How could BA short haul improve?

[SLF3]

On domestic flights, the latest cost saving measure appears to involve deleting the chocolate from the biscuits. A new low. The new plastic seats are pretty grim as well.

But seriously, what could BA short haul do to improve the customer experience at no cost? As a starter:

- Ban crew bags from the cabin lockers
- Only tag a bag as 'under seat' for passengers with two bags (I now take my large carry on whether I need to or not, since I have long legs and they like to tag my brief case)
- Always have a fast track boarding line and police it
- Don't show flights as boarding when they aren't
- Have the buses on the apron when the plane shows up
- Sort out the app, which falls over way too often (this would save money)
- Offer tier points on spend as an alternative to class of travel (I now travel short haul and struggle to make silver, my spend is far higher than when I flew long haul and was routinely Gold)
- Don't scan boarding passes twice at the gate in LHR (link the security and check in computer systems)

There must be more. I am not going to ask for low cost improvements because that would just not be credible.

[mixture]

You sound like you'd do well on FlyerTalk with all your first world problems... ;)

(FlyerTalk a place I've only visited once and stay away from because I still can't believe what I read the only time I was there .... I seem to recall it being people making a huge deal of caviar not being available in BA first ... literally talking as if it were the end of the world !).

- Ban crew bags from the cabin lockers

Where else are they supposed to put them on a short haul aircraft where they've got tight turnarounds and are not going to be resting at their destination for a few days ?


- Only tag a bag as 'under seat' for passengers with two bags (I now take my large carry on whether I need to or not, since I have long legs and they like to tag my brief case)

You could take the tag off ;)

- Always have a fast track boarding line and police it

How are you sure the fast track queue isn't just full of FF flyers on a FF heavy sector ?

- Don't show flights as boarding when they aren't

I'm sure they don't do that deliberately to annoy you ! Most people are not like you and don't rush to the gate the second the status changes to "boarding". ;)

- Have the buses on the apron when the plane shows up

Not BA's fault. Talk to the airport operator or whoever runs the buses at the airport in question.

- Sort out the app, which falls over way too often (this would save money)


Its never crashed for me and its way better than many airline apps !


- Offer tier points on spend as an alternative to class of travel (I now travel short haul and struggle to make silver, my spend is far higher than when I flew long haul and was routinely Gold)

Tough :mad: .... its a frequent FLYER programme !

BA Silver is really not that hard to earn.

Tier points for money is just asking for abuse.

- Don't scan boarding passes twice at the gate in LHR (link the security and check in computer systems)

Can't say I've experienced double scanning at the gate much on the routes I fly.

I suspect the reason for double scanning is for logging independently on security and check-in systems.... both for IT security reasons as well as passenger audit reasons.

[Hartington]

Some of the US carriers (I think Delta started it and United are about to follow) are moving to a spend based FF program.

Some years ago I used some UA miles to upgrade myself LHR/ORD/DEN/ORD/DEN and the miles I got back (based on the Business Class upgrade, not the economy underlying ticket) pretty well paid for the number of miles used to upgrade. Madness!

[SLF3]

I guess your saying they can't improve then!

Oh dear.

[Heathrow Harry]

Trouble is and has always been that short-haul is seen within BA as a second rate service - all the money and kudos and the image are based on long-haul and especially Business offerings

Its so much part of their DNA its unchangeable IMHO

They could start by not automatically cancelling short haul flights and keeping long haul flying at LHR when something goes wrong

[ExXB]

I've improved the quality of my short/long haul journeys immensely in the last three or four years. I didn't fly BA once over that period.

Didn't have one involuntary seat assignment change; didn't have one cancellation; vast majority of flights on time (+/- 15 mins); longer delays managed well. Milage credited correctly and quickly; didn't have to deal with their 'executive' club located somewhere in deepest darkest Germany ...

[mixture]

I guess your saying they can't improve then!

Oh dear.

I'm sure they can improve things, there's always scope for improving things in business.

Just come up with a reasonable and realistic list of things that need improving ... ;)

[fa2fi]

To be honest as someone who doesn't fly regularly and who doesn't have FF I will fly BA if they are cheaper than the competition. Now that BA are going 30" with recline I should imagine it is less comfortable than easyJet with no recline particularly the new slimline seats. That coupled with the fact that catering is often a packet of bird seed with no options to purchase anything is pretty poor compared to easy/Norwegian and you have to pay more for a bag with BA means ill only fly them if they're cheaper (and they often are). Up until a few years ago I'd have happily paid £20-£30 more to fly BA. Now it's just not worth it especially when competitors have better allocated seating policies.

Where do they go from here? Well the service has been cut to the bone and is very similar to an LCC. So from a customer perspective I'm not sure. As an airline they can cut their cost base to remain competitive.

[ExXB]

Where do they go from here? Well the service has been cut to the bone and is very similar to an LCC. So from a customer perspective I'm not sure. As an airline they can cut their cost base to remain competitive.

And their customer service was non-existent. Don't know about now, but when I was one of their 'gold' customers, I decided to stop using them because they treated me so poorly. I'm still waiting for resolution of a claim I put in in 2010. The first ignored me, then told me they were too busy to consider my claim, then told me it wasn't their fault, then continued to ignore me. If this is how they treat(ed) gold I pity the poor travellers without status.

[fa2fi]

Yeah their service can be excellent but also extremely poor once onboard. I've flown them Domestic/SH Europe in the lady six months. There's often at least one crew member with very bad attitude, but they're often balanced out by the rest of the crew who are very helpful (going way beyond the call to reunite me with my ipad I left onboard). But then I'd be living in a fantasy world if I believed there weren't a few bad eggs at my airline who spoil it for the rest of the crew and passengers. I've not had a reason for making a complaint with them bud I'd have hoped for better with BA.

[easyflyer83]

Which is partly the problem. Even with increased competition and falling fares/yield people still have the same high expectations of BA. I remember my days in a BA uniform when you really had to strive to meet and exceed expectations. Conversely, at the LCC end we are frequently praised and congratulated on our service..... Even if other areas have failed that day.

At the end of the day it's all about the name at BA. Infrequent fliers who happen to fly BA will be expecting the world but will no doubt be disappointed. It's amazing how many people still believe you will still get a meal on a short haul BA/LH/KL flight.

So yes BA can be cheaper on occasions but the service is not what many expect and there lies the problem.

[PAXboy]

I'd liken this problem, answered so well up by easyflyer83 and mixture, to the one that Marks & Spencer have:

How could M&S clothing shorps improve?

The combination of competition for them from the low cost companies and the Internet - whilst their long term customers feel unhappy with the reduction in service and quality?

The short answer is - they cannot - and nor can BA. They can only make the best of it and keep going as long as possible.

[mixture]

I'd liken this problem to the one that Marks & Spencer have

Indeed. If you look at many lines of business, the incumbent legacy operators struggle to keep up with new entrants (well, at least the new entrants who spot the opportunity and exploit it correctly). Whether its the old chains of booksellers in the hughstreet, the postal service, banks, travel agencies ....

The one exception (if you can call them an exception) are BT, who are surviving reasonably well. But that's only because of their monopolistic position with their fingers in all the pies and the fact they've buttered up the regulator and the politicians. Chances are the average customer if not directly contracted to BT will be using a BT service indirectly though their service provider.

But I digress. Coming back to BA, I don't envy their management's position .... at all.

BA have a vast operation, with a huge number of services provided in-house (extensive maintenance facilities, extensive training facilities etc.). Their overheads and business model (legacy carrier with large number of routes and extensive cargo operation). Large fleet of aircraft. Not to mention their costs for operating LHR T5 !

Its simply not realistically possible for them to cut costs and re-model their business .... the costs alone of implementing all the changes worldwide would drive them to the brink of bankruptcy.

My money would be on us seeing more cross-sell and up-sell. As well as more aggressive pricing and maximising exploitation of technology when dealing with people (i.e. either staff/contractors or passengers/customers) in order to minimise costs there. Industry wise we'll also be seeing more consolidation, just as we have with BA and Iberia, BMI etc.

Remember also that BA already dipped their toe in the loco water with Go in the 90s.... once bitten twice shy as they say ! Even more reason to think BA are not going to be transforming into a lcc any time soon.

[easyflyer83]

No one is suggesting that BA should/will become a LCC. The problem in one way though is I that BA are cherry picking certain LCC attributes and that doesn't always do much for the brand image or perceived brand image.

As for GO.....you can hardly say "once bitten....". In retrospect the GO brand was actually pretty upmarket and is what the easyjet brand has eventually become. The GO operation was fundamentally a great idea before the take over.

[mixture]

BA are cherry picking certain LCC attributes and that doesn't always do much for the brand image or perceived brand image.

And again I say.... what exactly do you expect them to do ?

They want to keep their short haul marketshare. Many of those short haul passengers look at Easyjet and Ryanair pricing and are too dumb to figure out why BA (or A.N. Other incumbent carrier) can't match those prices.

So when faced by a not insignificant number passengers who just look straight at the bottom line price, what exactly are BA to do apart from to find ways to bring the headline price down using the limited number of options available to them ?

You can't call it cherry picking. Its more like trying to maintain brand integrity on one side whilst aggressively competing with the LCCs on the other. BA is not an aggressive brand, as a BA passenger you expect more than you do as an Easyjet or Ryanair passenger where the satisfaction bars are set much lower.

[Heathrow Harry]

One of the reasons people expect better service from BA is that is what they
advertising as their USP

EasyJet & Ryanair don't so you aren't surprised at the lack of service

BA's advertising is almost all based on long haul, exec class travel - the poor punter who turns up for LHR-GLA is in for a horrible shock.................

[SLF3]

BMW don't compete on price. They compete by offering a product that costs a bit more but which people are prepared to pay a premium for which more than covers the incremental cost.

The BA model seems to be to chase people with a lower cost base into the gutter but to charge premium prices.

I would like to be proud of our national flag carrier but I just don't see how this is sustainable. And the point about advertising is correct. The expectation and the reality are a world apart. Even in the long haul cabins.

[ExXB]

One of the reasons people expect better service from BA is that is what they
advertising as their USP

EasyJet & Ryanair don't so you aren't surprised at the lack of service

BA's advertising is almost all based on long haul, exec class travel - the poor punter who turns up for LHR-GLA is in for a horrible shock.................

But many of BA's short-haul customers are connecting to long-haul. If you were flying from the hinterland to Australia, for example, would you go for the 'long-haul' experience of one of the ME airlines on two sectors, or would you fly down to LHR on BA's short-haul to experience their one-stop flight to Sydney.

If BA were smart they would give all of their connecting passengers the short-haul business class regardless if they were travelling business/first on the long-haul. So they have to move the curtain back a dozen or so rows, big deal.

[Heathrow Harry]

"would you go for the 'long-haul' experience of one of the ME airlines on two sectors, or would you fly down to LHR on BA's short-haul to experience their one-stop flight to Sydney."

What is the difference between a one stop flight and a 2 sector flight? they both stop somewhere between Sydney and LHR (they'd better.......)

Admittedly you may not have to change planes but you are often disembarked for refueling & cleaning like it or not

But you inadvertently hit the nail on the head - BA see short haul purely as a feeder service for long haul - and the service suffers accordingly

the LCO's know their business

[Hotel Tango]

I use KLM quite often for long haul. My starting point is DUS which therefore involves a short connecting Fokker FK-70 flight to AMS with KLC. They don't offer a C class as such but pax connecting onto or from C class intercontinental flights are seated in the front of the cabin with the seat next to them guaranteed empty. That's good enough for me for a short connecting flight.

[PAXboy]

SLF3
BMW don't compete on price. They compete by offering a product that costs a bit more but which people are prepared to pay a premium for which more than covers the incremental cost.Y-e-e-s-s but people plan to own their car for several years, perhaps 20. Even a long haul flight is going to top out at some 22 hours of flying time.

But I agree that there is a contrast between the BA advertising - to appeal to old customers to stay - and what happens on short haul.

I have said in the forum before that BA cannot win this 21st century problem. No more than Woolworths could, or Waterstones bookshops or HMV or the thousands of other companies that have gone for a variety of reasons.

To return to the M&S comparison. In their clothing, they have to compete with every high street shop AND the online shops. With the natural falling off as their clientele ages ...?? Whereas, in their food shops, they have but a single competitor -Waitrose. From a commercial point of view, they should be quietly selling off the old biz and concentrating on the new. But the company have repelled all buy-out options and continue to sink money into 'new' ideas for the old biz. Each new CEO says that they can being them back to mainstream. I doubt it. But human nature is to keep old things going.

By contrast, BA have done incredibly well. Although it took them a long time to find a marriage partner (Iberia) they have made a very good shot at the 21st century. I have no idea how long they will last but the longevity of companies and the trajectory of their behaviour is well known and also discussed in here before.

I repeat, I have never worked in the airline biz, nor even held shares in it. Secondly, it gives me no pleasure to predict the end of BA.

[Heathrow Harry]

You are correct - of the major Western Airlines BA have done well - not bankrupt and not much use of taxpayers cash

but you are also correct when you say the basic business model is way out of date and there isn't much they can do about it

[kirungi1]

I repeat, I have never worked in the airline biz, nor even held shares in it. Secondly, it gives me no pleasure to predict the end of BA.

PAXboy; The business is about selling time.

BA is getting there and how is it responding to modern age variables?

Competition, especially low cost, has played a winning game with with labour. Now BA is getting to grips with it's labour contracts and that should be a huge victory. BA has always resisted this but what you resist persists until one finds an alternative. This is how BA is repositioning itself for the 21st Century.

BA is a life time project :D

[Mr Mac]

Paxboy
Interesting discussion with regards to where BA are going and the comparison with M&S - food v clothing etc / Waitrose.

To stick to your M&S / Waitrose analogy I would make the following point. Waitrose are a sub division of John Lewis as you are no doubt aware, and they do sell cloths, and everything else. However the cloths and products they sell do tend to be more high end, and with high end brands, apart from their own label stuff. Waitrose food, to a degree, is also in that same class. M&S are suffering in their clothes line because the UK public, and perhaps the world, prefers to buy a "Brand" name product with all the perceived connotation's this provides. The problem BA have is that the brand has to a degree lost the gloss it once had at that top end of the market, combined with pulling out of some markets altogether. Waitrose also has to look over its shoulder in some areas where they are moving into, as the local competition be it local supermarkets e.g. Booths in the NW, or some very good farmers shops, do give them a run for their money.

For BA it is more difficult, as going down market is not really an option as LCC have got that market taped. Their LH product suffers currently because they have a fleet of quite elderly A/C, and are based in Western Europe - great for the Americas but the world's trade to a degree moved East in the last 30 years, and they are now geographically disadvantaged in that respect. Ask a passenger if they want to go to their local airport wait 2hrs, fly for 1hr, and then wait another 2hrs+ before they leave the UK, when you can be 1/2 way to DXB and change there with perhaps one stop. Depends on individuals but time is either holiday time, or work, either of which for SLF speed is of the essence. (One of the reasons for the growth in the number of supermarkets over the last few years to continue your analogy).
I can in all honesty say I do not know what they can do given these issues, if anything the A/C fleet is the easy bit as that is only money. World trade and its direction is something completely different. Will be interested to see what Mr Walsh does, or how long he stays.

[mixture]

Competition, especially low cost, has played a winning game with with labour.

Labour is only the tip of BA's iceberg kirungi1 ....

As I hinted at in a prior post... underneath that water lies the vast expanses of BA's other overheads that simply don't exist at their newly emerged competitors.

[cockney steve]

Perhaps it is worth looking back at British Railways, into the late 1950's

One could travel on the LCC 3rd class ticket......for a bit more, one could enjoy the journey in 2nd. If one was a person of substance, First class,(the Legacy standard) beckoned......NOW, they all travelled behind the same engine , on the same running gear, on the same rails, platforms and basic infrastructure.
In no way did the third class dilute the superior furnishings and service to first. Maybe BA could look at this model...Maybe, as the cattle were loaded, they should be afforded a glimpse of the fabled BA Legacy service , as advertised and promoted. But, they walk on to the cheap seats they CHOSE to buy. -Again, when you boarded the train, you had to walk enviously past the dearer offerings, if you were travelling 3 rd.

Rising affluence and , I suspect, beaurocracy finally amalgamated 3 rd into 2 nd....Who knows, perhaps the railways could reintroduce 3 rd and open up a whole new market.

ExXBsaid If BA were smart they would give all of their connecting passengers the short-haul business class regardless if they were travelling business/first on the long-haul. So they have to move the curtain back a dozen or so rows, big deal.
But they aren't smart enough to see that! As I said, nothing wrong with offering a cheap basic no-frills service, provided the customer is made aware that better is on offer.

going back to the BMW analogy...how many base models leave the showroom? I'll vouch NONE 'cos the salesman does his job, which is to SELL - desirable but expensive high-cost extras.
I see the BA problem as being partly admin and partly sales- the smartass sales execs paint the dream, the admin are unable to furnish it.....giving a punter the runaround is a sure way to lose their business.
Re- Marks and Sparks...they used to sell only British-made, high quality clothing....unfortunately, they omitted to teach either their shop-floor staff or up-and -coming young customers just why their stuff was of superior manufacture.
Stunned a "sales assistant" who tried to sell me a "very nice " suit for a lady...showed her...skirt not lined, raw seams, neither overlocked nor Pinked.......cheap tat at an inflated price. I explained that, no, I hadn't been in the "rag trade" but my money came through hard work and I was determined to spend it wisely, therefore I researched what I intended to purchase, so I was fore armed......bit like buying a travel ticket, really!

[Omnipresent]

Are things really that bad with BA short-haul?

LCY is arguably a good example of BA being able to see off a competitor when it has the right aircraft and the right cost base to compete.

LGW, after more than ten years of having a question mark hanging over it, is finally expanding in short-haul. The Boeing 737s are being replaced and new longer-range destinations are expected when more Airbus aircraft come online.

As for LHR, it's had plenty of growth in recent years, partly through organic growth and bmi, both in business and seasonal leisure routes.

The Reward Flight Savers are good value Avios redemptions for Executive Club members. As are the last minute weekend/daytrip fares. Executive Club cardholders get a decent package of benefits. Club Europe is probably one of the more accessible short-haul business class packages. I also find the service levels generally very high - certainly much more consistent than on long-haul.

Certainly things could be improved, like clearly marking the overhead bins in Club Europe for business class passengers and replacing the cold meat plate on mid-morning flights and the Afternoon Tea.

The one area BA is going to have to bit the bullet on is catering in EuroTraveller. Either improve it, or introduce buy on board catering.

[easyflyer83]

The BMW analogy isn't particularly appropriate. The fact is that short haul air travel, in most respects, has become a commodity. In the same way as sugar. You may get a glossy repackaged Tesco finest, the home brand or Tesco Value but by and large.....it's the same bloody thing. As a result people aren't willing to pay much extra. The airline industry is becoming that.


Air travel has become the way to a means. We do have to accept that I think.

[kirungi1]

In the same way as sugar. You may get a glossy repackaged Tesco finest, the home brand or Tesco Value but by and large.....it's the same bloody thing. As a result people aren't willing to pay much extra. The airline industry is becoming that.

easyfly83 & Mr Mac

That's a very interesting observation which responds to the question of how much is the optimum in time that it would demand transiting DXB.

If I spend 90 seconds in a Tesco queue at checkouts, satisfaction dents. However, had I spent 60 seconds or less in the same queue I would exit Tesco a satisfied customer. So even if I checked out in 20 seconds my satisfaction wouldn't be any different. That's why I agree with you easyfly83.

What's the average times of connecting from DXB and LHR, Mr Mac? London is a top destination and so it can only be right if BA made the very best use of it.

[SLF3]

Both A BMW 323 and a Ford Focus have four wheels and seats. But they are differentiated.

32" seat spacing in an A320 and 28" seat spacing in a 737 could be differentiated as well.

But all I see is BA going down (reduced seat spacing, cheap seats, chocolate free biscuits) and the likes of Easy coming up (flexible tickets, pre-allocated.

Depressing that no one really sees a future for them. The long haul economy will go to Locos. Premium traffic eastbound has gone already to the likes of SQ, Etihad, Emirates. That just leaves the pond...

[kirungi1]

SLF3

In a Repeat business model, there is little satisfaction born out of seat spacing and BA has researched this fact. Prior to 9/11, American Airlines in an effort to boast it's customer satisfaction did something similar except it was same seat spacing through. It didn't take AA that long to make a U-turn.

Some Low cost models like SouthWest et la have thrived on just a simple basic of the basics principle in the aviation business; delivering the customer with their baggage on time consistently.

BA was the world's premium airline because it consistently did what I've described above. I'm sure it can still deliver on that promise after organising her fleet & labour contracts.

[Mr Mac]

Kirungi 1
Most of my connections through DXB are 2- 2.5hrs depending onward connection, and are usually early morning. By the time you have got into terminal from A/C depending on stand, and into lounge you may have 1 hr to kill. If I have to pick up duty free I can waste some of that time mooching about or work on lap top.

[Ancient Observer]

A fascinating debate about an interesting question.
Like others, I would like to put the question in context. Aviation has, historically, world wide, grown by 6% per annum. It has "shocks" in its market place, as do all big sectors. (Think 9/11).
Boeing predict that it will continue growing at 5% per annum for the foreseeable future. There will be more "shocks".

However, future growth will be far higher in inter-Asia travel, and intra-China travel.

The growth in the recent past which BA have had to "manage" is interesting. The Ezy's and Ryans have not actually crippled BA. They crippled the Charter sector.Anyone remember charter airlines - the ones that used to grab all the growth?

So BA have to manage low/moderate growth, in a climate where consumers look at Price as the first, second and third issues when they book a seat.
All airlines are good at safety, so safety is not a competitive differentiator.
The "Brand" does not deliver its promise, unlike, say, Dulux or Farrow and Bull - so that won't help you.

So what is BA? So what should BA do? And, going back to the question, what should it do about short haul?
(Remember that BA is a very large pension scheme with a small listed Co attached to it. That small listed Co still gives free First Class travel to Directors and many of its staff)

Well I have to say that no organisation is capable of defining a new business strategy that would require another form of organisation to carry it out. If that is true, BA is condemned to a slow painful demise.

As mixture says, BA is a big old bureaucracy. If you were starting a lean, mean, competitive organisation to-day, you would not start with BA. Take a look at their offices and overheads, and compare them with Ezy's.

Walsh won't make the required changes - he's had his time and lost the energy required.

If I were running BA I would allow the old BA to die, and set up in a different Co a completely new Co that the old BA's managers and TUs would not be allowed to influence - nothing. De nada.
Grow that completely new Co entirely independantly from old BA - using facilities far removed from Waterside, and route by route kill off the old business. And the new business should also be promoting Boris Island and lobbying to kill off Thiefrow.

As to the short - haul, let it die except where it makes serious money. Do they need to waste those slots on Prague????

[kirungi1]

Ancient Observer

The growth in the recent past which BA have had to "manage" is interesting. The Ezy's and Ryans have not actually crippled BA. They crippled the Charter sector.Anyone remember charter airlines - the ones that used to grab all the growth?

This is a great observation, as a matter of fact, new customers have preferred aviation than railways et la in the recent past thanks to low cost carriers.

My response to the final third of #33 above. With all your personal power - will, imagination and self awareness - I sowed a good seed in a field but an enermy came and sowed darnel all among the wheat. When the new wheat spouted and ripened the darnel appeared as well, when & how would I have to weed out the darnel?
In your own words, "So what is BA? So what should BA do? And, going back to the question, what should it do about short haul? "

BA has realised how infected the wheat is. Do you risk weeding when the wheat is young - you might uproot the wheat together with the darnel as darnel is false wheat and besides it might affect the roots of the good wheat.
BA has the will and self awareness and look at it's position with the TUs and labour contracts. I have to admit BA did mistakes in the past and will in the future, who doesn't?

So, IMHO time will tell. These variables in aviation are there for all the operators except they knock when you least expect them and it's my firm belief that BA will triumph.

[PAXboy]

An interesting discussion. The various analogies (including my own of M&S) all fall somewhat short because BA is in a very particular 'corner'.

One other factor we have not yet mentioned is the regulatory hand that can ease forward or hold back. But, that is all part of the difference that flying is your life in their metal. The BMW is being owned and driven by you. If something goes wrong with your M&S suit, you are already on the ground. YET people still want to pay less and less and expect more. That is human nature and is unmovable.

The combination of factors stacking against ALL the European legacy carriers are going to claim more victims than they already have. To recap briefly:


Money. Not just the LCCs but in everything we purchase.
Movement of commercial weight from USA to Middle and Far East.
Regulation: Removal of privileged pricing and barriers to new entrants.
Internet: information and range of choice never imagined.
Historic contracts for labour, premises and access to runways that are also being affected by the above points.

[mixture]

we have not yet mentioned is the regulatory hand

I was going to, but I thought in the grand scheme of things, BA has many other worries to deal with.

[Ancient Observer]

"So, IMHO time will tell"


If they leave it to either "time" or their existing Board and management, they will just die a slow death, as will all the other European legacy airlines.
BA's case is marginally worse than other Europeans due to the Pension fund.

As I said, it is a very large pension fund with a small listed Co to fund it.

Short haul should be divested pdq, but not by or to the current management team.

[dazdaz1]

I have flown from Malaga to Gatwick with BA on a number of times. Mostly the evening flights back to LGW. On most occasions the departure has been between 1-2 hours late.

Recently, the BBC (red button now defunct) one could access flight arrivals to most UK airports. BA arrival times to LGW from Malaga were appalling. Compared to the Orange one. It's a 50/50 situation, sitting like a sardine in a can or more leg room (319)

[Omnipresent]

BA will not, and should not, dispose of short-haul. The old BOAC model has been looked at before and short-haul is vital for feeding long-haul and BA claims there is an optimum balance of about 1/3rd long-haul and 2/3rd short-haul at LHR.

When BA was really going through the wringer a few years ago, I'd actually credit management with not going for drastic/panic measures like divesting parts of the airline.

And don't forget, IAG has the LCC market already covered through its subsidiary Vueling.

Personally, I'm cautiously optimistic about BA's future. Its prospects are certainly greater than the other European legacy carriers, not least because its O&D market in London is so big.

Lufthansa's track record is very patchy (see the disaster with bmi and failed ventures like LH Italia) and AF-KLM seems culturally incapable of getting to grips with major structural problems.

And arguably, the real story in UK aviation is the wildly divergent financial performance of BA and Virgin Atlantic. BA is forecast to make an operating profit of over £1bn this year whereas Virgin expects to be at about break even.

Finally, the "pension fund with wings" moniker was true about five years ago but there's been a lot of progress in bringing the deficit down.

[ExXB]

Connecting passengers are vital to BA's long-haul success. If they abandoned short-haul they would lose at least 28 million passengers connecting to their long-haul services. They couldn't have to lose a large number of flights and destinations.

Some interesting 2008 data from the CAA on connecting passengers, is available here: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/5/Connecting_Passengers_at_UK_Airports.pdf

Nothing more recent appears to be available there, but their search engine is a joke. Searching for the exact title failed to turn up the document! (or at least not on the first 10 pages)

[mixture]

Connecting passengers are vital to BA's long-haul success. If they abandoned short-haul they would lose at least 28 million passengers connecting to their long-haul services.

Well yes, except if a 2013 Easyjet document is to be believed, "long-haul feeder" routes only account for around 5% of the EU short-haul market, and that only 15% of that 5% is Business class capacity..... so we're basically talking about 0.75% of the EU-short haul market being "long-haul feeder" capacity (2011 figures).... i.e. 4.5 million seats out of the 600 million.

Given there are roughly 42 "main" airlines operating long haul routes (sum of OneWorld plus StarAlliance members)... BA will probably loose some of those 4.5 million to their competitors ...

And that's before we start writing off people who're only flying premium because they're using Avios or they're on a corporate deal.

Of course BA want all the passengers they can get ... BA only publicly publish (as far as I can tell) overall pax figures... which was roughly 32 million in 2010.... so if we generously assume premium cabin space is on average 40%, that's 13 million premium passengers.... which means BA probably only get about 10-20% of their premium passengers off the feeder routes.

Of course I've only focused on premium passengers above, because as we all know, that's where the money is made to pay for the cattle in the back ... ;)

(The aforementioned Easyjet document is here (http://corporate.easyjet.com/~/media/Files/E/Easyjet-Plc-V2/pdf/investors/results-centre/2013/2013-q1-roadshow-presentation.pdf) ... the figures I refer to in paragraph one are on page 20)

[ExXB]

From the CAA report linked above:

3.3 Much of the growth in connecting traffic can be attributed to the rising number of international - international passengers which has quadrupled from 4.4 million in 1987 to 17.9 million in 2007, whereas total passengers at Heathrow have only doubled over this period. The increase in long haul services at the airport has given rise to greater numbers of domestic - long haul connectors (1.5 million in 1987 to 4.0 million in 2007), short haul - long haul connectors (3.1 million to 13.1 million) and long haul - long haul connectors (0.7 million to 4.2 million).

I'd trust the CAA data, although somewhat dated, over an airline that doesn't fly to Heathrow.

[Ancient Observer]

I would take the CAA stuff with a very, very large pinch of salt. The CAA has no independant way of establishing this data. It is entirely dependant on vested interests when it assembles the data. It has no means of even auditing the data!!!

For instance, when Thiefrow was reporting 30 mins queues for Security, and we were all experiencing 90-120 minutes or longer queues, it came in to the public domain that the CAA allowed Thiefrow to "average out" the queues over the full 24 hours. Er, from about 10.00 to 0500 the queues are Zero.

[ExXB]

Did you read the report? It does explain how they got the data.

[Ancient Observer]

Yup. Read it.

It claims to draw its data from the "CAA" pax survey. No data is provided about who carries this out, and how.

In all my years of flying, I have only ever seen one pax survey person from CAA.
In 3 years of "connecting" (long haul back to Bru) I never saw a survey person.

If there is a place where they describe the "n" covered by the survey, I missed it. They then extrapolate from their n to the millions. I am extremely suspicious.

Again - go back to my earlier comments - Thiefrow queuing.

[Heathrow Harry]

AO - you need to do a basic stats course -

People are pretty good at predicting UK election results by interviewing 1500 people - if they interview 3000 the margin of error is <1%

No reason why it should be any different with airlines

[Ancient Observer]

Mr Heathrow.
Yup.
Done that. (Twice). I can b.s. my way on stats. So can Thiefrow's owners.

The CAA interviewers, (if they have any now - I think it is subcontracted out) do not interview 1500 people, so cannot be used to cover the many millions that the report is s'posed to cover.

And, er, how many of the connections are in the early hours as the planes come in from Asia and Americas? How many interviewers around then?

Plus, the Interview intentions questions used for Elections are much less complex than the data required for that report.

But you haven't paid for the 10 minute argument.......

[ExXB]

Here you go, CAA's methodology. Methodology | Data, Analysis and Statistics | About the CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1279&pagetype=90&pageid=7629)

Not to be confused with 'wishful thinking' analysis

[mixture]

People are pretty good at predicting UK election results by interviewing 1500 people - if they interview 3000 the margin of error is <1%

Really ?

How many predicted the ConDem coalition then ? :cool:

[ExXB]

Realistically, fewer than those that forecast a minority government. But voter opinions were irrelevant in the forming of the coalition.

Now, can we get back to the topic?

[Ancient Observer]

Long term improvement plan for BA short haul.

1. Back, and build, Boris Island.
2. Move BA to Boris Island first. (But look how they are opening T2. Do not do a T5 again, please)
3. Run as many flights as you like in the first few years as the Omani/Saudi owners of Boris Island will give you cheap slots for the first few year.
Get Boris to ban Unite and Balpa from Boris Island. Make it a "Right to Work" Island
5. Flog off Thiefrow to HKG based developers who will pay more for it than it is worth as an airport. HKG developers know how to make money from property.
6. Do a deal with EZY to own, manage and run your short haul connectors to your long haul. Do not let BA management manage it.

[SLF3]

Open a fast rail link as an extension to cross rail at the same time as the new airport, make it Zone 7 and charge a reasonable ticket price.

Can't imagine it happening!

[ExXB]

Ground Transport in London from Heathrow isn't bad, if you can afford the prices. But to the west, north and south they are crap.

[Phileas Fogg]

Ground Transport in London from Heathrow isn't bad, if you can afford the prices. But to the west, north and south they are crap.

That's why National Express do so well.

When I lived in Northamptonshire, in an area not served by National Express, to get to/from LHR was a public transport nightmare, it would have meant a 1 hour bus through the country lanes and then a walk to the train station, then a train in to one London terminus ... and you know the rest.

That's when I started utilising one-way hire cars, cheaper and more convenient than public transport and cheaper on car parking (i.e. no car parking) than using one's own car.

[ExXB]

That's why National Express do so well.

I've stood on the edge of large car parking lots a few times. Once it didn't show up at all (despite buying a ticket in advance from there) and the other times it was at least 20 minutes late. If you choose this option add at least a half-hour for contingencies.

Oh, and National Express apologised for the no-show, but that is all they did. A unforeseen technical problem, not our fault ...

[Skipness One Echo]

1. Back, and build, Boris Island.
2. Move BA to Boris Island first. (But look how they are opening T2. Do not do a T5 again, please)
3. Run as many flights as you like in the first few years as the Omani/Saudi owners of Boris Island will give you cheap slots for the first few year.
Get Boris to ban Unite and Balpa from Boris Island. Make it a "Right to Work" Island
5. Flog off Thiefrow to HKG based developers who will pay more for it than it is worth as an airport. HKG developers know how to make money from property.
6. Do a deal with EZY to own, manage and run your short haul connectors to your long haul. Do not let BA management manage it.
How much is this really going to cost?

1) Build new airport in the sea. Easy peasy. Yes folks, under the approach to Schiphol. In the sea......
2) Close LHR airport.
3) Deal with the 000s of newly unemployed blue collar people that are not able to commute to another county. Hotels, B&Bs, taxi drivers, retaurants, you know, the "little people" who lack that Oxbridge classics degree who see the obvious we all miss.
4) Pay off HAL, Several £££££££££££££££££££s.
5) Compensate BA for their maintenance base. The one they'll have to replicate all over again. In the sea. Several more of your ££££££££££££££££££s.
6) Likewise VS.
7) Build a new city that no one living nearby can live in as daddy lost his job when Boris closed the *biggest employer in the area*.
8) Sell off the new LHR houses to people with better incomes so they can accumulate wealth off the back of a property bubble.
etc

Consider how the radius of LHR's catchment area runs all the way to Bristol whereas 50% of Fantasy Island is er....well populated by fish. On the wrong side of London, but fish makes the point better. Far from all those pesky businesses and the wealth creators of the M4 corridor.

No serious non partisan study is supporting this deluded folly. Unless we've discovered some gold to pay for it all? Have we discovered gold?

** In other news, the (quite enormous) budget deficit went up, yes got bigger, as in not smaller last month..... Right.....

btw the idea of an old Etonian elitist ,the "born to the purple" brigade arbitrarilly banning union membership speaks volumes about you as a person and how you see people less fortunate. I won't begrudge the daylight robbery of TFL drivers being overpaid when I see just how grossly overpaid many of the people on those trains are. #b(w)ankers MPs etc etc.

[S.o.S.]

Shall we keep to the topic: "How could BA short haul improve?"


There are several threads for the LHR/LGW/Boris argument.

[fa2fi]

I think the last thing the South East is more foreigners buying/building properties, fuelling a bubble and pricing locals out of the housing market and dooming them to be renters forever.

[Phileas Fogg]

My next to last experience with BA short haul was when they lied to me cancelling my LUX/LGW flight supposedly due maintenance when in fact it was due to very few pax booked.

My last experience with BA short haul was AMS/LGW when they allocated me to a broken seat that the cabin crew hadn't even been aware of and then flew the (bumpy) sector with the gear down to get down to MLW because some muppet had overfuelled the aircraft.

To name but a few I've flown with Laker, Brymon, Air UK, Inter European, Monarch, Air 2000, Air Kilroe, Business Air, KLM, Luxair, Lufthansa, Swiss, SAS, Air Baltic, Ryanair, BMI Baby, Alitalia, Air France, City Jet, Carpatair, MALEV Hungarian, Ukraine International, Austrian Airlines, Motor Sich, South Airlines, AeroSvit, Cyprus Airways, Turkish Airlines, Dniproavia, Corendon, Cathay Pacific, Cebu Air, Philippines Airlines, Air Philippines, Zest Air ... and no doubt others that I can't recall.

NEVER have I experienced two such back to back problems as I experienced with BA short haul ... How might BA short haul improve things? ... Shut the operation down!

[ExXB]

when in fact it was due to very few pax booked

Sigh,

The European Parliament, and the Commission, were absolutely convinced that this was regular practice by airlines. That is one reason why the penalties in the regulation text were much higher for cancellations than for delays. There was no compensation for delays, only for cancellations. ((For the minute let's ignore the fact that the ECJ has made the penalties for delays the same as cancellations.))

The Parliament, and the Commission wanted to punish the airlines for their nefarious practices and fully expected to see a significant reduction in flight cancellations at European airports with the implementation of 261. Thinking that after paying out wads of cash the airlines would stop being nefarious and fewer cancellations would happen.

Funny thing was that there was no significant change before/after the Regulation. In a study done by outside consultants done 5 years after the implementation they found the the regulation had no effect on the rate or frequency of cancellations. I've tried to find the study online but it isn't on the Commissions web-site.

I have no doubt that your cancellation occurred, and I'm not surprised that the flight that was cancelled was one with few passengers on it. No doubt one of their aeroplanes went technical and they decided to cancel the flight which would have the least financial impact on them. It also meant they were cancelling the flight that would have the least number of passengers impacted - and that would be a very good thing, at least for those that did travel on the night.

I'm not a fan of BA or the awful airports they base their aircraft at. I avoid them both because, when things go pear shaped they will screw the short-haul passengers first. They need to have a real hard think about other schemes that can be put in place, or find ways of proactively cancelling much further in advance. Almost everyone I know has had BA leave them queuing at the airport after learning only there that their flights had been affected by something happening at Heathrow.

[Phileas Fogg]

ExXB,

Yes, but when they telephoned me the day before that it was cancelled due technical I questioned "So there's not a spare aeroplane to the entire BA fleet to operate this service?" ... The BA liar on the other end of the phone replied "no".

I then asked if they had tried sub-chartering an aircraft in to operate the service, the BA liar replied to the effect that they had, I told him to give me an hour or so and I'd source them an aircraft to operate the service ... It was as clear as day that BA were lying and invol rerouted on a Luxair B737 to LHR with just a handful of pax on it provided the evidence.

So, yes, BA might have had a technical ATR in their fleet but my flight became cancelled for commercial reasons.

[crewmeal]

So in other words to answer the question posed 'How can BA short haul improve?' Answer - tell the truth to the passengers when things go wrong.

[Phileas Fogg]

Crewmeal,

But to add insult to injury, whilst travelling on a BA ticket, Luxair trashed my suitcase so much that it arrived on the LHR carousel so heavily taped that I barely recognised it.

Now take a wild guess how many BA staff were in attendance to meet and greet their passengers, their customers, off the Luxair flight?

Luxair, as an airline, had no representation in UK, I was a BA passenger so having completed a PIR with whoever the handling agent had been I addressed my claim to BA, time after time BA flatly refused to accept my claim for a new suitcase telling me to address it to Luxair who were non existent in UK!

"How can BA short haul improve?" Answer - Provide some sort of customer service that the customers may just find acceptable!