Training in the USA

[Soliciting Stu]

Good evening everyone.

As an aspiring aviator, I have obviously been researching the JAA ATPL for many months. But reading a few comments on this forum over the last few days has got me thinking about doing all of my training in the USA. From FAA PPL through my ratings to FAA ATPL, instructing to build hours, then back to Blighty to convert to JAA.

I would like to hear from people who have done it, or have researched it, who have any comment to make in fact.
I understand the difficulties in obtaining a J1 Visa, the fact that I may be spending the same amount of money in the long run, but what I am really after is making the most out of my potential aviation career, the whole experience of learning/instructing and getting the most out of my 'bucks.'
It would be my intention to eventually fly within JAA, but would my chances of employment be enhanced with both an FAA and JAA license? In a similar vein, would any employment chances be hindered by going via this particular route?

Does anyone have any experiences of living/working in America when they went down this route? Recommend it? Any financial figures for cost/earnings would be a great help?

I would be very grateful if you good people could point me in the right direction before I put my heart and soul into researching this route to an ATPL! :)

Regards,
Stuart.

[Jannik]

Hej Stuart

I have made a lot of research about that subject. I was recommended to go the other way around do ALL the JAA end trhen convert to FAA it is MUCH easier and MUCH cheaper. My plan is to start at EFT in august and enroll their Professionel pilot program which gives me ALL JAA, conversion to FAA incl instructor ratings and employment for about 18 months.

Jannik

[johnnypick]

I have just started the ATPL theory having spent the last few months getting an FAA CPL/IR(having already done the JAA PPL) . I have found that you get so much back ground knowledge doing it this way, and am now more confident of passing the ATPL's. Also if I want to go back to instruct in the States all I have to do now is the CFI course(3-4weeks), but if I stay in the UK and do the CPL here,I already have all the cross country, instrument, complex and night time needed. And the bonus is, it was all cheaper than getting a basic PPL in the UK and hour building over here.

[BritishGuy]

Just a note to say that I agree with the aboue. I found myself in the same situation.

[englishal]

I've researched this quite a bit. At the end of the day, going to the US and doing an ATP, then converting to JAR will cost roughly the same as doing a JAR frozen ATPL in the UK (or wherever), but you get several advantages with going the FAA route.

-For a start you come back with at least 1500 hrs TT, which will make your employment chances better.

-You will also have two completely seperate licences, so in the unfortunate event that you lose one of them, say the JAR for failing the Class 1 medical, then you will still be left with the FAA ATP, and the lower medical standards.

-The cost is offset by you being paid to instruct for around 18 months. If you go to one of the institutions in the UK, you will essentially be un-paid for a year. An instructor in the US can expect to get $20 per hour or more. One instructor I know stated that his earnings were between $800 and $2000 for a fortnight, depending on weather etc., which is certainly enough to get by on.

-With the FAA, your instrument flight time can start much earlier, as the IR will probably be the first thing you get after the PPL. And once you get your CFI rating, probably the next thing you'll get is the CFII, making you a very competent instrument pilot by the time you return home.

-You also get to live somewhere new for a couple of years, which is a good experience in itself.

As far as costs go you're looking at around $5000 for the PPL, $4000 for the IR, $11,000 for the commercial and CFI ratings, so after spending around $20,000 (£12,000 - £15,000) you can start earning as an instructor.

Good luck !

EA

[Wibbly P]

FAA CPL/IR <500 hours:
+
JAR Class 1 Medical
Approved JAR Theory Course
All14 JAR ATPL exams
RT Practical
Discretionary training to pass CPL Skills test
Full 55 hour IR
=
JAR-FCL CPL/IR

[buttline]

www.nmc.edu - North Western Michigan University do a JAA ATPL and they are well thought of.

You can do the JAA Modular route with Orlando Flight Training in Kissimmee - I believe a C152 costs $58 per hour. Living costs are very cheap in this area too (I'm there now). The instructors are mostly Brits who've moved here anyway. I think they are tied up with Cabair in the UK for onward training. (I'm a heli pilot so not certain).

Getting a J1 is just paperwork. There's nothing difficult about it at all. You'll get 2 years so you can potentially work as a FS after you finish your course (you can probably work in your FAA requirements into your JAA flight hours as we do).

As I understand it, Oxford now sends it's students to Texas for the first 80 hours or so - presumably to save costs and weather problems.

The only disadvantage of the U.S. I've found is that the comms is much more lax than the UK so you don't get to practise formal comms as much but it's pretty similar. Don't believe people who say the weather is too nice so you won't be experienced in that area. Florida gets enourmous convective heating over the summer so you'll have to deal with flying in very unstable air and get good at reading clouds to avoid the bad ones.

A lot of the schools that used to offer JAA courses have stopped (don't know why but they include Flight Safety and Pan Am).

It's easier to convert from the JAA to the FAA than the other way around. The FAA theory is a doddle after the JAA - just learn the question bank.

The cheapest route to a JAA ATPL I can see is to do a distance learning course for the theory and do the flying in the U.S. with a JAA approved school.

There is a list of JAR approved schools at www.caa.org - Safety Reg Group.

Barry

[englishal]

One other point, if you have the FAA ATP then you are excempt from a formal JAR IR course, so:-

FAA ATP +

JAR class 1 medical +
ATPL exams +
RT +
Discretionary training to pass IR Skills test+
JAR IR skills test pass=

JAR ATPL.

Cheers
EA

[PPRuNe Towers]

One significant point against the route you're suggesting Al is entirely psychological.

After a couple of years living, learning and instructing in the States it will take an extremely disciplined and determined personality to return with the finance and will to face to whole gamut of UK exams.

Yes, people have done it and are presently doing it but it is by no means the easy or preferable option and many fall by the wayside. Whether you call it motivation or simply the carrot and the stick approach - many personality types are far more suited to doing the hard, expensive and boring grind first with the following American sojourn as their first pleasurable target.

Rob

[Julian]

I would have thought that not having paid as much for the ATPL and also due to the fact they had been working as an FI on a decent salary they would have the cash the pay for the exams.

Exams are exams, if someone cant be bothered to sit down and take them then they aren't going to get an ATPL and if someone cant be bothered then maybe they should not be sat at the pointy end anyway.

Personally I would rather go the FAA>JAA route, same cost, two licences, more employable at the end of the day.

[Soliciting Stu]

I would just like to say 'Thank you' for the responses thus far!
Very interesting and informative.

From the information I have recieved both here and privately, I feel that the FAA ATP route is seriously worth considering. Who wouldn't pass up the opportunity to work in the US while building hours towards their goal?

Again, many thanks for the informative replies!

Regards
Stuart

[PPRuNe Towers]

Julian,

Absolutely admirable logic and motivation - when applied to yourself.

You have to remember we've been receiving mail on the subject for over 7 years now and one very persistant theme is the FAA comm/ cert holder looking for any shortcut to getting a licence usable in Europe and unable to face or finance the exams. They tend to be bridges burnt and desperate mail as opposed to your calm and determined approach.

It is a significant thing for all to consider despite the generous instructor's pay you mention.

rob

[Julian]

Mr Towers,

Agreed there are probably students out there who dont want to face the JAA ATPL exams but if they want to work in Europe I would suspect (not having gone that far yet and you can probably enlighten me on this), that the job market in the EU for a pure FAA licence holder is a bit restrictive - they are going to have to break out the books and get stuck in at some point. Either that or somehow get a green card and work in the US.

In this day and age you don't really want to go around burning your bridges, any extra you can include on your CV is a bonus.

Whatever route students decide to take, good luck to 'em!

[Alex Whittingham]

Al, you need more than a bare FAA ATP to be exempt from the IR approved training, you need at least 500 hours multi-pilot time and need to do your skills test on the multi-pilot aircraft you are type rated on. i.e. if you have 500+ hours on the B737 and do the skills test on the 737 you are exempt the 50 hour course, if you do it on a Seneca or Duchess you are not.

[onehunga]

I think you guys are overlooking one minor (major) point. Just cos you have gotten your FAA ATP etc doesnt mean that you are going to walk into a FI job overnight and get the hallowed 1500 hours TT as mentioned above. I was out post Sept 11 in Florida and the schools were dead. Loads of CV's being faxed in on a daily basis from newly qualified students with all of the quals you would expect plus the usual "life experiences" outside of flying. Very little work for FI's at all and most were trying to hitch rides with us hour builders to try and bludge some hours for their log books.

Not sure how much things have picked up at all over there but don't assume that an FI position will come up just cos you have paid school big bickies to do their ab initio program (me). Also remember that 1500 hours in SE is not as goog as a shed load of multi time. The trick is to find the school that allows you to fly multi as FI or safety pilot to build those hallowed hours.

Good luck.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Rubbish.

Much better off doing a JAA Modular and JAA ATPL exam course in the UK for around £35,000 all in.

If you want you can hours build post PPL in the US as it will save you a grand or so.

Other than that. Go to a nice little groundschool and fly from a nice medium sized LOCAL(ish) school for the PPL CPL and IR in the same local area/aircraft with the same instructor if possible.

THAT is the way to get a 1st time IRT pass and get good ATPL exams. The foundation to your first career step. Allied to the contacts you can make along the way...

Spoke as someone who did odds and ends of 'modular' training (self improver as it was known in the good old days!) all over the country with different schools and went on to be an 'Integrated' instructor teaching cadets and people spending a Grand a day.

Good luck,

WWW

ps Don't rush - AL on strike this week and still a sea of ex-airline pilots out there looking for work or to move. :(

[Britmil]

I'm a Brit currently working as a CFI out of Tucson International.
I fortunately have a green card but if anyone would like to know more info about working here as a flight instructor, feel free to e-mail me at [email protected].

Rob L

:cool:

[Julian]

Hi Onehunga,

The school I use to hire aircraft had been hit by 9/11 but the opposite way round.

They had loads of students and were hiring instructors but they had been hit heavily in the hire only side of their business - the school owner told me it had dropped by 40% !!!!

I also visited the school I first learnt with and they had full courses, they dont do hire only so I could not ask them about that.

You are spot with your comment about multi-time. Chatting to the FIs there a lot wished they had got their MEI/MEII out of the way as soon as they could to get the hours in. A lot have more than 1500TT but not the multi time, one guy had 2600 but not the ME requirements to go for the majors.

Julian.