Disgraceful Balpa and Unite Unions sold out bmi Crew!!

[boac_boi]

TURBULENT times at the Pilots’ union Balpa over the take over of BMI by British Airways.

Not only will many BMI pilots lose their jobs as BA plans to axe 1200 of there 2700 BMI staff, but those who are left say they’re are being short changed by their BA “brothers” in the union. BA pilots are not prepared to integrate BMI staff into their to their comfortable career structures- based on length of service and experience- instead placing those who survive the cull at the bottom of BA’s seniority list.
Thus BA staff are accused of seeking to capitalize from any career and benefit opportunities arising from the merger at the expense of their BMI counterparts.
Disgruntled BMI pilot’s hopes that Balpa would stand up for equality have been dashed, leading to claims that it is turning a blind eye because of “financial and vocals” clout that BA pilots- the biggest group- with in the union.
Balpa denies the claims, maintaining that the deal brings other BA benefits to BMI pilots and, in response to claims that integrated career structures were the preferred options for mergers and take- overs, listing other deals where no such integration took place. Fancy that; they all involved BA.

A very interesting read, this was published in the latest copy of Private eye!

BMI crew vs British Airways

"THE acrimonious fallout from the 2012 merger or British Airways and BMI, which saw some very non-comradely behavior on part of the BA pilots and their union BALPA towards their new colleagues (Eye 1312), continues.

Ex-BMI cabin crew in Belfast and Manchester, who lost their jobs at the old BMI regional bases around the UK, are currently pursuing employment tribunal cases against both airlines. Like the pilots, they claim they are being forced to go it alone because they were "sold out" by their trade union, which in this case is Unite.
In fact, in a novel application to the tribunal in Belfast this week, Catherine Horgan is seeking to add Unite as a defendant to her claim for unfair dismissal against the airlines, claiming that London based union representatives colluded with her employer. She says there was a conflict of interest because the London branch was dominated by BA staff who, like their pilot counterparts, were anxious to protect their career interests and seniority.
The trade union negotiators, she says, had also secured management jobs for themselves. She alleges that not only did her London “brothers” fail to support, consult or communicate with 100-plus BMI crew in the regions, but they also deliberately excluded the regions from a crucial ballot on new terms and conditions thrashed out between the union and BA.
Thus jobs for London-based crews, where unite has a huge membership in its own special BA branch, BASSA, were secured early in consultations, while those in the regions were left high and dry. Internal documents suggest that when the union’s (and indeed BA’s) initial legal advice went against self-preservation interests of BASSA staff, the union hired new lawyers in an attempt to thwart the BMI staff employment rights under TUPE rules (transfer of undertakings, protection of employment) which safeguard terms and conditions when staff transfer to new employers.
It won’t be the first time the courts have heard allegations of an airline union selling out its members, with a judge in one earlier case commenting on BA’s “rather unusual” relationship with its trade union branches.
Ms Horgan’s tribunal case is similar to those due to be heard in Manchester next January. Twenty-eight ex-BMI staff lead by Paula Spiers, the former Unite shop steward at Manchester, are variously alleging breach of contract, unfair dismissal, and sex and age discrimination. They say they were not, as BA claims, made redundant and instead were replaced by BA “Mixed Fleet” crew based in London, some of whom were recruited during the redundancy consultation.
The airlines and Unite dispute their claims.
Interestingly, Unite did bring a case for unfair dismissal in Belfast on behalf of 8 BMI crew in January- and lost. A delighted BA then tried to get Catherine Horgan’s claims dismissed on the back of the ruling, but failed. The airline also tried to persuade the tribunal in Manchester to strike out those claims- but failed again. Watch this space!

[cessnapete]

If your Employer goes bust, BMI, surely you are lucky to be taken on by any buyer of the defunct business. BMI had been loosing money for years. You are obviously going to be somewhat disadvantaged by the established staff in the other business.
You surely can't expect BMI pilots to slot in ahead of long service BA pilots.

[slip and turn]

Oh my goodness, I see that total ignorance of the law still reigns above enlightenment in this dog still eat dog world we inhabit. So if you are along for the ride with an acquisitive employer then you expect to feed off the spoils and let the hopeless and hapless starve? Survival of the fattest, eh? You think ...

Makes me wanna puke ...

Seems we are overdue a culture reset in some quarters.

As boac_boi says, Watch this space!

[Brenoch]

Edited due to...

[sudden twang]

Can you provide a link to where it states that any pilot at BA ex BMI or not is going to lose a job? I thought BA are currently recruiting FPPs and DEPs.

[TURIN]

You surely can't expect BMI pilots to slot in ahead of long service BA pilots.

Why not?

BMI Engineers "slotted in" ahead of long service BA staff.

When I say slotted in, what I mean is under TUPE BA engineers were made redundant! :mad:

[Longtimer]

under our democratic system, yes even in Unions, the majority rule and that is exactly what we are seeing here... Perhaps wrong, but under one vote per member, this outcome is not surprising.

[ManaAdaSystem]

What does the law say on this matter?

BMI going bust, and you expect a 747 command in return? It is BA taking over BMI, not the other way around.

[BuzzB]

British Airways Line Pilots Association......BALPA.

Same old same old as many of us know to our cost.

Never been any ambiguity as to where their loyalties lie.

[seniortarget]

BA connect were loosing money, Flybe took them all on and integrated the pilots into the seniority list 1 for 1. BA connect pilots were also given a gift of £3000 during the transfer, Flybe pilots were given nothing.
BALPA said the integration of the seniority list was the law and it had to happen.
Funny how quickly they can change their minds when it suits them :rolleyes:

[ACMS]

Yep some people really do dream.......

I guess there is nothing to stop them wanting.......:D

[Basil]

you expect to feed off the spoils and let the hopeless and hapless starve? Survival of the fattest, eh?
Bit emotive don't you think?

[wiggy]

Oh dear, can't speak for the ground staff, cabin crew, BASSA/UNITE because I'm not sure not sure what they did - but on the whole it's that part of the workforce that seems to be the subject of the Private Eye piece.

As for those pesky BA pilots ba_boi has dragged into the argument, I think he's remarkably uninformed, either that or I guess myself and many others must have imagined BA BALPA "ring fencing" a certain number of Long Haul commands for ex-BMI pilots.............and that whilst there might have been a few unfortunate casualties during cross over training, far from laying off BMI pilots, BA is now recruiting.

Perhaps the thread title should read "Disgraceful Unite/BASSA sold out BMI crew" and should be placed in the Cabin Crew section of Pprune, but I guess some will never let the facts get in the way of a good rant about the pilots.

[Dogma]

Agree on the BMI pensions stuff and lost assets.. But that's about it. I'm sure Monarch Pilots would love to be taken over by a bigger airline right now. The BA opportunity was an important one for BMI

Is it true that BA want to dispose of short haul to Veuling?

PS I'm not in BA

[Basil]

Perhaps a little historical information would put the present in context.

In the seventies, when BOAC and BEA were amalgamated into BA, two other companies, Northeast and Cambrian, were also included. The seniority lists were integrated on the basis of Date of Joining.
Following the amalgamation, routes were dropped and fleets reduced. BOAC and BEA first officers lost out on time to command. Some of the Cambrian and Northeast captains did not have the seniority to retain a command in the new and much larger BA but 'redress training' back to the RHS took time and was received with bad grace by one or two who should have been grateful that they were now BA employees.

ISTR British Caledonian pilots were treated in a similarly agreeable manner (for them) when B-Cal was taken over by BA.

When Dan Air was taken over by BA the story was different. Those who were not qualified on the appropriate aircraft were not offered employment. Some Dan Air pilots had voluntarily forgone the conversion to which they were entitled and were, therefore not offered employment; a signal lesson to me, at the time, in looking after one's own career!
I cannot remember if those ex DANs fortunate enough to be employed were integrated into the seniority list or joined at the bottom; I seem to recollect the former.

Which brings us to BMI. AFAIK, the BMI pilots became BA pilots but joined at the bottom of the seniority list. The BMI captains retained their commands. If I had been one of them, I'd have been happy with that.

A lot of one's whole career depends partly on competence and largely on luck and choices made without the benefit of a crystal ball. I've had colleagues join British companies which went bust with no BA safety net and others who joined, e.g., Emirates, right at their inception when the rest of us were saying "Ooh, err, new startup - risky." You pays yer money and takes yer chance.

[sky9]

In the 1980's I tried to get a national seniority list based on date of joining at a Balpa conference. I was accused of being divisive, shame it wasn't introduced.

[TopBunk]

I cannot remember if those ex DANs fortunate enough to be employed were integrated into the seniority list or joined at the bottom; I seem to recollect the former.

Ex Dan pilots joined at the bottom of the seniority list. All now have the seniority for a BA longhaul command.

[Basil]

Cambrian and North East skippers went under the title of Klingons if memory is correct .
Yes, recollect, some time after the amalgamation, having some people in to dinner.
I was explaining the formation of BA to a non airline guest and used the 'K' word.
A polite cough from the other end of the table alerted me to the fact that one of our guests was ex Cambrian :O

[BOAC]

I seem to recollect the former. - the latter for seniority (26 year Captains below the latest BA cadet entry), the former for staff travel/DOJ.

The lesson for all is: 3000 BA pilots in BALPA against 120 in DanAir at acquisition (change as appropriate). A quick look at 'history' would have dissuaded the BMI pilots to believe anything else!

[Basil]

TopBunk, Thanks for clarification. I couldn't accurately remember.
I DID feel sorry for those who'd turned down their conversion to help Dan Air :(

[seniortarget]

Basil,

The Dan-Air pilots that were not offered employment when BA took them over were also not offered redundancy. BA chopped up Dan-Air and kept the 737's and it's pilots. Some of the pilots on the other fleets had been with Dan-Air and BALPA for over 30 years and were advised by BALPA that what BA were doing was correct :ugh: The out of work Dan-Air pilots formed a pilot action group and against the advise from BALPA took BA to court....and won.

In my 30+ years in aviation one lesson I have learnt is that BALPA is and always will be primarily a BA union, everyone else is treated as second class.

[ONE GREEN AND HOPING]

Basil......Technically, BA and BCal was a merger. 12.50 per share.... ta.

[BOAC]

took BA to court....and won. - and they got reasonably 'big bucks' but are, of course, sworn to secrecy.

[J.O.]

Was BMI shut down? No it wasn't, meaning the drivel saying that they could have been on the street instead is just that. Drivel.

Pilots are no better than animals in the wild where survival of the fittest rules. It's too bad given that we're all human beings who "should" be capable of recognizing and valuing the contributions of our colleagues from the other outfit when such mergers and takeovers occur. Oh but to be given the chance to to place the shoe on the other foot just to see how it would feel ... :=

[Private jet]

Of course. In any mechanism of human society what is deemed right and wrong is coloured very much by a persons situation and the perspective it generates. It works both ways too. You'll never change that i'm sorry to say.

[seniortarget]

BOAC,
I would hardly call it 'big bucks', it just about paid the bills for 6 months. It would have been far better to have an income particularly as it was 2 weeks after my first born :mad:

[Dan Winterland]

British Airways Line Pilots Association......BALPA.

Same old same old as many of us know to our cost.

Never been any ambiguity as to where their loyalties lie

Wot he said.

[Megaton]

The BACC is the British Airways Company Council. Who do you think they should be representing? :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Juan Tugoh]

Oooh goody. It's been a while since we've all the chance to listen to to the Dan a Air guys whinge on about how evil BALPA and BA are. I've missed these pointless rants, they remind me of a bygone era. Can we also have some Trident tales too - those must due an airing too.

[BOAC]

I would hardly call - me neither, hence the reasonably 'big bucks'. Still, at least you proved BALPA's valued legal advice wrong. Not that it was 'influenced' by the BACC, of course................

[Megaton]

This is a news story about a cabin crew dispute and is being used to rake up old animosities. It should be moderated to where it belongs.

[wiggy]

This is a news story about a cabin crew dispute and is being used to rake up old animosities. It should be moderated to where it belongs.

Yep, agreed. Whilst for some reason the OP couldn't resist a rant about BALPA the "Private Eye" article is very much about UNITE's behaviour, something the OP and the moderators seem seems to have either missed or want to play down.

[blind pew]

Juan...yes those were the days where you could vote a colleague onto the council and he would sell you out and join management whilst the ink was drying on the agreement.
And they could call you a count in front of Union witnesses ...pay the court and slander costs and be back in the office on Monday.....
Now what would you like to hear about the Trident...what a wonderful operation it was and all of the crashes were bad luck?
Or about the debutants, suspenders and Nicky nightstops?

[cvg2iln]

Yes, more of this please.

I agree with what he said. Attacking and attempting to kill each other with knifes and forks because the dynamics of seniority list integration is a zero sum game is a said deal - and sometimes even occurs 'in company' when the path to the front seat(s) opens to less than traditional candidates. Very Darwinian, very tribal. No surprises.

Suspenders and night stops. Now there's an avenue worth pursuing.

[Yankee Whisky]

Reminds me of AC and CPA. It is unfortunate that the looser airline, given a chance to survive in a smaller role, is the ideal fallback position even if some employees loose their jobs. It could be worse !
It could be argued that, for quite some time, employees of the loosing airline
saw the writing on the wall and could have looked for work elsewhere.
It is my experience that loosing a job is a fact of life when business goes in the red and that is the chance we all must learn to take, as do the entrepreneurs having their personal capital committed, and grin and bear it.
It also indicates that aircrew should be prepared to accept work other than flying airplanes when the **** hits the fan ! It is called thinking ahead..............;);)

[Vipersrt10]

This whole story reminds me of the Martinair takeover by KLM. The exact same thing happened and the former Martinair pilots are still fighting in court to get their seniority back! Maybe ex BMI pilots should try to contact ex Martinair pilots.

[FANS]

The harsh reality is that the BMI crews are fortunate to be employed, especially by a leading airline, given the basket case BMI became.

[Flying Clog]

And they didn't even have to go through the rigorous BA selection process - lucky chaps indeed!

:E

[A and C]

Without doubt the Ex-BMI guys are lucky to still be employed and as such the terms are better than most who have had a company go bust under them, however there is anecdotal evidence that some of the old time BA trainers are on a BMI pilot hunt in the Sim.

There are tales of BMI guys getting a very hard time at OPC's & LPC's that is not justified by the normal professional standards, if this is the case I predict a very big legal case just over the horizon.

Before the Nigel mafia start on me I shoud point out I am not ex BMI and have never had any connection with BMI, I just object to abuse of professional standards to further a political end.

[Locked door]

Absolute codswallop. The BA training department has an anonymous feedback loop that prevents any such behaviour. They're far too professional to single out individuals anyway. Any under performing pilot will be given a hard time regardless of history.

I know a significant number of the ex BMI pilots struggled on conversion, it might be better to ask why.

[wiggy]

There are tales of BMI guys getting a very hard time at OPC's & LPC's that is not justified by the normal professional standards,

TBH there are also tales of BA guys, even "long term" ones, and yes even P1's getting a hard time in the sim, and there have even been downgrades from Left to Right, but in my experience when you get to hear both sides of the story you often find that the trainer(s) had a point.......

I can only talk for the Boeing side of things but in my experience the trainers are pretty objective and the system (the likes of the feedback loop Locked Door refers to) tends to sort out any overly zealous individuals...

[cessnapete]

You demean yourself with comments like that. Some ex BMI pilots did find the BA sims hard work, nothing to do with being given a hard time.
I bet some would have failed the BA recruitment procedures as well. As would some pilots from any background.

[cockney steve]

Others have briefly touched on a major issue....It is "the world owes me a living"
mindset.
Sorry guys and girls, your parents lied to you.
The truth is, from the point where the company is losing money, It's subsidising you, your job and your family Yes, charity....Why?....Well, if they can fund the business for long enough, they hope to turn the financial corner and every one's happy.

The business of takeover is somewhat complex. the easy way would be to let the ailing airline go bust, buy any the assets from the liquidator, needed for expansion to fill the market gap, take on new staff, cherry-picked from the unemployed pool and away you go, without any Legacy obligations or liabilities.

The only upside I can see, of rescuing a failing company, is that the operating infrastructure is already in place.

NOW! WAKEY WAKEY AT THE BACK :p The infrastructure does not work properly, otherwise the firm would be making profits...so, it's inevitable that "dead wood", duplications and unneccessary staff will be culled.

The rowing over seniority, perks and the like, is just sowing the seeds for killing-off ailing businesses and allowing vultures to exploit the carcase....staff will be reliant on Government safety-nets, as it's likely the bean-counters had already hocked everything to the eyeballs in order to try to stave off bankruptcy.
you can't take anything out of an empty pot!

It's a sickener , to lose your job and have to start at the bottom again, conversely, it's equally galling to work hard, toe the Company line, do your best to be a model employee and loyal company-man, and what's your reward?- some bugger slots above you in the rankings, having not gone through the same , rigorous procedures to "get on board", never done a thing for the Company and they're treated better than you, purely because they worked for an ailing employer.
Life's a bitch and then you die!

[FANS]

The Dan Air guys got let go when the UK really was in recession. Presumably it before the TUPE rules came in.

[blind pew]

In praise of BALPA and debutants
I have always been a member of a flying union and after I emigrated I became an associate Balpa member for a number of years.
Before anyone whinges about Balpa read a little bit of history starting at Jarrow.
In BEA most of us were either in the union or “invited” to join the other lot. It was a necessity. I worked on the technical committee which was designed to advance aviation safety in a way that the “authorities” didn’t. What we don’t read about is the behind the scenes negotiations – often carried out for non Balpa members by members in their spare time. It’s not a perfect system but it helps.
One of my mates had a total strike called which lead to his reinstatement after he upset “the other lot”.

Like Dan Air and BMI, BEA hamsters were sold out when BA was formed...it took many of my mates 20 years to get a command...but it gave us continuing employment (BEA would have eventually folded especially with our safety record) and moi the chance to see how the big boys flew and lived.
I never regretted it and sometimes the grass IS greener.
I don't agree with the apparent stance on Aerotoxic syndrome but one only has to look at some of the last few years newspaper articles (those which haven't "disappeared") to realise that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes which we can only guess at.

Now to debutants.
The pay for both cabin crew and Hamsters was abysmal such that the girls lasted less than a year flying and had to subsidize their salaries. Either you had a rich boyfriend or parents, fiddled the bars or “went out” with first class passengers.
We had a few luxury trips which were worth a week’s wages in allowances...Med nightstops. The best was a three day Nicosia where we stayed in the best hotel..raided the first class bar before we disembarked and started off with a room party in a 5 star suite. We generally ended up skinny dipping in the hotel pool – around 2 AM.

Unfortunately the “training fleet” took most of the cream trips – a great BA tradition - so I only got one every few months.
Did one to Tel Aviv which was so naughty that we called Athens Station on the way back to inform LHR that we were going crew fatigue.

Anyway I was part of the great experiment to put two second officers – one half trained – straight onto the Trident...as we know it miserably failed leading to Britain’s worst aviation disaster unless of course you believe the recent TV stitch up.
This put me on the Trident 2 fleet – long range machine – where we flew with the same cabin crews who were dual qualified – first with the Vanguard fleet – then the T3s. I was accepted by most of them because I spoke wiv an Essex accent, wasn’t up my a@se and many took me to be “gay” – which I wasn’t but played along with (including snogging another co-pilot at a party - really upsetting the apple cart.)

I had two friends who were stopping at the Apollo Palace on the beach in Athens the day after the T3 mid air over Zagreb. The hostie was an ex ballerina whose husband had died in a car crash. She had lost friends in the Ghent Vanguard mid air break up, Papa India and now the latest prang.
Possessed an amazing body as she still danced and exercised it regularly (trust me on this).
Following a very heavy session they went skinny dipping in the sea. Kevin nipped out first, grabbed all of their clothes and ran back to the hotel. After dressing he went to reception and told the staff, who got all their mates out to see what she would do. True to form she walked in without a stitch on, asked for her key and then took the lift (with operator) up to her room whilst being ogled by half the hotel’s staff.
Sadly she died in the Victoria Falls crash a couple of years later.
That’s the classiest story...there are many others as you would expect.

[BusyB]

Cambrian were Klingons, Northeast were Vulcans and BEA were the federation as I recall.:cool:

[FANS]

The latter part sounds a nightmare Blind Pew.

Incidentally, who paid your training costs?

[BusyB]

blind pew,

Read your book with interest as a few courses behind you. Can't agree with all of it but where personal opinions/assessments are made it would be very unlikely that we would agree on all of them.

cheers:D

[A and C]

I am very sorry but the anecdotal evidence was two trainers who's conversation at Cranebank was a bit louder than I'd should have been and was within earshot of an independent third party.

Having started an aviation carreer inside BA I found that 95% of the people just wanted to progress in a trouble free way along a normal carreer path but there was a small number of very nasty climbers of the slippery pole who would do just about anything to gain an advantage! I would hazard a guess that it is the 5% who see the BMI people as an easy target.

[Basil]

There are tales of BMI guys getting a very hard time at OPC's & LPC's that is not justified by the normal professional standards
I really do not believe that.
If there is a problem then there will be a change of instructor/examiner. Been there, seen it, done it.
Even hardline training Cathay will try another trainer/checker.
That usually sorts the problem.

When you join a different airline you do it their way. Forget the old sop and loyalty; it's their train set - JDI! (Some CX guys will get that ;))
I've seen so many people fight their 'new' system and fail.
Just jump through THEIR hoops. Good luck to the BMI guys & gals.

p.s. I recollect, at the time of the formation of BA there were the same unfounded complaints. I know for a fact of one guy who was having difficulty and two trainers of my acquaintance bent over backwards to train him to a pass standard. This they failed to achieve and, regrettably, he left.
Both trainers were very unhappy but I am sure that BA passengers expect standards to be maintained.

[blind pew]

Thanks busy...

Training costs...government...parents...below industry norm salary for first six years...salary deduction for a number of years...working in my old mans factory (and ex wife).... Not complaining about that.. It was the internal politics which led to an abysmal accident rate in BEA and probably influenced the merger negotiations.
There were a lot of anomalies when BA was formed including one guy who had been chopped who came in over his course mates on the seniority list.
BALPA did their best with the acception of the guy who was desperate to get his bum into a 747, but for me it was the best thing that could happen...to get the VC10 in part1 at 28....small fleet, great crew cooperation, old empire destinations, fantastic aircraft and no more bullsh@t.

[Basil]

Basil......Technically, BA and BCal was a merger.
I don't think so :)

[BusyB]

Basil,

Maggie wouldn't let a flag-carrier go bust on her watch so BA was told they had to merge and keep the name. Thats why British Airtours was renamed Caledonian and Airtours staff got made redundant.:(

[blind pew]

Yes I know fans...had a chat with a retired manager who told me how he demoted a mate who was abusing the system.....
The money has gone up too...started on 2grand (1971) I because I had over 250 hours...2 years SO, 2 years AFO, 2 years FO before I got to Dan Air's second year salary...after 6 years (SFO) had my interview with SR who didn't believe my salary...they started on double my gross...plus 46% into the pension fund. In those days I had over 50% deductions which went down to around 20% in CH.
But had to earn it....great fun....just missed the humour although the krauts were wicked ;-)

[Basil]

BusyB,
Airtours staff got made redundant.
Did that apply to CC? I'm ashamed to admit that I can't remember.
I flew the B757 for Caledonian (née Airtours) and certainly recollect the uniform; no tights permitted - stockings & suspender belts :ooh:

[BusyB]

Airtours operated with about 50% temp cabin crew, a lot of whom came back every year. Many of these were not re-employed and a number of permanent ground staff were made redundant as jobs were given to Bcal.

I thoroughly enjoyed my time at Airtours on 737's and classics with a gap year as CC on 73's and a selection of Tristars ( and I didn't wear stockings and suspenders, well not in Public:})

[Max Angle]

The BA training department has an anonymous feedback loop that prevents any such behaviour. They're far too professional to single out individuals anyway.Yeah right, far too professional for anything like that to have happened.

[acbus1]

The harsh reality is that the BMI crews are fortunate to be employed, especially by a leading airline, given the basket case BMI became.


...and given that they consciously joined BMI with little prospect of it ever doing anything else, if you had your eyes anything more than halfway open. To then perpetuate the initial misjudgement by remaining with BMI for year after year only adds to their recent good fortune. Just goes to show that some people achieve decent enough career positions despite their own best efforts to self-destruct.


...there is anecdotal evidence that some of the old time BA trainers are on a BMI pilot hunt in the Sim.

My own experience suggests that some ex BMI pilots should be hunted down. Their survival in BMI (and in too many instances promotion to Captain) was, I think, often down to 'the face fits' or 'the tongue licks well' than any decent piloting abilities. An oft-heard comment that BMI pilots are (or were) a 'good product' is, I think, far wide of the mark in a good few cases.

Having said that, I should add that the best pilots in BMI were some of the most capable I've encountered in a fair number of non-BA airlines.