Time to Command 777 EK

[PitotTube]

I am thinking about joining EK. However I have been hearing rumors that the time for command now on the 777 is approximately 10 years? Is this correct?

Can anyone verify this information?

Thanks.

[EK380]

Very hard to estimate but that seems a very reasonable guess. Don't expect anything less than 8years if joining on the 777 now.

[PitotTube]

What about the guys that joined in 2012, 2013? How long wait?

[TeabagRA]

DE380 FO time to command?

[Al Murdoch]

Whatever responses you get here, please bear in mind that nobody actually knows, although they may claim to have heard it from the horse's mouth because they know someone that knows someone that knows... I hear estimates from 4 years to 10 years+, all from well informed, reasonable (mostly) people.
The unknown factor is that nobody can truly estimate the rate of attrition, and more importantly, where in the seniority list that attrition takes place. Also, nobody has any idea how world events will affect the airline industry. So take it with a pinch of salt. One thing that I think you can be reasonably sure of is that there won't be many airlines out there where wide body command is any faster than it is at Emirates.

[springbok449]

People going through command course at the moment have been in EK around 4 years... That number is slowly increasing...

[donpizmeov]

Last FO upgraded on the 777 joined May 2010. He has around 1600 pilots junior to him on the seniors list, the majority of them are 777 FOs, and there is a group of DECs towards the end of 2012. There are between 40 and 70 commands on the 777 this year, depending upon which day of the week it is.


Half of the planned fleet of 380s will be delivered by the end of this year. So when the Capts and FOs from the 33/4 fleet are included, new joiners on the 380 need people to leave to make room for their command.


It would appear that the quick commands are over.


The Don

[Trader]

True---we will never know what happens till it actually happens. So guessing is difficult.

However, the RISK is much higher at EK than many others. Maybe upgrades keep going at 4 years (doubtful in my opinion) and maybe they increase.

This 'risk' is lower at other Gulf airlines and so if a person has a choice EK should no longer be on the top of the list. Your odds are better for a quick upgrade at the other airlines.

[abZorbatheleak]

The truth is no one can say with any certainty. It depends on so many factors. I do however feel that the 3 to 4 year commands are a thing of the past in Emirates. A realistic timeframe, in my opinion, would be at about 6-8 years. I think we will see some movement within the airline as older guys decide to retire or move on and this will generate some opertunity. The bottom line is that if your motivation for coming to EK is purely for a quick command you may end up being dissapointed.

[theidler]

The group going through the 380 upgrade right now joined in the last half of 2007 and the first half of 2008. But there are some who joined in 2006 who are still F/Os on the 380. Probably due to an untimely forced transition from the 330 and still not having the hours on type for upgrade.

This is now a very large airline and past growth rates by numbers/ratio will not be sustained, many of the aircraft on order are replacements rather than additional so there is no growth of pilot numbers there. In fact much of the future growth is driven by larger aircraft not more aircraft.

If you are looking for an early command then look elsewhere in the region.

[umitatl]

And pls what about the airline which cant be named :) a330 to a320 how long i might predict to be at left seat??

[TangoUniform]

Recruiters are saying five to eight years. A lot will depend on how many leave, too. Numbers of resignations are creeping up a bit.

[Saltaire]

Time to command is naturally going to increase. Having said that EK is hiring some very young pilots like they never did in the past, so even with a 10 year upgrade their will be many captains under 40. Enviable position I'd say.

[whossorrynow]

Or... if these young pilots joined 'another' airline they would be in with a chance of upgrade by 30 years old.

It's the Ryanair effect again. Some 20 year old gets Daddy to either pay for or guarantee a loan for 100,000+. 5 years and 3,000 hours later he/she is knocking on EK/xx/QRs door.

[puff m'call]

Do yourself a big favour Pitot and don't come here!

[CaptainChipotle]

Not trying to stir the pot, but what is the actual attrition rate at EK?

Most people i fly with are on the way out, and its been that way for a while. Latest I heard was the a lot of people are talking, not a lot of people are walking...

I was keeping notes on how much I was creeping up on the sen list but lost them in a move... ...need to use my smartphone instead of old school notes.

[fatbus]

A lot of guys say they are planning on leaving and wont when they say they will.
2.5 % seems to be the number being used by HR, they also say that number really has not changed , but 2.5 % of 3700 is diffent than 2.5 % of 1000.They also said they are seeing a slight increase in guys returning to the US but not the number that some pilots are quoting.
3700 pilots at the present and not enough AC on the plan 280 AC(2021) to need @ 6500, 7 years of 2.5 to 3 % leaving or retiring. Unless attrition increares it has to be 8 + years because they just dont know.

Dont come if looking for an early upgrade

[PitotTube]

Ok, thanks for everyones honest opinion about this. I am currently a 737 Capt with a family. So I think I'm going to hang on a bit where I am.

Thanks, pt

[littlejet]

and 10 years from now you might say "Boy, by now I would have wide body command and take base with one of these heavy paying Asian carriers".
No one knows the future unfortunately

[thatwasclose]

Concerning he attrition rate. I finally wrote stuff down. I am middle of the seniority list. Since may 15 I have moved up 15 numbers . It is July 29. There are 3600 pilots or so. May is bonus month, so I think from then till now is the highest attrition, that's a guess though. A few of them where retirement. It works out to be , at least from the middle of the list 3.3% . I can't imagine it's more below me as most of them will be f/o who I am sure are waiting for their command , while the guys at the bottom 25% will be fairly recent arrivals and would make little since to leave so soon.
For future reference the guy at the bottom of the list today, is a July 28 joiner and is number 3658 . Follow him as the year goes by and presto, we get a real attrition rate.

[fatbus]

Does anyone have the real numbers of upgrades this year on the 777. Ive heard 30 to 40 for the year and we are half way through. I also here that 2015 might be a bit better for the 777 and may ever be more on the 330.

[Likeitis]

I'm in the bottom third of list and will be leaving soon but since 01jan14 I've seen an attrition rate of 3.8%. Factoring the number of pilots below me and the number I have first hand knowledge of their departure the full list attrition rate should be about 3.75%.

[PitotTube]

I'm in the bottom third of list and will be leaving soon but since 01jan14 I've seen an attrition rate of 3.8%. Factoring the number of pilots below me and the number I have first hand knowledge of their departure the full list attrition rate should be about 3.75%.

@likeitis Which year did you join? How come you are leaving?

/pt

[InnocentBystander]

Does anyone have the real numbers of upgrades this year on the 777. Ive heard 30 to 40 for the year and we are half way through. I also here that 2015 might be a bit better for the 777 and may ever be more on the 330.

First of all the financial year starts on the 1st of April. So we're only three months in and the number of upgrades on the 777 stands at 45 upgrades for the year (Compared to ~600 new hires for the year 2011), thanks to Airbus' inability to build proper doors.

Everything beyond that is speculation.

When it comes to attrition, anything between 2-5% is considered normal. Monitoring my relative position in the seniority list I'm coming in at the low end of that. FWIW.

[Likeitis]

@pt

one bucket is overflowing and there are too many other opportunities to stay where pretty much everything outside of the actual crews is crap. Crap schedules, crap medical, crap staff travel, crap accommodation, crap training or should I say checking? Besides that what was my last straw was just the continuous string of lies.

I have no problem dealing with the crap but don't piss down my neck and tell me it's raining.:=

[harry the cod]

Crap Schedules? Maybe if you're on the bus that might ring true with extensive night turns.

Crap medical? If one of your dependents needed an expensive operation then I agree, what we pay in compulsory subs is poor for what cover is provided. The option to 'opt out' should be there. Pilots cover of $1,000,000 however is not what I'd consider crap.

Crap staff travel? Been here a while now and compared to many, I think it's pretty good! Plenty out there that don't allow skippers ride in First.

Crap accommodation? All relative, even those out at Meydan say it's not as bad as first thought.

Crap training? I guess those that fail and can't be arsed to study might say that. If you think it's bad now, should have been here ten years ago!

So, with'too many opportunities to stay', I guess you'll be out of here within 6-9 months. Or can we expect another few years of your constructive feedback while you delight your colleagues for hours on end with moaning and complaining?

Harry

[ExpatBrat]

When I joined guys had 8, 9, 10 000 hours and with what I'd call more relevant time, Airbus and larger Boeing. I had 9 myself. A lot of these guys were in their 40's and had been Captains before, too. And sure, if back then it had been 7 years and upwards to the left seat it would have been a more difficult decision. Maybe not the best option.

But that's not how it is anymore and it hasn't been for a long time, starting with roadshows that would hire 4000 hour RJ guys from the States. And now...don't even get me started. But if you came here with 2500 - 3000 hours on a 737 and you're not even 30 years old yet I think you're still doing pretty well even if it takes 10 years. Where else would a 40 year old guy be left seat on any wideboy making 14 thousand a month?

And if that's not good enough for you and you still want to whine about it, well here...this one's on me.

https://yy1.staticflickr.com/1/39783_db5df8f6d1.jpg

http://https://yy1.staticflickr.com/1/39783_db5df8f6d1.jpg

[Murrenfan]

Don't know about you harry but 92 hours every month for the last 4 years seems very crappy to me...most of the people I flight with are exhausted.

[kirungi1]

harry the cod,

I'm sorry for diverting but this is top notch :D I always enjoy your posts by-the-way! I've been saying the same since.

Crap accommodation? All relative, even those out at Meydan say it's not as bad as first thought.

A name change would be justifiable; harry the EK Stoic ;) :)

[harry the cod]

Never been an apologist for this Company, never will. However, I do get tired of constant be moaning when people are very often aware of what they're getting into then bitch and moan when the 'promised' 3 -4 year upgrade doesn't materialize.

Working 92 hours every month for four years? Some months I've done 85 hours with really good trips and 15 days off. Other months it's been over 100 because sim training and classroom has no credit. That pisses me off. What also pisses me off are guys complaining about fatigue but doing f%+k all about it. The number of ASR's and Fatigue reports do not reflect what people say on line. Guys still bid for 3 man BOS, JFK and Toronto. Why? Bid to avoid and write to the Company. It's illegal what they're doing. We all come on here venting frustration but few have the balls to write a constructive email to fleet. Next time someone complains about how tired they are, ask them when was the last time they filed a fatigue report? I bet 99% don't even know where the forms are!

As for Meydan, yes, I've been up there and glad that I live out and take the allowance. But once again, the option is there. Many bought their own place several years ago when prices were depressed and have now reaped the benefits. Likeitis has been here several years, he had that option too I'd imagine. Generalising that all accommodation is crap is simply daft.

However, I agree that what's on offer today is not the same overall package that was around 10-15 years ago. That's not unique to EK. It should though, still provide a reality check to those newcomers expecting otherwise, especially the extended time to command!

Stoic as always

Harry

[gl69]

I don't ever speak for someone but with regards the Linkitis and his accommodation comment if he is an American he is spot on.
The villas the company give you and yes it is free but they are very small with absolutely no property. Americans are not use to "gardens" but acres.
Pile on now the anti American rhetoric but that is what we are use to.
Harry you are an apologist for the company. What Widebody pilot flies 92 hours a month? You are happy when you get 15 days off when a lot of Widebody pilots bitch when they get up to double digits work days.
The big clencher is how the company treats us and we can not put a price on that or convey to would be applicants and bad that really is. After all we are in the Middle East and we all know how the leaders treat their hired help.

[harry the cod]

''Tonto, we're not in Kansas anymore''

[kirungi1]

He mean't what he said that he does 92 hours a month out of passion and desire to fly a/c's and that he is not complaining. My understanding is that he is completely absorbed by this primary duty and is in oneness with it and doesn't think about time of how many hours he did last month or next month but the present (in the now). And this from a tried and tested source - been there seen all sort of man, harry.

He leaves good advice for fatigue to fleet! :ok: Venting your frustration here will only expose you - who washes their dirty linen in public?

So, come in if you want and serve your time honorably and command will come naturally.

[Calmcavok]

What Widebody pilot flies 92 hours a month?

BA long haul aren't far off that figure at the mo. Certainly on the jumbo.

[SOPS]

When TCAS has time on his hands to find pilot bags, you really have to ask....who is actually making desicions for the flight crew,

I know the answer to that question already..........

[thatwasclose]

Since July 29 I have gone up 3 numbers . Am middle of list.

[InnocentBystander]

When TCAS has time on his hands to find pilot bags, you really have to ask....who is actually making desicions for the flight crew,

When Rome was burning Nero was playing his harp...

Priorities, Priorities, Priorities...

[InnocentBystander]

Im pretty sure they didn't have fiddles in ancient rome... ;)

[Payscale]

so you mean he wasnt the guy that sat on a tin roof...?

[SOPS]

The important words are..expected and approximately........

[General Dogsbody]

"One of my acquaintances joined last month on the B777. He says Emirates has around 220 Aircraft at the moment. 300 by 2016, so how come the commands have slowed down?"

Do the simple Math, the guys getting upgraded between now and 2016 are already in the company and are here a few years already.. for guys joining now command will require a doubling of the fleet, attrition runs at about 3% and the pilot body is quite young so retirements won't be an issue in EK for at least a decade. Upgrade times are getting longer and IMHO that trend will continue.

[InnocentBystander]

Guys,

Back to the "Time to command 777 EK" topic. Quoting from the Emirates career website.

Emirates is one of the fastest growing airlines in the world operating a modern fleet of over 200 wide-bodied aircraft across a global network of more than 140 destinations in six continents. With over 300 aircraft on order from Airbus and Boeing, the fleet size is expected to increase to approximately 300 by 2016 with many more to come.

One of my acquaintances joined last month on the B777. He says Emirates has around 220 Aircraft at the moment. 300 by 2016, so how come the commands have slowed down?

FK

That's an old statement and should probably be changed. That part of the Web site is in dire need of an overhaul. It doesn't even reflect the A350 cancellation. The 777X and additional 50 A380 are almost completely replacements for A/C already on property.

I'd like to quote from a post I made back in February:

Tim Clark has stated numerous times in the recent past that he sees the airline at around 270 aircraft by 2020. We have ~210 now.

See here for a recent statement:

By 2020, we will have more than 250 aircraft serving some 70 million passengers across six continents (http://www.theemiratesgroup.com/english/news-events/news-releases/news-details.aspx?article=1403528)


Either way, it's close to impossible to estimate a time to command here. There are just too many variables at play. Come and join as F/O (And plan your financials around an F/O package) and if and when you'll get offered an upgrade be happy! ;)

[Iver]

What's the mix of 777 vs. Airbus allocations among newhires these days? Are the 777 slots picking up again?

[bigdaviet]

I have heard that some of the local FOs are leaving to go to the company we cannot mention down the road.

Anyone know if there is any truth in this? And if there is I suppose command time is one of the main reasons.

Is there any restriction stopping expats going there?

[MagicCarpet]

If you really want a command at Emirates, the best thing you can do is hire on a low cost operator that’s running fast upgrades, get your command and 3,000 hours, then come to EK as a direct entry captain.

This way you can be an Emirates captain in 5 years instead of the 10 it will likely take FOs hiring in now.

[CaptainChipotle]

Yep, a few locals are heading up the road, or at least trying to.

I'm HIGHLY doubtful you see EK hiring DEC's in the next 5-10yrs. They hired DEC's last round based on the lack of qualified (hour requirements met/interview passed) FO's. There are, and will be many FO's qualified to switch seats for a long time coming.

[MagicCarpet]

Don’t worry, there will be DECs hired again. Emirates always finds an excuse every couple years.

Then once you’re a 777 skipper, if you want to try economy class, you’ll be able to transition to the left seat of the 380. EK will always find a reason to do that too.

Keep the FOs nervous and hungry. That way they can extract more from them.

[whossorrynow]

Don’t worry, there will be DECs hired again. Emirates always finds an excuse every couple years.

Absolutely. Whenever the budgets looking a bit tight they roll them in again. The accountants think they save money.

[Panther 88]

Also other departments are losing staff (AMEs) to the unmentionable airline. The package is more to their liking than what is being received at EK. Rats leaving the ship? Shades of Gulf Air? Only time will tell.:sad:

[LHR Rain]

So that is the reason I haven't seen any Western AMEs? Only the 3rd world AMEs are left at Emirates. They are probably the only ones who will put up with all the BS going on.

[Kamelchaser]

I also hear the SFI/SFE terms and conditions are better down the road, including being treated like a Captain rather being relegated to FO status after potentially serving many years as a Capt as happens at EK.

Absolute disgrace how they treat long serving Capts who have lost their medical or get to retirement age and want to stay on as, for example, an SFE.

It's not about the money...it's about the respect that you've (hopefully) earned over the time you've been a captain in the airline.

It wouldn't cost them much, if anything, to treat people reasonably. I'm surprised anyone stays with EK under those conditions rather than heading down the road where their sim instructors are treated much better.

[fatbus]

You don't have to be here very long to realize pilots are not valued at all. Expect to be treated poorly and you won't be disappointed .

[Woopoops]

"Fast command".
Even if it was "fast command" and totally loose control of your personal life as in no leave and days off of your choice for very little reward when accounting for living in one of the most expensive places in the world.

[gehenna]

And I see in the latest diatribe that the jerks expect us to go to the transport in DXB 15 minutes before report time. More of our time taken from us without even a 'Thank You.'

[fatbus]

What's the change ?

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

JA said he expects us to be on the bus 75 mins prior to departure. Hellloooo, our legal report time is 60 mins JA.
Was in latest weekly update.

SyB.

[fatbus]

If that w as directed at me , I'll repeat , so what's the change? The bus has been planned to leave a - 75 to arr no later than -60 at the A/C( duty time), this is not a change.

[Xulu]

Your duty time doesn't start until you get to the aircraft?

[Emma Royds]

JA said he expects us to be on the bus 75 mins prior to departure. Hellloooo, our legal report time is 60 mins JA

Dubai is the least of your worries. What about the outstations where you are actually on the aircraft at -75 STD?

[Outatowner]

The change is they snuck in the extra five minutes during the runway works with the excuse that getting to the airplane 5min earlier would somehow alleviate delays from ATC and runway works as well as the usual collection of retards - excuse me, passengers- that we have to deal with.

And now they're keeping the 5min and hoping no one notices.

[CaptainChipotle]

Outta...

Im still chuckling at "the collection of retards" because its so true to many of the places we go.

I try not to get too bent out of shape over the extra 5 minutes or being on a bus 15 minutes before duty. I used to drive 40 minutes to the airport, have to park, wait for a bus to get to the terminal, deal with security, getting to the gate yadda yadda. Although I didn't leave my house 2:15 before the flight, I think the bigger issue is getting more time off AFTER duties, or waiting for the cabin crew to finish whateverthef*ck they do 40 minutes after blocking in. Just my thoughts.

[The Turtle]

CaptainChipotle....you are the voice of reason. AND my favorite restaurant!!

[BigGeordie]

Until they bring our pick-up time forward an extra five minutes I'm not too stressed about it. If your briefing and checking paperwork (licence, passport, medical blah blah) is done in time for you to be on the bus 75 minutes before departure all well and good. If it isn't, don't get on the bus until you are ready. If you miss some obscure notam about an airway closure in the middle of China saying you had to be on the bus at ETD-75 won't be much of a defense.

[Ride On]

Now getting back to the Original Topic, when is the a "Sausage Factory" going to
Re- Open...?

[The Dominican]

If you are a Yank, then sure it might seem expensive because everything is cheap in the states...

WHAT......?????? :=

In "road kill /corn country" maybe a little cheaper...., but any place worth living in the US is expensive...! In the past 10 years the cost of living in the US has skyrocketed! And don't get sick even with medical insurance :ugh:

[TopGun 24]

Hi Everyone,
Where do you think I could fit in? 9500TT, of wch 1800Hrs PIC Militay ME A/C, 5500Hrs WideBody Jet FO time of wch 3000Hrs on present A/C, looking for an upgrade to Left Seat in the near future.....Thanks

[Woopoops]

You're right, TJ, it's all relative terms. Dubai might be well below the top cities, but when it comes to paying school fees it's right there, at the very top with no signs of slowing down, same goes for rental and bills. And if you take into account eroding T & Cs, lack of lifestyle (time off, leave) you get a pretty dismal picture.

[gl69]

When I worked in the US for a major airline I was a narrow body FO. With that salary I had what I called a 3-2-1.
I had 3 cars, 2 houses and a country club membership.
I don't think there are any FOs in the world who could do that and very few captains even Widebody captains who could do that.
I have been telling all US pilots that they have to get back to the US as soon as they can not only for the money but also for the conditions.

[harry the cod]

gl69

There are plenty of widebody Captains in this World with a 3-2-1. I have one too;

3 kids
2 divorces
1 pending

Harry

[gl69]

Nice Harry

[Desert Camel]

Back to the thread


With the current 777-300 ER orders and fleet net growth, I would imagine there is a need for about 350 - 400 captains, which is probably an optimistic figure. I understand there are more than 1000 FO's at the moment.


If you join today, you will never see an upgrade before at least 2020 if not later.




Do the maths!