Is it time for new mandatory rules for seat pitch and width on all passenger planes?

[chefrp]

This article was in the NY Times today, summing up the state of commercial flying in the United States. Cramming SLF into their seats is becoming the norm.

http://www.nytimes.com/upshot/


Question is.....is this safe?

Also is it time for a new business model that makes money from a quality product, instead of this business school scheme that completely disregards passenger safety and comfort?

And finally should all passenger aircraft have minimum pitch and width requirements based on acceptable safety and comfort standards for the 21st century?

Lets start a discussion and let the bean counters know how we feel!

:mad:

[lomapaseo]

Lets start a discussion and let the bean counters know how we feel!


Fair enough

1 write to the airline and express your feelings

2 then don't fly that airline unless they change or you manage to purchase a better seat

3 if we all act together in this in not flying these airlines they will change

4 it would take at least 15 years to get a new rule through.

meanwhile I intend to use my ability to upgrade to better seats and avoid taking a bus while the items cited above are taking hold.

[chefrp]

truth be told, I am an American living in Asia... so I fly Thai, Singapore etc...

which means I fly in relative comfort. But it makes my skin crawl to hear what Americans accept as service these days.

My wife and I do all we can to avoid flying United home on our leave...haha!

Any ideas on a new business model??

[ExXB]

American Airlines used to offer more legroom in economy several years ago. They found that given the choice, people will buy a ticket at a lower price on a competing airline rather than pay a little bit more for more legroom.

You do have a choice, you can pay more for economy+, business or first.

I'm 168cm and weigh 66kg. I don't need a bigger, wider seat and I would not be happy paying more for my airfare just to satisfy larger people than I.

Edited to add. There are rules relating to the the maximum number of passenger seats on an aircraft. I don't think anyone is proposing that these rules be liberalised.

[Laarbruch72]

Lets start a discussion and let the bean counters know how we feel!

Everyone's been letting bean counters know how they feel for decades. What they felt was that they'd much rather have a cheap ticket with less legroom rather than an expensive one with more legroom. As ExXB alludes to, the airlines with the cheaper tickets were consistently winning the sales wars, and to offer such low prices they had to cram in more seats. In other words it's customer driven.

[PAXboy]

I agree but, unfortunately:


Human beings always want more for less money and less money always wins
The economies of (almost) the entire Western world are in recession or teetering on the brink.
They will remain so for at least another five years.
They are unlikely to ever recover to the times of 1995~2007.
Humans still want to travel like it was 1995~2007 and so are choosing to go for the cheapest seats.
Airlines seats are a bargain for what you get.
Most airlines are not making money and have to make further cutbacks.
Their P.E. / Biz / First pax remain a small percentage, crucial though they are.
Charging their economy customers more is just not viable.
Sorry

[Metro man]

I do my best to avoid the B777 in 10 across configuration. However I'm an airline pilot and know something about aircraft. I also avoid the first row of over wing exit seats on A320, which don't recline.

Fortunately I can afford to choose more comfortable airlines to fly on and know about web sites such as Seat Guru.

Some people care only about the price of the ticket, hence the massive growth in low cost airlines. Premium economy is being increasingly offered by more airlines to cater to those who can't pay four times the economy fare for business class but can still pay a premium for some degree of comfort.

There are options available for those who want and are prepared to pay for more room.

1. Better airline
2. Pay for exit row seat
3. Pay for Premium economy class
4. Pay for Business class
5. Pay for First class
6. Charter private jet

The lowest available economy airfares are incredible value for money, greater comfort comes at a price. You won't get The Dorchester at Premier Inn prices.

[glendalegoon]

Face it, if you make things mandatory, you might as well re regulate the whole US airline industry.

And that means regulating prices for tickets.

THE PEOPLE VOTED and selected cheap. Not service, not safety, not anything but cheap.


SO, like others said: You want more room? PAY FOR FIRST CLASS. PAY FOR TWO SEATS INSTEAD OF ONE.

And quit complaining. IF YOU HAVE a medical condition like the man claiming leg pain from diabetes, PAY FOR FIRST CLASS or don't fly. There are still ships from the US to France.

Quit your complaining. YOU voted for cheap airlines and by necessity they brought DOWN the quality of all airlines.

Sad. really sad.

[tdracer]

Glendalegoon, I couldn't agree more.


This is what happens when people shop by price, not by value.

[ExXB]

Question is.....is this safe?



I've seen nothing to suggest that it isn't safe.

[Hotel Tango]

THE PEOPLE VOTED and selected cheap. Not service, not safety, not anything but cheap.

Well, I certainly didn't!!!

[fincastle84]

If folk want to travel like cattle then let them if that's all they can afford. Nobody makes them fly with the likes of Ryanair, Easyjet etc.

I'm 193 cms tall so if I can't afford either Club or F I stay at home. I also make good use of my Avios & my BA/ Amex Premium card.:cool:

[Denti]

Not everyone in a democracy voted for their government, they still have to live with it. Same with the seat pitch. The majority voted with their wallets for the lowest possible seat pitch. Most airlines offer better seats at a premium, so it is a good idea to either pay for it, endure the cattle class if you have to, or simply don't fly.

At least in most of europe there is an excellent train system. And over here in germany in some areas going by car isn't bad either. Nothing like enjoying a convertible with the roof down at 275km/h.

[Wannabe Flyer]

On a long haul, premium economy is a small markup to pay for this comfort. What is so wrong is how much premium economy features vary across airlines. Almost like a box of chocolates.

Worst - US airlines (every aspect)
Best - air France ( seat, baggage, food)
ME airline and Asian airlines - non existent

Note: above is based on wide body long haul only. I can survive a couple of daytime hours in a narrow body LCC

[Piltdown Man]

I try to go by train or drive. Less hassle, no security, less queuing etc. I take my time, bring my own food and in a car get to choose my company. Who wants to fly?

[Metro man]

EVA Air offer premium economy as do Cathay, Thai have it on certain routes, Singapore Airlines will have it next year.

The Middle Eastern airlines avoid it to keep the differentiation between business and economy. With the big 3 M/E carriers, economy is usually pretty decent as long as you avoid the 10 across B777. I like the QATAR B777 with 9 across seating.

Unfortunately the price difference for P/E can be considerable, an exit row seat may be better value. On SIN - LHR BA premium is a similar price to Sri Lankan business class. A daytime flight on a quality airline in an exit row seat with sector times of less than 8 hours and a nights break in between on longer routes shouldn't bother most people.

Aer Lingus allow an upgrade to the economy meal for a small supplement

[Wannabe Flyer]

Premium Economy Class Comparison Chart - SeatGuru (http://www.seatguru.com/charts/premium_economy.php)

Seems china eastern has thhe best space.

[RevMan2]

Er... isn't this what we had under IATA's regime up until sometime in the 70s/80s?
And fines for serving one too many cherry tomatoes in a salad?

[surely not]

It always surprises me what people think the money they spend on an air ticket is for.

Put simply it is to travel from their place of departure to their point of arrival in a well maintained and safe aircraft. They can expect to have flight deck crew trained to fly the aircraft and cabin crew trained in all the safety aspects of the cabin. They should expect any hold baggage to arrive with them at their destination.

The ticket price does not guarantee 'x' amount of personal space; only 'acceptable' passengers in the seat next to them; room in the overhead lockers for bags that should be in the hold; catering of a standard that is only found in 5 star hotels. Nor is the ticket price based on the weight/height of the passenger.

Ryanair, Southwest, easyJet, etc have introduced ways to recover the revenue they lost by pricing tickets at below the true cost of the ticket for the flight. So they have invented charging for window seats, charging for extra leg room, charging for bags carried in the hold, charging for food pre booked or sold on board, charges for priority boarding etc etc. These add on charges mean the cost of the ticket is probably going to work out the same or more expensive than if you fly on a 'with frills' airline.

Maybe one day they will fly and regulate oxygen supply via the drop down masks which you will have to pay for...................... I hope that is merely an idea from my twisted humour and doesn't become reality!!!

[DaveReidUK]

Put simply it is to travel from their place of departure to their point of arrival in a well maintained and safe aircraft. They can expect to have flight deck crew trained to fly the aircraft and cabin crew trained in all the safety aspects of the cabin. They should expect any hold baggage to arrive with them at their destination.

If it were that simple, airlines could save massive amounts of money as there would be no need for them to advertise with the aim of differentiating their product from the competition's.

[surely not]

I wasn't answering what the airline includes in the ticket cost, I was pointing out that those passengers who claimed that their personal space they had paid for was being violated by someone reclining their seat in front of them were incorrect and it wasn't part of the ticket cost.

[PAXboy]

SLF have come to expect that their space remains the same and may forget that, when they recline their seat, they chaneg the space config of the person behind.

When reclining it is an idea to move the seat back one third or one half of it's travel and then wait. This give the person behind time to adjust items on their tray etc. After some minutes, then recline the whole way. What tends to spark the upset is a seat going from upright to back in one go at an inopportune moment.

So the answer is synchronised reclining. The 787 has electric adjusted windows, now put it on the seats. When a whistle sound is played on the PA, all seats will recline by exactly the same amount. When 'rest time' is over, the seats will return to the upright position.

Simples. :}

[PIK3141]

Even simpler, certainly for shorthaul, is the Ryanair solution of no reclining seats. Solves the problem nicely.

[ExXB]

Any many of EasyJet's aircraft are so configured. (More U2 than DZ though). I much prefer not having that option.

[chefrp]

ExXB,

I've seen nothing to suggest that it isn't safe.

It was a rhetorical question. I would say the incidents with angry passengers fighting over reclining seats is an unsafe situation on a commercial aircraft in mid flight....no?

:rolleyes:

[chefrp]

THE PEOPLE VOTED and selected cheap. Not service, not safety, not anything but cheap.

That may be true, and many people admit to it as well, they are the same people who get stuck in the middle seat of a 10 seat across 777ER for 12 hours cause they are stupid too! :{

I think at this point though, the bean counters have figured out how to charge more for less. Yes, the seats are cheap...but they are no longer worth the price. They are not "that cheap"!

People have just become use to **** service....

[WHBM]

American Airlines used to offer more legroom in economy several years ago. They found that given the choice, people will buy a ticket at a lower price on a competing airline rather than pay a little bit more for more legroom.
Ah, I remember this. And the myth about its disappearance.

The scheme was American Airlines MRTC - More Room Through Coach. Yes, they removed a couple of seat rows and repitched the remainder to give everyone a couple more inches. There was an extensive supporting campaign. In all truth it didn't seem to have an impact on AA fares.

Then it was withdrawn, along with all sorts of justifications about how nobody took the extra room into account.


That was a complete fabrication. I can tell you it was the No 1 topic of conversation between seatmates for the several years that it was in force. US travellers in particular really picked up on the concept and said how they liked the better feeling.

However, at HQ this was all ignored by beancounters, who have the bizarre idea that if you are getting say 80% load factors (sounds reasonable) then in a 300 seat aircraft you will sell 240 seats, but if it now has 320 seats you will sell 256 instead. In my experience no AA flight during this time approached 100% full, nor did one when they stuck the extra seats back in (actually they put more back in than they initially took out). The fares didn't noticeably change relative to the competition either.

But then this was all come up with by US airline Yield Management analysts, who cheerfully manage to actually sell about 10% of the First Class seats at the published fare, and then let the rest go to free upgrades of Y passengers who happen to have done a lot of flying - who are of course exactly your target market for paid F seats in the first place, but travellers now realise they don't need to do so. In fact on less well loaded US flights, F now has a downside, there can be plenty of space back in the Y cabin with only two or even one passengers per seat bank, which lets you spread out, while up front in F every seat is taken and those odd F passengers who actually paid the big fare find they are surrounded by those who just Yadda Yadda Yadda relentlessly about how they "scored" another upgrade on a Y fare.

[Heathrow Harry]

ahh remember the 60's & 70's? When every airline flew accordingt o IATA rules - same food, same movies, same seat pitch, same fares??????

no competition

when people like Laker, SQ and a few others tore up the book everyone thought it was great

[chefrp]

Check out this new Airline out of Singapore. They are purely long haul, fly wide bodies. This business model could work in the USA. But they may need to fly 777 or A330 across the country...that would be nice!

Economy Class - Budget Flights Tailored Your Way | FlyScoot.com (http://www.flyscoot.com/index.php/en/in-flight/economy-class.html)