Another mystery Canberra?

[WH904]

I know the aircraft is well known, but there's a long-running saga concerning the aircraft's initial paint scheme. The attached image suggests that it may have been painted fluorescent orange - at least one former Shorts man claims it was, but there's no colour imagery to prove or disprove the theory.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y146/Shefftim/orange.jpg

[Brian Abraham]

Apparently the aircraft sported a number of different paint schemes. One correspondent on the net has seen the aircraft in silver and dayglo, all white, RAE Raspberry Ripple and the final Hemp. There is some suggestion that there may also have been a pink scheme.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/8/3/3/0216338.jpg

A few XH132 schemes here

Air-Britain : XH132 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/search.php?q=XH132&u=reg)
SC 9 CANBERRA CONVERSION (http://www.a2zeemodels.co.uk/sc9-canberra-conversion-4624-p.asp)

[BEagle]

I remember doing a practice Q launch against that thing back in the 1980s. A heavy F-4 against a light, manoeuvring modified PR9....:uhoh:

Last time I saw that aircraft, or rather the nose section, was at RAF St Mawgan in the early 1990s during a ULAS summer camp - back in the days when the RAF could afford its own military trainers, enough QFIs to fly them and to run annual UAS summer camps....:mad:

[Hotel Tango]

I found this on the Brtitmodeller forum:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/54700-the-ultimate-day-glow-canberra/?hl=%2Bthe+%2Bultimate+%2Bday+%2Bglow+%2Bcanberra

[Edit: took sometime for me to get the link right. You should now see the model version of the dayglow Canberra. Text suggests that that particular colour scheme was short-lived]

[WH904]

Well, the accepted wisdom was that it started out white, then went into silver, then "Raspberry Ripple" and finally hemp (after it was grounded). I never doubted any of this as photos support that story, but the photo I posted above does clearly show that it was painted before the all-white scheme. The problem is that a black & white photo doesn't clarify anything. Instinctively, I'd assume it was painted in yellow primer, but I've heard various people claim that at least one former Shorts employee insists it was fluorescent orange.

I'm still not convinced, as it seems unlikely that it would have been painted orange and then repainted so very swiftly in white. Seems like a very expensive proposition. Plus, it seems odd that there are photos of the aircraft in every guise, but not orange. And of course primer yellow would be a far more logical colour in any case.

On the other hand, one recalls that the RAE's Javelin was painted overall fluorescent orange, so it's not such a wild idea... and the photo does look very like the way that fluorescent orange looks in black & white. I suppose the key to this story is just how reliable the "man from Shorts" was/is.

So, the mystery continues!

[Brian Abraham]

And of course primer yellow would be a far more logical colour in any caseI very much doubt an aircraft would have been left in its primer and then decals, roundels, serial no etc applied. But strange things do happen.

You may wish to contact the admistrator on this site. He writesWell Here she is! Lady in Red, this may be a surprise to some, it was to me, until the Nat's I had no idea that this scheme existed, it came about from a conversation with a fellow member of IPMS Ireland, he just dropped it in to the conversation, " did you know the SC.9 first flew in a short lived Day Glow Red paint scheme"? says he, O! I didn't says I, plans already hatching in my mind! So then it was time for research, after looking at all the photo's I have of the SC.9 nothing new came to light, just Silver, White, Raspberry Ripple, so my next port of call was a man I know, that if any one could help he could, so off went an e-mail to a certain place in the North of Ireland, and sure enough, back came conformation that the Fluorescent Red Paint job was indeed known of, but unfortunately no colour photo's of it are known to exist.......She only stayed that way for a short time at the very start of her life as the SC.9

http://ipmscanberrasig.webs.com/apps/forums/topics/show/1763189-sc-9-red-herring-or-flight-of-fancy-

[BEagle]

The only orange Canberras I can think of were the 3 ex-RAF B2/B6 aircraft operated by the Luftwaffe:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/photo-canberra-01l_zpsccfb6c31.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/photo-canberra-01l_zpsccfb6c31.jpg.html)

More information here: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/413281-luftwaffe-canberras.html .

[WH904]

It's interesting that John says he asked someone at Shorts about this. I was under the impression that the story was being circulated mostly by word of mouth, but if Shorts can actually confirm that it was initially painted orange, I guess that's as close as we're going to get to some facts on this - so I'll drop a line over to Shorts and see what they have to say.

Thanks guys!

Strange business though if it is true - one wonders why fluorescent orange would have even been chosen for a paint scheme, and just as crazy is the notion of stripping it all off again!

[Above The Clouds]

WH904
Strange business though if it is true - one wonders why fluorescent orange would have even been chosen for a paint scheme


The live target aircraft from Llanbedr destined for the bottom of the Irish Sea were painted orange.

[WH904]

Yellow and red actually :)

[cockney steve]

I know absolutely nothing about Military aircraft,not a lot more about Civilian ones :ooh: HOWEVER!
Ihave been in the Motor Trade and can tellyou that "fluorescent " colours are/were applied as a WHITE reflective coat followed by a translucent COLOUR coat.

Some reds, yellows ,greens and blues can be made without solid pigmentation. Indeed, it's sometimes so difficult to"block- out" the underlying colour that the whole job has to be painted in a solid pigment first.

So, it's possible your subject was painted with a white ground-coat and subsequently with a tinted lacquer to turn the white into "dayglo"

hth.

[WH904]

I know what you mean, but there are lots of photos that show the aircraft finished in white over a number of years - so it was evidently only in the initial paint scheme (whatever it was!) for a very short period until it was painted white. I hope someone can get to the bottom of the story as it would be quite remarkable if it was indeed painted fluorescent orange - must have looked dazzling!

[Fishtailed]

BEagle's photo brought back memories. 99+34 visited Warton in March 1991. Being a member of FTI, it was great to see a whole aircraft painted in our colour, Instrumentation Orange, (instead of just brackets, boxes and wires). International Orange, to give the paint its correct name, is the colour the Golden Gate Bridge is painted by the way.

[WH904]

Aargh, the brave and scary world of colours! Thing is, International Orange isn't orange, it's red :)

[Heimdall]

What was XH132’s original role?

The one-off PR9 Canberra XH132 was unlike any other PR9 because of the unusual nose configuration. My understanding is that XH132 was designed to sneak up behind Warsaw pact aircraft and record their infrared and radar signature. However, my information may be completely incorrect – so what was the aircraft's original role?

Heimdall

[Yellow Sun]

The recently published book, "Listening In" ISBN 9 781902 109381, contains considerable information about XH132 and its employment on Op Harpoon; the collection of IR data. This was succeeded by Project Zabra, a steerable system fitted to WT305.

YS

[redsetter]

XH132's original role was a carry aircraft for the Red Top seeker. It then flew on various IR-related trials before Operation Harpoon. Later became the carry aircraft for the Skyflash hoimg head.

[Heimdall]

My copy of 'Listening In' arrived in the post yesterday. Excellent book that details at length exactly what 51 Sqn got up to in the Cold War, as well as detailing XH132's various roles. Well worth a read for anyone with an interest in ELINT.

Heimdall

[Yellow Sun]

Excellent book that details at length exactly what 51 Sqn got up to in the Cold War

Does it indeed :suspect:

YS

[Heimdall]

All right, exactly was probably the wrong word to use, however, as very little else has been published about 51 Sqn's activities, this book is a step in the right direction, particularly about Washington, Comet R1 and Canberra operations. The Warsaw Pact monitored the flight of these aircraft whenever they were near their borders, so I believe it's high time the veil of outdated secrecy was lifted on these particular operations, although I suspect those involved would completely disagree.

At some point in the future I assume a more detailed book describing Nimrod R1 operations will eventually be published and I look forward to reading it - perhaps Yellow Sun might like to contribute!!

Heimdall

[Wander00]

Been co-located twice with 51, at Watton and Wyton ( always wondered if the idea was to confuse Ivan with the similar sounding names). As is the case with "secrecy", often wondered about the detail of what they did, and presumably will do in the future

[Yellow Sun]

All right, exactly was probably the wrong word to use, however, as very little else has been published about 51 Sqn's activities, this book is a step in the right direction, particularly about Washington, Comet R1 and Canberra operations. The Warsaw Pact monitored the flight of these aircraft whenever they were near their borders, so I believe it's high time the veil of outdated secrecy was lifted on these particular operations, although I suspect those involved would completely disagree.

At some point in the future I assume a more detailed book describing Nimrod R1 operations will eventually be published and I look forward to reading it - perhaps Yellow Sun might like to contribute!!


I fully agree that a book like this is long overdue. However I disagree with you that those involved would would be averse to details of their activities being published. Unfortunately in respect of the Washington and early Canberra operations it is probably too late to ask them. Indeed the Canberra and Comet crews are a fast diminishing group as well.

The "veil" has been lifted a little before. I would recommend:

Richard J. Aldrich, The Hidden hand, ISBN 0-7195-5423 3, pub 2001
and by the same author, GCHQ, ISBN 13 978-0-00-727847-3, pub 2010
You may or may not agree with the conclusions that he draws in the latter book.

In a broader sense, DJ Thorp's, The Silent Listener, ISBN 978 7524 7739 8, pub 2012, provides a good picture of some of the difficulties in operating in a sensitive environment.

What Listening In clearly depicts is the degree of oversight that was exercised in respect of RPFs. The Foreign Office took them very seriously and their influence was real.

It is an area that will always be difficult to research, for because of the classification of the activities there was little opportunity to record the more personal accounts and thus the record will always appear sparse and somewhat thin. By the time that other agencies have consented to the release of details, the passing years will have thinned out the participants and much will have been lost forever.

YS

PS Heimdall I have sent you a couple of PMs

[redsetter]

As an example of the secrecy still surrounding RPFs, an recent-ish attempt get a document relating to Lancaster/Lincoln ops during the late 1940s declassified was rebuffed by the MoD on the grounds that it contained operational details and thus could be of assistance to a hostile power.

The idea that details of the conduct of a 1948 Lincoln sortie, with a single chap down the back twiddling his WW2-vintage receiver as the aircraft plodded along over the Baltic, could in any way compromise Rivet Joint operations seems fairly ludicrous to me, but there you are.

One unfortunate result of the unnecessary secrecy is that a lot of the participants in those operations won't get the wider recognition they deserve (at least, as Yellow Sun notes, probably not in their lifetimes).

[cometracer]

XH132 was overall day-glo orange except for a black nose and a black band round the rear fuselage when she was rolled out. I have a very distant colour slideI took in May or June 1961 from Victoria Park, as near as you could get in those days to Sydenham. I saw her flying several times. Who then would have thought that years later I would fly her, firstly in overall silver, then after re-paint at Kemble, in Raspberry Ripple when on the Radar Research Squadron at Bedford. Queen of the Canberras.

[feroxeng]

I wasn't exactly standing beside 'cometracer' but I have seen his colour slide and remember XH132 very clearly at Belfast, its colour scheme of orange dayglo being rather out of the ordinary.

[Rossian]

......was there still a nav trapped in the coal hole behind that funny nose??

The Ancient Mariner

[Yellow Sun]

Some serious thread drift, but those interested in 51Sqn's activities might like to read "My Secret Falklands War" by Sidney Edwards. It's available from a site that shares its name with a South American river.

YS

[canberrasig]

Hi cometracer

I'd be very interested in seeing the the slide if you still have it? As you will have gathered I was told by people in the know that she was indeed day-glo at the time of roll out. Going by the B&W photos I have I was 99% sure this was correct but a colour photo would remove the 1% doubt.

John

[canberrasig]

Hi Rossian

Yes indeed there was, but unlike his PR.9 equivalent the "Nav" in the SC.9 had to climb a stepladder to enter the nose via the now hinged and later removable frangible hatch, not an easy task!

John

[canberrasig]

Hi YS

Sounds interesting! :ok:

John

[Rossian]

....thankyou for that. There was a chap on my IOT in '63 who went into PR9s and spent ALL of his flying career in that coal hole and I think he went on (as I did) until age 57. Last met in flight planning in Akrotiri for the first time since South Cerney (I recognised his Rhodesian?? accent).

The Ancient Mariner

[canberrasig]

No problem Rossian This is a photo of the crew preparing for a flight the hatch as been removed. As I said early on the hatch was hinged at the rear but this method was abandoned.
http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af35/canberra-sig/canberra-sig027/CN85294-2mod_zpseiagve4x.jpg

John

[OMG Itz Fulovstarz]

Hi Cometracer,

I would also love to see the colour shot of the dayglo XH132! Please??

I only saw her once, at Sydenham (I refuse to call it anything else!) in or around the 1984/85 timeframe.

She was taking off from Rwy 22, unfortunately I was walking to our line hut for a "wee burn" in a Bulldog and camera was nowhere to hand. She was, off course, in Raspberry Ripple at that stage. She looked absolutely stunning.

I've promised myself to build a model of her in these markings, but then found out about the rumoured dayglo scheme! Have now found four B&W shots of her at Sydenham in this scheme, but would love to see a splash of colour, no matter how distant.

Hope you can help,
Michael.

P.S. Also frequented Victoria Park, courtesy of my Gran, to view Short's finest in the late 60's/early 70's. Happy times!

[WH904]

I'd love to see the photo too - it would be nice to settle this mystery once and for all with a colour photo! :)

[Daraboy]

I found these three pictures, although still not colour Canberra Crazy - Canberra Pictures (http://canberratalk.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=general&num=1235469686&action=display&start=210)


scroll to the bottom of the listed page.

[juke12]

I'm coming rather late to this, but I have been searching on and off for many years for information about a red Canberra. In the fifties as an eight or nine year old I saw a red Canberra taking off from Sydenham. It was, to m,e towards cherry red in colour and I'm sure it had black fixtures of some sort on the nose. As a kid I drew it many times and always put like an aerial array on the nose. It was taking off toward the city and became airbourne in line with the end of my street. I got the idea in my head that it was maybe something to do with weather research as it took off just after a thunder storm and I have the idea this happened at least twice over a period. The first time I am certain about, the additional time(s) not 100%. Our street ran at right angles to the runway and ended just beside the railway line so I got a great view of nany things.
Not to do with this forum but I saw the Seamew as it headed straight into the ground, disappeared behind the sheds then a huge pall of smoke, from my house window. From the railway bridge I saw the Short SC1 rising a few feet off it's pad. I also sneaked into the park to see the wreck of a vampire? that crashed just after take-off, mystified the guards how we got in (the bendy bar<G>).

[canberrasig]

I'm coming rather late to this, but I have been searching on and off for many years for information about a red Canberra. In the fifties as an eight or nine year old I saw a red Canberra taking off from Sydenham. It was, to m,e towards cherry red in colour and I'm sure it had black fixtures of some sort on the nose. As a kid I drew it many times and always put like an aerial array on the nose. It was taking off toward the city and became airbourne in line with the end of my street. I got the idea in my head that it was maybe something to do with weather research as it took off just after a thunder storm and I have the idea this happened at least twice over a period. The first time I am certain about, the additional time(s) not 100%. Our street ran at right angles to the runway and ended just beside the railway line so I got a great view of nany things.
It's a shame you didn't get a photo juke12, I'm still searching for that holy grail
http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af35/canberra-sig/Britmodler%20photos/IMG_1341_zpsubnbskpw.jpg

John

[TCU]

XH132 features in Mike Brooks rather good book Trials and Errors about his career as a test pilot. Indeed there are two pictures of it....both in B&W, but both sporting a black nose and a single colour fuselage, albeit late in its career at the RRS

[juke12]

The Canberra I saw I remember as having the 'bubble' type cockpit, like the German red ones. I have only seen the German ones on Google so they're not interfering with my recollection! I suppose the years could dull the details but two things I'm clear on is that it was all red and had an array of some description protruding from the front. I have seen a white Canberra with the bubble cockpit and a single long probe out the front online today. It may not be real as so many models look so good in small pics but I would be happy to accept it was 'mine' if only it had red paint. Probably never find an answer to my quest.
Kids didn't carry cameras in those days<G> and I was just playing out in the street when it appeared so wouldn't have got a shot of it anyway.