of course, money. In my experience, this is very similar for many full fare airliners
I had not any experience neither I expect such a meeting in a LCC.
At the end, everything goes down to "You get what You paid for".

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

In my experience, this is very similar for many full fare airliners
I had not any experience neither I expect such a meeting in a LCC.
At the end, everything goes down to "You get what You paid for".

I am not entirely certain what you are insinuating as your English is difficult to understand, but by my reading it appears that you "might" be insinuating that LCC operators don't do all of the preparations that you have described. If that is the case then I believe you are very much mistaken and are making a huge assumption that you cannot substantiate. I believe, certainly in the UK, that ALL operators regardless of their low fare or otherwise complete all such safety briefings and pre-flight checks of the safety equipment, and are all highly trained in it's use. So, in the UK (I have no experience anywhere else so won't generalise) you are correct, you do get what you pay for, you will ALWAYS get highly trained and professional crew who know what they have to do and when they have to do it, that includes "shoving" the door to open it to release the slide, and that most definitely will always include being shouted at in a sharp manner when required to evacuate, it tends to make people hurry up and get off, just what we want. They aren't panicking, they are doing what they are trained to do.

[Aluminium shuffler]

The trouble is you're dealing with the public. Some of them are smart, but many are not. Anyone remember how so many pax were gobbing off about the awful cabin crew shouting at them and pushing them down the slide if they hesitated when Virgin had their smokey evac? They are too stupid to realise that the crew are there for their safety and too stupid to pay any attention to briefings or immediate instructions, and they then blame everyone else. Shame these people can't be identified at boarding and sat in seat with delayed release belts that only open when all the cooperative and intelligent punters are out, (if at all)...

[Smudger]

Johnny.. hear hear.. saved me having to say it.. M84 you have just demonstrated your ignorance of these matters in public

[lefthanddownabit]

The solution is surely to mention the escape path from overwing exits in the safety briefing. Slides are mentioned after all. Any passenger seated there needs to be briefed that they would need to open the hatch and when to do so.

My most recent flights in the exit rows have all been with easyJet. In every case the flight attendant was assertive in demanding exit row passengers' attention before briefing them in detail. Obviously everyone says they are happy to stay in the exit row when asked. A warning about how heavy the escape hatch is might put some people off sitting there though. A 20 kg escape hatch is as heavy as the baggage they checked in, but unlike that is not on wheels and may need to be lifted in a sitting position.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Lefthanddown, it doesn't matter what you put in the briefings or on the cards if the punters pay no interest in it. I keep the PA selected on on my selector at a low volume, and if I hear the cc pause the demo a second time to tell folk to pay attention, I put the brakes on and make a similar comment. I have thrown a handful off for continuing to be disruptive during the demo in the past, but we shouldn't need to get to that stage if the passengers were more reasonable. Stopping all sales of alcohol in the airport would be a good start to improving behaviour and attention on the aircraft, I think.

[roninmission]

Yes and cabin staff not over-serving would be good too.

[Station_Calling]

There isn't time on most UK hop flights for that to happen. What does happen is the two hours in the bar beforehand, and then bottle of vodka or JD they smuggle on to keep themselves going...

[Ivan aromer]

We have now arrived at a time, certainly in the loco market, when the CC are now employed more as sales people than guardians of the SLF's safety.

1.Management recognise this, hence the vast majority of time on recurrent training is "sales technique" or some other meaningless "take me there" rubbish.

2. The SLF accept this as the norm, wearing headphones, reading their paper, picking their noses, chatting or whatever comes to mind rather than watching/ listening to the safety brief.

The sole guardians of the whole operation are usually the crews, both flight deck and Cabin. They try, and usually succeed, to do their best in very challenging circumstances; getting little support from management (see 1above) and no respect from the SLF. (See 2 above)

Most of the time it bumbles along OK until something goes wrong, say an unplanned evac. Then all hell is let loose, SLF videoing it on the their phones which should be off but frequently aren't. The press (oh dear), sensing a scoop, construct a "we were all going to die scenario", and subsequently the pax, sensing a claim for "compensation" as "we were all going to die." It was in the papers!

If we recall the BA 777 crash at LHR, next day, the crew were treated as heroes; full press coverage with the Captain and FO paraded in the full glare of BA's headquarters. A similar incident with a LOCOs and what happens?

[galwaypilot]

Ah yes FR had a duel engine failure on short finals due to multiple bird strikes. It's barely mentioned... I do agree that the CC are treated as sales dolls. But in saying that any emergency situations that have arisen in the two loco carriers I have worked for the CC have dealt with it very well. I had the opinion at first they were a little dim. I was surprised and well I do believe they deserve respect. However I agree with the point above. Managers above them see them as a sales tool. Primarily!

[Pozidrive]

Hope this isn't a dumb question.


With reference to the UK, are cabin crew licensed by the CAA, with a statutory "syllabus" of the training required for the safety role?

[Lancelot de boyles]

in the two loco carriers I have worked for the CC have dealt with it very well


Q. How much is that down to previous experience learned/earned in other carriers, and brought across to be inherited by the lo-co?

I ask, because in a number of cases that I have experienced, a very experienced CC has taken the required action, thus halting the sequence of events that would otherwise be a major problem.

I was seriously disappointed when cabin crew briefings on safety related items lasted for less than ¼ of the time allotted to sales, and the current 'prime' product.
And that is the norm in many places.

[Piltdown Man]

Pozidrive- Cabin crew are not licenced. But they do have to undergo specified training course. On completion they have to demonstrate by examination that a minimum level of understanding has been achieved. Just like pilots.

To the rest of the contributors in this thread may I say thank you. The subject of passengers and their safety is getting the input it needs. The complicated problem of briefing modern passengers and then getting them to comply with safety instructions when necessary will be a tough nut to crack. Unfortunately, like all complicated problems the solution will not be simple. Issues such as respect (or lack there-of) for others, unrealistic expectations by members of the public, inaccurate and poor researched reporting by the media, poor back-up by the legal system, lack of realistic oversight by the regulator and near the top if this incomplete list; a cynical lack of focus of what being a member of cabin crew is all about by virtually everybody who comes into contact with them.

I fear however, we will only move towards a solution when we start maiming and killing people. Our only hope of a rapid solution is that a charter flight full of politicians gets into distress.

[Pozidrive]

Thank you Piltdown Man.


I didn't know if there was a statutory qualification or an NVQ.


I am aware of the situation at sea. The difference here is that certainly on cruise ships there is more time available for safety drills. Also incidents develop over a longer timescale than an emergency in the air?


Shorter ferry crossings are probably a better comparison - a loudspeaker briefing, which may be easily ignored.

[Aluminium shuffler]

RYR cabin crew carry a licence, but I don't know whether that is an IAA or just a company thing.

I would dearly love to see a change in terms - if they were called cabin safety crew, then it'd cause a change in mindset towards (and in the cases of the small minority of their more immature members, by) them. In the same way, I hate being referred to a Flight Deck - it is a deliberate misnoma that encourages others to dehumanise us and think of as as an aircraft component rather than a trained professional. Call the cc safety crew and I reckon it'd change passenger attitudes quite quickly and management attitudes too, eventually.

[fa2fi]

M84. You know it's funny, I was crew for a LCC. All equipment was checked at the start of every shift and handed over to the next crew too. If you didn't see the next crew you checked all safety equipment. Sorry but a plane full of pax is not the time to be checking you have the correct number of first aid kits, or that O2 bottles are stored correctly. If you have a plane full of pax, then you need to give em your full attention and maintain situational awareness, and not be faffing about.

You seem to have some beef with the LCCs. You missing the days or airline regulation? Isn't it time you got over that?

[Golf_Seirra]

To me the big problem is we are trying to educate the average flying Joe within a very small window during the initial brief. What it requires is a more detailed audio visual brief. Better animation or actual "live" condition shots to explain anything from donning on a life jacket to cabin filled smoke evacuation.

This process does not have to just take place once just before take-off. How about ongoing education...if we educate the mass flying public, the system as present, can cater for the first timers.

We could have safety snippets during your movie...irritating yes, but driving the message through...while you are having your on-board meal.... how about ads on the Discovery channel...

I suspect we have a culture of not wanting to upset our all important paying guests. Strange, when most reality TV shows now-day's delight in participants being either degraded or made to feel really uncomfortable....sounds familiar to air travel.

Companies now believe that the current briefing system is the best we can do.....in all fairness, it is far off the mark ( no disrespect to the safety guys who put a lot of effort into the background work & R&D ).

How about a TV show where the participants battle the elements and fellow competitors to exit the mangled, burning and obstacle ridden wreckage for a cash prize ( or in LCC terms, a free ticket to Malta ) ?

Come on Richard, you up for the task ?

[fa2fi]

I see EK have just had an evacuation. Full service airlines evacuate! Who knew, I thought it was just LCCs who evacuated.

Well, what do you know their pax evacuated with their bags, despite their fancy safety video and mightily superior cabin crew, the likes of which us mere LCC crew can only aspire to.