Proposed Bomber Command Memorial in Lincoln

[HTB]

On the BBC news site today, planning approval has been granted to build a memorial to airmen based at the county's bomber stations. Bravo.:D

BBC News - Bomber Command centre plans approved for Lincoln (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-28015224)

also a link to another proposal, this one for a Spitfire memorial in Southampton (but they need a lot of dosh):

BBC News - £3m needed for new Southampton Spitfire memorial statue (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-28022939)

Mister B

[Lima Juliet]

Like the Spitfire statue but the Bomber Command Memorial looks pants :yuk:

Apparently it's supposed to resemble a crouching Lancaster - what utter crud. Too much "Emperor's New Clothes" modern art rubbish for my liking. Why can't we have a statue of a Lanc or something more classy like the Bomber Command Memorial in London?

LJ

[VX275]

I don't know about a crouching Lancaster but my first thoughts on seeing that picture was it looked more like a Whitley.

[500N]

I think the concept of the wings are good but the rest make it look too modern when it is commemorating something from mid last century.

I like the Spitfire memorial. Maybe need to accentuate the White Cliffs of Dover below.

[Al R]

RAF Flamborough Head may have been a more profound location. Maybe not obvious enough. I'm glad to see it though, Lincoln deserves to have its association and support recognised.

[Wensleydale]

"Flamborough Head may have been a more profound location"

Perhaps a site in East Yorkshire would not be such a good idea for a memorial commemorating the Bomber Bases of Lincolnshire?

[Al R]

You have a good point! :ok:

In my meagre defence, I was thinking about a more general, non location specific memorial.

[Melchett01]

I applaud the sentiment in both cases, and the Spitfire memorial had the potential to be stunning. The Bomber Command one on the other hand! If I were being charitable I'd say it reminds me a little of the American Hangar at Duxford. If I'm being honest, the RAC call centre / HQ building somewhere around J5 or 6 of the M6 just outside Birmingham was the first thing that sprang to mind rather than any postmodern interpretation of a Lancaster.

[Chugalug2]

You wait over 65 years for a Bomber Command Memorial and then they turn up in convoy like London buses! To be honest though, this is a Bomber Command Centre (shades of Bicester, Al?). Its job presumably is to house a permanent exhibition of items and information relative to the Bombing Campaign. In which case I hope that it is not restricted merely to Lancasters, or Lincolnshire, or both.

The campaign was bed-rocked on BFTS's and SFTS's (usually overseas), OTU's, HCU's, and finally the operational Squadrons (be they in Lincs, Yorks, or elsewhere). Of course, aircraft and munition factories, fuel depots, the Merchant Navy that suffered so greatly in supplying them, and many many others, were essential components as well.

It is that colossal organisation and allocation of scarce strategic resources that should be emphasised, as well as the sacrifice of those who volunteered for this very dangerous work, whether they happened to end up based in Lincolnshire or not, otherwise it is merely an exercise in parochialism. That is why I prefer Al's suggestion of Flamborough Head for such a centre (having failed with Bicester). Together with Beachy Head it was a shared coasting out point for BC, wherever based.

As to the roofline, I agree that it is more reminiscent of the Whitley, as already stated. If they are not structurally required, I would rather see the 'tail fins' removed.

Oh, I like the Spitfire one a lot!

[Wensleydale]

This is the "Lincolnshire Bomber Command Memorial" and is dedicated to those who flew from Lincolnshire within Bomber Command....it is only those lost flying from Lincolnshire airbases who will be commemorated. There are a few open ended questions to which I do not know the answer -


Is this just Lincolnshire based squadrons?


Will it include losses from Squadrons not usually based in Lincolnshire but detached here?


Will it include losses from those squadrons based in Lincolnshire but aircraft departing from a base outside Lincolnshire?




In any event, the provision of the list of names will be most difficult depending upon which "rule" is used for Lincolnshire aircrew. Some may well be missed and others added in error. It is fortunate that the names are not going to be listed on the spire as omissions etc would be very difficult to correct once in place. I heard that the names will be based upon those in the book of remembrance in Lincoln Cathedral which will indeed be a good start point for accuracy.

[Chugalug2]

Wensleydale;-
This is the "Lincolnshire Bomber Command Memorial" and is dedicated to those who flew from Lincolnshire within Bomber Command....it is only those lost flying from Lincolnshire airbases who will be commemorated.
Then with respect I find that rather sad and, as I said previously, parochial. There never was a Lincolnshire Bomber Command, BC itself straddled the country and, if you include its OTUs not just in the east. Of course it could be dedicated merely to the Groups with Squadrons based within the county, but what of the others? It seems so needlessly divisive.

If another BC Centre was established in York, say, that would still leave others in the Campaign unrepresented, and the real story of the campaign as a whole untold, while creating a needless duplication of effort. No doubt this will get local support and local approval, but I would urge those involved to reconsider. Far better for a National Bomber Command Centre to be established, albeit in Lincolnshire. The sacrifice was prodigious but was not for any one county in particular but for the country as a whole. It should be remembered as such.

[Wensleydale]

It is what it is - aviation heritage is big in Lincolnshire at the moment and the local councils have embraced it. There are plans for a Bomber Command museum at Scampton.

[mikip]

I can't help wondering if the designer of the bomber command memorial has ever actually seen a Lancaster, or if they have they definitely need a new pair of glasses

[HTB]

500N


Nige


This Spitfire memorial is near Southampton, Eastleigh Aerodrome (Southampton Airport now) was were the Spitfire was developed. No white cliffs to speak of - were you thinking of the BoB memorial a couple of miles east of Folkestone.


Did SAMXV ever pay up his gambling debt?


Mister B

[Chugalug2]

Wensleydale:-
aviation heritage is big in Lincolnshire at the moment and the local councils have embraced it. and there was I thinking it was about Remembrance, when all the time it was about Aviation Heritage, and in particular Lincolnshire Bombing Offensive Heritage at that!

As you so rightly predict there will be endless squabbles about who is in and who is out, when it could have simply included the entire alleged 55,573. Alleged, because that is almost certainly wrong, but at least tries to account for all BC losses rather than those who were based inside or outside a County boundary at time of death...

I see they are presently laying claim to 25,611. Oh, but wait, that includes Lincolnshire and adjacent airfields:-

Lincolnshire Bomber Command Memorial and Interpretation Centre (http://www.lincsbombercommandmemorial.com/)

A touch of Lincolnshire Poaching?

[Tankertrashnav]

I think people are being a bit picky about this. We already have a splendid Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park which commemorates all of those who died in Bomber Command, wherever they flew from. If Lincolnshire wants to have one specifically for that county, I have no problem with that. I also quite like the design - it's obviously not meant to look like a Lanc - just suggest one, which I think it does. But then, as I was always lousy on aircraft recognition I'm probably easily pleased!

[Lancman]

That Lancaster memorial is hideous, something featuring the twin oval fins and rudders would be far better.

[Chugalug2]

TTN, as a 'picky' I think it is such a shame that this is an opportunity lost. Bomber Command has had to wait nearly 70 years to come in out of the cold, principally because of all the propaganda launched at it from within and without.

It took a pop-star to shame us into allowing them a proper memorial. It will take a presentation of the facts to unravel all those decades of misinformation. That could best be done by a National Bomber Command Museum/ Centre/ whatever. Bicester being outside the hallowed ground of the actual operational bases and being in almost perfect wartime condition promised to do just that. It wasn't to be.

Now it seems it never will be because the only one to be available won't tell the story of WW2 Bomber Command but instead will celebrate its presence in Lincolnshire. Such a shame...

[caped crusader]

Perhaps I could give a different perspective to show that it is not about aviation heritage but about remembrance and respect for those who fought and died for our freedom.

The driving force behind the memorial is the Lord Lieutenant for Lincolnshire who delayed the launch of the appeal until after the memorial in London had been unveiled. He did not want to detract from the national memorial in London especially when fundraising for that memorial was a priority.

In November 1949 the Rolls of Honour for 1 Group and 5 Group were presented to Lincoln Cathedral for safe keeping. Similar Rolls of Honour were also presented to York Minster & Ely Cathedral.

Both 1 & 5 Group had airfields outside of the County, hence the reference to adjacent airfields. Not poaching but including. The Rolls of Honour include the names of Australians, Canadians, Indians, Poles, New Zealanders and Americans who flew with the RCAF when America was neutral, as well as aircrew from other nations such as present day Serbia.

A third Roll of Honour was presented to the Cathedral at a later date which covers all the OTUs, which addresses some of Chugalug2's comments. Research so far shows that this RoH includes aircrew who lost their lives from airfields as far afield as Elgin, Forres, Kinliss, Milltown and Leuchars as well as the likes of Wellesbourne. At the moment I know of no memorial dedicated to those aircrew who lost their lives in training, many of whom were instructors who had already completed a tour of duty.

The total names listed in the 3 RoHs is 25,611.

Yes, there is a challenge to ensure that all the names are properly accounted for which is why the Trustees for the Project are recruiting a team of researchers. Perhaps Wenslydale might be able to help?

The memorial will be unveiled first and then the second phase will begin, the interpretation centre. This will tell the story of Bomber Command and the men who flew in BC. In particular it will be a place where the youth of our nation can go to learn the truth. Yes, the Memorial in London, well overdue, pays tribute to the lost but there is nothing in place to fully tell the story. Who decided the strategy and who betrayed the aircrew at the end of the war needs to be told properly.

I believe that eventually the Trustees hope to list the names of all the 55,573 who died. So what started off as a memorial for those who flew with 1 & 5 Group and all the OTUs & HCUs will eventually pay tribute to BC.

Yes, the design is not to everyone's taste but there were disagreements among the committee responsible for the London Memorial.

I for one salute the noble efforts of the folk down in Lincolnshire. Hope my grandchildren get to visit it and learn the true facts and get a chance to pay their respects to great generation.

[Chugalug2]

caped crusader, many thanks for that most informative post. I suspect that there is a mountain of bureaucracy behind the following:-
I believe that eventually the Trustees hope to list the names of all the 55,573 who died. So what started off as a memorial for those who flew with 1 & 5 Group and all the OTUs & HCUs will eventually pay tribute to BC. for I can see no logical reason why it couldn't simply start off that way in the first place. If Lincolnshire is up for it, are others not? If this is really a case of the ball being punted around by local politicians, jealous of their own claims to the appalling casualty lists, then shame on them is all I can say.

Bomber Command veterans had to suffer the scheming and betrayal of such people even as they risked life and limb on a nightly basis. Is it not time that their story was told in the context of the campaign in which they all served, no matter where they were stationed? Is it not time for the politics to stop?

[Gemini Twin]

There has never been anything built that doesn't generate a few wines from
observers with a key board or handy pen!
This is a Lincolnshire tribute to the Bomber Boys who served at Bomber Command bases in Lincolnshire. That's all, no need to object that there was no Lincolnshire Bomber Command, no need to object that it should be at this place or that, if you would like to have one somewhere else get off your chair and do what the people in Lincolnshire have been doing for the last few years.
In my mind this is an fantastic gesture and it will be a fitting tribute to thousands of young men to whom I will be forever grateful.
Well done and a big thank you to all concerned.

[Chugalug2]

GT, I'm not objecting to the Bomber Command Centre being in Lincoln, for it was right at the centre of the campaign, be it in Yorkshire, Cambridgeshire, East Midlands, wherever. I too congratulate Lincolnshire on its initiative to found this centre. My only plea is that it tells the story of the campaign in its entirety, not restricting it artificially to activity within its own boundaries 'and adjacent airfields'.

Why be so restrictive? This is the one chance we will have (it is ridiculous to suggest that anyone who feels like it should build their own BC Centres, as though they be a chain of supermarkets). If this site doesn't try to tell the story of the whole campaign, dotting the i's and crossing the t's as caped crusader alluded to, then it will not happen. To simply tell the Lincolnshire story will mean that it is not a Bomber Command Centre at all, but a 1 & 5 Group one. Is that what you want? Is that what it should be called?

Let us honour all 55,573 and tell future generations why they died, and what they died for. Let us tell them of the Bombing Campaign of WW2 in full.

[Lima Juliet]

Well looking at this...

http://www.lincsbombercommandmemorial.com/files/P491---Elevation-Rev-C.jpg

...I think the designer has had one too many ales in the Wig & Mitre!

LJ

[Al R]

Ah, Bicester.

I applaud Lincoln for getting off its backside and doing something about it, but I do wonder at its introspective approach. Capel Le Ferne isn't a memorial to Kent's fighter pilots, but to all of ours. The geography doesn't matter but in fairness, Lincs is the one which made it happen - it pays the piper, it calls the tune (alas?). Maybe it was up to everywhere else to do what Lincy did? Maybe it could have been more collaberative, maybe it could have been pointed out earlier - such nitpicking might be seen as sour grapes so enough of that from me.

George Galloway made a fabulous speech the other night, arguing against Scottish independence. He referred to it mattering not one jot about where pilots spinning high above Kent came from, Suffolk or Sutherland, but that they came from everywhere on this 'little rock'. He makes me smile.. I can imagine him speaking like this to his foamed up reflection every morning though, scary. Worth a few minutes of your time though..

https://audioboo.fm/boos/2281076-george-galloway-argues-independence-is-the-greatest-threat-to-edinburgh

I think we are becoming encouraged to think more and more local. Local authorities are gaining more control as central government farms out responsibility. They need to justify it, I get so much tat from my local council, it isn't true. It's the particular arc of the political circle we're currently in I guess. Rutland has a wicker Spitfire on the Oakham bypass; not particularly splendid or grand, but it is to remind us of RAF sacrifice fullstop, not just local RAF sacrifice.

[caped crusader]

"Let us honour all 55,573 and tell future generations why they died, and what they died for. Let us tell them of the Bombing Campaign of WW2 in full."

Chug, sorry if I did not explain properly in my post that the interpretation centre will tell the full story of the Bombing Campaign in WW2.

"If this is really a case of the ball being punted around by local politicians, jealous of their own claims to the appalling casualty lists, then shame on them is all I can."

No politics involved. The Lord Lieutenant is not a politician but Her Majesty's representative in the County. The Trustees include the present VCDS, a former CO of 9 squadron.

[1.3VStall]

Caped Crusader - IX(B) Sqn please!

[caped crusader]

Apologies.

[Chugalug2]

caped crusader, thank you for the update and it is for me to apologise for the misunderstanding re the interpretation centre rather than you. So the full story (especially the politics within and without the RAF High Command) will be told there, but the separate Memorial will be dedicated only to those listed in the Scrolls of Honour deposited at Lincoln Cathedral? If that is so then again I ask, why stop there? The Scrolls at York, Ely, and Lincoln together with whatever small memorials are in those places were what was deemed appropriate in 1949 when a National BC Memorial was a complete no no (because of the politics).

Are we to continue in such an introspective way? (Good word and excellent post Al R, as always!). Those who propound localism should be careful what they wish for, lest it drills deeper than even they would want. I'm sure that the Lord Lieutenant of Lincolnshire is above such mean thinking, as are the ones of Yorkshire, Cambridgeshire, etc, so why not all get together and make both the Interpretation Centre and the Memorial a truly combined National Tribute to Bomber Command? It is the only one we will ever get, I'm sure. That carries a heavy responsibility to get it right!

[thegypsy]

My father was one of the 55,573 killed flying from RAF Bourn Cambs and I have contributed to the Bomber Memorial in Green Park and personally think that is enough, although there is a plaque being unveiled at Bourn on Sunday 24th August which I have also contributed to commemorating all those based there during WW11.

Lancaster flypast at 2.45pm weather permitting see Home - RAFBournmemorial (http://www.rafbournmemorial.co.uk) for details.

[Trim Stab]

George Galloway made a fabulous speech the other night, arguing against Scottish independence. He referred to it mattering not one jot about where pilots spinning high above Kent came from, Suffolk or Sutherland, but that they came from everywhere on this 'little rock'. He makes me smile.. I can imagine him speaking like this to his foamed up reflection every morning though, scary. Worth a few minutes of your time though..

George Galloway deserves more credit than he gets. He vociferously disbelieved the arguments for GW2 and publicly stated so at the time - unlike all the other lily-livered MPs (now cabinet ministers) who now claim that they only voted for the attack on the basis of the "intelligence reports". They obviously have very poor judgement compared to Galloway.

George Galloway has also been vociferously condemning Israel recently and I agree with his opinions on that conflict too. As the late Robin Cook argued, we will never have peace in the Middle East until the Palestinians have statehood.

GG was a fool to go on Big Brother though - he must have needed the money at the time!

[A2QFI]

The memorial's proposed aircraft looks like one of the Northrop flying wings - not a good look IMO

[Tankertrashnav]

There are threads about Israel/Gaza. Thread drift is one thing, but could we keep this vaguely to do with the Bomber Command memorial please.