Ryanair jumpseating

[galwaypilot]

Hi guys,

Does anyone have further info on the new EASA regs that are being imposed on FR re jumpseating pilots. That they have to have a ticket and a limited jumpseating destinations available to them?

[despegue]

Nothing in EASA regarding this.
Just put the jumpseater as extra crew if needed.

[Bengerman]

Maybe ask the question of some friendly Ryanair manager?

[go around flaps15]

Good luck with that.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

EASA might be interested if guys are jump seating to work before they fly maybe?? :\

[jeehaa]

Duh! And in the 500 hours extra duty to get to work / home

[fulminn]

So you guys are telling me you sleep 12 hrs before your duty...please...shut... Of course you guys are leaving at home and flying at home..apply for something in china and leave your family in europe...then give me some feedback! This apply as well if you work out of canaries and your family is in greece...

[zerotohero]

I was based in Spain for a while with FR and the major problem I saw with the jumpseating is it was not monitored for rest by the company or Ryanair (to the best of my knowledge)

Guys were jumpseating in on up to 3 flights due no directs for some then having at best 4 hours sleep then heading in to do a 2 or 4 sector day.

Then after 5 days flying earlys they would wait around or rush around to get the afternoon flight('s) home again. And do it all again the next week with the reverse onto late's.

This would lead to some very very tired looking guys in the bar/restaurant on an evening and not the sort of guy I would want sat at the pointy end when I was going home.

Of course this is just pure guess work and speculation and not to be taken as fact for obvious reasons.

[LNIDA]

Industry wide problem i'm afraid, few are lucky enough to work where they live, so for many its a commute. 17 hours and 3 flights to get home is common place for a good number.

I have heard both sides of the argument, whats the difference between someone driving 2 - 3 hours to work or sat for 2 - 3 - 5+ hours in an aircraft en route to work? personally i take the the view if your sat in the flight deck jump seat before duty because there are no other seats available then its border line duty, there is no way you can sleep or rest on a cockpit jump seat and you are immersed in aviation related noises and you can not help but monitor

I do take issues with airlines that require/allow crew to use crew channels for getting airside for positioning rather than via normal gates, its an abuse, crew/staff channels are just that and should only be used by staff on duty requiring to go airside, not for off duty staff self positioning home.

I know why it happens and I know why people do it, but its still an abuse to be airside when you have no ticket and you are not on duty, its the airline(s) that are at fault, apart from anything else you clog the C channel for people who are on duty often with little or no time to get to the aircraft or place of work.

Ditto if your positioning in uniform off duty for the purpose of using crew/staff channels

[172_driver]

If jump seating in the day before a duty, even if technically the required minimum rest is not achieved, is such an offense perhaps we should ban pilots having kids as well, or having a personal life at all. For many people a late jump seat flight is the difference between an acceptable life style and total disaster.

I think we have to balance the positives against the negatives here. A day taken away from me at home would be a far bigger stressor than not receiving text book min rest.

I know why it happens and I know why people do it, but its still an abuse to be airside when you have no ticket and you are not on duty, its the airline(s) that are at fault, apart from anything else you clog the C channel for people who are on duty often with little or no time to get to the aircraft or place of work.


I do accept the "abuse of system" thing but that we're clogging the staff channel is a dumb argument. The only crew security that I've been to that's really been clogged is in UK. And we all know why.., check ID for 2 min, remove shoes, computers, iPads, liquids and soon underwear! The fraction of jumpseaters going through is minimal in comparison to other staff. My only experience with clogged security channels is UK procedures and lack of resources.

From my friends in the US I hear no problems, commuting on any airline, even freighters. How come they get it so right? Oh yeah.. over there we help fellow colleagues not shaft them !!!

[speed_alive_rotate]

For Ryanair there would not need to be so many pilots jump seating if they were placed with more tact. When will they realise the benefit of placing their pilots as close to home as possible, less fatigue being the major reason hence less chance of accidents etc. It would benefit them as much as the pilots themselves. All just my own opinion of coarse.

[A and C]

Why would Ryanair do that ? Treating the workforce with any sort of respect is in direct conflict with the company policy of undermining individual self confidence.

This is one of the management tools used to control the workforce.

BA used this tactic in engineering for years

[speed_alive_rotate]

Hey A and C. I do understand that is their sole reason, because it just doesn't make sense to do it for any other reason. However the one thing that every airline, even the fore mentioned care about is safety. But I totally agree with what you say. I thought though there was a small shift in this and some pilots were finally getting placed in bases they have requested for years as so many adequate pilots were being lost to other airlines. All my humble opinion.

[Avenger]

There is nothing in EASA regs to prevent the use of jump seats, intact, off duty staff, travelling on ID tickets often have to jump seat to get on the flight. Actually, off duty staff are not allowed to use crew channels even if in uniform as they should pass normal security controls, larging it up in a uniform to jump the queue when you are intact a normal pax is a disciplinary offence at most airlines at BAA airports it will result in withdrawing of the security pass. I have seen many many crew from Star Alliance groups jump seating before a duty just to allow more time at home with the wife and kids. The industry assumes people are adult and responsible enough to organise their own rest and be " fit to fly".

[seasexsun]

speed_alive_rotate Hey A and C. I do understand that is their sole reason, because it just doesn't make sense to do it for any other reason. However the one thing that every airline, even the fore mentioned care about is safety. But I totally agree with what you say. I thought though there was a small shift in this and some pilots were finally getting placed in bases they have requested for years as so many excellent pilots were being lost to other airlines. All my humble opinion.


What is an "excellent pilot"? :ugh:

[JeroenC]

There is nothing in EASA regs to prevent the use of jump seats, intact, off duty staff, travelling on ID tickets often have to jump seat to get on the flight. Actually, off duty staff are not allowed to use crew channels even if in uniform as they should pass normal security controls, larging it up in a uniform to jump the queue when you are intact a normal pax is a disciplinary offence at most airlines at BAA airports it will result in withdrawing of the security pass. I have seen many many crew from Star Alliance groups jump seating before a duty just to allow more time at home with the wife and kids. The industry assumes people are adult and responsible enough to organise their own rest and be " fit to fly".

Seriously? Because pilots have to do it on a very frequent basis and most pax not? What a stupid rule. Try this in Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Germany or most other countries; you'll be invited to jump the queue. Oh wait, we're talking staff-friendly UK here.

[LNIDA]

You are clearly so stressed out and fatigued that you didm't even bother to read my post before you fired both barrels!!

We are not talking about the day before duty here or min rest what ever that is? we are talking about people positioning immediately prior to duty.

We are not talking about people in uniform walking to the front of the checking desk line and boarding first.

What we are talking about is people who don't have a ticket of any sort and who are not on duty, putting on a uniform and walking through a crew channel using (actually abusing the terms of the their ID) to pretend to be part of an operating crew to beg a lift home, again i understand the why, but that doesn't make it right or lawful, put simply if you are not on duty (flying/positioning at the behest of your employer) or in possession of a valid boarding card then you should not be airside period, it is a restricted area.

By dodging the rules you are letting your employer/service company off the hook, eventually this will go full circle and further restriction will be placed on all of us.

Adequate rest is the responsibility of the individual but by putting your self at risk you in turn put both your fellow pilot and crew/passengers at risk, so if your home life preclude proper rest, then i respectfully suggest you change either your home life or job...before someone changes it for you.

[OPEN DES]

UK:
The DFT allows pilots to use the staff channels 24 h (or 48cant remember) after/before any duty period for the purpose of going home. BALPa actually had an extract ofthis text in on of their glossy magazines. Most security staff don't know, used to carry the DFT text with me.

In most other countries you get invited to jump queues (also at security).

[speed_alive_rotate]

Sorry seasexsun, I edited my wording. I understand there is no such thing as an excellent pilot.

[Facelookbovvered]

OD

Good look with that at the likes of LHR, STN, LGW. i have turned up with a full crew in uniform with a UK airport ID, but one not issued by the above and have only being allowed airside after production of a GEN DEC

There is no way these days you'll be allowed airside through the C channel by saying it's ok GUV I'm on mi way home

If this is Ryanair we are talking about, what happens at say STN when you've flown in from BUD and you are heading for DUB? are you in uniform? do you go to the FR crew room and then walk out to the aircraft

[172_driver]

I apologize for calling your opinion dumb, but I respectfully disagree that we can't use the crew security when jumpseating. I am going through crew security every week at a major airport in UK and never hide the fact I am jumpseating. Never been a problem. Actually I used the pax security at same airport once, and was not_so_politely refered to crew security. Tell me again I am a commiting a disciplinary offence !! Unless of course security staff is talking through their ass...

What we are talking about is people who don't have a ticket of any sort and who are not on duty, putting on a uniform and walking through a crew channel using (actually abusing the terms of the their ID) to pretend to be part of an operating crew to beg a lift home, again i understand the why, but that doesn't make it right or lawful, put simply if you are not on duty (flying/positioning at the behest of your employer) or in possession of a valid boarding card then you should not be airside period, it is a restricted area.

I am sorry to say that's exactly what we are talking about, and exactly what I am doing each week to maximise my time at home with my 5 month old son. Considering I am away more than I am home every hour is valuable. What possibly make me so dangerous on airside when I am not on duty?

Many of the opinions here come from folks that either never have had to, or forgotten how it is, to commute. We are not doing it for the fun of it and anything that can facilitate the process make it a little less painful. Suggesting I should change job or country of residency, is a very naive thing, border line offensive, to say.

I understand the Ryanair way of doing jumpseating is dodgy and avoids airport taxes. But sometimes the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy is quite appropriate. Unless of course you are out to shaft your colleauges in other airlines. It's not like we are stealing your job.

If this is Ryanair we are talking about, what happens at say STN when you've flown in from BUD and you are heading for DUB? are you in uniform? do you go to the FR crew room and then walk out to the aircraft

Yes, more or less so.

[Avenger]

Forgetting the principles of all working together as " airline employees, airport staff etc etc" most airport staff don't like crew, they regard them as overpaid protected species.. however, talking specifics, if you travel on an ID ticket you are PAX, not crew. At LGW for instance when you go through normal security your picture is snatched and this is also available at the gate if they scan your passport again. It was a fact some of our off duty crew came through LGW using the crew channel, were denied boarding at the bridge by BA Staff, security was called and their passes were confiscated. They checked back through as normal pax but it took over 2 months to get the passes back. It was found in the investigation the person whom took the passes should have issued a warning to the company first and did not have the right to immediately seize the pass, but is did not alter the fact the 3 crew members could not fly for 2 months while the process was completed.
And Amsterdam? are you kidding! it's practically a strip search even if you are operating! when you go into the lanes with a boarding card you are immediately funnelled with the other pax..
On the other hand at Malpensa last week they didn't even want to see our passports as we were in uniform! the playing fields are far from level, however rules are rules..

[172_driver]

Just to clarify, Ryanair crew jumpseating is not ticketed.

[LNIDA]

I have every sympathy for your situation and the need/desire to be at home with family, this industry is littered with broken families that simply can't cope with the challenges of working away.

In my company for me to be on an aircraft legally i need to be either part of the operating crew i.e. on the roster and its duty including the pay to go with it or its an ID ticket of which we have 3 types

1. S1 this is a firm ID ticket issued by the company for the purpose of positioning from one place to another and passenger security will normally be used, a must at LGW

2. S2 this is a sub load ticket for the crew member to self position on the net work for commuting, not on duty and done by text to an automated system with a response and booking reference texted back in around 8 sec, again pax channel should be used and any jump seat maybe used except cockpit in UK airspace

3 ID leisure ticket issued by online booking system with a small cost around €15 - €20 again sub load, crew seat as per S2 above

In all cases we can pre board whether in uniform or not subject to agreement with cabin manager, but normal protocol is to disembark last after fare paying passengers


172 from what you and others have described (and i've observed) some are clearly pushing it and i think you'll find that the principle of being airside applies only on duty or with a valid ticket, further in some cases immigration rules are being violated when transiting to/from non Schengen countries, as was stated by Avenger pilots risk confiscation of airside ID's and in some airlines no flying means no pay


No one want to make this job/life balance anymore difficult than it is but i feel that if pilots are a party to 'don't ask, don't tell' it will bite them on the arse sooner or later in much the way that 'creative' tax arrangements have done for people who thought that paying some tax and social payment in Ireland
would be ok with the local tax office in another country, you/we are been used to cut some airlines costs in areas like positioning, but we take all the risk

[172_driver]

Thanks for a well balanced post. If a system like yours was in place here I would be very happy. I don't travel in uniform to jump the line, just because I have to.

As for fatigue/tiredness, my opinion is there are so many factors in each person's life affecting your readiness to fly an aircraft that we have to leave that responsibility to each individual. Sometimes I land less than 12 hours, assuming that's your legal minimum rest, before next report time. Yet I am more rested than my colleague who lives locally but had to spend the night taking care of a poorly baby.

Regarding immigration I understand there are rules in place. But considering the two biggest bases lie outside Schengen and many commutes go via them, sometimes with short connections, going from plane to plane without passing immigration and back through security may be the difference between another day spent at home or not. You can say it's irresponsible/reckless, but as close to everyone as possible that I know of do it for simplicity. If there was enforcement in place and people actually lost IDs I am sure it would change. It's a risk you take.