IALPA Recruiting bans on Cathay, why not Ryanair?

[Fr O'Blivien]

PPRuNe banners advertise the IALPA recruiting ban on Cathay Pacific for ditching a few tens of pilots - fair enough.

But shouldn't they also slap a ban on the sickest, nastiest, most cynical, most unfair, most immoral airline practice of this decade that affects hundreds if not thousands of our colleagues who are the most susceptible to blackmail and extortion. Namely the appalling campaign to mulct the unemployed that is being perpetrated by Ryanair?

Someone will no doubt provide accurate details of the shameful sums of money that this dreadful company seeks to extort from those desperate enough to want to join it.

For those unfamiliar with the depths that European aviation has descended to Ryanair are charging job applicants ludicrous sums of money to merely submit a cv without which said cv will not even be looked at (£50 alledged), vastly more (£200?) in addition for interview, yet more again for sim ride, none refudable on employment or rejection. Cost for rejection after going through the entire process several hundred pounds...And this a company that self-righteously spouts it's commitment to lowering fares to the public - on occasion offering them free or for £5 or so! At who's expense, eh?

Are the poor unemployed being used to subsidise these loss-leader fares? It would appear so.

Is this not a case for IALPA to take strong action against a company that is blatantly profiteering from and discriminating against the unemployed?

I sincerely hope that all would be Ryanair applicants think very carefully about what sort of outfit they are joining before they submit to this sort of cynical corporate extortion. Is this the kind of company you really wish to be associated with?

Should the pilot community not stand up against these outrageous liberties and just stop applying to Ryanair?

A recruiting ban on Ryanair. Now! please!



As the late Frank Zappa said, "Remember, there's a difference between leaning forward and bending over!!"

[Flintstone]

Sentiments with which I agree but there is a flaw.

The job situation will have to have to improve markedly before some people can be persuaded to apply to a company from whom you do not have to buy a job.

Loathsome O'Leary and his cronies know this and so will keep these fees in place for as long as they can.

Sad, but true.

[Smokie]

Fr O'Blivien,

It depends on whether you're bending over to pick up your
"zircon encrusted tweezers" or not.;) ;) ;)

[HugMonster]

We offer possibly the shortest time to command of any airline in Europe.= "We have either the least experienced captains in the whole of Europe, or we have the most overworked F/O's - take your pick".

[ac100]

if it is that bad then have the back bone to strike. do not take out your mistakes on up an coming pilots. Most people there took the job because they needed there first airline job or because they were unemployed. So blaming the company for taking advantage of young pilots making bad decisions to get ahead will not get us anywhere. I believe we as pilots have lost all self respect of our professions just to fly a jet.

Cathay Pacific is a perfect example of non thinking pilots union. Let your brothers get fired and rather than going on strike, they let others suffer. This type of behaviour, IMHO, is what is dragging this profession down the toilet. Have the back bone to stand up for what you believe in and bring some respect back into this industry.

Shut the company down and force them to treat you all as professionals and not bus drivers.

Go on STRIKE.

[underread east]

When I started my ATPL training, the future looked fairly rosy. We are all too aware of the effects the horrific events of last september have had, not only on the business as a whole, but also on the prospects of gainful employment.

Nobody will say for a minute that what Ryanair are demanding from its applicants is fair, right, just, moral or whatever, but for those poor souls such as myself who desperately need to do something to revitalise serious sick bank balances, after haemmoraging cash to an FTO, every option needs to be thouroughly considered, however unpalatable.

In an ideal world MOL's policy would be an outrage, but in the current climate, if it gets more of the unemployed of the street and back into the air, then the bullet may have to be bitten. What are the other options? Rock and hard place stuff.

When it comes down to it, Ryanair are recruiting. I can't afford not to take their job, if it is offered.

[HugMonster]

Fine, underread. You're not alone in feeling that. I, however, have more pride than that.

Under no circumstances whatsoever would I apply to FR while MO'L is running it, nor any possible successor who operated in any similar manner.

[ac100]

Underread,

I understand the problem you possessed when faced with a job with a company with a very poor ethic towords it's employees and a bank balance which horrified everyone who knew anything about it.

However you are not the first and will not be the last. I have been in the industry for many years and it takes hard work and determination to achieve your goals. But never for one minute did i pay for employment, allow to be treated like a bus driver or look at my bank balance and work for food. So many young pilots these days have no patients and certainly no pride in themselves.

You and all your colleges are pilots(PROFESSIONALS) Without you an airline cannot exist. Who ever the employer be the time has come to educate the younger pilots and fight for our rights.

Go on strike and hit the company where it hurts, their pockets. It takes pride and a lot of back bone, but come on gentlemen and ladies we all have it.

And if your curious, i work for an operator in the middle east and we are treated the way we should be.

[underread east]

HugMonster : I am not sure if I can afford pride. While I don't agree with what he is demanding, there aren't a lot of options for us lowly low hours proffesionals.

ac100: I am in full agreement that I shouldn't be asked to pay for a type rating, and it is true that without us the airlines would find it hard to fly. I can be patient, be only to a point, my bank manager is unlikely to share my principled stance. With regards to paying for employment - how much was your first bond? The bond to an airline for a first type does represent the airlines investment in you, its asset as a pilot, but please correct me if I am wrong, a proportion of this training cost is taken from your salary over a period of months/years.

As FR seem unwilling to invest in what could potentially be their most valuable asset in keeping its business running smoothly, and most importantly to the bean counters, efficiently, they are surely unable to demand or enforce the loyalty that other carriers do through bonding.

With regards to the effectiveness of strike action, one in my position carries very little clout, and if I take the principled stance and say I don't believe in the recruitment methods employed, believe me, I will be trampled in the stampede of others willing to stump up and get that crucial (first) job

[Meeb]

How about doing some research underread east? There are no airlines in the UK, possibly Europe who take bond money out of your salary. BA do to their Cadets but that is a seperate issue. ac100 and Huggy have explained the ethics to you, looks like you need to learn more about the industry you wish to be part of.

[ac100]

Dear Underread,

I sympathysis wiith your banking problem, as stated before we have all once upon a time been the same situation. However, i will explain something to you that maybe your not aware of. The practice of Bonds has been around for a very short period of time. Started in the USA by the almighty dollar chasing business men who saw that uneducated pilots would do anything to get into a Twin,jet or airline. all these young chaps had no university degrees required by the Major carriers in the USA. To obtain a licence in the USA is a simple matter of finance. If you have the money you will have a licence. That is not true of the european licences. Thus at one time it was consider that if you held a professional pilots licence you were holding post secondary education such as a degree. I was fortune to obtain both.

European pilots are educated individuals and therefore held to higher standards and professionalism,IMHO. Your counterpart in the states with the same amount of hours does not retain as much knowledge as you at this point in both your careers, that's a fact.

But the airline you are currently working for saw young pilots who did not want to climb the ladder as we all did and were willing to pay their way up. I have always tried to explain to young aspiring pilots that your professionalism is in your own hands. Once again MR mO'L is a business man and he will do whatever it takes to make money. So blaming him will not achieve anything.

therefore the logical people to stop the treatment and abuse of PROFESSIONAL pilots is the pilots themselves. If young pilots are willing to destroy a fantastic profession so that they can wear a uniform, screw FA's or any other female for that matter using the "i'm a pilot' line or simply to progress without earning the right. Then you are all responsible for turning it around and improving it because of your bad decisions.

I am not having a go at you underread, but i suggest your fellow flight crew members should read what i have said and build a back bone and respect for what you as individuals have achieved and bring up the respect for this profession. WE ARE NOT BUS DRIVERS and until mr M O'L sees that, he will continue to abuse you all.

Do everyone in the industry proud and stand up for yourselves.

['%MAC']

U be rite ac100, we amerikan pilletts ain’t to shmart. And bewhare inn RVSM eir spac, cus we Yanqees cannt holt alltidude, so wen u r a tosand foots b low bekarful. Whee allso cannt fli strate ithr. Maybe a edukashun wood hellp inn reeding thees hear plakards. Mae b U shuld c this

http://www.delta.com/inside/employment/pilot/index.jsp

Notise ‘post graduate’ edukashun, es dat the ctudi of fences?

[edited for spelling]

[411A]

Hmmm, and here we have (once again) the old issue of FAA vs "European" licenses.
Have met many "Europeans" in the sim who would have great difficulity finding the back end of a horse, let alone an aeroplane.
But, they did have "academic qualifications".
Whoopee:rolleyes:

[HugMonster]

Why would they even try to find you? :confused:

[underread east]

Points taken. I will be the first to admit I have lots to learn about the business, and am happy to listen to any advice politely presented. I am one who normally observes from the sidelines in an effort to glean as much as I can about this business from those who are more experienced than I, so please excuse any ignorance I might display.

I merely wished to present the point that while MOLs policies may not be palatable, any newby would be foolish not to consider ALL of the options that are available even if the FR 'deal' is not taken up for moral or financial reasons or whatever.

For the record I don't fly for FR, I am still pondering whether or not this is for me.

[Flintstone]

underread

Believe me I appreciate the position you now find yourself to be in. Been there myself.

Just remember that whatever your decision you will have to live with it for the rest of your career in a very closed industry.

Don't sell yourself short.

[CAVU]

ac100- I must say, the irony of your statement is deliciously funny; In one sentence claim to be educated and in the next, that US airline pilots aren't. Clearly, your education didn't endow you with the sense to limit your commentary to topics on which you are knowledgeable. For your reference; the education level of US pilots isn’t one of them.

Fr O’Blivien- HERE, HERE. Surely, there can be little sympathy for individuals who find themselves out of pocket with Ryanair or anyone else who "pays for training", reasonable training bonds notwithstanding. It is a selfish practice which reveals the short sightedness and overall lack of thought/regard for the profession that is patent in anyone who does it.

Not only should IFALPA instigate ban on applications to Ryanair, but it also should punish those who apply/ are hired and damage career quality for everyone else in the process. If this policy could be applied consistently, and as a profession we had the integrity to enforce it, the benefits would be significant. Unfortunately, unless World wide APAs win "hearts and minds" and recruit newly licensed professional pilots, this is unlikely to happen.

Gibbering ranting of “I need/ed a job” tediously expected.

[ac100]

CAVU- Firstly if you all read my post carefully, you would have seen that i mentioned that USA major airlines require a Degree as a entrance level requirement. If i am wrong on this fact please correct me. Therefore that would indicate, would it not, that my fellow major airline pilots are educated individuals?

This then leads to the fact that pilots flying with carriers that do not require a degree, Pay a lot less and do not have the benefits that the major US airlines have. If anyone flying for JetBlue would post and tell me that they would turn down a job at United Airlines, i'll shut up.

Read the post carefully Ladies and gentlemen. We are are own enemies. This is not an attack on US pilots. It's about the the truth. Unfortunately, once again, rather than announce that we are to blame we start attacking are fellow pilots.

If anyone from the US who is not flying for a MAJOR AIRLINE can tell me that they would rather stay where they are and not earn the money, pension or schedule that the United or American airlines offer, with all qualifications required by the airlines met, then i will shut up. So please read and rather then getting offened and realise what i am saying. There was no disrespect intended. As i have said, WE are all professionals and we should start acting like it.

Underread- As for your pending issues and problems. As others have said, have some self respect and i know you do. You have been through a challenaging time with your licence and you should be rewarded for it. I hope you and other young pilots start to challenage this trend of lowering the professionalism of this profession. The industry seems to be picking up and airlines will start hiring low time individuals.

As for my USA counterparts, well if any of you really believe that i am wrong in regards to the requirements set by your own major airlines, Please Post. But i think you will find that there is a reason to why they require a degree. Once again, NO DISRESPECT INTENDED, but please take a closer look at how airlines in the USA decide who they hire and why. You will find that it is the same practice used by the legal profession....selective entrance...it is very hard to get into law school in most countries and therefore the price tab for a lawyers services are very high. Just like a captain with 25 years seniority at Untied airlines.

SAFE FLYING TO ALL> CHEERS.
AC100.