Military Parachuting Question

[Wander00]

Was driving down past WotG last Wednesday (18th) and saw small cargo plane (Skyvan?) dropping 6 or 8 parachutists on what looked like military parachutes (round, khaki coloured) from about 800ft, so looked like Para training rather than sport parachuting, but surprised by small aircraft and consequently small number of parachutists - is this how parachute training is done now. Is aircraft military or civilian operated?

[Top Bunk Tester]

Civvy operated and leased to MoD as a more cost effective way to deliver basic para training. Balloon was retired many years ago and first jumps are now done on the Skyvan and later ones on the C-130J. The canopy is the 'fairly new' static line Low level Parachute (LLP).

[Wander00]

TBT - Many thanks - W

[orgASMic]

My course (May 99) did our first jump from the Skyvan then the other 7 from C-130s. I seem to remember the load being 2 PJIs and 2 sticks of 5 or 6 troops. I also remember the green skid marks on the underside of the top half of the split ramp from collisions with para helmets due to over-exuberent exits. The beast itself I remember as a like being in a plywood Transit van with wings.

The advantages were much cheaper operating costs and being able to remount from WOTG rather than trucking back and for to Brize for each lift.

I subsequently jumped from the Skyvan on exercise a few times (including Norway) when C-130s were not available or not justifiable. For a time, IIRC, the Skyvan went out of use and the whole of the basic military course was done from the C-130, but then they got busy again and the Skyvan reappeared.

I was trained on LLP in 1999. I think it had been in use for just a year or 2 before that. Certainly, the bloke I replaced (who arrived 2 years or so before me) had trained on PX Mk4 and had then converted to LLP.

[VX275]

IIRC the Skyvan they use for this task (G-PIGY) was one of the last Argentinian fixed wing movements out of Port Stanley in 1982?

[goudie]

Balloon was retired many years agoMy brother-in-law who did his para training at WotG reckoned the balloon jump was the worst one.

I used to glide there and the balloon winch operators would earn a bit of extra cash at w/e's launching us. Naturally they were far better than we amateurs

[ExAscoteer]

Balloon was retired many years ago and first jumps are now done on the Skyvan and later ones on the C-130J.

The last Balloon unit was at Hullavington and shut down in late 1993.

[Davef68]

Having been in a smart white and blue paint finish for many years, G_PIGY has taken on a much more military green in recent months.


Air-Britain : Shorts Skyvan 3 Variant 100 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/popup.php?q=1453937)

However, I don't think it's an ex-Argentine aircraft - Google reveals their Skyvans has c/ns of 1887, 1888, 1889, 1890 and 1891. G-PIGY is c/n 1943, and it's previous history is a little vague, but is believed to be ex-Mauritanian AF

However, Hunting's other Skyvan, G-BVXW, was an ex-Argentine Navy aircraft

[TEEEJ]

I agree, Dave.

G-PIGY was involved in an accident during 2003 and the investigation confirms that the aircraft was ex-Mauritanian Air Force.

Landing gear history The aircraft manufacturer stated that the aircraft was originally delivered, to the Mauritanian air force in November 1975, with landing gear levers having different serial numbers to those currently fitted.

The aircraft was imported into the United Kingdom from Luxembourg in 1995

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_023412.pdf

The mix-up appears to have come from an Argentine website and the registration mix-up is further quoted in Wiki.

PA-51 Short Skyvan cn. SH-1888 ex G-14-60. dlv. 02Jun71. Stored in Morón, sold as LX-JUL

Short SC.7 Skyvan en Malvinas [MegaPost] - Taringa! (http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/5477547/Short-SC-7-Skyvan-en-Malvinas-MegaPost.html)

Argentine Coast Guard, Bought five in 1971 (PA-50/PA-54, UK G-14-59/G-14-63) Two lost in 1982 in Falklands War (PA-50 & PA-54). Rest retired in 1995 [LX-JUL, LX-DEF, LX-GHI] and replaced with 5 CASA C-212 Aviocar.[5]

Short SC.7 Skyvan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_SC.7_Skyvan)

LX-JUL was not an ex-Argentine Coast Guard example but ex-Mauritanian Air Force serial 5T-MAM. 5T-MAM was sold and re-registered LX-JUL and eventually became G-PIGY. The correct registration for the Argentine Skyvan should have been LX-ABC and not LX-JUL.

Photos: Short SC-7 Skyvan Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Short-SC-7-Skyvan/0316402/L)

5T-MAM Mauritanian Air Force

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chrischenn76/6488816497/

Manufacturer: Short
Model: SC-7 Skyvan Search all Short SC-7 Skyvan
Year built: 1975
Construction Number (C/N): SH.1943
Aircraft Type: Fixed wing multi engine
Number of Seats: N/A
Number of Engines: 2
Engine Type: Turbo-prop
Engine Manufacturer and Model: Garrett AiResearch TPE331-2-201A
Also Registered As: LX-JUL To UK civil register
Aircraft

Registration Number: 5T-MAM
Current Status: Withdrawn from service

Short production list (http://www.airport-data.com/manuf/Short.html)

The following website has the correct identities of the three Argentine Coast Guard Skyvans that survived the conflict in the Falklands. These were later sold on the civilian market.

* = b l o g spot

PA-51, LX-ABC, construction number SH1888

http://loudandclearisnotenought.********.co.uk/2011/02/pa-51-shorts-sc-7-skyvan-3m-400-cn.html

LX-ABC CAE Aviation 16.06.95 N80GB GB Airlink

PA-52, LX-DEF, construction number SH1889

http://loudandclearisnotenought.********.co.uk/2011/02/pa-52-shorts-sc-7-skyvan-cn-sh1889.html

PA-53, LX-GHI, construction number SH1890

http://loudandclearisnotenought.********.co.uk/2011/02/pa-53-shorts-sc-7-skyvan-3m-400-cn.html

[BEagle]

That wretched little howling pig is frequently to be seen, but more noticeably heard, flying into Brize these days.....:(

[dragartist]

Must have entered service at WOTG in around 1994/5.
Unlike VX 275 to be wrong.
I like the comment about the green skid marks. I thought the paras had been eating grass.
It always appeared odd that we could tailgate LLP from the Skyvan but not the Herc. I know certification of some of the para kit from the Civilian Skyvan proved administratively complex and did not sit well with the RTSA. (All pre MAA) How we got away with it for trials I know not. Was the A/C operated under 2 Gp rules or CAA/BPA? A bit like who knows? Who cares? Tuc would have a mare over this. I know I used to.
Famous bit of film somewhere on Youtube of a 360 SLS hang up and HUPRA. How do the Civy para schools deal with a hang up?
Just goes to show how useful these aircraft have been that they are still filling a gap all these years on. Other options have been studied to death over the years.

[MOSTAFA]

Beag's it sounds like you just might not like them but they were great fun - SL at Shobden till you run out of parachutes and I've lost count how many times we used them at Keevil and South Cerney for Tp Trg.

None of the usual faffing around - get in -12k - jump out, all day long, brilliant

[chevvron]

The Skyvans operated (under 'Ascot' callsigns) from Farnborough for a short period before the paras were moved to Colchester (from Aldershot). They were based at Oxford.
Experimental Flying Wing had already moved out and there were few civvy movements plus the MRF Hercules, so they used to operate from just outside the tower, taking off on runway 25 (now 24) and landing on either 36 or 29, (wind direction never bothered them) until we started getting noise complaints. Actually it was probably when they landed on 29 when the complaints happened as there is only the Army golf course on approach to 36, whereas 29 had housing estates on final approach.

[strake]

How do the Civy para schools deal with a hang up?

I have the dubious honour of about 2500 take-offs in a Skyvan, significantly less landings and a dispatch list of approximately 4000 static line students.

The (long) answer to your question is that in the Skyvan we operated for sports parachuting there were two dispatchers - primary and secondary. The load was between 12 and 16 students with 2 exits per pass. As the run in commenced, the primary stood the two students up, checked their static line, main and reserve and passed the first student to the secondary who placed their hand on the top of the tailgate frame with the students head looking in to the aircraft. On the command 'Go' from the secondary, the student performed a 180 degree turn and exited in the sports parachutist position. The primary then retrieved the bags. In the event of a hang-up, the trained procedure was that the student was supposed to look up, realise what had happened and place their hands behind their head - ie away from the reserve handle. Having been shown the knife that was to cut their static line, they would nod and as they fell away, would deploy their reserve. No, we didn't believe that would work either. So, the alternative was that secondary was to 'Slide down the static line into a position behind the student with the supplied knife, locate the students reserve handle, cut the line, deploy the reserve and then deploy his own canopy'. Fortunately, there is no record of either of those highly unlikely scenarios having to be carried out although we came close to disaster a couple of times -but not with hang-ups.

[Davef68]

Must have entered service at WOTG in around 1994/5.
Unlike VX 275 to be wrong.



He may be thinking of G-BVXW - they had near identical paint schemes, and both were usedfor a while in the same role.

[Heathrow Harry]

Don't knock it - did sterling service and they also sold a lot overseas ( which is more than we did with most UK aeroplanes)

Fast - no

pretty - are you joking?

but certainly effective

[parabellum]

That wretched little howling pig


Oh dear!!


The correct alternative names for the lovely SC7 are:


"The whispering Nissen Hut" and "Melody in Metal"

[Dengue_Dude]

Nope, without the word 'pig' in it, nothing else does it justice - should have been designed by the Russians . . .

[strake]

should have been designed by the Russians

What, ugly like an SU-35? :=

Ours was simply called 'The Flying Shed' but I suppose you could add Pig in there somewhere...

[VX275]

Apologies for getting the origins wrong for G-PIGY, (Dragartist won't believe this) but I'm not a spotter.

Strake mentions hang-ups and this reminds me of the story of the first HUPRA test from the Skyvan.
Being a responsible trials organisation Boscombe Down use a dummy to test HUPRA rather than a PJI. The HUPRA dummy is an earlier model Crash Test dummy and wears all the appropriate equipment its just that the mouth of the parachute bag is tied together with a cord that is far stronger than usual.
Anyway, for the trial the dummy is despatched along with all the other static lines and bags of a full stick. These are then towed around the sky whilst the HUPRA dummy is filmed from the Harvard. The HUPRA is connected and once over the DZ the anchor cable is cut and dummy lands under a functioning HUPRA canopy. That's the idea anyway, the trouble with the Skyvan trial was the anchor cable, which is less than half the diameter of that used on a Hercules, and so when the dummy left the Skyvan the shock of the hang-up snapped the anchor cable and the dummy missed the DZ.:mad:
Later around the coffee bar the Heavy Drop trials officer who had recently been dropping the Heavy Stressed Platform was talking to the designers from Irvins, and he said "they want to use Ply Tear Webbing like the HSP does to absorb the shock". The result was the SLES which is still used on the Skyvan and its slim anchor cable.
I wish I'd filed for a patent before opening my mouth. :{

[dragartist]

VX, Dai had a picture of me giving the dummy the kiss of life after a 360 malfunction during a trial. (no the mal had not been induced) That was the first time I noticed I had become folicly challenged!


Certainly recall the SLES. I understood the rationale to be to protect the anchor cable attachment at the bulkhead not the cable itself. SLES was a pain in the bum to the squippers and the EA. we were often on the end of F760s when the device had operated or partially operated. the thing was that was how it was supposed to work. The device was not faulty at all. It worked as advertised. I don't know how many times I turned down proposals to increase the strength of the primary tie.


Drag

[Sam Rutherford]

G-PIGY is for sale - anyone in for shared ownership? :-)

[Wander00]

I must ask youngest W - he works for a surveying firm in WoG, so can probably describe what the noise of the Skyvan is like

[Herod]

Nope, without the word 'pig' in it, nothing else does it justice

Nope. There's only one "Pig". The Valetta. The Super-Pig, the Varsity, was a fine aircraft. Go on, say what you think, but I liked it.

[condor17]

In BEA , 'twas the Shorts Skyliner , replacing the Heron , replacing the Rapide . All replaced by Loganair with a Trislander , now all 'Twotterised with new -400s .

rgds condor .

[gijoe]

The LLP was ‘new’ in 1995. Basic Para Course was done out the back of PIGY on PX4s then out the side of a C130 for the rest. Conversion onto LLP was last jump.

Out the back of PIGY was like going down a waterslide at a theme park.

[dragartist]

The LLP was ‘new’ in 1995. Basic Para Course was done out the back of PIGY on PX4s then out the side of a C130 for the rest. Conversion onto LLP was last jump.

Out the back of PIGY was like going down a waterslide at a theme park.

PX4 had disappeared (almost) by 2001.
In 1999 we were using LLP from the Skyvan. Along with the GQ 360 Low Level Static Line Square.
I say almost because some were retained for the Dakota for a good number of years. They were modified with different length static lines specifically for the Dakota. Good job VX275 had retained an “illegal” copy of the Dak parachuting AP. Some time later, probably 2010. Trials were completed with LLP from the Dak.

[gijoe]

PX4 had disappeared (almost) by 2001.
In 1999 we were using LLP from the Skyvan. Along with the GQ 360 Low Level Static Line Square.
I say almost because some were retained for the Dakota for a good number of years. They were modified with different length static lines specifically for the Dakota. Good job VX275 had retained an “illegal” copy of the Dak parachuting AP. Some time later, probably 2010. Trials were completed with LLP from the Dak.

Was slated for a Dak lob once. Saturday morning mount from WAD for a dz in Caythorpe in front of some Arnhem vets who were looking forward to the prospect.

...on arrival at WAD the allocated parachutes were mysteriously announced as ‘missing’ and it it was canned.

A total mystery...ATFD on a weekend. ‘Don’t work Saturdays and Sundays’

It was a disgrace and several PJIs/movers will probably never know how close they came to have there noses broken or front teeth impacted. The vets are probably no longer with us.

My view of the PJI elite has remained set as ‘dim’ ever since.