Jet Airways’ pilots both sleeping, suspended after flight plunges 5,000 feet

[AmuDarya]

Jet Airways? pilots suspended after flight plunges 5,000 feet - Hindustan Times (http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/dgca-suspends-jet-airways-pilots-after-flight-plunges-5-000-feet/article1-1252034.aspx)

[CargoFlyer11]

India orders Jet Airways to suspend pilots after mid-air dive (http://news.yahoo.com/india-orders-jet-airways-suspend-pilots-mid-air-080649154.html)

India's civil aviation regulator said Thursday it has ordered Jet Airways to suspend two pilots after a flight to Brussels dived 5,000 feet, forcing air traffic controllers to issue an emergency warning.

The Times of India said the captain was on a scheduled rest break when the plane dropped almost 5,000 feet (1,500 metres) over Turkey, putting it at an altitude assigned to another aircraft.

Air traffic controllers in Ankara had to issue an emergency warning to the co-pilot on duty, who the paper said "did not notice that the aircraft had lost altitude" because she was using her tablet computer at the time.:ugh:

[SeenItAll]

I would have guessed that based on the distance of the flight, this plane should have had three crew. Assuming that the captain was on a rest break rather than a bathroom break, that would mean that two FOs in cockpit were sleeping or otherwise didn't notice the descent.

[Stanwell]

No, come on... Didn't you read the headline - it said "plunged".
It must be true, I read it in the paper.


But even so, only 5000ft when we've still got plenty more to go?
As Captain Smith on the Titanic said... "My God, lads, where were you looking?"


A chat in the CP's office (no tea, no bikkies) for these fellows, I think.

[aviation_watcher]

Two other references -

100045647.htmlhttp://http://www.theindianrepublic.com/featured/flight-plunges-5000-feet-pilot-naps-co-pilot-inattentive-dgca-inquiry-underway-100045647.html

http://http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/jet-airways-flight-plunges-5000-feet-over-turkish-airspace/article6316761.ece

Some questions out of curiosity?

1. What is "controlled rest"? It seems quite strange one can take a nap while in the pilots seat.
2. Is it usual to have a 5000 ft plunge while on auto-pilot? - I wonder if during turbulence at 34000 ft one can dive 5000 ft without being commanded to do so.
3. Will a late investigation of FDR and CVR reveal what happened a few days ago? Especially when such an incident is possibly not voluntarily filed.

[RetiredF4]

Stanwell
A chat in the CP's office (no tea, no bikkies) for these fellows, I think.

Are you suggesting that would be the appropriate handling of this incident or are you saying that's how it will be done by Jet Airways?

Or are you suggesting that it is no big deal that in the absence of the captain (physically sleeping in the crewrest room, or mentally sleeping in his office seat) the FO is not mending the office but working on (her orivate or company issued) tablet computer?

[poorjohn]

The remains of my sadly demented brain produced a vision of the autopilots - with some anthropomorphic features - being sternly lectured by CP along with the humans. "What were you guys thinking???"

[safelife]

Maybe this happened because the 777 don't fly in ALT HOLD in cruise, as any reasonable aircraft, but instead fly a VNAV profile (level)?

Hat, coat, out...

[suninmyeyes]

"Maybe this happened because the 777 don't fly in ALT HOLD in cruise, as any reasonable aircraft, but instead fly a VNAV profile (level)?"


Although the 777 does fly along in VNAV path in cruise, if the VNAV commands a descent it will then go into alt hold unless the level in the alt sel window is wound down. So if the co-pilot did nothing I cannot see how the aircraft descended.

[BARKINGMAD]

Could this be a real live case of a P E D interfering with an aircrafts systems?


Shame to say goodbye to all those EFBs and back to paper, but NOT the Daily News?!

[Piltdown Man]

It's great to see the good old, third world safety cosh being used to beat anybody who was unfortunate enough to be on the plane. Suspend, demote, threaten, fine the useless individuals! That will guarantee this sort of thing will never happen again!

Note to procurement: Dear Sirs. Please would you supply another two dozen safety coshes as the ones we have got are wearing out through excessive use and our airline is expanding so fast we don't have enough to wallop all of the transgressors.

It is a shame that not only will many people unfairly lose their jobs and livelihoods over incidents like this but a punitive creates an environment so that threatens the company but also the lives of hundreds. A punitive safety culture will never, ever give you a safe operation. The real problems will never be addressed because the management will never receive the required information and the appropriate actions will never be taken until it's too late.

[parabellum]

1. What is "controlled rest"? It seems quite strange one can take a nap while in the pilots seat.


Seat fully back and fully reclined, headset off, speakers off, (FO headset on, in this case FO, could be Captain), possibly wear eye shades, most pilots carry them for use in hotels. Bog standard if only the captain is qualified LHS, which is often the case.

[KwikFly]

Safelife,
every reasonable -read: modern- aircraft flies in VNAV these days.
As Suninmyeyes says, be it in VNAV or any other cruise mode, you have to wind down the altitude in the altitudewindow AND select some sort of descent. Meaning, you need not one but TWO actions before the airplane will go down! Unless of course the vnav profile asks for a descent, in which case the airplane will descend to the altitude selected in the window. But they were in the middle of the cruise! Thus, unless Jet Airways flies from Mumbai to Brussels without autopilot, I see no way how this could have happened.

[tightcircuit]

Parabellum,

There is a bit more to controlled rest than that, or at least there should be.
The cabin crew should be informed that it is happening and they should then contact the awake pilot at regular specified intervals to check that all is well. This procedure is authorised in our Ops Manual and I presume other airlines have similar.

[ironbutt57]

The worst part is the FO "didn't notice"......:eek:

ALT HOLD in cruise, as any reasonable aircraft,

most if not all modern jetliners these days fly a VNAV path, but are protected by the altitude selection on the MCP/FCU...which it will NOT deviate from, regardless of altitude constraints on SIDs,STARs etc..

[andrasz]

...based on the distance of the flight, this plane should have had three crew... Not really, the route is only ~9 hours westbound, well within limits for 2 crew.

[Austrian Simon]

Hello,

The Aviation Herald had researched this occurrence and dismissed the whole story. According to radar data the aircraft, departing Mumbai on Aug 8th, was enroute over Turkey on Aug 9th at FL340 but never busted the flight level (in other words, according to transponder data always was between 33975 and 34025 feet). (The flight departing Aug 7th and being over Turkey on Aug 8th was cruising at FL320 and had no altitude deviation, too).

The Times of India, in their always so extremely reliable information (that out of several hundreds of aviation stories only as many as the fingers of one hand can count have actually been verified), claims however, that the occurrence came to light by an anonymous SMS to the DGCA.

The fact, that the DGCA reacted and opened an investigation whether there is any substance to the claims in that SMS, was taken as full confirmation of the report by the ToI and their big story now makes the rounds throughout the globe.

An anonymous SMS thus is the only foundation of this story!

[Check Airman]

Thank you Avherald for setting he record straight.:D

[SeenItAll]

Quote:
...based on the distance of the flight, this plane should have had three crew...
Not really, the route is only ~9 hours westbound, well within limits for 2 crew.

I don't believe this scheduled 9:15 hour flight leaving at 2:05am would be legal for 2-crew under FAA rules. Of course the DGCA's may differ. See ALPA, Intl. FastRead (http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/fastread/2011/FastReadNewsflash_20111223.htm)

[ironbutt57]

So the whole event was imagined?......Incredible India!!:ugh:

[Phileas Fogg]

I would have guessed that based on the distance of the flight, this plane should have had three crew. Assuming that the captain was on a rest break rather than a bathroom break, that would mean that two FOs in cockpit were sleeping or otherwise didn't notice the descent.

Only a few years ago, might still be the same, under Italian FTL's "Augmented Crew" the autopilot was/is considered to be the third pilot so two (human) pilots might be working 16 hour or longer FDP's.

[StinkyMonkey]

Attempts by Flightglobal to reach the airline and DGCA for more information were unsuccessful.

[ironbutt57]

maybe it plunged 50':ugh:

[parabellum]

100% agreed! I just covered the flight deck bit, in my last airline the CC had to come to the FD at least once every twenty to thirty minutes anyway, to see if we needed water etc. were both still awake etc.! :)

[zlin77]

When I was in Jet, it was legal for two pilots to do up to 10 hours of flight time, if at the planning stage it looked like 10 hours might be exceeded an extra crew member was called out…however I must say those early A.M. departures out of BOM/DEL for LHR/BRU were very tiring, it was not unusual for the other crew member (local) to order blankets and pillows from the cabin crew and curl up in their seat and sleep for several hours, leaving their equally fatigued colleague to press on single pilot…. :ooh:

[bucks_raj]

The news was blown by the times news network in print and tv here in India.
The entire incident is based upon the only known fact viz

"The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) got to know about this incident on Tuesday when its joint DG Lalit Gupta got an anonymous SMS about the "level burst", or uncontrolled descent."

Ha ha ha... THe only thing the DGCA here is scared about is the media!

Also the incident is approxa month or so old so the avherald investigation doesnt really stand any where...

[rdr]

Zlin, this is a normal course of action for Air India too. Even before take off, the pillows and blankets appear.
The DGCA, unfortunately is a basket case, unable to tackle the indiscipline of the crew, and within themselves.
As long as the people of Delhi are in charge, nothing will change in India, aviation wise, or as a nation.
India now has a Gujarati for PM, there is some light at the end of the tunnel, hopefully for Indian aviation.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Wow rdr that is quite a hypothesis.....what was the country thinking all this time electing people from 26 other states and territories.....

Hopefully some of the motels in the US might also improve now!

[Capt Apache]

Alert Management : While undertaking controlled rest, establish procedures to maintain alertness of non-resting flight crew members. The Captain shall inform the CCIC of the intention of the flight crew member to take controlled rest, and of the time of the end of that rest. The CCIC must establish a frequent check on the Flight crew by means of the interphone system. Preferably, and in order not to disturb the resting crew member, the non-resting Flight crew member should call the Cabin crew approximately every 20 minutes (night) or 30 minutes (day). The CCIC shall call the non-resting Flight crew member or shall make a physical check if no communication has been established in the given time.

But somebody said that if you obey all the rules you miss all the fun :}

[Sky Dancer]

This is Jet Airways at it's best. Be rest assured that the co pilot would go on to become a training Captain , not just a Captain.

[ikarus-]

Tell me more about jet's future,You know we can make lot of money from this skill :}

[captjns]

Heard there may be pay issues again...:=