Flybe

[EMB-145LR]

With Flybe advertising for FOs and opening the external recruitment process for the first time in about four years, now seems like as good a time as ever to ask about current T&Cs and lifestyle over there. Afraid I have a barrage of questions, apologies in advance.

- Are the current payscales on PPJN.com accurate?
- What is average take home for FOs and Captains on each fleet?
- How good are the staff travel benefits, ZEDs etc?
- What is the average roster like? Lots of night-stopping, or can it be family friendly with plenty of nights at home? Bidding system, PBS, lines?
- What does the future hold? I know the rest of the 175 order was deferred, are there any plans to recommence deliveries at some point? Is the 195 fleet going to be completely retired?
- How long is the wait to transition from Q to EJet, and then from right seat to left?

Again, apologies for the bombardment of questions. I've been flying overseas for the past five years and would dearly love to return home to the UK. I'm currently on the E170/190 having just transitioned from the ERJ-145, but I'd happily fly the Q400 or anything else to get a stable job in the UK.

[JB007]

A large thread in Interviews, Jobs and Sponsorship to read through...

[Wireless]

That thread on interviews and jobs is first 4 pages of wanabees arguing about jot courses and whether a dash has gas turbines. Current experienced flybe crew prob read this category more and would be more able to answer er, "more mature" questions of lifestyle, outlook etc.

[Deano777]

- Are the current payscales on PPJN.com accurate?
- What is average take home for FOs and Captains on each fleet?
- How good are the staff travel benefits, ZEDs etc?
- What is the average roster like? Lots of night-stopping, or can it be family friendly with plenty of nights at home? Bidding system, PBS, lines?
- What does the future hold? I know the rest of the 175 order was deferred, are there any plans to recommence deliveries at some point? Is the 195 fleet going to be completely retired?
- How long is the wait to transition from Q to EJet, and then from right seat to left?

1. As far as I can see the current payscales are about right

2. Difficult to put an average on it because the payscales climb on an annual basis and some bases nightstop more than others. I would say the average could be something like this:

Q400 FO - £35k
Q400 SFO - £45k
Q400 CP - £70k
EJET FO - £42k
EJET SFO - £52k
EJET CP - £77k

There's far too many variables to be accurate.

3. Staff Travel benefits? They are ok, that's it. After 4 years service you get 2 free firms per year, but you cannot book them in peak times and you can only book them within a month of your departure. This doesn't actually make them free firms, but more like another set of standby tickets.

4. Average roster? Depends what base you work from. If you work from BHX, MAN or EXT then you are going to nightstop a hell of alot. MAN is particularly bad and EXT is about to get a whole lot worse come the Winter. Other bases should see you in your own bed for the majority of a roster period.
Forget bidding for particular lines of work, it won't happen.

5. The future looks very bright. Lots of expansion. The E195 fleet is being retired come the winter schedule but I think there's plans to maybe keep 2-3 flying. The bottom line is the E195s are looking to be completely withdrawn from service. The E175s on order which were deferred are to recommence delivery in 2016 provided they cannot be offloaded in the meantime. There's alot of rumours about Airbuses and ATRs etc but this should be treated as just that - a rumour. Nothing official has come from the company yet and I am sure we'll be the second people to know behind the city. We are a public company afterall.

6. All promotions go in this order:

Start on the Q400 as an FO
Q400 FO/SFO to EJET FO/SFO
EJET or Q400 FO/SFO to Q400 Captain
Q400 Captain to EJET Captain.

As for the time to each, well again it is very much dependant on alot of variables. At a best guess I would put the timescale down to something like this:

Q400 FO to EJET FO - 4 to 5 years and climbing
Q400/EJET FO to Q400 Captain - 4 to 5 years
Q400 Captain to EJET Captain - 8 to 10 years and climbing

I hope this helps a little.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Deano, take home pay!

Pretty sure Ejet drivers aren't grossing over 110k a year and with a max (theoretically) of 4.5k a year in duty pay (which it never will be) you'll be struggling to gross even close to 70.

[Deano777]

Yep, sorry about that. I read net pay but still put gross pay. I've just put those figures into a salary calculator and come up with the following monthly take home pay based on a 4% pension contribution:

Q400 FO - (£35k) £2136
Q400 SFO - (£45k) £2680
Q400 CP - (£70k) £3838
EJET FO - (£42k) £2515
EJET SFO - (£52k) £3004
EJET CP - (£77k) £4162

[EMB-145LR]

Fantastic info Deano, thanks very much, and thanks to everyone that PM'd me too.

[hobnobanyone]

Dash F/O (not SFO)... 6 1/2 years down the line:

Good month: circa £2700-2800. Bad month £2500

Includes pension contribution as that goes out before tax.
It's a good place to work really. We all grumble about things, but no company is perfect. And the people you work with are great.

[mikehammer]

Excellent info on this thread, thanks. Is the Newcastle base closed now? I live just down the road and the two hour commute to Edinburgh is tiring at times.

[Deano777]

Mikehammer

Yes the NCL base is closed unfortunately. The seven bases are Belfast City, Birmingham Edinburgh, Exeter, Glasgow, Manchester & Southampton.

[speedrestriction]

It in good to see the business plan paying dividends at FlyBe and a brighter future for all involved. However the rumours about Airbuses and ATRs have been doing the rounds for at least half a decade. ATR - maybe at some stage in the future, A320 series aircraft is not going to happen at FlyBe however. For those who doubt it just look back to last year's presentation in the investor's section of the company website. Bigger jets do not fit with the CEO's (thus far successful) strategy of operating a core network of <90min flights between city pairs that are either not served or are under served by the LCCs/legacy carriers.

Occasionally there is "Ah but we will fill a 319 on a sun route out of BHX/SOU/BOH/EXT" but this brings is back to one of Mr.Hammad's Cs - Cost. Where is the cost advantage for BE in operating a small fleet of narrowbody Airbus vs. Monarch/Jet2/EZY? Without cost advantage there is no ability to offer a lower fare and increase market share. Small market share means inability to negotiate for the lower airport charges than the competitors. It is already a highly contested market segment with overcapacity for the foreseeable future.

The new management team are going to be intently focused on cost, return on investment, profit and share price. Pushing up airframe size will affect the costbase - older airframes require more maintenance (new airframes are not affordable and in any case the backlogs for Airbus narrowbodies are very long). Pushing up airframe size means direct competition with RYR/Jet2/MON/EZY - FlyBe does not have the financial resource to engage in any sort of competition that would mean running a route at a loss on a newly acquired narrowbody. A key determining factor for the management team when it comes to investment will be return. They need to spend their money wisely and they need to see a meaningful return on that investment from the get go - the company's balance sheet demands it. Finally share price - investors would not be keen to see management move away from a turnaround strategy which is bearing fruit ie. refocused network capacity on routes with no/little competition from bigger airlines.

FlyBe has undoubtedly had its ups and downs over the last five years but throughout it all the job on the day has remained interesting and rewarding with colleagues that make it a great place to work. In terms of career choices - it has been difficult for people here who have wanted to move on to bigger aircraft/companies to get a look in. Unfortunately TP and regional jet time doesn't open as many doors as it used to. Having said that, a decent number of people have left or taken redundancy over the last year to go to Flydubai, Jet2, Easyjet, Cityflyer, Monarch, SunExpress; whether that will be sustained remains to be seen. I would suggest that if you are looking to join, unless the employment market changes significantly, expect to stay here for a while. If regional flying floats your boat then you won't do better in the UK.

Obviously all this is just my opinion - I have been known to dine on hats occasionally.

[mikehammer]

Deano, thanks again.

[EMB-145LR]

Many thanks again for the wonderful replies. Just proves what a great resource PPRuNe can be with some great constructive input.

[flyingcamel]

Just a few words on the staff travel, as it's not as bad as people make out. In fact it's some of the best you can get. Sure the Flybe tickets are of limited use, unless you end up stuck in a northern base and 'visit' the south on a regular basis for family etc.

The 'other airlines' staff travel is great if you use it correctly. We have interline agreements with more or less every every major carrier which means standby tickets are available at a very reasonable price. Difficult for travelling as a family, granted, but great as a couple. The BA staff travel portal is magnificent and once set up you have no further contact with staff travel as you can do it all yourself online.

Last October half term I got return tickets to Dubai for around £200 pp on BA, Virgin and Emirates for contingency. Got on the first Emirates flight and within a week I had refunds for the rest.

It's not perfect but I think it's pretty damn good. I'd use it more if the missus wasn't a teacher. Best of luck if you're coming. You're gonna work hard! :ok:

[syfly]

If you work from BHX, MAN or EXT then you are going to nightstop a hell of alot. MAN is particularly bad and EXT is about to get a whole lot worse come the Winter. Other bases should see you in your own bed for the majority of a roster period.
Forget bidding for particular lines of work, it won't happen.


How often do the pilots change bases in a year? Perhaps rotation basis throughout a certain period of working?

[Big_Picture]

You have a base that you are assigned to and all your duties will start and end there, being local duties or night stopping elsewhere.

Twice yearly there is a bid in which you can ask to move base and that will be granted on space available in seniority order.

The company will only force a move on you if your post at your home base becomes redundant through a base closure or aircraft reduction, but don't get me started on that.

[syfly]

Thank you, Big_Picture.

A few more questions to add in.
1) Roster - possibility to request offdays? If so, how many in a month?
2) Conversion/Training period - will there be change of bases during this period (thereafter only relocate to permanent base after on line)? What is the percentage of salary during this time?
3) Just to clarify the staff travel benefits, is it true that:
A) firm tickets- once a year (1st-4th year, bookable within a month of departure only). Firm tickets TWICE a year from 4th year onwards.
B) standby tickets- only interline agreements. NO standby ticket from Flybe.
4) Jump seat- can it be use as FOC commuting?


Thank you in advance!

[Deano777]

syfly

1.
You can request up to 4 days off per month but obviously they will come out of your monthly day off allowance. They are given out in seniority order as far as I am aware so if two of you RDO the same day off then the more senior gets it, you get the gist. You can also freeze a duty if you have a school play to go to in the evening and you're on an early etc etc, but only one of those per month.

2.
You should be allocated your base upon job offer, there are no secrets here, no underlying tactics. You will do the type conversion in Exeter in the Flybe Training Academy and you will be put up in the hotel. Expect a week of induction, three weeks ground school and ten simulator sessions of 4 hours each. All in all from joining the company to starting line training expect approximately 7 weeks (including your days off and license issue). As for pay; we are not some ryanair type cowboy outfit, you will be paid from day one and all your expenses during training will be covered and you will not be expected to pay anything. Your line training will endeavour to be rostered from your home base but could be done from any of the bases. The company will put you up in a hotel if you are away from base.

3.
Firm tickets are only given after 4 years of service. You get 2 firm tickets for travel at the same time, so basically for you and spouse. If you have children they can go as well. As for booking, if you try and book them outside a month of travel you will get told to call back. Technically they are not firm tickets because if they were you'd be able to book them whenever you wanted and on whatever flight you wanted. You are also not guaranteed to get the seat you want so planning a holiday inside school holidays is next to impossible. You are always told to call again closer and closer to your departure date. This in effect means they are as good as a standby ticket.
As for standby tickets, you can travel on your own as many times a year on standby on the Flybe network, your friends and family can travel ten times. I think this is about right, someone else may clarify. I have never used staff travel in 7 years with the company.

4
Absolutely no jump seat commuting allowed unless the company want to position you and the plane is full.

Syfly, any more questions then feel free to ask. I hope it helps.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Absolutely no jump seat commuting allowed unless the company want to position you and the plane is full.

The jump seat policy was written vaguely on purpose. I've used the jump seat whilst on a standby ticket going on holiday before.

Unless it's changed in recent times you could use it if travelling before and after a duty.

[flyingcamel]

Pretty much as often as you like on Flybe flights, as long as you're not taking the proverbial.

[Deano777]

Yes but that's the point, you need a ticket as you are technically a passenger. You cannot just go on the jumpseat as supernumerary crew to position anywhere you like free of charge, which is what was being asked I think. If you have a standby ticket and the plane is full then you should be allowed the jumpseat. The DfT ruling on that is quite specific.

[syfly]

Thanks again Deano777 for your detailed insights!

Best of luck to everyone who applies!

[south coast]

Is Southampton a popular base and if I live 20 mins down the road, what's the likelihood of getting it?

Thanks

[Deano777]

Where you live is irrelevant. You'll be based where we need pilots, this is normally North of Manchester or across the water to Belfast. The further South you go the harder it is to get based (generally speaking), however I'm hearing there is a small requirement for Exeter and Southampton in the latest recruitment drive due to attrition at Southampton. If you end up North then there is a bid system every 6 months where you can bid to change base, seat or fleet. I'd hazard a guess that it will take about a year to 18 months to get back to a base you want but some pilots are lucky and get it within their first bid.

Good luck with your application.

[olster]

Do flybe anticipate employing DECs ? Now veteran status and think I would enjoy regional flying. No rose tinted glasses though.

Cheers / rgds

[Coffin Corner]

olster

No chance I'm afraid. With fewer bases now there won't be a need for DEC for the foreseeable future. There's a never ending supply of first officers with the required experience to upgrade as and when they are needed.

[fade to grey]

Really ?
On their website and on ,' latest pilot jobs ' they do mention uptake of DECs.

[Deano777]

It won't happen, regardless of what the website says.

[clearofconflict]

There are plenty of SFO's with lots of hours and ready for command due to the stagnation of recent years. The only possible chance of DEC recruitment would be if the flight ops team had no internal bids for the positions they need to fill. i.e. no one wanted to be a captain in GLA but they had some vacancies. Its a long shot though!

[Deano777]

That's right, there was a shortfall in the number of bids to fill the Belfast commands this bid period but I'm under the impression that has been resolved. I would imagine the only reason they have opened the application for DEC is due to expansion and incase they don't get the required bids to fill. The reality is they will get the bids. I and most others would be very surprised if we saw DECs arrive here in the short to medium future. Nobody else are really recruiting in numbers so attrition isn't that high right now. I'll stand by my original comment; it won't happen.

[Set 1013]

Fade to grey

The website does say they recruit DEC, it also says they have a policy of promoting from within! Historically they have taken a few DEC's on and I suspect that is why that it still there. At the top of the recruitment page (in red writing) it clearly states they are accepting applications for First officers, not DEC.
Like Deano777 says, I would be amazed if this happened. They are running a holding pool of about 50 (ish) SFO's who could slip into the left seat ASAP if required.

[mikehammer]

Is your normal roster pattern 5 on, 2 off? Or a more easyesque (!) 5-4, 5-3? Or something completely different in practice like ours ( where we are resisting the new corporate purple livery ).

[Deano777]

It's supposed to be 5/2/5/2/6/3 but the reality is it can be whatever rostering want it to be within the confines of the scheduling agreement.

[flyingcamel]

Basically a random roster with 1-3 days off at a time between blocks of 1-6. (Based on being 100%. 85% can get 4 day off blocks and 70% are 5 on 5 off.) You have the facility to request days off and 4 'trump days off' per year for weddings/barmitzvahs/trips to the fetish club. Expect use of CDOs which don't count towards your DO allocation but allow the company to circumvent the lates to earlies protection in the scheduling agreement. This will probably change as we get more bodies on line though.

18 months ago I was pleased with my roster and the rest I was getting, now it's nightstops galore and lots of min rest. This can be a nice airline, great crew etc but you won't be at home much if you get one of the bigger bases on the Q400 fleet.

Come with eyes wide open. This is NOT a lifestyle airline anymore as I'm sure many will attest to. That's not to say it's not worth joining though. Horses for courses and all that...:ok:

[speedrestriction]

Lord Spandex Masher They're not fussy who they promote either so never a shortage, at least short term.

Just to clarify - the command process most certainly IS pass/fail. Individuals do fail from time to time. LSM I suspect your information is out of date. Do you work for FlyBe? If not or if you left any amount of time ago I believe you will find that the company has changed a lot - your insight may not be relevant to people seeking up to date information about the company.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I left a while a go, that much is true, but I keep in touch with many people still there and I am aware of the command process at Flybe which changed before I left, it seems to garner many book worms and SOP monkeys who have no imagination or flexibility but do have a sense of entitlement after they pass the process but before they get the seat (do you still have to pass the whole thing before you get to be an SFO these days?).

Suffice to say there are some captains who I flew with as FOs who should still be FOs (even the recently demoted captain who apparently wanted to override the automatic G/A process on the 195 because he became visual after he'd pressed TOGA has been promoted, again).

[speedrestriction]

Facts rather than opinion are of more use to people seeking to join the company- so lets recap the facts

1) Command suitability is determined in accordance with candidates' ability as judged by CAA/EASA accredited TRI/TREs acting as employees of a CAA/EASA accredited TRTO.

2) This assessment IS pass/fail

3) This process overseen by and deemed suitable by the regulatory authority

4) This process currently provides a pool of suitably qualified and experienced individuals who will meet the company's needs for most if not all command vacancies for the next few seasons at least

[hobnobanyone]

The Command Development Programme was very very unevenly applied, depending on which base you were in.

Some walked straight into a PCLA. Some spent up to a year doing it, only to get told to come back in 6 months.

As Camel said: Don't expect to be at home much if you're in one of the bigger bases. It's not the lifestyle that it was when I first joined. It isn't a bad place though by any stretch of the imagination. As with everywhere, there's always going to be things that get under your skin. The CDO to avoid the Scheduling Agreement is a big one, especially if you're nightstopping all the time, in which case 2 days at home is a flattener before going back to another really early start.

But it is good fun, the crew are superb, the routes are varied and the direction that the company is moving in is both very refreshing to see, and also something that we have wanted for a long time. When the new joiners get online, I'm sure roster disruption and the regular phone calls on days off will slow down a bit too. But on balance, it isn't what I joined, but there are many worse places out there.

[olster]

Thanks for the replies, folks.

cheers

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Facts rather than opinion are of more use to people seeking to join the company- so lets recap the facts

1) Command suitability is determined in accordance with candidates' ability as judged by CAA/EASA accredited TRI/TREs acting as employees of a CAA/EASA accredited TRTO.

2) This assessment IS pass/fail

3) This process overseen by and deemed suitable by the regulatory authority

4) This process currently provides a pool of suitably qualified and experienced individuals who will meet the company's needs for most if not all command vacancies for the next few seasons at least

Yet you still have people wanting to change their minds during a go around, fact, making up their own speed profiles and generally operating in a non standard fashion, fact, FOs thinking that they are the captain just because they're PF and they've passed the command assessments, fact. If these FOs can pass the command process why don't they continue to operate that way?

Not sure about you SR but I don't believe the command process at any airline, least of all Flybe, is infallible and your facts certainly don't refute that.

Anyway the point is that Flybe promote some people who shouldn't be and, therefore, decent FOs will find it harder and more time consuming before they get a look in.

[mikehammer]

Thanks once again.
Further to the command questions, does promotion require a base change in most circumstances? It does where I am now so my question is for direct comparison. Also, as an aside, we have a daft clause in the promotion process which allows the company to sack you if you don't succeed. Hence I have not applied here!

[GusHoneybun]

A base change will be required if you bid for that base. Some people are happy to be FO's in a particular base whilst waiting for a command slot to appear, others bid widely for a command (by widely, I mean at all bases) and get the upgrade much quicker. It all comes down to personal choice.

If you fail an upgrade you will not get sacked. You go back to your old role with a cool off period before you can try again.

If you are thinking of joining to get a quick command, be warned that there is a very large number of FO's already passed the PCLA and awaiting slots. It could be a very long wait. Unless there is an expansion looming.....

[mikehammer]

Thank you. I'm not interested in a quick command, but where I am there is no possibility so I must weigh up options before moving on. Your information is invaluable.

[Leg]

There will be no external Command opportunities in the short to medium term, but who knows in the future it is possible.

SFO's will get the nod for sure, but not until the Capts made redundant return, and some will return soon.

[Holyjoe]

A student from Simtech just passed sim assessment and starts in September

[4Ohm]

Word is that the situation has changed to the point that external direct entry command is about to begin..

[Leg]

Word is that the situation has changed to the point that external direct entry command is about to begin..

Not a hope in hell of that happening :rolleyes:

[Artic Monkey]

40hm you can safely tell your source that they are talking rubbish. There's not a cats chance in hell of DEC recruitment anytime soon.

[The Moog]

As someone who left flybe just over a year ago through all the changes and now working with a new employer slightly further afield, I have had the opportunity and time to look back and reflect on my previous experience.

At flybe you will no doubt be working hard - 5, maybe 6 days a week, generally 4 sectors a day (maybe more?!)....and yep, on a dash, which perhaps isn't easy on the eye, or at times easy to fly (I'm thinking sitting at FL250 bumping through the clouds and seeing that if you were just able to climb another 2,000ft you'd be able to sit in clear smooth air)! You may be flying in and out of Belfast and Leeds (or the Channel Islands, Southampton, Aberdeen - almost anywhere on the route network) and it'll be blowing a hooley (again) and you'll be working hard -just to head back in the opposite direction to do it all again! And back to the dash itself -it unfortunately isn't the kindest of aircraft, or as reliable as everyone would like....but all of the above (including tech issues) offer learning and handling opportunities, which you won't get sitting in the cruise on a 737 or airbus for 3hr sectors, doing 4 or 5 landings a week.

You'll work with some great guys and gals at flybe, whether sitting beside you in the flight deck or working behind you looking after the cabin and yourselves. Yes, it's been suggested there are one or two people who may slip through the net/be harder work than would be preferred, but take any large population of people (600 or so pilots at flybe) and that is almost unavoidable...

...but on the the whole the people are great. You'll receive excellent training from the in-house TRTO who have a self interest in ensuring you do well - if only simply because they may be flying with you some day! In the right seat (and if it's your first flying job) you'll fly with guys and girls to your left who have a great deal of experience and, as I always believe was the case for me, you'll learn your trade from them. Yes, you'll fly with newer captains too, but they will have a great deal of experience on the aircraft, company and routes flown - and new captains bring a different experience, plus, we're all new at some point. One of the great things about flybe is you will know your colleagues and a day at work more often than not turns into a fun day out with a few take offs, landings and turn arounds...

..and when you do change seats, those same colleagues will be doing their jobs and making your transition easier. You'll get to fly with brand new guys and girls in the right seat, who'll be motivated and eager to learn and youll learn with them.

I was lucky enough to work in many of flybe's bases and each had it's own identity. I'm not sure on the situation now, but as mentioned there could be a good chance of being based up in Belfast. I was lucky to work out of there when I changed seats and what a fantastic base and place it is. The crew there will make you feel a part of the base from day 1 and are amongst the most welcoming to work with - your day will be a blast!

Looking from the outside in I'm aware that a lot of information I hold is now missing or slightly out of date. I understand as Deano states that there is a lot of night stopping for many and I don't know how hard people are working. One of the things I find most encouraging is the major shift that appears to have happened/be happening with the change of senior management. They want to make flybe a fun place to work, encouraging employees to share their ideas and thoughts and Saad even has done a 'back to the floor day' working onboard with the cabin crew - compared to the old management of not being interested in crew feedback, the usual 'the business model is working', never been seen in the bases/on the floor and so on, this change is more than a breath if fresh air - it's amazing!

The dash may not be glamorous or the aircraft you've always wanted to fly and the pay packet disappointing (especially for the new joiners) but the experience will set you up fantastically for whatever happens for you further down the line. I recognise for me now that my training and experiences have set me up in excellent steed with my new company and with working with colleagues from different backgrounds and cultures.

I hope that with the upturn in the UK economy, new uniforms for the cabin crew, expansion and recruitment the future could well be positive and bright (albeit purple) for my previous colleagues and friends and for the many new crew to join in the future.

[Iver]

Excellent post Moog!

One of my former students is interested in Flybe. Anyone know how long it takes for a new hire to bid the 175s? 3-4 years? How many 175s on order?

[Deano777]

Iver, answers are on page one. He/she can bid straight away but it'll be a good few years before they realise that bid

[WX Man]

Notwithstanding the rostering debate, did anyone reading this forum apply?

[EMB-145LR]

Yes, I applied. Not heard anything back yet. 2,800TT, 1600 Jet, 800 Turboprop, ERJ145, J31/32 and E170/190 rated.

[Sheep Worrier]

I applied as well -- nothing heard to date, but word from the inside is that whilst the office is manically busy, interviews for 'cadets' from OAA/CTC/etc have been finished, so we should start hearing something (positive or negative) shortly.

[seven3]

Applied, not rated, and nothing back yet ..