No Waddington show - what happens now?

[WH904]

Like everyone, I was disappointed to learn that there will be no show at Waddington next year. It seemed inevitable given the plans for the station's runway. What did disturb me was the tone of comments made by organisers, which suggested that the show might not return at all. I couldn't help feeling that this was inevitable too. A year's lapse is a good way to proverbially drop the ball and abandon the show business completely.

If the rumours that the Station Commander doesn't want a show are true, then maybe we should be asking the RAF what they think about this? Okay, if he doesn't understand the value of displaying taxpayer's assets to the taxpayers, he's clearly a fool, but there's no point expecting a "no show" man to put his support behind a show. Surely, we should be asking why the RAF cannot stage a show elsewhere?

Scampton's a wreck, Coningsby is busy and too far from the major road networks. Cottesmore is closed but potentially suitable. So is Wittering. Then there's Finningley - under civilian control but pretty-much dormant. One would think that some sort of arrangement could be made to take the show back to Finningley, and allow the civilian operations to continue during the event - it's not like this hasn't been done elsewhere.

Fundamentally, it depends whether the RAF still wants to have an annual showcase. Maybe they are going to claim that their efforts are now directed towards RIAT Fairford? If so, it's a pretty shabby business for the millions who live to the north. Likewise, RIAT isn't about the RAF at all (and it is arguably an over-priced show that is way past its sell-by date).

So what happens now? Will all the disappointed enthusiasts continue to moan until they realise that the Waddington show isn't coming back? Or should they direct their frustration to the corridors of Whitehall, and ask the RAF what's going on here?

[Mike51]

A statement was released a day or two back saying that, with the loss of Leuchars too, the RAF were undertaking a review of their entire airshow participation.

"The RAF Waddington International Air Show is a unique opportunity for the Station to engage with our visitors to showcase the work, people and capability of the RAF and its partner organisations. I am immensely proud of the effort Station personnel have contribute to this year’s Air Show both in the months leading up to the event and on the day. It is very much regretted that due to essential work due to be undertaken to refurbish the runway at RAF Waddington, the Station will be unable to put on an Air Show next year (2015). Due to this work and the movement of the RAF from our other air show location (RAF Leuchars in Scotland), the RAF has decided to complete a full review of its air show commitments; the results of the review will be announced in due course."

http://www.waddingtonairshow.co.uk/news/

[Tashengurt]

It hardly seems worth the effort for Tonka, a Tiffie and any trsnsport type that can be spared. Fact is that while many of us remember with fondness the packed pans of the '70s and '80s those days are gone.


Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

[WH904]

Cranwell is probably unsuitable. The runway is fairly modest, parking space is modest too, but it's also a fairly long way from the A1. The only realistic site is probably Cottesmore. Leeming would probably work but it's probably too far north, unless one takes the view that it "balances" the loss of the Leuchars show.

I guess the planned review will tell us where we stand. I think we can all predict what the outcome of the review will be. Doubtless they will claim that RAF participation should be confined to appearances at other shows not staged by the RAF. This is no great loss in itself because the RAF already provides so little direct participation in its own show. It makes no difference if the same level of participation is simply exported to another show that isn't organised by the RAF.

The worry is whether there IS any other event that the RAF could participate in. As it is, it looks as if there's only RIAT - a hideously expensive event that is way too south of a central location, and notoriously difficult to get in and out of. Let's hope we do not get into a situation where the RAF's only "event" is some sort of part in the increasingly questionable RIAT event.

[Red Line Entry]

Fundamentally, it depends whether the RAF still wants to have an annual showcase.

The RAF does have a site for the 2015 showcase - Cosford.

[Sandy Parts]

Mods - could this be merged with the other Wado airshow thread? (mainly 'cause I like the pictures and captions on the other one, - would be a shame to lose them!):)

[jayc530]

Cottesmore is now an army unit, Finningley is a civilian airport, not an RAF unit and Cranwell simply doesn't have the manpower to support an airshow... unless you use personnel from other nearby units.

The air force simply doesn't have the time, money, manpower or assets to support airshows. Sadly, times have changed.

[Al R]

WH904

The only realistic site is probably Cottesmore.

Agreed, and just who was that noisy hooligan above her 10 minutes ago?!

I shall sell debentures for Chez Al where you can watch in comfort. Pitches for your tents, roll up roll up - buy 'em here.

[Pittsextra]

The dates need looking at too, after all this year has Waddo, RIAT and Farnborough on consecutive weeks that is hardly the smartest organisation.


"Likewise, RIAT isn't about the RAF at all (and it is arguably an over-priced show that is way past its sell-by date). "


Price maybe but the content of the 2014 show is way richer than Waddo.

[WH904]

Content way richer? An F-35 and a Su-22? Hardly a match for a Vulcan, Canberra, three Hunters, three Gnats, a Viggen and a Draken (and all flying, not just sat in a car park)! People who live fairly near to Fairford still think its great but these days its a pale imitation of the days of Greenham Common, etc. I don't know anyone in my profession who even bothers going to the show any more, which says a lot. But it is what it is and its a popular event.

But Fairford is hideously expensive and it's at a venue that most people (apart from the organisers) hate. It's way too far for anyone beyond the midlands and it's a nightmare to get in and out of. It would be pretty disturbing if the RAF threw all its support to a show at Fairford. Once again, it would be encouraging the notion that Britain ends just north of Watford.

Waddington was (is) in a central location, not too far from good road connections, and blessed with plenty of space. Not many other places that tick all the boxes. Cosford's hardly an "RAF showcase" - they haven't got an adequate runway and no parking space.

Cottesmore is easily the most suitable show venue. Okay, it's under Army control but so what? One would hope that we're beyond the days of inter-service rivalry, so one MoD establishment is just as valid as any other.

But one suspects that all of this matters not one jot if the RAF are preparing us to stage a neat abandonment of all shows - which is what I expect. It's a very sad business if we've reached a stage where the RAF can't even manage to stage one decent public event. The folks at Yeovilton and Culdrose must be chuckling :)

[Pittsextra]

WH In no way do I want to talk down one verse the other but if you look at the aircraft at RIAT 2014 its stacked including a lot of national display teams - its a bit more than just an F35 and Su-22.

[WH904]

It's the age-old question of what one wants from a show. The general public seem to love RIAT - presumably because there are lots of aerobatic teams. Some enthusiasts like it too, but there's a huge (and I do mean huge) group of people who no longer have any interest in the show. It's no loss to RIAT of course but for an awful lot of people there's no comparison between Waddington's line-up this year (which is admittedly pretty poor compared to the "good old days") and the RIAT show. Like a lot of people, I couldn't care less about an F-35, so the only aircraft worth a look would be the Su-22, therefore it's a no brainer.

Naturally it's a case of each to his own, but I'm trying to explain why the loss of Waddington's show is such a sad move for a lot of people. I think there might be a temptation to think that by putting their support behind RIAT, the RAF might imagine nobody would be too saddened by the loss of Waddington's show. My point is that this wouldn't be the case - there are thousands of people who haven't got the slightest interest in going to Fairford.

[814man]

So the public still want to see the military hardware their taxes pay for, have a good day out, be inspired to want to join up, etc, but the RAF struggle to find bases to host airshows, hard pressed servicemen to work them, and the whole infrastructure needed to run them.
Surely one of the answers must be to look at the popularity of the shows held at coastal towns such as Scarborough, Cleethorpes and many others. Here the public get to see an airshow but without all the problems of hosting an event like the show at Waddington has become. The towns can have the fun fairs and the whole host of stalls selling stuff, you could even add in the military ground displays to some extent, but this would be achieved without the burden on the individual station resources. Of course the airshow itself is reduced in size and complexity by a number of factors, and would be unlikely to attract the 70,000 plus that flock to Waddo each day, but potentially more of them could actually reach a wider audience.
Main thing missing I can see would be the experience of getting close up to the hardware itself, and for those of you who like me have spent many years working in and around them don’t forget the impact of your first experience of getting up close to real aircraft you have only ever seen flying in the distance. We took a couple of my sons mates with him to Waddo this year and their comments as we arrived and walked through the static on Alpha Dispersal made it all worthwhile.

[newt]

Eastbourne has a great show every August. Take a picnic and sit on the downs. Great view and usually good weather. Oh and it's free!:ok:

[NutLoose]

Surely one of the answers must be to look at the popularity of the shows held at coastal towns such as Scarborough, Cleethorpes and many others. Here the public get to see an airshow but without all the problems of hosting an event like the show at Waddington has become

The problem with that as you mentioned is no static..... the other one, you would still require an Airfield somewhere with secure parking for the participents both from the UK and abroad..... so you might as well hold it at the said Airfield..

As for Cosford, went a couple of years back and to be honest it wasn't worth the fuel getting there, the display was nothing to write home about, in fact it was poor, in its defence it did rain, the advantage is you have access to the museum when wet, but having been round it a couple of times that wasn't an advantage to me...

The fact Waddington Sold out tells you the Public wants to see the show continue, and let's not forget.

Any surplus funds generated are donated to the RAF Benevolent Fund, the RAF Association and to local charities and worthy causes. To date, over £2,800,000 has been raised for these worthy causes

Sponsors - Waddington International Airshow 2013 (http://www.waddingtonairshow.co.uk/sponsors)


http://www.waddingtonairshow.co.uk/uploads/images/news/resized/c05ae4ecf6a1890502ed0b10c8dd2ba25c21d343.jpg

Now you chaps are aware we have several burger stalls located around the site..


Note how the crease in his jacket makes it read as fall ons. how apt.

[XR219]

The air force simply doesn't have the time, money, manpower or assets to support airshows. Sadly, times have changed.
And to think, back in the 50s, no fewer than 70-odd RAF stations held Battle of Britain At Home Days...

BATTLE of BRITAIN WEEK — ends with R.A.F. At Home Day and the Abbey Thanksgiving Service (FLIGHT, 26 September 1952) (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1952/1952%20-%202861.html)

[WH904]

The seaside shows do seem to be the way forward, even if they're pretty disappointing in terms of getting up close to aircraft. If the CAA pushes the absurd safety issues any further it'll probably be better to watch these shows from France.

I've moaned about this saga before, but I still think the way forward would be to make one show much more about seeing the RAF (and Nato) in action. Not aerobatic performances (leave those to the Reds). There's a lot that could be done if the RAF had the will. I don't accept that it's all about costs and logistics - how come Culdrose and Yeovilton don't seem to have any problems?

I can't help thinking that the whole saga is simply a symptom of the way the RAF is these days. The "chiefs" down in Whitehall just don't seem to be the same people who were there many years ago. They don't have the same imagination, will, interest, call it what you will. Public Relations is now simply something that they want to outsource as a means of making money. I don't think they have any real interest in the issue any more - and Waddington is probably just the latest victim.

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Boscombe Down has previously provided airshow facilities... which were very good. A long runway, static display on the N/S runway; all one needs to do is import more personnel to stage the event.

[Meldrew]

There used to be great displays almost annually at North Weald back in the fifties and sixties. No longer RAF obviously, but a great venue from the historical angle. Plenty of parking available on market days, so no probs for an air show I would imagine. Good access from the M11 and M25 ( when running!) A great airfield with a long runway and a great resident organisation called "The Squadron" the place gets my vote.

[Willard Whyte]

The buggers might of cancelled it before I left.

[jayc530]

'Cottesmore is easily the most suitable show venue. Okay, it's under Army control but so what?'

It's not an RAF station and it doesn't have an active runway.

[chanter]

We'll this chap isn't happy about the cancellation!!

Hilter learns RAF Waddington Airshow 2015 cancelled - YouTube (http://youtu.be/auZ62rS2eyQ)

[Four Types]

You may find find this amusing...

Hilter learns RAF Waddington Airshow 2015 cancelled - YouTube (http://youtu.be/auZ62rS2eyQ)

[WH904]

It's not an RAF station and it doesn't have an active runway.
Er, yes, I already said that and no the runway isn't active... until it's active:p

[jayc530]

WH904, have you thought about Catterick?

[rolandpull]

Wittering, the RAF's newest super base?

[jayc530]

It's an RAF station and has an active runway.

[airpolice]

NutLoose wrote:

Any surplus funds generated are donated to the RAF Benevolent Fund, the RAF Association and to local charities and worthy causes. To date, over £2,800,000 has been raised for these worthy causes

I'd be interested to see data on the FROM Date for that amount of money.

This is from a few years ago, but is based on the only figures that I have available just now.

RIAT 2009 figures They got over 8 Million pounds in and disbursed £196,997 to Charitable causes.

RIAT certainly makes money for some people.

Less than 20 pence out of every 8 quid was distributed to service charities.


Facts and figures about RIAT.

Royal Air Force Charitable Trust Enterprises
Accounts for 2008-2009

From an income of over 8 Million pounds, the charity got 300 thousand.

Of which, less than 200 thousand pounds was given to the people we all expect to be getting the money. Still, the expenses were right up there in the good figures, so nobody missed out.








2011- 2012
RIAT £6,152,663
Other Income £1,186,089
Total Incoming Resources £7,338,752

Grants to charity £136,921


2012-2013
RIAT £5,982,202
Other Income £640,519
Total Incoming Resources £6,622,721

Grants to charity £113,665

[Red Line Entry]

From the Waddington Air Show website:

Over the past eighteen years, the annual air show has raised £2.82 million for charity. - See more at: press release - Waddington International Airshow 2013 (http://www.waddingtonairshow.co.uk/press-release#sthash.L0bUAdwL.dpuf)

[OafOrfUxAche]

An F-35 and a Su-22?


AL1 no F-35 BBC News - F-35 combat jet's UK debut at Fairford Air Tattoo cancelled (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28257349)

[diginagain]

Looks like an opportunity for a re-run of 'RAF Spirit of Adventure'.

[Dysonsphere]

I seem to recall was one of problems was the change to controlled airspace above North Weald to suit the rearrange of Luton Routings.

[NutLoose]

Air police, those figures are for RIAT which is Fairford not Waddo :O


Royal Air Force Waddington International Air Show supported charities
Proceeds from the Royal Air Force Waddington International Air Show are distributed to the Royal Air Force Benevolent Fund, the Royal Air Forces Association and to local charities supported by Royal Air Force Waddington. Over the past eighteen years, the annual air show has raised £2.82 million for charity. Both charities provide financial, practical and emotional support to all members of the RAF both past and present.

- See more at: http://www.waddingtonairshow.co.uk/charities#sthash.A3SOErSC.dpuf

For more details on how Air Show proceeds are distributed please write to SO2 Charities, RAF Waddington, Lincoln LN5 9NB. - See more at: http://www.waddingtonairshow.co.uk/charities#sthash.A3SOErSC.eulvDR6V.dpuf

From

http://www.waddingtonairshow.co.uk/charities

[WH904]

I think it fair to say that the F-35 was the "star item" for RIAT, at least judging by all the excitement being expressed by youngsters in particular (presumably because the poor souls have never seen any "real" aeroplanes). Without that, then there's only the Su-22... all very nice but hardly worth the admission fee when there is so little else. It makes Waddington's show look all the more impressive.

One has to wonder whether RIAT's allegedly snotty attitude towards XH558 has rather backfired on them this time? It would seem that they thought they could afford to dismiss XH558 as less important because they had a shiny new toy to show off. Now that's gone, they're left with very little.

I guess we're heading for some interesting times. If the RAF is making noises that sound suspiciously like abandonment of all shows, and RIAT manages to pull-off its dullest show so far, it will be interesting to see what happens. Let's hope the outcome isn't too horrible.

[Out Of Trim]

Hmm, RIAT has not been worth going to for last 5 years at least! Havn't been to Waddiington since 1979. Too far away!

Only decentish Airshow I regularly attend is Shoreham these days. Eastbourne is OKish; but display Line a little too far from the coast, so could be better.:(

[Phoney Tony]

Waddo became a funfair with a tacky market place many years ago.

[airpolice]

Nutloose, I know that, I was trying to highlight the difference in revenue to charity donations.

Waddington don't publish costs, the way that RIAT do.

I doubt that Waddington actually spend the same, even if you take a percentage for the military people pressed into action instead of paying for staff.

However the annual contribution to charities from Waddington Airshow looks like it might exceed the contribution from RIAT, with an average of over £155,000 a year.

I think that more people need some more clarity with how much, or how little, money from their ticket actually ends up with the charities.

They can dress it up all they like by saying the proceeds go to charity, but there are lots of expenses to be repaid before they count up any proceeds.

The Airshow Business is much more of a Business than a chance to show off Airpower or a Charity gig.

[exmanman]

Hilter learns RAF Waddington Airshow 2015 cancelled - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auZ62rS2eyQ&feature=youtu.be)

Thank you, still drying my eyes as I type :ok:

[MAINJAFAD]

Cottesmore is easily the most suitable show venue. Okay, it's under Army control but so what?

No active runway and No ATC facilities (the Tower and the Comms / Navaids) have all been ripped out.

[WH904]

When you say "ripped out" I assume you mean "removed" in which case the necessary equipment can be put back easily. It's not as if dormant airfields haven't been re-opened for air shows before. There's absolutely no reason why Cottesmore couldn't be used - it's just a question of will. Obviously, it isn't going to happen as nobody from the RAF is going to propose that the Army should even be approached. Doesn't mean to say that it wouldn't be the best thing to do though :)

If we're talking about reality, I guess we will simply be kept in the dark and eventually the RAF will announce that they are no longer proposing to stage shows of any sort but that they will participate in other events (insert suitable cliches and platitudes at this point etc.). But the outcome will probably be that the Waddington show is abandoned. Hopefully that won't happen but I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine that it will.

[Valiantone]

I wonder if the Royal Navy bin both the Airshows they do next year and after?

Roughly translated if they can manage it whats stopping the RAF.

V1

[Tiger_mate]

The RAF are stopping the RAF.

Somebody in the corridors of power is convinced that operational overstretch and support of public events are the nemesis of one another, and that actually promoting such an event sends the wrong message to Govt. I understand the theory, but disagree that it is an accurate or even appropriate reflection of the state of the RAF these days. For sure once air shows / open days are gone, you will never get them back.

Its all very well putting all the RAF eggs into the RIAT basket, but I do wonder if that is the best way to put the RAF on the map due to the RAF being lost in a sea of competition. A modest input from NATO and the US in both air and static displays and the RAF may as well not be there at all. The RAF village concept (keeping all associated stands together) has its merits, but the flip side is that it is also very easy to completely miss the whole lot, as happened to many at Earls Court last year.

[WH904]

Think it's fair to say that the RAF has always lagged way behind the Royal Navy when it comes to promotion and public relations. Clearly, there's no reason why an awful lot cannot be done if the will is there. It's just that the will isn't there. It's far too easy to proverbially throw one's hands in the air and claim that rules and regulations, operational commitments, costs, etc., all conspire to make shows impossible. It's nonsense. Nothing is impossible.

[rolandpull]

It is a shame that for at least one weekend a year, every flying squadron can not present an aircraft to the public at a collective display. If the British public doesn't understand airpower, perhaps a PR 'show of force' might help in the matter?

We used to put on some really good fire power demo's not too many years ago, in the days when we had F3's, and GR4's that were allowed to fly at weekends. AT and SH played too!

[1.3VStall]

I understand that the "pongo" in charge at Cottesmore was approached by the RAF to see if he minded having the Four Counties Gliding Club on his patch as the club is being ousted from Wittering by the expansion there.

The reaction was a firm negative as flying activities would affect dog walking in the airfield!

So not much chance of a big RAF airshow then.

[Arclite01]

Poor old 4 Counties......homeless again.

Move them to Wyton ??

Why not have the airshow at Wyton ??

Arc

[Martin the Martian]

I can see that the RAF will throw their lot in with RIAT, though if they do one hopes that there will be a few more airframes to see than there was at the weekend.

It seems a bit paradoxical, as the RAF have supported shows and displays all through the last few years when there has been heavy deployment overseas, and now that these assorted operations are finally winding down, they say they can't support them as they did.

[WH904]

If that's what really happened at Cottesmore, then it just illustrates that inter-service childishness still persists. If so, then I agree it's another reason why a show is never going to happen at Cottesmore. One would have thought that by now the armed forces could operate together and stop acting like school kids.

I agree it would be a sad move if the RAF simply threw its weight (such as it is) behind RIAT. That show is already far from popular with a lot of aviation enthusiasts, plus it's in a lousy location unless one happens to live in the region. Having said that, I would think it's the most likely outcome, sadly.

[NutLoose]

The reaction was a firm negative as flying activities would affect dog walking in the airfield!


That's a bit harsh, even for Army Wives and WRAC's :p


preparing for incoming......

[Wander00]

A sea of black Labradors!

[Tiger_mate]

I agree it would be a sad move if the RAF simply threw its weight (such as it is) behind RIAT. That show is already far from popular with a lot of aviation enthusiasts, plus it's in a lousy location unless one happens to live in the region. Having said that, I would think it's the most likely outcome, sadly.

It is widely accepted by Air Show organisers that 'Aviation enthusiasts' account for between 15-18% of an air show attendance fiqure. Or in other words; far from an unfluencing factor. It is the general public enjoying a day out that are the lions share of the air day public.

For sure Fairford is not an optimal location to be the only air show supported by the RAF in a 'showcase' event to satisfy the documented aims of GAI2022 to the whole country. In fairness, no single location could be expected to do so.

RIAT also has its own brand and method of doing business, and I cannot see that changing anytime soon to provide the smoke and mirrors covering the reality of the RAF putting overt PR into file 13. The Navy must be rubbing their hands in glee over this, especially the organisers at Yeovilton who still get the discounted RAF assets that RAF events do not get! RAF air shows do not get any discount for RAF assets whereas the Navy and Army events do get 50% discount. It was not always like this; but it is this year, such is the loss of appetite to sponsor blue suit events.

[diginagain]

If that's what really happened at Cottesmore,....As Abraham Lincoln famously said, Not everything you read on the Internet is necessarily true.

[camelspyyder]

There really are not that many RAF airfields left in England that could host this, apart from EGDL - decent runway + loads of aircraft parking - and as for the earlier suggestion "draft personnel in from elsewhere"...

There are barely 30000 of us now and few aircraft. BBMF and RAFAT will surely be appearing near most of the population next year - I think that's plenty to keep the service in the public eye.

Who cares if Waddington doesn't host another? Since it became the ISTAR hub the place is far too sensitive to let 1000's of unknowns roam about the place anyway.

[cokecan]

how about something a bit more inventive?

instead of one, or two, or three big airfield based events that the public go to, who not much larger numbers of smaller events where the the RAF - and AAC/RN - go to the public?

do a fast jet display along the north Cornwall coast on the last weekend of July and you'll be seen by tens of thousands, same with Pembrokeshire, Studland, Brighton, Blackpool etc... no logistics, no moving crews and support, no massive car parking and public transport efforts, and no associating the RAF with something of a rip-off...

a couple of GR4's doing a mock attack with lots of noise and flares over the bay at the weston air display would have been spectacular, you could do wokka's dropping RIB's, C-130's doing beach landings and para drops (and lots of flares..:ok:), Apache or Lynx doing stomach churning aerobatic displays, C-17, Sentry, Sentinal, RJ or Voyager with Typhoons doing a show of force - pick the date and locations and the RAF could be seen flying by hundreds of thousands of people for the cost of two hours flying and a working saturday.

people want to have the hairs on the back of their necks raised, they want to go 'ooooh', 'aaaaah', and 'fcuk me backwards that was noisy/impressive' - paying £100 for a family of four to spend 4 hours in a traffic jam and then walk around some parked aircraft is not how the public want to see their Air Force.

[WH904]

I've suggested things like this before, both on here and elsewhere. But "blue sky thinking" is ultimately pointless, as nobody has any power to influence the RAF's thinking. They'll do whatever the bean counters and PR people recommend, and we can all make a fairly good guess at what will happen - a few noises about maybe having another Waddington show if we're lucky or (more likely) a decision to abandon all shows and put their support behind RIAT. Any other outcome seems distinctly unlikely.

Personally, I guess I'm just lamenting the loss of all the RAF's air shows, but I don't imagine there's any way out of this. In an ideal world we could look at staging a really good show at a suitable base, be it Cottesmore or elsewhere, but it's not going to happen of course. If a show of any sort survives it will be quite a surprise I think.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Because, (I am told), it is about to close and have a large number of houses built on it!! Do you remember the days when the RAF (UK) en-route document had a list of 12 Master Div. airfields on the back? Things have changed!!

[Bill Macgillivray]

Arclite 01, sorry I missed out your c/s and the fact I was talking about Wyton!!

[Tiger_mate]

people want to have the hairs on the back of their necks raised, they want to go 'ooooh', 'aaaaah', and 'fcuk me backwards that was noisy/impressive' - paying £100 for a family of four to spend 4 hours in a traffic jam and then walk around some parked aircraft is not how the public want to see their Air Force.

I was people watching at the 2013 RAF Leuchars Air Show and surprised how little attention was being paid by the public to the flying display.

People instead were enjoying the ground displays, funfair and sunday market.
The Army display with its AFV & tanks that kids could climb all over was especially popular. The aerobatic team that were it has to be said: Excellent, were getting a stiff ignoring from anyone more than a few metres from the crowdline.

IMHO the way ahead is for an RAF led military tattoo that incorporates the other Armed Forces with some of the 'flying displays' purple in nature. Instead of individual Peeing contests, the UK Defence Force could actually demonstrate themselves to be a cohesive fighting force that optimises the Defence Budget to good effect. ..... And then I woke up!

(at Cottesmore and either Leeming or Dishforth)

RAF Valley had a good display in years gone by.

[NutLoose]

Saints did a good show in the past too.

Surely hurtling along a coast is not ideal as you are in a high bird activity environment.
You also will be bereft of any foreign participation if you do not have a base to operate them from.

It really does require a more Midlands / Northern based venue, RIAT will attract a greater percentage from the London area, Waddington picking up a higher proportion from t'up norfh.

I am surprised that the likes of Cottersmore couldn't be re activated, after all surely the RAF have the capability to re activate an airfields in a war.... A good exercise really.

[WH904]

Tiger, I agree entirely. I made a point of observing what was going on during the Waddington show. It's remarkable how many people don't even look at the flying display aircraft, especially youngsters. Most of the kids I noticed were playing football, not looking at the aircraft.

It's symptomatic of the way things are now. As you'll see on an adjacent thread, some numpty has had a go at me for supporting the interests of enthusiasts. As usual, he thinks we're worthless - shows are all about entertaining kids it seems. If that's really true, then they're evidently doing a pretty poor job! :)

[Martin the Martian]

I have to agree. I've attended a lot of shows in the last 30-odd years and I'm always amazed at how many people do anything other than watch the aircraft. I've seen them sunbathing, playing sports, spend most of the day in the funfair etc. The sunbathers get me; you paid how much to get a tan? Why didn't you just stay in the back garden?

I like the idea of smaller events showcasing the armed forces, and would agree that they don't always have to be on an airfield. Although, as a youngster part of the appeal of going to Culdrose or St. Mawgan was that of visiting somewhere that is normally out of bounds.

Israel hold a number of open days at military airfields during the same week every year, with good static displays, plenty of armoured equipment to look at, some catering and some diversions for the kiddies. There's not always a flying display, but at least some flypasts or an aerial demo or two. I went to the open days at Haifa and Ramat David five or six years back, and was very impressed with what was on show, particularly with Israel's understandable security concerns. The events were to show the Israeli public what their taxes went towards, and that is what is really what it is all about, surely?

On that vein, whatever happened to the Exhibition Flight and the Presentation Team? And I take it town shows are a thing of the past as well?

[Stitchbitch]

The RNALF have the right idea, a free airshow every year where they 'show off' their airforce through a series of role demos and imaginative static displays that show off the full breadth of their activities. I went to the one at Volkel when I was on loan to the AAC, and I've got to say it was great. F-16's attacked the base then a formation of Chinook and Cougars dropped off troops, then a C-130 resupplied vehicles / refuelled the cabs. Meanwhile a KC-10 refuelled an F-16, etc.

The kids loved the pyro display, and afterwards they got to sit in, play with most of the kit that had taken part. Good work KLU fellas! :ok:

[Finningley Boy]

I've just filled in an emailed questionaire from the Waddington airshow people wanting to know if I'll be looking to attend the 2016 airshow and what they can do to improve things for me. The tone of the email did seem to indicate that they are definitely planning one. Can't quite understand why it would be all that difficult to hold one somewhere else in 2015. Would Coningsby honestly not do? If not, why not?:8

FB:)

[andrewn]

Wow, reading this makes me appreciate how desperate things have got when the best (only) alternatives to Waddington are both none RAF locations, one of which isn't really an airfield anymore!

As for 2015 specifically then where there's a will there's a way I guess��

[MAINJAFAD]

Would Coningsby honestly not do? If not, why not?

Finningley Boy

Coningsby is a non starter as the road's get blocked up with just the normal commute into work by the station personnel, plus the crowd line that can be put in is minuscule (there are only two access roads into to the camp area the B1192 (North / South) and the A153 (East / West). Plus of course there is the QRA commitment. (yes I know Leuchars did an Airshow with QRA, but that airfield isn't as packed as Coningsby is).

[Finningley Boy]

MAINJAFAD,

How did they manage with a regular airshow from the 1970s through to 1993?

How did Leuchars manage from 1945 to 2013? Or are you about to tell me they never had a QRA commitment and the roads around there are six lanes wide!
FB:)

[Finningley Boy]

Just picking up on mainjafad's observations and various others, it really strikes me how little the past has any bearing on what we think can and can't be achieved now. While its quite a way back, in 1965 when the R.A.F. celebrated the 25th Anniversary of the Battle of Britain, 12 R.A.F. stations were all open, all simultaneously. Not any where near as many as the 70 odd mentioned earlier (which was certainly the case) but relative to today, outrageous.

Further, we're not talking stations here which were carefully picked so as not to interfere with the delicate nature of of frontline operations. They included 3 V-Bomber stations; Cottesmore, Finningley and Waddington and two Fighter stations; Coltishall and Leuchars, also included was Biggin Hill, which had to commandeer the airfield every year from civilian control just to stage the "at home" day. There were two Transport bases; Abingdon and Colerne, St Mawgan, fully operational with the ASW role and 3 Squadrons of Shackletons.

No doubt anyone reading this would think ah yes but we had the resources then! But did we?

Of just 9 Vulcan Sqns, 17 aircraft (at least) were participants in the flying, including 4 solos, the rest scramble demos. 45 Lightnings flew, but there were only 6 Squadrons available plus the O.C.U. One of the Squadrons, 56, didn't participate, they had just returned from an overseas detachment but still offered a 4-ship display just 3 days before to anyone that would be happy to accept, the only taker was ultimately deemed too far with all that would be involved, St Mawgan I think, because it was determined that an overnight stay would be required when they needed to be at Wattisham bright and early on Sunday morning for the church service flypast. So, what was so less of a demand on the operational hit the ground running R.A.F. of 1965 than today. Remember of course that while today they've had Afghanistan, then they had Aden, the knife edge readiness of the 2nd T.A.F. in Germany, the V-Bomber stations also stood at a moment's reflex to launch Armageddon as the country's primary nuclear deterrent. Speaking of which, 4 of the afore mentioned Vulcans all came from 617 Sqn, one of the 3 Blue Steel units, they provided a demonstration quick reaction scramble at Finningley. The two Leuchars Squadrons, each sharing the Northern Q between them, and having already started intercepting Bears and Bisons as well as deploying for months at a time to stand guard in case they were needed to escort transport aircraft down the Berlin corridor, something which happened more than once or twice. One can only conclude that the real change is in the scale by which we judge the demand on resources and how it is justified to the wider public. Oh and you could walk or cycle past onto the each of the at home stations for free as well!:ok:

FB:)

[Tankertrashnav]

Although, as a youngster part of the appeal of going to Culdrose or St. Mawgan was that of visiting somewhere that is normally out of bounds.




Culdrose is still going, but of course like all the others it has shrunk in what it can offer. Highlight back in the 80s for me was Concorde doing a wide circuit which passed directly over my field at about 700' AGL. Over the years it's had some terrific displays, including the Reds (frequently) and Vulcan 558 a couple of years back. It has however been cursed by bad weather, one year you couldn't see the tops of the lamp posts in Helston and even the seagulls were walking!

[NutLoose]

As Wittering is going to be re activated, could they not use that next year?

[WH904]

Wittering is a perfectly viable location. So is Scampton, so is Cottesmore, none is perfect but all three could be used if the will was there. Point is, the will isn't there. As far as I can determine, there is no interest in relocating the show. The concern now seems to be whether any show at all will re-emerge in 2016.

Maybe the way forward is to look at a pseudo-IAT type of event that has direct RAF support, but is organised without the RAF. No reason why a show couldn't return to Finningley. It was a monumentally popular event, and at a perfect location. The airport isn't really an issue - there are so few flights they could be accommodated within a show (this has been done at other airport show venues). One would think that Peel would welcome a huge event to publicise the airport too.

Rewind, take Finningley's show back from Waddington and return it to Finningley! Sorry, Doncaster/Sheffield *cough* *spit* :)

[Tiger_mate]

^^^ What he said - however:

The logistics of holding an air show involve providing accomodation for air/groundcrews and is dependent upon the influx of hundreds of Servicemen who also require accomodating. Waddington and Cosford use University Accomodation that is vacated during the summer months. I dont know what Finningley used to use, but can reasonably speculate that Mess' and barrack blocks that are no longer there were maxed out. If the RAF were unwilling to provide a (traditionally phase one student) workforce, the event is a none starter.

All hypothetical as I understand that as I type the meeting is taking place at Air Command that will conclude with a recomendation to CAS. Whatever the writing on the wall says, we are likely to find out fairly soon. Taxpayers prefer a tax hold and increased pay in their pocket to a day out watching aeroplanes and eating overpriced burgers. Without a dedicated budget approval .... Why is that chap putting a black hood over his head and picking up an axe?

[WH904]

As you say, Waddington relied on student accommodation in Lincoln, therefore it seems reasonable to assume that similar arrangements could apply with Finningley (ie- Doncaster or Sheffield). Naturally there are logistical issues, but in principle there's really no reason why Finningley couldn't be used as a show site. As ever, it's really down to will and motivation. One assumes that nobody has any interest in creating a civilian-run event even with RAF support. Likewise, Waddington's organisers seem to be interested only in the future of Waddington's show (if it has one).

[HTB]

WH

I can think of one reason that the former RAF Finningley couldn't be used as a show site, it's a civil airport with scheduled arrival and departure movements, passengers and all that entails. Don't think the owners, Peel Airports, will be too keen to have their operation messed about.

Mister B

[WH904]

see my previous posts on that point

[Davef68]

And yet for many years (albeit pre-9/11) Prestwick held an airshow with static and flying displays, whilst also maintaining it's arrivals and departures.

[Hosepipe]

Ah well I remember the RAF "At Home" days at Biggin Hill - and of course, completely free!

[WH904]

Indeed, plus Teesside, Swansea, etc. Finningley's scheduled flights would probably amount to no more than two or three during a show day so it's a minor issue. The major issue is convincing anyone to do it!

[Martin the Martian]

Sticking my neck out...

Brize Norton south site, with entry via Britannia gate and Burford Road crash gate, and a park and ride from the sports field.

[diginagain]

... and shove all the participants into the Gateway.



My vote would go to Elvington as a venue.

[WH904]

No point - Fairford is already used for RIAT. Last thing the UK needs is another show in the south. Elvington's a good site although aircraft parking space is a bit dodgy (there's only the main apron), and road access is pretty poor. It's probably a little too far north too.

[diginagain]

It's probably a little too far north too.On that basis, it might be said that Finningly/Cottesmore/Wittering are all a little too far south, unless you're a dyed-in-the-wool anorak.

[Finningley Boy]

Why don't they build a brand new airfield, especially for the purpose, right in the middle of the midlands and hold all the R.A.F's airshows there?!:ok:

FB:)

[NutLoose]

We could hold it in France, after all they held part of their cycle race in the UK :p

[Yozzer]

Why don't they build a brand new airfield, especially for the purpose, right in the middle of the midlands and hold all the R.A.F's airshows there?!


Somewhere near Bruntingthorpe; because the RAF AT fleet is already there!

[WH904]

oh dear, I see a drift into schoolyard stuff... another thread comes to a close :)

[Burnswannabe]

In an effort to keep this thread open, mostly because the suggestions are keeping me entertained, I would like to add the views of many of those at Waddington.

At last, at least the runway rebuild will give us a year off. A year when we don't have to deal with the uneducated and the unwashed. A year when we don't sacrifice our airfield to traders desperate to recover their costs from the despicable rates the airshow charge them. A year we don't have to have the public assume we plan the show when in fact those of us on uniform have almost nothing to do with the running of the show. A year when we don't lose yet another weekend (in reality nearly 2 weeks) when I have better things to do like run a very busy and manpower critical deployment plot or spend one of just a limited number of weekends at home with the family.

A year off from pretending the whole thing is for charity when it raises so very little compared to the effort of staging it. A year off from all the unappreciative ppruners who don't understand that the rules have changed since their day in the sixties and that obeying the current ones means a boring fly through or months of work up, not a criticism of previous air displays just a fact of current life. A thorough work up is impossible when the only real flying is in theatre and the rest is the bare minimum for currency. Also, the rules have changed for a reason, no one likes to see dead spectators on the news.

I standby for the reactions of the current generation not understanding the need to promote the forces. Of single force thinking when it comes to airshows. If the navy want to run an airshow I am all for it and will turn up with an aircraft to support it. If the RAF wants a show the entire strength can do their bit. As it is it is the RAF Waddington show with a lot of generous civilian volunteers, an amazing number if RAF Waddington personnel who go above and beyond in helping out in every way they can and a whole host of display crews doing, in effect, what is their day job for 2 years.

If it is an RAF show then if/when the next one happens I assume I won't spend Monday morning picking up used nappies on the FOD plus because RAF Lossiemouth personnel will be on site for that joyful task. Unlike the last 6 years.

Or we could just pay for a civilian field that was sold long ago or open a closed airfield. Just man it for the weekend. Just setup appropriate radio aids and an ILS. We barely have the resources to run the fields we have, take a look for spare cash in the budget and if there is any let's spend it on sensible things like an extension to Waddington to make it suitable for the Rivet Joint, or an ILS for Waddington on 02 to make it suitable for ops rather than an airshow. Perhaps a perimeter track instead of having to drive across the active to get to a normal working environment on the opposite side of the airfiand. We could even go crazy and maybe have a maritime capability or a tanker with a boom so it can refuel the multiple types the RAF that are boom capable.

Or we could just delay the desperately needed runway rebuild and continue the status quo for another year.

Rant off.

[Non Emmett]

There seems go be a hell of a lot of valid reasons why air shows cannot readily take place these days or even perhaps ought not to take place at all on RAF stations none of which I wish to take issue with as I recognise I am a civvie interested in aviation matters. As a civvie I will variously be regarded as the unwashed uninterested public or a spotter, there seems to be little in between according to many ppruners !


My interest in aviation matters began whilst I was at school in Cornwall with many boys who hailed from RAF families and were based at St.Mawgan and St.Eval and I have sought to retain an interest in military aviation ever since. These days for the first time in my life I know no one in the armed services.


I am sure if I was based at Waddington I would regard air show tasks as a real pain but how are the public expected to know anything of our forces if they never seen them. I have attended many of the RIAT shows at Fairford and before that at Greenham Common but like many here I find it seems to have lost its way.


I hope there is a way forward.


Was the mindset totally different in the days when the RAF put on scores of Battle of Britain air shows or is it all down to current RAF manning levels ?

[Valiantone]

As someone who grew up in Lincolnshire in the 1970s and 80s with the local airshows, at Binbrook, Coningsby and Waddington. And the BoB airshow over the border at Finningley.

I will say that I do miss them all holding them even though two bases are now long gone.

But I would rather they rebuild it (Waddington) so its fit for purpose for another 40 odd years to operate its current and future roles and whatever comes after that. If there is a role left for it, I dread to think what the sadly depleted RAF will have left in 20 years time. (I suspect my grandfather will be turning in his grave at the state its been cut down to even now)

I had heard that the only good parking ramps at Scampton are those used by the Reds, even if they did do the runway last year.

I am all for the guys and girls having a well earned years break in 2015, and can see why its current role hinders holding it, so I just hope an alternative around this part of the world can be found. If not I will miss the show at Waddington, as much as I miss Binbrook, if as it seems its never likely going to happen again. . :sad:

V1

[NutLoose]

Burns wannabe, u seem to forget a lot of those posting here have done exactly the same... Enjoy your nappy..

[Wander00]

NL - good idea, then entry would be €10, not £40, and on-site food would be cheaper too...hat, coat.............

[Pontius Navigator]

The Waddo show was 'supported' by the RAF. The Coningsby one was not. While I ran one it absorbed all our working time for a few weeks. As Burn said, it absorbed at least 4 days from everyone else.

At Waddo before it took over from Finningly I asked several airmen - air show, or £20 a head and a free weekend. To a man it was £20. Times that by 2,000 and you cleared £40,000 for charity, no sweat.

[dctyke]

What Burn is saying is unpalatable truth sadly. I would think 50% of posters on PP know very little about LEAN and the effect it had on the working week and manpower.................. let alone morale.

[NutLoose]

I look at it as it is the one time of the year the public gets to see what their taxes are being spent on.

It also works wonders at getting the public behind the Services, I just wish they would televise it as they used to do Farnborough, Christ they even televise the Download Festival.

Slagging off the public and calling them names is simply self defeating, you are doing one show, postings in one year meant I got lumbered with two.

[Pontius Navigator]

Having picked up loaded nappies and 'checked' suspect parcels in the toilets I am with Burns and Tyke.

My day job was suspended at both Waddo and Coningsby for the duration. I know we did and do a far better job than the professionals (remember Abingdon and East Fortune) but PR and recruiting is not the role of a front line unit.

The Army doesn't mount all-arms international open days. The Navy contents itself with ship open days. I was 'recruited' at the age of 10 simply by going to our local Aux AF, Hooton Park, on BofB day. They were not open to the public yet they let us in and got passing BofB aircraft to fly through.

Does Joe Public want and all singing fun fair with aircraft or to see the RAF?

A local open day, chatting to a few thousand will do more for local good will. We still have a lot of unit and they can attract visitors without a fun fare or circus.

On my last unit we opened for 4 hrs or so and got 20 times the number of visitors to unit strength - and that in the working week.

[Pontius Navigator]

I might add that air shows in the 80s were, like Tacevals, part of a station commanders promotion exams.

At the annual COs meeting they each revealed their charity take. Our man, ex-101, felt seriously embarrassed with nothing to declared.

[Ancient Squipper]

Looks like its Cosford or nothing then.

[Finningley Boy]

If it is an RAF show then if/when the next one happens I assume I won't spend Monday morning picking up used nappies on the FOD plus because RAF Lossiemouth personnel will be on site for that joyful task. Unlike the last 6 years.

Bluidy Hell!

I was aware that not all those pressed into airshow service were entirely estatic about it, but to have to contend with this seems a tad unreasonable. Surely people should put all such things in a sealed plastic bag, they're easy enough to get hold of, then dispose of at an appropriate juncture. Maybe launch it out the window while driving home or something!?!:yuk:

FB:)

[Wensleydale]

"My day job was suspended at both Waddo and Coningsby for the duration".

You were lucky then....mine wasn't! I have done some voluntary work at the last few Airshows since I retired and found that the Airshow was great to run with when I had got the time to devote to it and could pick the task that I wanted to do. As a volunteer, I could (within reason) choose my "shifts" and decide how much I wanted to put in - this was completely different to being given a task (that perhaps you did not want to do) and then have to fit it in around your daily tasks. The ability to leave at 1500 before the roads got busy was great (although getting up at 0530 was still a pain).


At the end of the day, the airshow was OK when you did not have to produce a fistful of risk assessments, write lots of letters/e-mails to the airshow office to justify what your plans are, and spend hours chasing around the suppliers to find out why they have not given you the items that you ordered months before but have not been sent to you. (The sergeant supplier decided that you could not have them, sir). And then have to do the fod plod when you have to meet a deadline with an external contractor during you day job.

[Pontius Navigator]

I meant simply no time for the day job.

[Martin the Martian]

RIAT make a lot of use of Air Cadets, and while I am sure Waddington and Cosford do as well, perhaps they could use more of them to help to alleviate the staffing levels?

[Yozzer]

RIAT make a lot of use of RAF Cosford staff: Permanent staff & students who get joed with two airshows in as many weeks.

ATC Cadets have their limitations and cannot be expected to be the voice of the organiser when faced with an irate car driver who whilst trying to get off-site has not moved in an hour. Equally the new-age familes who set up a squatters campsite on the crowdline are a bit much for a young person to deal with. I dont wish to undermine the Cadets; they do a first class job, but quite understandably, only when the going is good. Phase one students and UAS students are little better placed, but thankfully there is usually a gorrilla with chevrons nearby to advise the public on site etiquette. :E

I did car park management at Finningley once as said 'gorrilla' and created a naughty square (cul-de-sac) in which certain drivers were directed; it guaranteed a marshall manafactured delay and kept team spirits high. The marshallers of all ranks and organisations get more than their fair share of abuse from the tossers in our society.

[Martin the Martian]

Fair enough, Yozzer. As always, use as appropriate. And I liked the 'naughty square' idea...:E

[Finningley Boy]

What I did notice at Waddington this year was the parking, was it the Japanese Army that had been hired or were they Ghurkhas? I don't mean to get the two confused but they certainly seemed to be quite well organised as was the carparking. The soft Khaki peaked caps had me thinking of Bridge on the river Kwai or Too Late the Hero! One more point here about R.A.F. airshows today and yesterday, this was another indication of how so few R.A.F. personnel are actually employed in any visible role. Back in they olden days it would be all R.A.F. personnel in No. 1 dress uniform doing everything. For quite a few years now everything seems to have slid down the scale of the standard which set the R.A.F. at home day apart from the indistinguishable commercial out door event look of now. What with all R.A.F. personnel that are seen least ways, dressed what some would describe as appropriately I'm sure, in camouflage or flying suits incongruously topped off with hi-vis tabs.

As an old ex-National Serviceman and family friend once said to me when examining my boots while I was in the A.T.C. turning to my father he said, "see this Jim, you don't hear the sound of marching boots any longer eh!"

FB:)