BA 025 LHR-HONG KONG DELAYS

[gordon2uk]

I am soon to travel on this A380 flight but have noticed the aircraft is very often late in leaving LHR sometimes up to 2 hours or more. Could anyone through any light of these delays. The return flight 026 is nearly always on time if not early.

[Straighten Up]

My friends came over on this HKG-LHR on Weds and left 3 hours late after sitting on the plane on the tarmac waiting for storms to clear.

[champair79]

Gordon,


The BA25 is sometimes late for a number of reasons. Usually it will be caused by the late arrival of the aircraft from LAX or a late tow from the maintenance area. Generally, it is quite a punctual flight though. I wouldn't worry.


The BA26 is nearly always on time because the aircraft has a scheduled ground time in Hong Kong of 9+ hours. Therefore, any moderate delay out of Heathrow can be caught up on the return.


The same applies for JNB and CPT. The return flights are nearly always on time but the outbound flights from LHR are subject to rotational delays etc.

[DaveReidUK]

The BA25 is sometimes late for a number of reasons. Usually it will be caused by the late arrival of the aircraft from LAX or a late tow from the maintenance area. Generally, it is quite a punctual flight though. I wouldn't worry.Around 70% of the time, the BA25 hasn't got airborne within 30 minutes of its scheduled off-gate time, so to call it "quite a punctual flight" is stretching it a bit.

I can't comment on BA's towing performance, but its poor punctuality can't be attributed to late arrival of an inbound flight as the outbound BA25 has usually arrived in the morning from either LAX, JNB or HKG.

[lomapaseo]

Around 70% of the time, the BA25 hasn't got airborne within 30 minutes of its scheduled off-gate time, so to call it "quite a punctual flight" is stretching it a bit.

I can't comment on BA's towing performance, but its poor punctuality can't be attributed to late arrival of an inbound flight as the outbound BA25 has usually arrived in the morning from either LAX, JNB or HKG.

Given the wind I would imagine a + or - on a long haul of 30 mins against the avaerage. Then add in the petty SLF squawks that a top airline like to address before the next flight.

Of course I would expect that the departure schedule should make allowances for this to achieve at least an 80% on-time departure unless somebody has sold them an unrealistic gate time slot forcing them to make believe they will vacate at a certain time :)

[KelvinD]

I was wondering, what exactly is "departure time"?
Is it when the doors are shut, the aircraft pushes back or the aircraft leaves the ground etc?
Recent records show it has never left on time over the last 5 weeks.

[ExXB]

It's a pity that the 80% use-it or lose-it slot rule isn't based on use of the slot within 15 minutes (rather than just using the slot). Airlines, and not just BA, would have to schedule more realistically.

Expectations are everything. I can't understand why airlines publish schedules they have no hope of meeting.

[DaveReidUK]

I was wondering, what exactly is "departure time"?
Is it when the doors are shut, the aircraft pushes back or the aircraft leaves the ground etc?

"Departure time", as in STD, ATD, ETD, etc is the time the aircraft starts to move away from the gate, i.e. the start of the pushback.

Airlines typically record 4 timestamps for every flight:

Out = ATD as above
Off = airborne time
On = landing time
In = arrival at the gate (ATA)

usually referred to as the OOOI times.

[KelvinD]

Thanks Dave.

[Wirbelsturm]

Every time I've operated the HKG-LHR sector I have had to hold the aircraft on the gate or remote hold/slow taxy due to the slot pairings and arrival constraints.

The difficulty of getting departure slots out of HKG tying up perfectly with the transit times over Russia and into LHR with a scheduled arrival time of 0615am local are to primarily to blame. The stand allocation at HKG is premium and, AFAIK, the only times we can get.

If we depart too early, even flying the route at cost index 0 we would arrive only to either land before the night jet ban at LHR (landing before 0602 local) or have to take up the hold until after 0602 local, which, for fuel purposes, is why we often either wait on the gate (if allowed) or push and hold.

This particular flight is known for the mismatch of departure time, flight time and arrival slot but, despite departing late, I have generally always arrived either ahead of schedule or on schedule due to the block time versus the flight time giving plenty of flexibility to 'catch up'.

Hope that helps.

[DaveReidUK]

we would arrive only to either land before the night jet ban at LHR (landing before 0602 local) or have to take up the hold until after 0602 localThere isn't actually a "night jet ban" at Heathrow. I suspect you're thinking of the night quota, which limits the number of movements before 0600.

So, for example, CPA251 is allowed to land before 6am, but under normal circumstances CPA255 has to hold if it's early.

[Wirbelsturm]

There isn't actually a "night jet ban" at Heathrow

Sorry it's what we colloquially refer to night jet movements as. Landing before 0602(L) can and does incur the airline significant expense if the movement is not authorised or a pre planned night arrival.

[gordon2uk]

Thanks for your reply. I was more interesting in the LHR-Hong Kong sector being late. Just checked tonights 18.35 departure and it has been put back to 19.15.

[Wirbelsturm]

Very possibly due to either late inbound aircraft or, more often than not, late connecting flights into Heathrow.

Hope that helps.

:-)

[DaveReidUK]

Very possibly due to either late inbound aircraft or, more often than not, late connecting flights into Heathrow.Tonight's BA025 was airborne at 19:35, the aircraft having arrived from LAX just over 3 hours previously, around 15 minutes behind schedule.

[Haven't a clue]

I've used BA25 around 3 times a year for the past 15+ years. I can probably count the number of on time departures on the fingers of one hand. Ok possibly a slight exaggeration but I can also only recall a few where we have actually arrived in HK on time (although until fairly recently HK ATC sent you half way to the Philippines before turning back to HKG). Typical push back delay is only 30 or so minutes, which then seems to extend due to the departure congestion at LHR around 7pm.
Various reasons are given; the most frequent being the location and removal of baggage of pax who have not boarded the flight. That suggests missing connecting pax are the major reason.
And then the was the important chap sitting behind me who announced that he had left his Blackberry in the lounge and simply couldn't travel without it as it contained his itinerary and the addresses of those he was due to meet. Eventually a compromise was reached where a lounge staff member would remove the SIM from said device and bring it to him (bringing the device itself on board was a security no-no). Another 30 minute delay (it was a long walk from the then T2 lounge)...
In March the inbound 380 had an encounter with a bird on final which led to a delayed departure on a 777 at 12.00 the following day. However in my experience technical delays have been minimal.
All anecdotal and undocumented of course. Correction/clarification from those who are better informed most welcome.
But despite these delays this earlier flight is still preferable to the later BA27 as you get several hours of daylight exposure on arrival which seems to help the body clock adjust a tad quicker.

[luganao]

In my experience STD means when the doors are closed. This standard was always used by airlines I have been associated with during my career.

[wiggy]

luganao

In my experience STD means when the doors are closed.

I suspect DaveReid is correct - certainly on ACARS equipped types the ATD ("out" event/timing which gets sent to company) is the time of first brake release after all the doors are closed....(in our system doors closed time is also is logged and transmitted but it's seemingly for info only/used as an aid to chase up the reason for post doors closed delays, ATD is most definitely brakes off)

For that reason I suspect ;) the likes of BA try to get the doors closed at the latest 3 minutes before STD so that the flight crew have got a fighting chance of coordinating pushback with ground and ATC and getting brakes are off in time to trigger an "on time" departure....

.....Back to the thread : No idea why/if the BA25 now seemingly runs late..I'm sure it was always on-time when I was involved in operating it ..:rolleyes:

[Basil]

Doors closed and brakes released (whilst attached to the tug) registers as the departure time.
If, due to airport restrictions, pushback is then delayed that is hardly the fault of the airline.

I'm sure it was always on-time when I was involved in operating it
Aah, I know; back in the day ;)

[spannersatcx]

It used to be all doors closed and brakes released, but you could cheat the system to give an on time departure when in fact you haven't moved, now OUT time is when you actually move the a/c, I think 3 meters, so even moving a foot to get the chocks out won't give you the OUT time.:ok:

[Basil]

now OUT time is when you actually move the a/c, I think 3 meters
Dammit! They're on to us! Go to Plan 99! :}

[exbluejob]

Very interesting. Wife is due to depart this evening on BA025. Reading your lines about, what in my job, is called service level agreements, just shows how common the practice is of manipulating the system, to get SLA's within time and budget. :D

[BOAC]

Dammit! They're on to us! Go to Plan 99! - what are BA LHR tuggies charging these days for a 3mtr push?:)

[mixture]

Reading your lines about, what in my job, is called service level agreements, just shows how common the practice is of manipulating the system, to get SLA's within time and budget

If you want to see an art form made out of SLA manipulation just look at the London Underground.

Pretty much only drivers going on strike or power going off will cause them to admit a "severe delay" .... everything else just gets brushed off as a "minor delay" ... but most of the time they figure out how to massage the SLAs so they can call it "good service" ....

[wiggy]

what are BA LHR tuggies charging these days for a 3mtr push?

Further to the above AFAIK the OUT time trigger event is airline specific, I haven't had a chance to ask around about what we use (yet) but it's possible there's no need to negotiate with the BA tuggies and plan A may well still work......:E :D

[BOAC]

spanners may well be right, but it USED to be as you say, Plan A:ok:

[Jn14:6]

Spanners,
Not so on the 777, just doors closed and brakes released (even momentarily)
Trust me..........especially when I'm on overtime!!!!

[parabellum]

Cairo was always an interesting one, particularly at school holiday time when the teachers were going back and forth. Remember a very optimistic load sheet lady looking at me one day, with a big smile, some fifteen minutes after scheduled departure and saying, "Can we have an on time departure captain?". Yerr, right! :)


Due to slots/congestion getting an on time push at LHR going to SIN was rare but arrival was invariably on time or early.

[spannersatcx]

Spanners,
Not so on the 777, just doors closed and brakes released (even momentarily)
Trust me..........especially when I'm on overtime!!!!

As someone mentioned it may well be airline specific, ours used to be doors closed etc.

[PAXboy]

I doubt carriers would ever agree to a single, unified, understanding of 'departure' and 'arrival' because, some of them would have their timings get worse and some would have them get better. :bored:

For myself, I think that, for all the shouting about good time keeping by the kids in PR and consumer groups - the public will generally go for the lower price and accept the delays!

For all that, delays are endemic to the business and are not going to improve - particularly in the UK and Europe.